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R H Draney - 08 May 2009 21:12 GMT
At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
"Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint Eastwood...over the
course of nearly 2½ hours, I noticed two glaring instances of what I think my be
linguistic anachronisms:

1)  In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and a sandwich
"in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected to read "in the icebox"?

2)  In 1930, someone observes that this is the first time a woman has been
allowed to visit "a serial killer" on death row at San Quentin prison.  Would
even the police, or crime reporters, be using that expression at such an early
date?  (It sticks in my mind that such people would have been called "spree
killers" or the like.)

....r

[1] We're roughly the same age and grew up in southern California.  I asked her
if she had ever heard of the St Francis Dam disaster of 1928, and the
conversation drifted into movies set in early-20th-century LA.

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Raymond O'Hara - 08 May 2009 21:23 GMT
> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
> "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> if she had ever heard of the St Francis Dam disaster of 1928, and the
> conversation drifted into movies set in early-20th-century LA.

Had she heard of the St Francis Dam collapse?
R H Draney - 09 May 2009 02:08 GMT
Raymond O'Hara filted:

>> [1] We're roughly the same age and grew up in southern California.  I
>> asked her
>> if she had ever heard of the St Francis Dam disaster of 1928, and the
>> conversation drifted into movies set in early-20th-century LA.
>
>Had she heard of the St Francis Dam collapse?

Nope...I wouldn't have heard of it either, except that I found the site a couple
of years back while poking around Google Earth....r

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James Hogg - 08 May 2009 21:38 GMT
>At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
>"Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint Eastwood...over the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>1)  In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and a sandwich
>"in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected to read "in the icebox"?

This one must be OK. The OED has this from 1926: "E. F. SPANNER
Broken Trident xvi. 181 Best part of our stuff here is chilled,
and with no 'frig plant working, the mercury will climb like a
rocket."

Interesting spelling of the abbreviation.

>2)  In 1930, someone observes that this is the first time a woman has been
>allowed to visit "a serial killer" on death row at San Quentin prison.  Would
>even the police, or crime reporters, be using that expression at such an early
>date?  (It sticks in my mind that such people would have been called "spree
>killers" or the like.)

This one is not OK. The OED has no quotation for "serial killer"
earllier than 1981, but a "serial murderer" from 1961. Wiki says:
"Coinage of the English term serial killer is commonly attributed
to former FBI Special Agent Robert Ressler in the 1970s."

OED defines "spree killer" as "a person who kills in a frenzied,
random, apparently unpremeditated manner with no obvious motive;
spec. one who kills a number of people at one particular time and
location in this manner", first quotation from 1983.

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Wood Avens - 08 May 2009 21:59 GMT
>>At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
>>"Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint Eastwood...over the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Interesting spelling of the abbreviation.

To me it's precisely the spelling which seems anachronistic.  'Frig
was how I remember it being spelt in my childhood (rather more recent
than 1928).

Reminds me of reading Sarah Waters' splendid The Night Watch, set in
the 1940s, and being brought up short by "teenager".  I'd probably
have passed over "teen-ager" without a second thought.  Then again,
that was the only infelicity I noticed in 500 pages.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 May 2009 02:39 GMT
> Reminds me of reading Sarah Waters' splendid The Night Watch, set in
> the 1940s, and being brought up short by "teenager".  I'd probably
> have passed over "teen-ager" without a second thought.

And you would have been right.  The OED cites "teen-ager" to 1941.
Google Books says it's older:

   [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating]

   Certainly it cannot be done by talking to 'teen-agers [sic] of the
   wisdom saving for their declining years; they have no intention of
   growing old in that unpleasant fashion.

                   YWCA, _The Association Monthly_, December, 1920

   I am going to give my "supposing" friends a chance at this book.
   Your "teen ager" will like it, too.

                   _The Oberlin Alumni Magazine_, December, 1922

The OED doesn't cite "teenager" until 1960.  Again, it appears to be
older, indeed, old enough to be found in the '40s.

   Webster also set the teenagers' band, featured weekly on Hoagy
  Carmichael's NBC commercial, for summer season at Mirabel Park,
  Russian River, in Northern California.

                   _The Billboard_, May 18, 1946

   ... the rolls [sic] of Mr. and Mrs. Meek, played by Forrest Lewis
   and Fran Allison, were not as attractive as the teenager roles,
   played by Beryl Vaughn and Mary Frances Desmond.

                   _The Billboard_, November 22, 1947

_Billboard_ appears to have changed from "teen-ager" to "teenager"
between March 2nd and May 18th, 1946.

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Wood Avens - 09 May 2009 10:41 GMT
>> Reminds me of reading Sarah Waters' splendid The Night Watch, set in
>> the 1940s, and being brought up short by "teenager".  I'd probably
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>_Billboard_ appears to have changed from "teen-ager" to "teenager"
>between March 2nd and May 18th, 1946.

