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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009BrE: games
Hello: 1. "He had not colours?" Did students wear any distinctive signs, indicative of academic performance or association with a form, group, etc? 2. "Games," is this BrE for "sports?" I don't think it means "matches?" 3. "Rigger," is this "gear," or simply "(rowing) boat?" ------ [Widmerpool is a strange boy at this public school in England in the 20s] ... Widmerpool moved on his heels out of the mist. His status was not high. He had no colours, and although far from being a dunce, there was nothing notable about his work. At this or any other time of year he could be seen training for any games that were in season: in winter solitary running, with or without a football: in summer, rowing 'courses' on the river, breathing heavily, the sweat clouding his thick lenses, while he dragged his rigger through the water. A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 6 ------  SignatureThanks. Marius Hancu >Hello: > >1. "He had not colours?" Did students wear any distinctive signs, >indicative of academic performance or association with a form, group, etc? "Colours" in a school context denotes selection for the school team in some sport. >2. "Games," is this BrE for "sports?" I don't think it means "matches?" It's sports. >3. "Rigger," is this "gear," or simply "(rowing) boat?" Short for "outrigger", this is a kind of rowing boat. >------ >[Widmerpool is a strange boy at this public school in England in the 20s] [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 6 SignatureJames >>Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "Colours" in a school context denotes selection for the school team in > some sport. Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' q.v. > At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) Oooh, Oxbridge pride in evidence? There are *other* universities, you know. Some of those in Scotland have been around longer than those two in the Home Counties. Even my own place of learning has been in existence for a couple of hundred years. Unless amongst "the Universities" you don't include those pesky industrial colleges in the north of England. SignatureDavid >> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' >> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) > > Oooh, Oxbridge pride in evidence? Hence the capital 'U' <vbg>. Not pride, I went to a 'redbrick' in North Wales, just realism when it comes to hundred-year-old literature. Blue is also used at Eton and Harrow, I found on looking in Chamber's. > >> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' > >> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hence the capital 'U' <vbg>. Not pride, I went to a 'redbrick' in > North Wales, I make that a shortlist of one. DC -- >>>> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' >>>> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I make that a shortlist of one. Bang on. Although being an adoptive Mancunian pedant and having spent four years in two of the red brick buildings at one of the "real" redbricks, I don't recognise that there are any redbricks at all in North Wales. SignatureDavid > > > > > Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half > > > > > colours' q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "real" redbricks, I don't recognise that there are any redbricks at > all in North Wales. The Peel Building at S****** (big Victorian pile next to the museum as you go down The Crescent) is about as red brick an example of a red brick building as they come, though I'm not sure S****** qualifies as a Redbrick. I did my masters at Manc, which contrasts with my first degree at Middlesex, which, despite having quite a few red brick buildings, I think qualifies as a no-bricks-at-all. DC -- >> > > > > Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half >> > > > > colours' q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Middlesex, which, despite having quite a few red brick buildings, I >think qualifies as a no-bricks-at-all. Another non-red-brick university with lots of red-brick buildings is Cambridge. SignatureJames > > > > > Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half > > > > > colours' q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bang on. Yes, indeed. I'm reminded of an episode of ISIHAC from North Wales in which Humph told us that the kindly old archivist was planning to take Samantha to Caernarvon and Bangor. DC -- >>>>>> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half >>>>>> colours' q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > which Humph told us that the kindly old archivist was planning to take > Samantha to Caernarvon and Bangor. It's older than that, I think. I remember when I was travelling with a girl through North Wales to Bangor. For example. SignatureDavid > > > > > > > Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half > > > > > > > colours' q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It's older than that, I think. I remember when I was travelling with > a girl through North Wales to Bangor. For example. Well, we've all done _that_ ! -- [snip] > Yes, indeed. I'm reminded of an episode of ISIHAC from North Wales in > which Humph told us that the kindly old archivist was planning to take > Samantha to Caernarvon and Bangor. Full quote: To take Samantha to Caernarvon and Bangor in the back of his van. With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Now happily retired. Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Full quote: To take Samantha to Caernarvon and Bangor in the back of > his van. I knew there was a van involved there somewhere! DC -- >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I knew there was a van involved there somewhere! But <slightly uncertain, but still lewd, pedantry alert> you have to go to Northern Ireland to Bangor without pronouncing the g. SignatureMike. >>> [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >But <slightly uncertain, but still lewd, pedantry alert> you have to go >to Northern Ireland to Bangor without pronouncing the g. Some locals to spot and sound the g in Bangor, Northern Ireland. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > But <slightly uncertain, but still lewd, pedantry alert> you have to go > to Northern Ireland to Bangor without pronouncing the g. <even more pedantic> But people in the Northern half of England do pronounce a "g" in the middle of a word. Our erstwhile departmental secretary enjoyed singing in a local choir, and she always said "sing-ging", I'm sure she would have said Bang-gor too. And I think she would have pronounced Bangor as "bang-her", if she was a lot lewder than she in fact was. With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Now happily retired. Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk >>>> [snip] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > With best wishes, I'm one of those. It causes great hilarity in my southern friends (but not as much as the way I say "look in a cook book" does). SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>>> [snip] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >> With best wishes, > I'm one of those. It causes great hilarity in my southern friends (but > not as much as the way I say "look in a cook book" does). And long live these regional variations! With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Now happily retired. Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk Nick filted: >I'm one of those. It causes great hilarity in my southern friends (but >not as much as the way I say "look in a cook book" does). Is this like the way we made fun of one of my high-school classmates, from Baltimore, because of how he said "floating boats"?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > > >> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' > > >> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > DC > -- Liverpool is not in N Wales!! > > > >> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half > > > colours' >> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Liverpool is not in N Wales!! Good call. DC -- >>> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' >>> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Wales, just realism when it comes to hundred-year-old literature. Blue is >also used at Eton and Harrow, I found on looking in Chamber's. If you mean this one, it was grey in appearance when I first saw it (early 1940s): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:University_from_Bangor_Mountain.JPG It seems to have grown some additional buildings in various colours. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' >>>> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It seems to have grown some additional buildings in various colours. Hence the inverted commas :) When I was there the building on the hill was all arts and humanities. Sciences happened in redbrick or glass/ concrete buildings like those below in the picture. >>> Regular selection, I think: hence 'full colours' and 'half colours' >>> q.v. At the Universities it's a 'blue' (noun q.v.) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wales, just realism when it comes to hundred-year-old literature. Blue is > also used at Eton and Harrow... I think you mean "also used at Oxford and Cambridge". Light and dark blue respectively were used by Eton and Harrow before their adoption by the Universities. However, the expression "a blue" is not used in the same sense - at least, not at Harrow. I'm not sure about Eton. Regards Jonathan > 1. "He had not colours?" Did students wear any distinctive signs, > indicative of academic performance or association with a form, group, etc? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 6 General: English boarding schools for the upper classes required "games" viz. compulsory sports exercise every weekday. "Colours" were a distinction awarded to a few boys judged notably good at some sport (e.g. rugby, soccer, cricket). This conferred social prestige, sometimes displayed by distinctive clothing (a cap, tie, blazer etc.) that only holders of colours were allowed to wear. My only school photo from this period shows 50-odd boys all in their grey Sunday suits except for one wearing cricketing whites -- because he held "school colours" for this sport. This was the top rank of honour, usually preceded by "house colours," a lesser distinction. An outrigger is part of a rowing boat specially built for racing. Such boats are built as narrow as possible, for speed. This requires that the pivot of the oar be far beyond the gunwales, so as to provide effective leverage for the (long) oar. Oarlocks are held about 18 inches outside the boat by a light but strong metal frame. It looks as if "rigger" may have been local school jargon for the boat itself. My school required apprenticeship in what we called a tub, a slow and heavy boat with places for 8 or 10 rowers, and novices had to record X hours in the tub before they were allowed to get into a genuine racing boat, for 1, 2, 4 or 8 rowers. Perhaps Windermere's rigger was a tub. You can tell Windermere was no good at sports, not picked for any football team thus obliged in winter to run a cross-country circuit (alone.) Football easily met the requirement for compulsory sports at schools of this type, because any number of games may be played simultaneously, if your playing field is big enough (20 acres at my school) and football is played in the autumn, winter and spring. Only cricket is played in summer, and this does not efficiently exercise all the boys all the time (and some boys dislike cricket.) For this reason (and because of the tradition of rowing at Oxford and Cambridge) rowing was the main alternatiive summer sport, at those schools with suitable water nearby. the require Many of these schools taught ro that holds the oarlock. > > 1. "He had not colours?" Did students wear any distinctive signs, > > indicative of academic performance or association with a form, group, [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > summer sport, at those schools with suitable water > nearby Thank you all. Marius Hancu >"Colours" were a distinction awarded to a few boys judged >notably good at some sport (e.g. rugby, soccer, cricket). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"school colours" for this sport. This was the top rank of honour, >usually preceded by "house colours," a lesser distinction. I've always wondered if there is a physical "blue" worn or possessed by someone who has been awarded a blue. Wiki mentions that those so honored are entitled to wear a special blazer, but I doubt if students in this age go in for that. Perhaps so, though. Is there a ceremony of sorts where the athletes are handed something? There's nothing of this sort in US universities that I know of. No tangible evidence to be worn, carried, or possessed that indicates that they excelled in a sport. They do get rings if they are on a team that participates in a bowl game, but nothing for merely participating. (Unless you count cars, money, and other under-the-table favors) In US high schools, athletes are awarded "letters" at an athlete recognition day during the school year. The image at http://annkroeker.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/letter-jacket-alone.jpg shows a jacket with a high school letter. The letter itself is given to the athlete, but the athlete purchases a jacket or sweater and sews the letter on. (The letter will be the first letter of the high school's name or a combination of letters if the high school has a multiple word name. It will be in the school's colors.) SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Tony Cooper: > In US high schools, athletes are awarded "letters" at an athlete > recognition day during the school year. The image at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > school's name or a combination of letters if the high school has a > multiple word name. It will be in the school's colors.) My high school (in Canada) also did something like this, but with a slight difference from the way Tony describes it. The same athlete could be awarded a letter more than once, in successive years, and *different* initials from the school's name -- John F. Ross CVI -- were used successively. If I remember rightly, the first letter awarded was a large R, the second one was a small capital J, and the third one was a small capital F (like those road signs they used to make that said things like "Children SLOW Crossing"). I don't remember whether the letters were adjudicated in some way or automatically went to whoever made the school teams in whatever sports. (As I've explained before, CVI here does not mean 106 but stands for "Collegiate-Vocational Institute". The "Vocational" basically means that they offered 2-year programs, ending with grade 10, for those intending to take the minimum permissible schooling and then go into a trade; "Collegiate" referred to the normal 4- and 5-year courses, ending with grade 12 or 13, depending on whether you planned to attend university or not.) SignatureMark Brader "Actually, $150, to an educational institution, Toronto turns out to be about the same as a lower amount." msb@vex.net -- Mark Horton My text in this article is in the public domain. >I've always wondered if there is a physical "blue" worn or possessed >by someone who has been awarded a blue. Wiki mentions that those so >honored are entitled to wear a special blazer, but I doubt if students >in this age go in for