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Push bike

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John Kane - 09 May 2009 19:37 GMT
A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered).  I was talking
to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in the shop to
look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.

It's not an expression that I see or hear used frequently and I was
wondering if anyone has an idea of the origins of the phrase?

John Kane Kingson ON Canada
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org - 09 May 2009 20:59 GMT
> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
> the shop to look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.

> It's not an expression that I see or hear used frequently and I was
> wondering if anyone has an idea of the origins of the phrase?

> John Kane Kingson ON Canada

Push bike is a terribly British affectation.  In the USA, "bicycle"
has always meant a pedal driven two wheeled vehicle, just as in
German, it has always been a "Fahrrad", whereas in Italy it is a
"bicicletta" unambiguously.  In Switzerland the term "Velo" is widely
used although, depending on which of their four languages is local, it
could be German, Italian, French, or Romansch usage.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/push-bike

Jobst Brandt
Skitt - 09 May 2009 21:13 GMT
>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/push-bike

Maybe, because of sharp stuff puncturing their tires (tyres, over there),
they had to push them a lot.  No?
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Skitt (AmE)

tony cooper - 09 May 2009 22:14 GMT
>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Maybe, because of sharp stuff puncturing their tires (tyres, over there),
>they had to push them a lot.  No?

I would think it would go back to when bicycles did not have chains
and pedals.  Forward movement was by pushing with the feet.  Here's
one that has to be pushed by the feet:

http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/first
402.html


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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Bertel Lund Hansen - 10 May 2009 04:38 GMT
tony cooper skrev:

> I would think it would go back to when bicycles did not have chains
> and pedals.  Forward movement was by pushing with the feet.

That is what came to my mind by the expression "push bike". Here
is a page with modern ones:

     http://www.boernibalance.dk/shop/loebecykler-19c1.html

In Danish we call them "løbecykel" which would be "runbike" in
English.

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Bertel
http://bertel.lundhansen.dk/            FIDUSO: http://fiduso.dk/

NUN - 10 May 2009 13:12 GMT
> tony cooper skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> In Danish we call them "løbecykel" which would be "runbike" in
> English.
Løbehjul!
Bertel Lund Hansen - 10 May 2009 13:48 GMT
NUN skrev:

> > In Danish we call them "løbecykel" which would be "runbike" in
> > English.

> Løbehjul!

Et løbehjul (a runwheel) is something else. It is called
"scooter" in English:

http://www.boernibalance.dk/shop/loebehjul-20c1.html?gclid=CIqXv47ksZoCFUIw3godtEkrdQ

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Bertel
http://bertel.lundhansen.dk/            FIDUSO: http://fiduso.dk/

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 10 May 2009 14:41 GMT
>NUN skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>http://www.boernibalance.dk/shop/loebehjul-20c1.html?gclid=CIqXv47ksZoCFUIw3godtEkrdQ

In English one of those might be called a "children's/kid's/child's"
scooter to distinguish it from the other types pictured here:
http://images.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=scooter&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 May 2009 16:39 GMT
> NUN skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> http://www.boernibalance.dk/shop/loebehjul-20c1.html?gclid=CIqXv47ksZoCFUIw3godtEkrdQ

I have to say, though, that that's what *I* always assumed "push bike"
referred to (or some other thing where you move by pushing on the
ground).  This thread is the first time I realized that Brits just
meant "bicycle".

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Robert Bannister - 11 May 2009 02:05 GMT
>> NUN skrev:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> ground).  This thread is the first time I realized that Brits just
> meant "bicycle".

England may not have real mountains, but it still has hills steep enough
to make most people get off and push.

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Rob Bannister

Irwell - 11 May 2009 16:11 GMT
>>> NUN skrev:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> England may not have real mountains, but it still has hills steep enough
> to make most people get off and push.

Even going downhill in certain places, Hard Knotts Pass in
the Lakes in one such place where it is pretty dangerous
on a bike (or tandem when we did it).
Nick Spalding - 09 May 2009 21:28 GMT
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org wrote, in
<4a05e0ae$0$1641$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
on 09 May 2009 19:59:42 GMT:

> > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.

Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).

> In the USA, "bicycle"
> has always meant a pedal driven two wheeled vehicle, just as in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jobst Brandt
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Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org - 09 May 2009 22:00 GMT
>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
>>> the shop to look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.