Yes to all that, which is why it felt wrong for someone to think in
that spelling in England in 1947.

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Lars - 10 May 2009 23:29 GMT
>To me it's precisely the spelling which seems anachronistic.  'Frig
>was how I remember it being spelt in my childhood (rather more
>recent than 1928).

Spelt?

Lars
Stockholm
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 11 May 2009 00:12 GMT
>>To me it's precisely the spelling which seems anachronistic.  'Frig
>>was how I remember it being spelt in my childhood (rather more
>>recent than 1928).
>
>Spelt?

Yes. It is the past and past participle of "spell". It is a chiefly
British alternative to "spelled".

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Steve Hayes - 11 May 2009 08:09 GMT
>>To me it's precisely the spelling which seems anachronistic.  'Frig
>>was how I remember it being spelt in my childhood (rather more
>>recent than 1928).
>
>Spelt?

Past tense of "spell".

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John Kane - 11 May 2009 15:56 GMT
> >To me it's precisely the spelling which seems anachronistic.  'Frig
> >was how I remember it being spelt in my childhood (rather more
> >recent than 1928).
>
> Spelt?

Normal spelling of the past tense of spell in most of the
Commonwealth.  Spelled seems wrong to me on first sight.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 May 2009 22:13 GMT
>>At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
>>"Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint Eastwood...over the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>and with no 'frig plant working, the mercury will climb like a
>rocket."

I wonder. "'frig plant" is presumably an abbreviation of "refrigeration
plant" which suggests to me an installation in commercial or industrial
premises rather than a domestic unit.

However, OED does quote:

   1841 C. CIST Cincinnati in 1841 (Advt.), Refrigerators or Ice
   Chests.

   1861 WYNTER Soc. Bees{1} 192 Every man who possesses a refrigerator
   has the power of arresting for a time the natural decay of animal
   and vegetable substances.

Neither of which proves that "refrigerator", however abbreviated, was
the term in common use in 1928.

{1} _Our social bees; or pictures of town and country life 1861_

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Raymond O'Hara - 08 May 2009 22:50 GMT
>>At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
>>"Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> spec. one who kills a number of people at one particular time and
> location in this manner", first quotation from 1983.

Didn't the concept of serial/spree killer come in with Charlie Starkweather
in the late 50s?
R H Draney - 09 May 2009 02:06 GMT
Raymond O'Hara filted:

>>>1)  In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and a
>>>sandwich
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> Interesting spelling of the abbreviation.

I went back and checked the DVD; that's how it's spelled in the "SDH" (Subtitles
for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing)...oddly, while the caption reads "There's milk
and a sandwich in the fridge", Jolie leaves out the word "a"...wonder if she's
any kin to Neil Armstrong....

>>>2)  In 1930, someone observes that this is the first time a woman has been
>>>allowed to visit "a serial killer" on death row at San Quentin prison.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Didn't the concept of serial/spree killer come in with Charlie Starkweather
>in the late 50s?

I would have guessed Albert DeSalvo, but you're probably right...it's the actual
term that threw me....r

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Pat Durkin - 09 May 2009 02:56 GMT
> Raymond O'Hara filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> I would have guessed Albert DeSalvo, but you're probably right...it's
> the actual term that threw me....r

I wonder if "thrill killer(s)" actually was used in the 1920's.  I have
it in mind that Leopold and Loeb were referred to by that term.  Only
one murder, of course, but it was rich kids who did it, with no money to
gain.  I mean, they didn't intend to write a novel and make a fortune.
No ransom request.
Fred - 08 May 2009 22:24 GMT
> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
> "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected to read "in the
> icebox"?

When I was a yong fella' we used to keep milk in a thing called the safe.
There was certainly no icebox or ice in the house.

> 2)  In 1930, someone observes that this is the first time a woman has been
> allowed to visit "a serial killer" on death row at San Quentin prison.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> if she had ever heard of the St Francis Dam disaster of 1928, and the
> conversation drifted into movies set in early-20th-century LA.
Raymond O'Hara - 08 May 2009 22:52 GMT
>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the
>> movie
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> When I was a yong fella' we used to keep milk in a thing called the safe.
> There was certainly no icebox or ice in the house.

How old are you?
Fred - 08 May 2009 23:21 GMT
>>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the
>>> movie
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> How old are you?

Born1948.
Skitt - 09 May 2009 19:54 GMT
>>>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched
>>>> the movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>>
> Born1948.

Still a young'un, then.
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Fred - 09 May 2009 21:49 GMT
>>>>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched
>>>>> the movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Still a young'un, then.