that. Perhaps so, though. I played in a croquet league match on Saturday. It was my village team against Oxford University. My OUCC opponent was determined to get his blue this year (as he had been last year - I was paired with the same opponent). I had the impression -- I should have asked him (as I should also have remembered what to look for in the Eagle and Child, at the obligatory post-match pint afterwards, in connection with the Inklings testimonial to the landlord's ham) -- that it was not enough, in croquet at least, just to be selected and to play against Cambridge in the Varsity match, but also to be of a high enough standard. He needed to get his official handicap down a little more. I think this additional qualification was introduced for lesser sports with few active participants because in some years there is no competition for places at all and a scratch team might need to be got up, for some of whose members a blue would be improper reward. Rules for blues are determined by a blues committee. I picked out this curious one from the Women's Blues Committee page dealing with the criteria for a rifle shooting full or half blue: 8 awards maximum, awarded to women scoring over 190/200 points in the women's Varsity Match OR who fire on the OURC 1st Team in the Varsity Match. I always did prefer being in the team, not on it. Having a blue or half-blue entitles the holder to wear special garments that signal the fact. I bought the tie. I couldn't afford the OURC half-blue blazer, current price GBP 400: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oxford-half-blue-blazer.jpg> Years later my wife bought me a half-blue sweater with appropriate embroidery (including OURC, to point out the sport) which I wear for croquet. >Is there a ceremony of sorts where the athletes are handed something? Not in my day. If there is anything nowadays, it might be at the corresponding university sports club's annual dinner. We used to dine with the Cambridge team after the matches, when half-blue blazer and white flannels were worn, if possessed, instead of a dinner jacket for evening dress. But there were no formal ceremonies then, as they were dress-up-but-let-your-hair-down occasions, and not everyone remained conscious all evening. The OURC dinner is held at the start of the following academic year so many of the blues would no longer be in residence (though they might return -- I still get invited, but don't go -- Marius may yet ask about reunion dinners when he gets there in his book). SignaturePaul Rambled enough [...] > Rules for blues are determined by a blues committee. I picked out > this curious one from the Women's Blues Committee page dealing with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in the Varsity Match. > I always did prefer being in the team, not on it. And even a woman might have expected rather more than a blue in return for firing on it. [...] SignatureMike. ... > Rules for blues are determined by a blues committee. I picked out this > curious one from the Women's Blues Committee page dealing with the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the Varsity Match. > I always did prefer being in the team, not on it. Being "in" the team isn't an option on these shores. > Having a blue or half-blue entitles the holder to wear special garments > that signal the fact. I bought the tie. I couldn't afford the OURC [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > embroidery (including OURC, to point out the sport) which I wear for > croquet. ... Rugby, rowing, rifle? -- Jerry Friedman jerry_friedman@yahoo.com wrote, in <2b2e0bee-d9b8-47e1-8e0f-a3bfdac215f8@y34g2000prb.googlegroups.com> on Tue, 5 May 2009 14:07:49 -0700 (PDT): > ... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Rugby, rowing, rifle? Roulette? SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >On May 5, 9:19 am, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Rugby, rowing, rifle? OURFC: Oxford University Rugby Football Club OUBC: Oxford University Boat Club OURC: Oxford University Rifle Club. SignaturePaul > jerry_fried...@yahoo.com wrote>On May 5, 9:19 am, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > OUBC: Oxford University Boat Club > OURC: Oxford University Rifle Club. I should have figured out that the the rugby club would have an F in the name, but I never would have guessed "Boat Club" (even though some part of my mind knows they're "Boat Races"). -- Jerry Friedman tony cooper filted: >In US high schools, athletes are awarded "letters" at an athlete >recognition day during the school year. The image at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >school's name or a combination of letters if the high school has a >multiple word name. It will be in the school's colors.) Nice one-two combination about that in an episode of "All in the Family"...Edith, Mike and Gloria are going through a box of Archie's keepsakes and find a jacket with a big "F" on it: Mike: "He kept his grades?" Edith: "No, the F stands for 'Flushing'." Mike: "Oh, so *that's* what he majored in." ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > I've always wondered if there is a physical "blue" worn or possessed > by someone who has been awarded a blue. Wiki mentions that those so > honored are entitled to wear a special blazer, but I doubt if students > in this age go in for that. Perhaps so, though. > > Is there a ceremony of sorts where the athletes are handed something? "Blue" is Oxford and Cambridge nomenclature, and simply means a member of the top team that represents the university in a particular sport. Oxonians are Dark Blues and Cantabs Light Blues because those are the two universities' official colours. I do not think there was any particular ceremony. The team was simply announced, for rugby or tennis or boxing etc., and all team members were ipso facto blues. There was probably a special tie, perhaps a different one for each sport, cf. the British custom of discreetly parading one's affiliation (school tie, house tie, old school tie, regimental tie, club tie etc.) A special honour for rowers at Oxford and Cambridge was that they could keep as a souvenir the oar they had actually used, usually ornamented with sundry victories painted on the blade, and hung over the family fireplace for the next 50 years. (I forget whether ours was won by Uncle Jack or Uncle Chris.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > [ ... ] > Only cricket is played in > summer, and this does not efficiently exercise all the > boys all the time (and some boys dislike cricket.) Indeed, and that's the only reason I chose to do rowing, which at least had the merit of not being cricket. > For > this reason (and because of the tradition of rowing at > Oxford and Cambridge) rowing was the main alternatiive > summer sport, at those schools with suitable water > nearby. Signatureathel >> [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Indeed, and that's the only reason I chose to do rowing, which at least > had the merit of not being cricket. In the winter I played rugby, which had the merit of not being football. I liked cricket because I could sit and watch the grass grow for half the time. SignatureDavid >>> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >In the winter I played rugby, which had the merit of not being football. At our school, football *was* rugby. There was no organised soccer at all. > I liked cricket because I could sit and watch the grass grow for half >the time. So much more positive than watching paint dry. SignatureJames >>> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >football. I liked cricket because I could sit and watch the grass grow >for half the time. At one school I attended, our summer game was swimming in the sea, and to regular amazement, the tide was often out, which meant that teacher and pupils could skive off for the whole afternoon. SignatureJohn Ritson > In the winter I played rugby, which had the merit of not being football. > Oh, if only we had been given the option of playing football (which had, and indeed still has, the merit of not being rugby). But my (state grammar) school's headmaster was determined to pretend we were a [BrE usage] public school. Some of the more sports-capable 6th formers petitioned him to allow them to start a football team - most of them would have happily played rugby as well, perhaps on alternate weeks. But no. "WE don't play soccer - this is a RUGBY school" he bellowed.The result? They all quit the rugby team and formed a football team to play in a local parks league. School gave me a hatred for rugby that persists to this day. Mike M >> In the winter I played rugby, which had the merit of not being football. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > School gave me a hatred for rugby that persists to this day. Don't get me wrong: I hate most team sports. But I hate rugby slightly less than I hate football. SignatureDavid > >> In the winter I played rugby, which had the merit of not being football. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Don't get me wrong: I hate most team sports. But I hate rugby slightly > less than I hate football. I very much like football. I often wonder if this is actually _because_ it was denied me as a teenager. I did play occasionally after leaving school, and (although I enjoyed it) I was an utterly useless player. It's quite possible that if I'd been forced to suffer the same degree of ridicule, contempt and bullying from games teachers and "jocks" on the football pitch, I may have ended up hating it just as much as rugby. However, I suspect that there was an element of class consciousness involved as well; as a working-class boy in what was to me a relatively "posh" school, I felt more than a little alienated by the hearty middle-class networking that seemed to lie behind rugby union, and felt far more comfortable with the workingman's game. Mike M >>> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I liked cricket because I could sit and watch the grass grow for half >the time. It was difficult to slope off from games at my school because the playing fields were entirely surrounded by school buildings and fences, so I became a cricket scorer. This was safer than being on the receiving end of hard balls thrown with GBH in mind. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England |
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