>>> It's not an expression that I see or hear used frequently and I was
>>> wondering if anyone has an idea of the origins of the phrase?

>>> John Kane Kingson ON Canada

>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.

> Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).

In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
"bicycle" is used?

>> In the USA, "bicycle" has always meant a pedal driven two wheeled
>> vehicle, just as in German, it has always been a "Fahrrad", whereas
>> in Italy it is a "bicicletta" unambiguously.  In Switzerland the
>> term "Velo" is widely used although, depending on which of their
>> four languages is local, it could be German, Italian, French, or
>> Romansch usage.

 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/push-bike  
Signature

Jobst Brandt

Don Phillipson - 09 May 2009 22:16 GMT
>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.

>> Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).

> In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
> "bicycle" is used?

Nothing special, viz. the universal name for any two-wheeler from an
Olympic racing bike to a plastic toy for infants.  I think that JB's
material points were:
1.  Push bike is standard 20th century British speech (used by
all social classes.)
2.  Those non-Brits who use traditional British vernacular are
often censured by others as pretentions.  (This is rather hard
on Americans who went to school in Britain and picked up the
local vocabulary, as teenagers normally do.)

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Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

the Omrud - 09 May 2009 22:41 GMT
>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> 2.  Those non-Brits who use traditional British vernacular are
> often censured by others as pretentions.

Really?  It seemed to me that he was marking *Brits* who use traditional
British vernacular as pretentious.

Signature

David

Mike Lyle - 11 May 2009 21:17 GMT
>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Really?  It seemed to me that he was marking *Brits* who use
> traditional British vernacular as pretentious.

Yes, and he didn't deny it when he had the opportunity. Maybe the
bloke's channelling Riggs.

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Mike.

Tom Keats - 13 May 2009 03:10 GMT
>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Yes, and he didn't deny it when he had the opportunity. Maybe the
> bloke's channelling Riggs.

I (et al) channeled Diana Riggs in the '60s.

cheers,
    Tom

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Tom Keats - 13 May 2009 04:45 GMT
>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I (et al) channeled Diana Riggs in the '60s.

Okay, that's Diana Rigg, without the superfluous 's'.

She was nevertheless slinky.  Meow.  Hey, I'm almost channeling
her again (from the '60s.)

Woah!  Now I'm channeling her and '60s Marlo Thomas washing each
others hair in the shower.  And '60s Raquel Welch is joining in.

A bicycle is a bike, and a bike is a bicycle.
That is all ye need to know.  Nice 'n simple.

Well, it doesn't hurt to know how to get into your car
when you lock your car keys inside, too.

cheers again,
    Tom


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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 May 2009 22:17 GMT
>>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
>"bicycle" is used?

A "push bike" or "pedal cycle".

The point is that the word "bicycle" was soon abbreviated to "bike" or
"cycle". The "motor bicycle", as it was originally called in Britain,
was then introduced. That name was then abbreviated to "motorbike"and
then just "bike". That meant there was a need to distinguish between a
bike with an engine and a bike powered by its rider. The terms "pedal
cycle" (1905), "push bicycle" (1906) and "pushbike" (1910) were
invented. (The dates are the first know written uses of the terms as
quoted in the Oxford English Dictionary.)

>>> In the USA, "bicycle" has always meant a pedal driven two wheeled
>>> vehicle, just as in German, it has always been a "Fahrrad", whereas
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>  http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/push-bike  

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

John Kane - 11 May 2009 15:00 GMT
On May 9, 5:17 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> >>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> invented. (The dates are the first know written uses of the terms as
> quoted in the Oxford English Dictionary.)

Thanks Peter. That helps establish where it came from.  I suspect that
I may have learned the term from my father who was around in those
days.  It may have been normal usage in my part of Canada at the
time.

John Kane Kingston ON Canad

John Kane Kingston ON Canad
R H Draney - 09 May 2009 22:26 GMT
jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org filted:

>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>
>> Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).
>
>In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
>"bicycle" is used?

One of those penny-farthing jobs, innit?...r

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Don Phillipson - 10 May 2009 18:32 GMT
> >>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .

> One of those penny-farthing jobs, innit?...r

Believe it or not, the penny-farthing was called in its day
the Ordinary Bicycle.  The design with two wheels of the
same size (and chain drive, which the Ordinary did not
need) was first marketed as the Safety Bicycle.