Yes; definitely. I should have said a younger fella'. I will remember to do
so until my 97th birthday.
Murray Arnow - 09 May 2009 22:16 GMT
>>>>>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched
>>>>>> the movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Yes; definitely. I should have said a younger fella'. I will remember to do
>so until my 97th birthday.

Your memory should be so good then.
Robert Bannister - 09 May 2009 00:45 GMT
>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
>> "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> When I was a yong fella' we used to keep milk in a thing called the safe.
> There was certainly no icebox or ice in the house.

We had a fridge, but I think we called it the "Frigidaire".
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Egbert White - 08 May 2009 23:43 GMT
>[1] We're roughly the same age and grew up in southern California.  I asked her
>if she had ever heard of the St Francis Dam disaster of 1928,

San Francisquito Dam?  It was called 'Franciskeet' by survivors of the
flood I've talked with in Fillmore, California, which is and was
downstream from the dam site. <http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/CA4972/>

Google also gets some hits on 'St Francis Dam.'  From looking at some
of the hits, one could gather that it was in San Francisquito Canyon
but it was called Saint Francis Dam, but all I've ever heard is 'San
Francisquito Dam' or 'Franciskeet Dam.'

I wonder what William Mulholland, the man who thought he knew how to
build a dam, called it.  I've heard that when they woke him to tell
him the dam had broken, his first words were something like "God,
please don't let anyone be killed."  According to one Google hit, over
450 were killed; according to another, over 600.

> and the
>conversation drifted into movies set in early-20th-century LA.
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Martin Ambuhl - 09 May 2009 00:10 GMT
> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
> "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint Eastwood...over the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 1)  In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and a sandwich
> "in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected to read "in the icebox"?

Frigidaire was founded in 1916 as the Guardian Refrigerator Company.
The first true refrigerator had been constructed in 1915 by the founder,
Alfred Mellowes.  Its name was changed to 'Frigidaire' in 1919.  Why do
you think it anachronistic for 'fridges', which had been around for at
least 9 years to be so called?

> 2)  In 1930, someone observes that this is the first time a woman has been
> allowed to visit "a serial killer" on death row at San Quentin prison.  Would
> even the police, or crime reporters, be using that expression at such an early
> date?  (It sticks in my mind that such people would have been called "spree
> killers" or the like.)

This time you seem to be right.  According to  Ressler and Schachtman,
_Whoever Fights Monsters: My Twenty Years Tracking Serial Killers for
the FBI _ (1993), in what may be a self-serving claim, FBI Special Agent
Robert Ressler coined the term in the 1970s.  However, its German
equivalent "Serienmörder" is known to have been used at least as early
as 1930 by Police inspector Ernst Gennat.
Donna Richoux - 09 May 2009 23:29 GMT
> > At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the
> > movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> you think it anachronistic for 'fridges', which had been around for at
> least 9 years to be so called?

Although what you say is true (or at least, Wikipedia says the same),
the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that
"fridge" for "refrigerator" was not common until after WWII, and their
first US citation is 1962.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 May 2009 00:03 GMT
>> > At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched
>> > the movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> "fridge" for "refrigerator" was not common until after WWII, and their
> first US citation is 1962.

That accords with what I see in the _NY Times_, the first verifiable
hit I get for "in the fridge" are from 1958, in a story about the
demise of the leprechaun in Ireland due to an increase in electricity,
and in 1959, in a beer ad.  In the first case, it's given with an
apostrophe, in the latter, in scare quotes, implying that it's a new
(and possibly foreign?) term:

   What can the poor leprechaun make of the Irish kitchen now?  It
   has lights and power plugs; radio and TV set are on the dresser;
   water is pumped in; the road outside is well lit; electric
   radiators heat the room; the pot is on an electric stove; the cows
   are milked by machine and the milk is pasteurized; bacon is
   electrically cured; butter comes from the cooperative creamery;
   the roof is fireproof; poteen is illegal, and to add insult to
   injury the modern housewife keeps all the meet in the 'fridge.
   It's a soul-destroying thing to be bested by electricity.
   [5/16/1958]

   We sympathize, and offer this time-tested advice: keep a goodly
   supply of Carlsberg in the "fridge" at all times.  [6/4/1959]

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Steve Hayes - 10 May 2009 05:36 GMT
>> Although what you say is true (or at least, Wikipedia says the same),
>> the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang says that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>apostrophe, in the latter, in scare quotes, implying that it's a new
>(and possibly foreign?) term:

Checking on my own usage I found an entry in my diary for November 1959 in
which I referred to a friend who showed me "some hailstones as big as tennis
balls which he had kept in the fridge".

But that was the spelling I always thought of since I first learned to write.

Of course speaking (which the original example was about) is different, but
from my earliest youth my mother always called it the fridge, and I did too.
It was only much later that I learned that it was short for "refrigerator".

