 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Where have all the speech marks gone?
Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct speech is dying out? I'm currently reading "God's Own Country" by Ross Raisin, and jolly good it is too, but it's not the first contemporary novel that I'm struggling with on account of having to decode the text to work out when the speaking ends and the narrative begins. Is it cost-cutting, or are inverted commas now inexplicably uncool? Will. > Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using > inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > begins. Is it cost-cutting, or are inverted commas now inexplicably > uncool? If it was cost cutting, they'd leave the words out as well. O a leas th las lette o ever wor. > If it was cost cutting, they'd leave the words out as well. Ty wil start wit te silnt letrs n sonds tat tak to letrs ec t rit.  SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Let us knot coin gnu werds huitch msb@vex.net are spelld rong." -- Rik Fischer Smoody > Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using > inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > begins. Is it cost-cutting, or are inverted commas now inexplicably > uncool? <Bug-eyed-hobby-horse alert, ear-steaming level.> It's the pernicious influence of designers: they hate punctuation and capital letters, which seem entirely pointless to a bunch of illiterates. The mark of a culture in which what you look like is more important than what you are. SignatureMike. > > Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using > > inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > seem entirely pointless to a bunch of illiterates. The mark of a culture > in which what you look like is more important than what you are. Harrumphing right along with you. Signature"All of life's riddles are answered in the movies." - Steve Martin >> Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using >> inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > seem entirely pointless to a bunch of illiterates. The mark of a culture > in which what you look like is more important than what you are. How right you are. However, I'm not sure that the practice is entirely new. I have the recollection that Alan Paton's "Cry the Beloved Country" was printed that way many years ago. Or maybe it used little dashes as the French sometimes do. (The rules, if they exist, that French typesetters follow in deciding whether to use guillemets, English-style quotation marks, little dashes, or wrong-way-round guillemets remain a complete mystery to me.) Signatureathel >>> Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using >>> inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >recollection that Alan Paton's "Cry the Beloved Country" was printed >that way many years ago. Roddy Doyle's books are written in that style. Love the books. Hate the style. (The Commitments, The Snapper, The Van, etc) SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [ ... ] > Roddy Doyle's books are written in that style. Love the books. Hate > the style. > > (The Commitments, The Snapper, The Van, etc) A whole book on digital photography? No wonder you loved it. SignatureBob Lieblich I take one day off ... On May 6, 9:11 am, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote: > billri...@hotmail.com wrote: > > Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > seem entirely pointless to a bunch of illiterates. The mark of a culture > in which what you look like is more important than what you are. I'm jouncing and steaming right along with you. For some people, written words are the key with which Shakespeare unlocked his heart. For others, they're type. Of course, you and I are undoubtedly design illiterates (indesignates?) and don't see /why/ punctuation is such a solecism. -- Jerry Friedman On 6 May, 09:28, billri...@hotmail.com wrote: > Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using > inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > begins. Is it cost-cutting, or are inverted commas now inexplicably > uncool? I blame Cormac McCarthy. Mike M > On 6 May, 09:28, billri...@hotmail.com wrote: >> Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I blame Cormac McCarthy. It pre-dates him: --start quotation-- Tell me this, did you press my Sunday trousers? I forgot, I said. What? I forgot, I shouted. Well that is very nice, he called, very nice indeed. Oh trust you to forget. God look down on us and pity us this night and day. Will you forget again today? No, I answered. --end quotation-- that was published in 1939. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Swim_Two_Birds SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > > On 6 May, 09:28, billri...@hotmail.com wrote: > >> Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Swim_Two_Birds Aha, the antedating game. "Well yes said our nurse barshfully." Ring Lardner, Jr., /The Young Immigrunts/ (1920) http://books.google.com/books?id=hagDjkJiN-AC&printsec=frontcover&ei=9BcCStLAMIb gkQTHj_GlBA#PPA17,M1 The author of this book is supposed to be four years old, and he doesn't seem to use any punctuation but periods. I think other Lardner narrators skipped the quotation marks too. "Shut up, he explained." There must be a way to blame James Joyce. -- Jerry Friedman >> On 6 May, 09:28, billri...@hotmail.com wrote: >>> Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Swim_Two_Birds It goes back a fair bit further than that. Looking at a 1742 edition of _Pamela_, none of the dialogue apears to have quotation marks, e.g., A Bleffing, faid the dear Gentleman, upon my Charmer's benevolent Heart!---I will leave every thing to your Difcretion, my Dear!---Do all the good you prudently can to your Mrs. _Jervis_. (The dashes appear to be three separate characters rather than a single long dash.) There are no quotation marks in editions from 1776, 1785, and 1786. But they show up in 1810 and 1816 editions, but they're gone again in an 1824 edition. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Does anyone have any idea why, in modern novels, the practice of using > inverted commas (aka "quotes" or "speech marks") to denote direct [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > begins. Is it cost-cutting, or are inverted commas now inexplicably > uncool? I wouldn't mind so much if they consistently left them out, but what I find in a number of books today is misplaced quotation marks, which makes it even harder to figure out. On the other hand, I really detest the tradition whereby a new paragraph by the same speaker apparently has to begin with a new set of inverted commas. It's fine where there's only one speaker, but with two or more, you quickly lose track of who's speaking. SignatureRob Bannister [ ... ] > On the other hand, I really detest the tradition whereby a new paragraph > by the same speaker apparently has to begin with a new set of inverted > commas. It's fine where there's only one speaker, but with two or more, > you quickly lose track of who's speaking. I disagree about those opening quotation marks (aka "inverted commas"). Find yourself a blog (many of which fit the following description) in which quotations are not indented and there are no quotation marks at the start of new paragraphs of the quotation. It takes only a couple of paragraphs of that sort for the reader (well, me, anyway) to lose track of whether he's in the middle of the quotation or the quotation has already ended and he missed it. The mark at the start of each new paragraph, in combination with the lack of a mark at the end of the preceding one, indisputably signals that the new paragraph is part of the quoted matter. Even in snappy dialogue the convention works. If confused about the purpose of the mark at the start of a paragraph in such dialogue, take a look at the end of the preceding paragraph. Works like a charm. In short, I find this a very useful convention, and when the vote on whether to continue using it is taken I intend to vote Aye. SignatureBob Lieblich So there! > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > In short, I find this a very useful convention, and when the vote on > whether to continue using it is taken I intend to vote Aye. I would prefer indentation. I always lose track of who's speaking in dialogues where a speaker has more than one paragraph. SignatureRob Bannister > On the other hand, I really detest the tradition whereby a new paragraph > by the same speaker apparently has to begin with a new set of inverted > commas. It's fine where there's only one speaker, but with two or more, > you quickly lose track of who's speaking. Each paragraph in an extended qhotation begins with quotation marks but only the last paragraph of the quotation has close quotation marks. There is no ambiguity. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> On the other hand, I really detest the tradition whereby a new paragraph >> by the same speaker apparently has to begin with a new set of inverted [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > but only the last paragraph of the quotation has close quotation > marks. There is no ambiguity. Looking at old books on Google Books, I've noticed that the old convention (or at least an old convention) apparently was that every *line* of quotation began with an opening quotation mark, with a single closing mark at the end. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Bullwinkle: You sure that's the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | only way? Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Rocky: Well, if you're going to be | a hero, you've got to do kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | stupid things every once in (650)857-7572 | a while. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.