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Nick Spalding - 10 May 2009 20:34 GMT
Don Phillipson wrote, in <gu75qd$329$2@theodyn.ncf.ca>
on Sun, 10 May 2009 13:32:51 -0400:

> > >>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> same size (and chain drive, which the Ordinary did not
> need) was first marketed as the Safety Bicycle.

What was the Ordinary being distinguished from before the Safety came
along.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

mike.a.schwab@gmail.com - 11 May 2009 02:53 GMT
> Don Phillipson wrote, in <gu75qd$32...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
>  on Sun, 10 May 2009 13:32:51 -0400:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Nick Spalding
> BrE/IrE

Velocipede?  Basically a safety bicycle without pedals or chains.
Then pedals were attached to the front wheel, and to get higher
gearing the front wheel grew into the Ordinary/Penny-Farthing.
Brian Huntley - 11 May 2009 04:12 GMT
> What was the Ordinary being distinguished from before the Safety came
> along.

Well, there were the ones with the small wheel in front (Farthing-
Pennys?), and the ones with the short "jackshaft" cranks and chains on
either side ("Kangaroo" bicycles, I believe), and the tricycles and
quads of various oddball configurations (like the two big wheels on
the sides and a small wheel both forward and aft.)  They all make an
Ordinary look, well, ordinary.
John Kane - 11 May 2009 15:29 GMT
> Don Phillipson wrote, in <gu75qd$32...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
>  on Sun, 10 May 2009 13:32:51 -0400:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> What was the Ordinary being distinguished from before the Safety came
> along.

Bicycle (or possibly 'wheel'.)  The term ordinary seems to have been
applied to differentiate it from the radially new "Safety" bicycle.

Wheel seems to have been a common British term for a cycle in the late
19th century at least among avid cyclists. See for example "Round the
World on a Wheel " by John Foster Fraser.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 11 May 2009 15:36 GMT
>> Don Phillipson wrote, in <gu75qd$32...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
>>  on Sun, 10 May 2009 13:32:51 -0400:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Bicycle (or possibly 'wheel'.)  The term ordinary seems to have been
>applied to differentiate it from the radially new "Safety" bicycle.

I assume "radially" is a typo for "radically".

>Wheel seems to have been a common British term for a cycle in the late
>19th century at least among avid cyclists. See for example "Round the
>World on a Wheel " by John Foster Fraser.
>
>John Kane Kingston ON Canada

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

James Hogg - 11 May 2009 15:39 GMT
>>> Don Phillipson wrote, in <gu75qd$32...@theodyn.ncf.ca>
>>>  on Sun, 10 May 2009 13:32:51 -0400:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>>
>I assume "radially" is a typo for "radically".

This is getting spoky.

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James

Skitt - 11 May 2009 18:08 GMT
>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> 19th century at least among avid cyclists. See for example "Round the
> World on a Wheel " by John Foster Fraser.

The common name for a bicycle in Latvia is "ritenis" -- that translates to
"wheel".
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Skitt (AmE)

James Hogg - 11 May 2009 18:18 GMT
>>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>The common name for a bicycle in Latvia is "ritenis" -- that translates to
>"wheel".

And there's German "Rad" with the same meanings.

The OED describes the use of English "wheel" in this sense as
"orig. and esp. U.S."

Here are two quotations:

"1880 Scribner's Monthly Feb. 483/1 A few possessors of the
birotate chariot, numbering some forty odd, enjoyed a 'wheel
around the Hub'."

"1884 Harper's Mag. Jan. 305/1 The wheel was a new thing in New
York ways."

I just love that birotate chariot.

Signature

James

Skitt - 11 May 2009 18:29 GMT
>>>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> And there's German "Rad" with the same meanings.

In my experience, it was usually "Fahrrad".  I don't recall ever hearing
just "Rad".

<rest snipped>

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Skitt, drawing from experiences in these places:
http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/places.html

James Hogg - 11 May 2009 18:52 GMT
>>>>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>In my experience, it was usually "Fahrrad".  I don't recall ever hearing
>just "Rad".

It's common enough, and the verb is "radeln":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrrad

Signature

James

Reinhold {Rey} Aman - 11 May 2009 21:35 GMT
[...]
>>>> The common name for a bicycle in Latvia is "ritenis" -- that
>>>> translates to "wheel".
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It's common enough, and the verb is "radeln":
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrrad

Skitt, when you lived in Germany (Bavaria), did you never hear the
standard Bavarian word for "bicycle," _Ràdl_?  (<à> as in "but").
That's literally "little bicycle" and "little wheel" but is not a
diminutive.  I bet you just forgot.