I did occasionally see it spelt frig or 'frig, but that that always looked odd
to me, and I always associated it with the verb "frigging", though I've never
been quite sure how something frigs, and I would pronounce it with a hard g.
Someone might say "Put it in the frigging frig".

When I was 7 (in 1948) we moved to a smallholding where there was no mains
electricity, and so we had an ice box which we called an "ice box". It was a
wooden contraption with several doors, and my father would bring home a box of
dry ice (solid carbon dioxide) which we put in one of the compartments and it
kept everything inside cold. When the dry ice machine at the chemical factory
where my father worked broke down we had to go into Johannesburg and buy wet
ice, which dripped and a tray had to be emptied. We didn't realise, of course,
that the dry ice left invisible footprints all over the place, and so never
bothered to clean them up.

When we moved again to a place with mains electricity (in 1954) we got a
fridge again, but a fridge was a fridge and an ice box was an ice box. I think
that was about the time that I learned that "fridge" was short for
"refrigerator", a word we never used in ordinary speech.

The only time I've ever heard it used in ordinary speech was in a TV
advertisement for coffee creamer, from about 20 years ago, where a man opens
the fridge door and shouts to his wife (in another room) "There's no Cemora in
the refrigerator" and she replies "It's not inside, it's on top" -- a saying
that entered everyday vocabulary for something that wasn't where one expected
to find it.

Again, checking on my own usage in my diary, over the last 40 years I used
"fridge" 32 times, and "refrigerator" just once, in referring to a mechanical
refrigerator car in a stationary train, which had a compressor that clattered
away to itself.

>    What can the poor leprechaun make of the Irish kitchen now?  It
>    has lights and power plugs; radio and TV set are on the dresser;
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>    We sympathize, and offer this time-tested advice: keep a goodly
>    supply of Carlsberg in the "fridge" at all times.  [6/4/1959]

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 May 2009 07:04 GMT
> I did occasionally see it spelt frig or 'frig, but that that always
> looked odd to me, and I always associated it with the verb
> "frigging", though I've never been quite sure how something frigs,

Typically by rubbing its (or another's) clitoris with its fingers, I
believe, although I think it can refer to male masturbation as well.

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Steve Hayes - 10 May 2009 18:27 GMT
>> I did occasionally see it spelt frig or 'frig, but that that always
>> looked odd to me, and I always associated it with the verb
>> "frigging", though I've never been quite sure how something frigs,
>
>Typically by rubbing its (or another's) clitoris with its fingers, I
>believe, although I think it can refer to male masturbation as well.

Ah well, one learns something every day.

Especially about the amazing variety of things assumed to have clitorises.

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John Holmes - 16 May 2009 12:14 GMT
>> I did occasionally see it spelt frig or 'frig, but that that always
>> looked odd to me, and I always associated it with the verb
>> "frigging", though I've never been quite sure how something frigs,
>
> Typically by rubbing its (or another's) clitoris with its fingers, I
> believe, although I think it can refer to male masturbation as well.

Ah, I always wondered what goes on in the back of these trucks:
http://www.swirecoldstorage.com.au/files/im/tp2.jpg

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R H Draney - 10 May 2009 05:39 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>>> > 1) In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and
>>> > a sandwich "in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>apostrophe, in the latter, in scare quotes, implying that it's a new
>(and possibly foreign?) term:

*Thank* you....

That's what I was going for...knowing that refrigerators of one sort or another
were around as early as 1915, I was questioning the slang term itself in a scene
set on March 10th, 1928...looks like Eastwood was a good thirty years ahead of
himself on this one...(which is still better than the *forty* years he jumped
the gun on "serial killer"; you'd think a guy who starred in a near-contemporary
movie inspired by the Zodiac killer would know better)....r

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LFS - 10 May 2009 06:15 GMT
>>>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched
>>>> the movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>     We sympathize, and offer this time-tested advice: keep a goodly
>     supply of Carlsberg in the "fridge" at all times.  [6/4/1959]

Here's the OED on fridge:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Colloq. abbrev. of REFRIGERATOR 2.
  The proprietary name Frigidaire may also have contributed to the
currency of the shortened form frig. Cf. also frigerator in D.A. (quots.
1886, 1909).
1926 E. F. SPANNER Broken Trident xvi. 181 Best part of our stuff here
is chilled, and with no 'frig plant working, the mercury will climb like
a rocket. 1935 C. BROOKS Frame-Up xix. 243 Do you mean that you keep a
dead body in a fridge waiting for the right moment to bring her out?
1939 M. DICKENS One Pair of Hands xii. 198 Your frig is out of order and
the trifle hasn't got cold. 1946 News Chron. 25 Feb. 3/7 (heading) A
Communal ‘Frig.’ with 300 Lockers. 1954 I. MURDOCH Under Net vi. 90 In
the fridge was salmon, raspberries and considerable quantities of
butter, milk and cheese. 1955 G. GREENE Quiet American 90 We haven't a
frig - we send out for ice. 1960 [see BLINK n.2 1d]. 1971 Islander
(Victoria, B.C.) 21 Mar. 2/2 We usually landed more than could be eaten
fresh and having no fridge, dressed the surplus fillets with smoked salt
and hung them up to dry.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The variation in the spelling of the abbreviation is interesting, I
think. And should Iris M have written "were" in that sentence? And what
is "smoked salt", I wonder?

I remember that ours was always referred to as a fridge when I was a
child and the first time I heard the word refrigerator was from a
visitor from the US in the mid 1950s. Shortly after that, I used the
word in a school essay and my correct spelling was amended by my
teacher, who wrote "refridgerator" in the margin of my exercise book. At
parents' evening, my father was appalled to discover this and a heated
argument ensued which IIRC concluded with a letter of apology from the
teacher for her mistake.

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Pat Durkin - 10 May 2009 17:00 GMT
>>>>> At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched
>>>>> the movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
> heated argument ensued which IIRC concluded with a letter of apology
> from the teacher for her mistake.
I think I was between slang, trade marks and generics when I tried to
use the "proper" term, and called the thing a "refrigidaire".  Sometimes
"refridgidator".
But we didn't get one until sometime during WWII, and it was new and
miraculous.
tony cooper - 10 May 2009 18:26 GMT
>I think I was between slang, trade marks and generics when I tried to
>use the "proper" term, and called the thing a "refrigidaire".  Sometimes
>"refridgidator".
>But we didn't get one until sometime during WWII, and it was new and
>miraculous.

I remember our first refrigerators with an automatic ice maker. It's a
wonder it made ice since we kept opening the door to see if it was
working.

I wonder if ice cube trays are now a collector's item.  

Damn.  eBay has 277 listings offering ice cube trays.  "Vintage" ones,
at that.

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Nick - 10 May 2009 18:44 GMT
>>I think I was between slang, trade marks and generics when I tried to
>>use the "proper" term, and called the thing a "refrigidaire".  Sometimes
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I wonder if ice cube trays are now a collector's item.  

Not over here.  Big "american" style fridges are certainly taking off,
but lot of us still have under the counter "lader" fridges (with no ice
box) and separate freezers.  One of my freezers has a very narrow drawer
at the top which is pefect for keeping ice trays in.

We've got a very nice one made of some sort of rubber (it's bright blue)
- much easier to get the ice "cubes" (they are sort of hemispheres) out
by flexing.

Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.
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James Hogg - 10 May 2009 19:05 GMT
>Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.

Circle is Latin, sphere is Greek.
Semi is Latin, hemi is Greek.

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Pat Durkin - 10 May 2009 19:11 GMT
>> Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.
>
> Circle is Latin, sphere is Greek.
> Semi is Latin, hemi is Greek.

Demi is French.
Demimonde for hemisphere?
James Hogg - 10 May 2009 20:16 GMT
>>> Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Demi is French.
>Demimonde for hemisphere?

Odd that they're not interchangeable.

I see from the OED that "half-world" means both:
"hemisphere; the demi-monde".

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JimboCat - 11 May 2009 21:54 GMT
> >> Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Demi is French.
> Demimonde for hemisphere?

Ai! Then what's a hemi-demi-semi-quaver?

Ah, music is an international language. Of course.

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"Singing is the universal language, along with being on fire."
    -- Joss Whedon
R H Draney - 11 May 2009 22:18 GMT
JimboCat filted:

>> >> Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Ai! Then what's a hemi-demi-semi-quaver?

Now replaced by the metric equivalent: the centicrotchet...what's macrame?

....r

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Wood Avens - 11 May 2009 22:36 GMT
>JimboCat filted:

>>Ai! Then what's a hemi-demi-semi-quaver?
>
>Now replaced by the metric equivalent: the centicrotchet...what's macrame?

A Scot with horns.  What's a bend sinister?

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HVS - 11 May 2009 22:38 GMT
On 11 May 2009, Wood Avens wrote

>> JimboCat filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> A Scot with horns.  What's a bend sinister?

A badly blocked loo outlet.  What's a cistern?

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CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Wood Avens - 11 May 2009 22:51 GMT
>On 11 May 2009, Wood Avens wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>A badly blocked loo outlet.  What's a cistern?

The opposite of a trans- or ultratern.  What's a skua?

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HVS - 11 May 2009 22:53 GMT
On 11 May 2009, Wood Avens wrote

>> On 11 May 2009, Wood Avens wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> The opposite of a trans- or ultratern.  What's a skua?

Multiple New Zealand fauna that move backwards.  What are krill?