~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/
Skitt - 11 May 2009 21:43 GMT
> [...]
>>>>> The common name for a bicycle in Latvia is "ritenis" -- that
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> That's literally "little bicycle" and "little wheel" but is not a
> diminutive.  I bet you just forgot.

Hmm.  Yeah, I know what it is, but I think it just never came up in my
casual chats.  I didn't own one.  I rode one in Latvia, and then again it
the USA, but never in Germany.

(I lived in both Bavaria and Thuringia.)
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Skitt (AmE)

R H Draney - 11 May 2009 22:21 GMT
Skitt filted:

>>> The common name for a bicycle in Latvia is "ritenis" -- that
>>> translates to "wheel".
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>In my experience, it was usually "Fahrrad".  I don't recall ever hearing
>just "Rad".

At the risk of reigniting a recent rant, my high-school German class were
encouraged to subscribe to a newsletter called "Das Rad"...the masthead showed a
picture of a bicycle, not a single wheel....r

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Andrew Price - 12 May 2009 22:11 GMT
>>In my experience, it was usually "Fahrrad".  I don't recall ever hearing
>>just "Rad".
>
>At the risk of reigniting a recent rant, my high-school German class were
>encouraged to subscribe to a newsletter called "Das Rad"...the masthead showed a
>picture of a bicycle, not a single wheel....r

Both terms are in current use, and for that reason, when describing a
single wheel, the word "Laufrad" is often used in bike shops and
technical magazines, to avoid any possible confusion with the entire
bicycle.
Frank ess - 11 May 2009 18:41 GMT
>>>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> I just love that birotate chariot.

My born-in-England, raised-in-Utah by born-in-England parents, called
bicycles "wheels": "Here, boy, get on your wheel and bring me some
sweets." (1947)

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Frank ess

Robert Bannister - 12 May 2009 02:09 GMT
>>>>>>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> The common name for a bicycle in Latvia is "ritenis" -- that translates
> to "wheel".

And, as you would remember, German short-form "Rad".

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Rob Bannister

Phil W Lee - 10 May 2009 21:35 GMT
"Don Phillipson" <e925@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> considered Sun, 10 May 2009
13:32:51 -0400 the perfect time to write:

>> >>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation. . . .
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>same size (and chain drive, which the Ordinary did not
>need) was first marketed as the Safety Bicycle.

Reviving common use of the name would be a wonderful way of promoting
their use.
John Dean - 09 May 2009 23:32 GMT
>>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
> "bicycle" is used?

This one visualizes a bicycle (the push bike kind)
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John Dean
Oxford

the Omrud - 09 May 2009 23:35 GMT
>>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
> "bicycle" is used?

A push bike.

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David

HVS - 10 May 2009 00:09 GMT
On 09 May 2009,  wrote

>>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I
>>>> was talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
> "bicycle" is used?

He visualises a "push bike".

Are you classifying the use of "push bike" as pretentious in North
America, or non-geographically pretentious?  If the latter, you're
being silly.

The classic examples of this, for me, are the terms for moving
pictures.  In England, calling films "movies" is pretentious; in
NA, calling movies "films" is pretentious.

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Django Cat - 10 May 2009 08:34 GMT
> >> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>
> > Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).
>
> In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
> "bicycle" is used?

Hang about, I'll ask him when he sobers up.

[Long pause.]

He says he doesn't know, and could you ask the Englishwoman.

DC
--
Amethyst Deceiver - 10 May 2009 20:52 GMT
>> >> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>He says he doesn't know, and could you ask the Englishwoman.

The Englishwoman over here visualises a bicycle.
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Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Paul Wolff - 10 May 2009 23:26 GMT
>On Sun, 10 May 2009 07:34:23 GMT, "Django Cat" <notareal@address.com>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>The Englishwoman over here visualises a bicycle.

Which, being interpreted, is English as she is spoke.
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Paul

Jeffrey Turner - 11 May 2009 01:58 GMT
>> On Sun, 10 May 2009 07:34:23 GMT, "Django Cat" <notareal@address.com>
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Which, being interpreted, is English as she is spoke.

"Bicycle," "spoke," is this a synecdoche?

--Jeff

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William - 11 May 2009 03:45 GMT
> >> On Sun, 10 May 2009 07:34:23 GMT, "Django Cat" <notar...@address.com>
> >>> jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> "Bicycle," "spoke," is this a synecdoche?