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Wood Avens - 11 May 2009 23:13 GMT
>On 11 May 2009, Wood Avens wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Multiple New Zealand fauna that move backwards.  What are krill?

Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?

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Nick - 12 May 2009 07:50 GMT
> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?

Those things you move very quickly along on a boat.  What are bulwarks?
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James Hogg - 12 May 2009 08:22 GMT
>> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?
>
>Those things you move very quickly along on a boat.  What are bulwarks?

Males of the species Cape anteaters. What's a furbelow?

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 May 2009 10:24 GMT
>>> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?
>>
>>Those things you move very quickly along on a boat.  What are bulwarks?
>
>Males of the species Cape anteaters. What's a furbelow?

A merkin.

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James Hogg - 12 May 2009 10:39 GMT
>>>> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>A merkin.

Expect seven years' bad luck for breaking the chain.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 May 2009 12:25 GMT
>>>>> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Expect seven years' bad luck for breaking the chain.

Oh, good. That means I will live for another seven years. I can now plan
ahead.

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James Hogg - 12 May 2009 12:29 GMT
>>>>>> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Oh, good. That means I will live for another seven years. I can now plan
>ahead.

I do all my planning in retrospect. That way the plans agree
better with the outcome.

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Nick - 12 May 2009 17:28 GMT
>>>>>>> Thousands of tiny rivulets.  What are runnels?
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I do all my planning in retrospect. That way the plans agree
> better with the outcome.

I once got completely stuffed in annual performance evaluations where my
boss was the only one who had been conscientious enough to actually
follow the process, and set my objectives at the start of the year,
rather than in the week before the report was due.  So I was also the
only person who did things that weren't in their objectives and didn't
achieve all of them perfectly.
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R H Draney - 12 May 2009 20:12 GMT
Nick filted:

>> I do all my planning in retrospect. That way the plans agree
>> better with the outcome.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>only person who did things that weren't in their objectives and didn't
>achieve all of them perfectly.

Mine always chanted the mantra "it's a living document"...we were compelled to
have goals written out at the beginning of the year, but also encouraged to
"maintain" them as time progressed....

Done correctly, it's something like setting up the targets, launching the
arrows, then moving the targets to where the arrows landed....r

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 May 2009 02:20 GMT
> Ai! Then what's a hemi-demi-semi-quaver?
>
> Ah, music is an international language. Of course.

The is the US.  We don't do "international".  It's a sixty-fourth
note.

Out of curiosity, how did an eighth note come to be a "quaver"?  The
OED says that the term was originally applied to "a shake or trill,
especially in singing", but that would seem to be a lot shorter than
an eigth most of the time.

Given the tail on the eigth note, I would have expected that to be the
"crotchet", but no, that's a quarter note.  Then we've got "minim" for
the relatively long half note.  I've never understood what was so
minimal about it.  Then, of course, the full duration of the measure,
the whole note, is a "semi-breve", with a "breve", cognate with
"brief", a note so long you never see it anymore.

Seriously, you guys are pulling our legs, right?

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the Omrud - 12 May 2009 22:44 GMT
>> Ai! Then what's a hemi-demi-semi-quaver?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Seriously, you guys are pulling our legs, right?

Roland isn't around, so I'll have to do my best.

I don't know about the quaver, but the apparent pace of written music
changed dramatically somehwere around 350 years ago.  I sing a lot of
early music;  you have to switch your thought processes when moving from
Tallis to Bach - the breve is frequently encountered in 16th Century
music and is more like today's minim in performance length.  A
reasonably fast beat of two minims to the bar is prefectly ordinary.  Of
course, the bar hadn't been invented in the 16th Century and the
notation is quite alien in appearance to modern musicians, but the
basics remain - the breve is not a long note.  Unless they all played at
funereal speeds in those days.

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Paul Wolff - 10 May 2009 19:50 GMT
>On Sun, 10 May 2009 18:44:02 +0100, Nick
><3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Circle is Latin, sphere is Greek.
>Semi is Latin, hemi is Greek.

I can see I don't really belong here. I put practicality above language,
evidenced by my reading Nick's wonderment as being directed to the
purpose of a part-spherical surface to an ice cube (nearly fell into the
trap of writing quasi-spherical there, though I don't think
pseudo-spherical is at all what I mean).

A spherical cube (I assure you, no need for all those hands up)
minimises the melting rate, of course. Spherical ice cubes are ideal for
keeping a cold drink cold, while other shapes that have a higher
surface:volume ratio are better for cooling drinks that are not cold
enough.
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Hatunen - 11 May 2009 00:19 GMT
>>On Sun, 10 May 2009 18:44:02 +0100, Nick
>><3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>surface:volume ratio are better for cooling drinks that are not cold
>enough.

More to the point, a sperical "cube" freezes faster. But it will
also melt faster, a sphere having tyhe lowest surface area to
volume ratio.

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Hatunen - 11 May 2009 00:21 GMT
>>>On Sun, 10 May 2009 18:44:02 +0100, Nick
>>><3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>also melt faster, a sphere having tyhe lowest surface area to
>volume ratio.

Wait. That's backwards.

Ignore pervious post.

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Skitt - 11 May 2009 00:35 GMT
>> Paul Wolff wrote:

>>> I can see I don't really belong here. I put practicality above
>>> language, evidenced by my reading Nick's wonderment as being
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Ignore pervious post.

... he said, imperviously.
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Skitt (AmE)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 10 May 2009 19:36 GMT
>>>I think I was between slang, trade marks and generics when I tried to
>>>use the "proper" term, and called the thing a "refrigidaire".  Sometimes
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>box) and separate freezers.  One of my freezers has a very narrow drawer
>at the top which is pefect for keeping ice trays in.

In mine the very shallow full-width drawer is labelled "Ice Bank". It
came with an ice-cube tray.

>We've got a very nice one made of some sort of rubber (it's bright blue)
>- much easier to get the ice "cubes" (they are sort of hemispheres) out
>by flexing.

Inverted pyramids in my case.

>Nick, wondering why we have semicircles and hemispheres.

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Nick - 10 May 2009 20:47 GMT
>>Not over here.  Big "american" style fridges are certainly taking off,
>>but lot of us still have under the counter "lader" fridges (with no ice
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In mine the very shallow full-width drawer is labelled "Ice Bank". It
> came with an ice-cube tray.

You're absolutely right to correct me there.  "Narrow" was entirely the
wrong word - mine too is shallow and full-width.  It's not labelled
anything.

It's the home of the ice tray, a few herbs and that jacket thing for
rapid cooling of wine.  
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Robin Bignall - 10 May 2009 21:35 GMT
>>>I think I was between slang, trade marks and generics when I tried to
>>>use the "proper" term, and called the thing a "refrigidaire".  Sometimes
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>box) and separate freezers.  One of my freezers has a very narrow drawer
>at the top which is pefect for keeping ice trays in.

American style fridges don't fit easily into fitted kitchens.  Most
appliances such as washers, dishwashers, ovens etc. have been
standardised at 60 cm widths.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 May 2009 23:55 GMT
> American style fridges don't fit easily into fitted kitchens.  Most
> appliances such as washers, dishwashers, ovens etc. have been
> standardised at 60 cm widths.

The standard dishwasher in the US appears to be 24 inches wide, which
is about 61 cm, which leads me to believe that they're really 60 cm
wide.  Or, possibly that your 60 cm is a holdover from pre-metric days
when the spaces were designed to hold 24-inch appliances and that
builders still do allow for the extra centimeter.  No, scratch that.
I just measured mine, and it's a shade under 23.75 inches, so probably
60 cm.

Stoves here appear to be mostly 30 inches wide, and refrigerators are
either 30 inches (76 cm) wide or 32 inches (81 cm) wide.  (At least
that's what they're quoted as.  They may well actually be 75 cm and 80
cm respectively.)  And, of course, kitchen slots are cut accordingly.

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Robin Bignall - 11 May 2009 21:52 GMT
>> American style fridges don't fit easily into fitted kitchens.  Most
>> appliances such as washers, dishwashers, ovens etc. have been
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>that's what they're quoted as.  They may well actually be 75 cm and 80
>cm respectively.)  And, of course, kitchen slots are cut accordingly.

We have a slot for the fridge that is exactly 60 cm wide, one side
being an outside wall, so we were interested in the precise
measurements when we bought a new fridge/freezer.  We measured a few
with a metal tape measure and many were over 60 cm, some being nearer
61. One or two were just over 59.  We got one that was just a shade
under 60 and it just fitted.  I was thinking of those really wide
American fridge/freezers that appear to be double width.  Maybe they
are 120 cm and would fit into a double-width slot, but our kitchen is
not big enough.

We ordered a new kitchen in oak at the end of last month, with work
surfaces in that hard material we were discussing in a previous
thread.  Unfortunately it can't be delivered until May 27, but we're
hard at work putting in the power points and wiring.  Brick dust
everywhere.
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Jeffrey Turner - 11 May 2009 02:14 GMT
>> I think I was between slang, trade marks and generics when I tried to
>> use the "proper" term, and called the thing a "refrigidaire".  Sometimes
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Damn.  eBay has 277 listings offering ice cube trays.  "Vintage" ones,
> at that.

Around here we cut the ice off the ponds in winter.  Well...  Not
most people, but it is done at the Shaker village recreation.  But I've
never had a built-in ice-maker, and haven't missed it.  I don't use a
lot of ice anyway.  The covered trays are a big improvement over the
"vintage" ones.