No, this is Brooklyn.

--
WH
Paul Wolff - 11 May 2009 09:23 GMT
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>>> On Sun, 10 May 2009 07:34:23 GMT, "Django Cat" <notareal@address.com>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>"Bicycle," "spoke," is this a synecdoche?

In a manner of speaking.
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Paul

sipston_777@my-deja.com - 15 May 2009 01:14 GMT
On May 9, 10:00 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> >>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> In that case, what does the Englisman visualize when the term
> "bicycle" is used?

breasts bouncing contrapunctually.

> >> In the USA, "bicycle" has always meant a pedal driven two wheeled
> >> vehicle, just as in German, it has always been a "Fahrrad", whereas
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> --
> Jobst Brandt

G DAEB
COPYRIGHT (C) 2009 SIPSTON
--
Andrew Price - 09 May 2009 22:12 GMT
>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>
>Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).

That's what it was called in Australia, too, where I lived as a child.
John Pitts - 10 May 2009 00:53 GMT
["Followup-To:" header set to rec.bicycles.misc.]

>>> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>>
>>Nothing affected about it, it is just what it is called (or named).
>
> That's what it was called in Australia, too, where I lived as a child.

Still is.

Signature

John

the Omrud - 09 May 2009 22:32 GMT
>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.

"terribly"?  "affectation"?  Are the English not permitted a dialect of,
er, English?

> In the USA, "bicycle"
> has always meant a pedal driven two wheeled vehicle

As it has in BrE.  We can just about manage when an object has two
slightly different names.

>, just as in
> German, it has always been a "Fahrrad", whereas in Italy it is a
> "bicicletta" unambiguously.  In Switzerland the term "Velo" is widely
> used although, depending on which of their four languages is local, it
> could be German, Italian, French, or Romansch usage.

Let's hear for The Mixtures.  Oh, no, they were Australian, not terrible
British.  Shome mishtake, Shirley?

Signature

David

Django Cat - 10 May 2009 08:32 GMT
> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Let's hear for The Mixtures.  Oh, no, they were Australian, not
> terrible British.  Shome mishtake, Shirley?

Argh! STS!

--
Django Cat - 11 May 2009 00:06 GMT
> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "terribly"?  "affectation"?  Are the English not permitted a dialect
> of, er, English?

I am seriously beginning to think the answer is 'no'.

I'm wondering whether to stop being Mr Nice Guy... er ... Bloke ...
about this crap, as I have been throughout PTD's recent xenophobic
rants. Nobody these days wants to claim our variety of English sets a
world standard, but I'm fed up with US-default posters suggesting it's
some quaint f***ing curiosity.

DC

--
tony cooper - 11 May 2009 01:08 GMT
>> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>world standard, but I'm fed up with US-default posters suggesting it's
>some quaint f***ing curiosity.

And we haven't even *touched* on bowlers and brollies.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 01:28 GMT
> >> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> >> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> And we haven't even touched on bowlers and brollies.

Grrrrrr.....

DC
--
Phil W Lee - 11 May 2009 14:54 GMT
"Django Cat" <notareal@address.com> considered Mon, 11 May 2009
00:28:38 GMT the perfect time to write:

>> >> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> >> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>Grrrrrr.....

Or (when making notes in a meeting with US staff and needing to make a
correction) asking to borrow a rubber!!!!

I've seen that one happen - confusion and embarrassment all round :)
musika - 11 May 2009 16:16 GMT
>>>>>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>>>>>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Grrrrrr.....

Go on, Cat. Call 'im Tone again. That'll larn 'im.

Signature

Ray
UK

Django Cat - 12 May 2009 09:04 GMT
> > > > > > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).
> > > > > > > I was talking to a sport shop owner the other day and
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Go on, Cat. Call 'im Tone again. That'll larn 'im.

I don't think I'd get away with it agin...

--
Jerry Friedman - 11 May 2009 05:02 GMT
> > jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
>
> > > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> > > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
> > > > the shop to look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.
...

> > > Push bike is a terribly British affectation.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> about this crap, as I have been throughout PTD's recent xenophobic
> rants.

I won't object if you stop being nice (sort of nice) to PTD, a fly who
you won't catch with honey any more than with vinegar.  Speaking of
stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?