--Jeff

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Garrett Wollman - 11 May 2009 03:50 GMT
>Around here we cut the ice off the ponds in winter.

Around here we used to cut the ice off the ponds in winter, and ship
it to places like Florida, England, and even India in the summer.
(See Gavin Weightman, /The Frozen Water Trade/.)  Although
long-distance shipment of ice did not last long, ice was regularly
shipped from New England to New York City as late as 1940.

-GAWollman

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Mike Lyle - 11 May 2009 22:09 GMT
[...]

> That accords with what I see in the _NY Times_, the first verifiable
> hit I get for "in the fridge" are from 1958, in a story about the
> demise of the leprechaun in Ireland due to an increase in electricity,
[...]

>    What can the poor leprechaun make of the Irish kitchen now? [...]
>     bacon is
>    electrically cured; [...]

Nice trick if you can do it. What on earth did the writer mean?

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R H Draney - 12 May 2009 00:35 GMT
Mike Lyle filted:

>>     bacon is
>>    electrically cured; [...]
>
>Nice trick if you can do it. What on earth did the writer mean?

Convulsive therapy?...r

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Robert Bannister - 12 May 2009 02:07 GMT
> Mike Lyle filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Convulsive therapy?...r

But what was it cured of? Swine flu?

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 May 2009 02:31 GMT
> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Nice trick if you can do it. What on earth did the writer mean?

That's the only instance of "electrically cured" in the run of the _NY
Times_.  There's one hit (besides this thread) on Google, from the
_Tuapeka Times_ in, apparently, 1909:

   The Queenslander publishes an account of an experiment in the
   curing of meat by electricity ... It is an American idea, and I
   have not seen a reference to the subject in any of the trade
   papers, so cannot vouch for the correctness of results, for one
   has to be careful in accpting American claims unless they come
   from a recognized authoritative source.  Still the information is
   interesting, and if the curing of meat by electricity can be
   carried out it will have an important effect upon the treatment of
   certain classes of meat.  It will not apply to all classes, as
   salt is an important item in this curing process, and cannot
   therefore be used in connection with meat that it is deisred to
   use as fresh.  Therefore this process cannot very well supersede
   the freezing of [sic] chilling processes.

   The curing of the meat with the aid of electricity in its
   fundamental process is very simple.  The meat is placed in tanks
   containing brine.  The brine is in the same solution which is used
   in curing establishments everywhere.  Electric currents are sent
   through the tanks.  They send the salt into and through the meat
   much more quickly, and distribute it much more thoroughly, than is
   possible under the old method in which the meat is merely allowed
   to soak in the brine.

            http://tinyurl.com/r86gbs
            <URL:http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/
             paperspast?a=d&d=TT19090303.2.30&l=mi&e=-------10--1----0-all>

There's more there, but that's the process

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Mike Lyle - 12 May 2009 20:19 GMT
>> [...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Times_.  There's one hit (besides this thread) on Google, from the
> _Tuapeka Times_ in, apparently, 1909:
[...]

>    The curing of the meat with the aid of electricity in its
>    fundamental process is very simple.  The meat is placed in tanks
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> There's more there, but that's the process

Thank you. But, gosh!.. I suppose it was one of those miracle things
they used to want to believe electricity could do, up to and including
reanimating the dead. But presumably a current would kill or suppress
certain spoilage organisms for long enough to justify some optimism.

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Hatunen - 10 May 2009 17:43 GMT
>> > At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the
>> > movie "Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>"fridge" for "refrigerator" was not common until after WWII, and their
>first US citation is 1962.

I heard it by the time I went to college in 1954, but I heard it
from a Canadian roommate and at first thought it to be a
Canadianism.

We still called the box with cold in it an "icebox" even though
it had refrigeration.

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Garrett Wollman - 09 May 2009 04:55 GMT
>1)  In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and a sandwich
>"in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected to read "in the icebox"?

My father, born in the 1940s, certainly says "icebox".  I'm not sure
if I can contrive a way to get either grandmother to talk naturally
about the device (although both will be within reach this weekend).

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Steve Hayes - 09 May 2009 06:59 GMT
>At the recommendation of my chiropractor [1], I recently watched the movie
>"Changeling", starring Angelina Jolie and directed by Clint Eastwood...over the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>1)  In 1928, a mother tells her young boy that he'll find milk and a sandwich
>"in the fridge".  Should the line have been corrected to read "in the icebox"?

They had fridges in 1928, Shirley?

We had an ice box in the 1950s, but that was because we had no electricity.

>2)  In 1930, someone observes that this is the first time a woman has been
>allowed to visit "a serial killer" on death row at San Quentin prison.  Would
>even the police, or crime reporters, be using that expression at such an early
>date?  (It sticks in my mind that such people would have been called "spree
>killers" or the like.)

Yes, that could be an anachronism.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

 
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