> Nobody these days wants to claim our variety of English sets a
> world standard, but I'm fed up with US-default posters suggesting it's
> some quaint f***ing curiosity.

One was plenty, but have there been more than two?

--
Jerry Friedman
Django Cat - 11 May 2009 07:32 GMT
> > > jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I won't object if you stop being nice (sort of nice) to PTD, a fly who
> you won't catch with honey any more than with vinegar.

I suppose I did call him a twat, but in a cuddly, ironic way.

>  Speaking of
> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?

Ah.  Could be before my time...

> > Nobody these days wants to claim our variety of English sets a
> > world standard, but I'm fed up with US-default posters suggesting
> > it's some quaint f***ing curiosity.
>
> One was plenty, but have there been more than two?

Depends how we define our parameters.

DC

--
the Omrud - 11 May 2009 09:05 GMT
>> Speaking of
>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
>
> Ah.  Could be before my time...

BrE folk (apparently including DC) are not in general familiar with Brer
Rabbit and his friends, unless perhaps they are fans of "Sons of the
South".  Dad had a book of Brer Rabbit stories which I suspect he may
have got from Warwickshire-based American soldiers during the war (he
also laid his hands on a number of now rare 78s), so I grew up knowing
all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot of sense to
me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

Signature

David

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 09:37 GMT
> > > Speaking of
> > > stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Brer Rabbit and his friends, unless perhaps they are fans of "Sons of
> the South".  

Song of the South?  The Sons of the South look to have been a very
different outfit...

>Dad had a book of Brer Rabbit stories which I suspect he
> may have got from Warwickshire-based American soldiers during the war
> (he also laid his hands on a number of now rare 78s), so I grew up
> knowing all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot
> of sense to me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

[Googles; reads story].  Ah, yes, nice one.  We did have a teacher in
infants school long long ago who read us Brer Rabbit stories but I'd
forgotten about the Tar Baby.

DC

--
the Omrud - 11 May 2009 10:02 GMT
>>>> Speaking of
>>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Song of the South?  The Sons of the South look to have been a very
> different outfit...

Song, yes that's the fellow.

Signature

David

Wood Avens - 11 May 2009 09:41 GMT
>>> Speaking of
>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot of sense to
>me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

Aren't we, though?  I was thinking that it might be a generational
thing, DC being yet a fresh-faced youth and all.  I may be making the
usual mistake of assuming my upbringing wasn't uncommon: we had a copy
of "Uncle Remus" at home and I'm fairly sure some of the stories were
read to us at school (late 1940s-1950s).  But on top of that I kept
running across references to Brer Rabbit (and to the Tar Baby) in
novels and in general reading.  Born an' bred in a briar patch.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

the Omrud - 11 May 2009 10:05 GMT
>>>> Speaking of
>>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> running across references to Brer Rabbit (and to the Tar Baby) in
> novels and in general reading.  Born an' bred in a briar patch.

... Born an' bred in a briar patch.

I'm only a couple of years older than DC, I think.  Was I a fresh-faced
youth in 2007?

Signature

David

Wood Avens - 11 May 2009 10:16 GMT
>> I was thinking that it might be a generational
>> thing, DC being yet a fresh-faced youth and all.  I may be making the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>I'm only a couple of years older than DC, I think.  Was I a fresh-faced
>youth in 2007?

All right, I admit I tend to use it to mean "younger than I am".  So
yes, you qualify.  You and DC both.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Mike Lyle - 11 May 2009 21:32 GMT
>>> I was thinking that it might be a generational
>>> thing, DC being yet a fresh-faced youth and all.  I may be making
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> All right, I admit I tend to use it to mean "younger than I am".  So
> yes, you qualify.  You and DC both.

This gobsmacking is bloody painful, and I bruise easily: please stop.
Uncle Remus was part of the everyday culture when I were a picken, and
British editions were legion. Is it really meaningless to use the briar
patch or the Tar Baby as a trope these days? (Cf, in a very different
vein, Topsy, who, in spite of what politicians seem to think, did NOT
"grow and grow": that was the Great Big Enormous Turnip, and that
alarming killer pancake.)

Signature

Mike.

R H Draney - 11 May 2009 22:24 GMT
Mike Lyle filted:

>This gobsmacking is bloody painful, and I bruise easily: please stop.
>Uncle Remus was part of the everyday culture when I were a picken, and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>"grow and grow": that was the Great Big Enormous Turnip, and that
>alarming killer pancake.)

ObStuckDoggerelSyndrome: does anyone recognize the following lines?...they just
popped into my head reading the remarks above, and I seem to associate them with
some kind of cartoon:

 My love for you just grows and grows,
 Like tadpoles wiggling between my toes.

....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 11 May 2009 22:34 GMT
>Mike Lyle filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>  My love for you just grows and grows,
>  Like tadpoles wiggling between my toes.

Just one Google result:
http://www.cyburbia.org/forums/showpost.php?s=0eb6629a2aba2caa2a5240dd6a6fc2f7&p
=191736&postcount=30


    sisterceleste
   Cyburbian
      
   A Love Poem
   
   My love for you just grows and grows
   like tadpoles wiggiling between your toes.
   __________________
   You darn tootin', I like fig newtons!

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Django Cat - 12 May 2009 00:08 GMT
> > > > I was thinking that it might be a generational
> > > > thing, DC being yet a fresh-faced youth and all.  I may be
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> and British editions were legion. Is it really meaningless to use the
> briar patch or the Tar Baby as a trope these days?

It is to me, but I'm perfectly willing to find I missed out on a whole
thing most Br other people know well.

DC

--
Amethyst Deceiver - 11 May 2009 11:47 GMT
> >>> Speaking of
> >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> running across references to Brer Rabbit (and to the Tar Baby) in
> novels and in general reading.  Born an' bred in a briar patch.

We were read some of the stories when I was at primary school, in the
early 70s. I believe I may be of a similar generation to DC.

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 19:27 GMT
> > >>> Speaking of
> > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> We were read some of the stories when I was at primary school, in the
> early 70s. I believe I may be of a similar generation to DC.

That's very sweet of you, Linz, but you have a few years of catching up
to do.

DC

--
Amethyst Deceiver - 12 May 2009 13:24 GMT
> > We were read some of the stories when I was at primary school, in the
> > early 70s. I believe I may be of a similar generation to DC.
>
> That's very sweet of you, Linz, but you have a few years of catching up
> to do.

I did say similar. And there's, what, 25 years to a generation?

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Garrett Wollman - 12 May 2009 19:55 GMT
>I did say similar. And there's, what, 25 years to a generation?

Strauss & Howe gave it approximately 20, but they definite a
generation by what sort of social upheaval was going on when people
were young adults rather than precisely when they were born.  (This
has the effect of giving generations different parameters in different
countries.)

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Nick Spalding - 12 May 2009 20:58 GMT
Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gucgmt$17j8$3@grapevine.csail.mit.edu>
on Tue, 12 May 2009 18:55:25 +0000 (UTC):

> >I did say similar. And there's, what, 25 years to a generation?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> has the effect of giving generations different parameters in different
> countries.)

My grandfather was born in 1958.  My eldest grandchildren were born in
1985.  That amounts to about 32 years per generation but it is probably
skewed by the fact that my father was the youngest of 5, my father was
35 when I was born and I was 29 when my eldest child was born.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Wood Avens - 12 May 2009 21:02 GMT
>My grandfather was born in 1958.  My eldest grandchildren were born in
>1985.  That amounts to about 32 years per generation

About five and a half, innit.  Precocious lot, you are.

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Skitt - 12 May 2009 22:03 GMT
>> My grandfather was born in 1958.  My eldest grandchildren were born
>> in 1985.  That amounts to about 32 years per generation
>
> About five and a half, innit.  Precocious lot, you are.

My grandfather was born in the early 1870s, I think.  My dad was born in
1901.  I was born in 1932.  My eldest was born in 1960.  Nothing further has
developed ...
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

R H Draney - 13 May 2009 02:23 GMT
Skitt filted:

>>> My grandfather was born in 1958.  My eldest grandchildren were born
>>> in 1985.  That amounts to about 32 years per generation
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>1901.  I was born in 1932.  My eldest was born in 1960.  Nothing further has
>developed ...

My father was born in 1935...my brother was born in 1961...my niece was born in
1974....

The interval fluctuates....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Steve Hayes - 13 May 2009 01:55 GMT
>My grandfather was born in 1958.  My eldest grandchildren were born in
>1985.  That amounts to about 32 years per generation but it is probably
>skewed by the fact that my father was the youngest of 5, my father was
>35 when I was born and I was 29 when my eldest child was born.

The mind boggles.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Django Cat - 12 May 2009 20:33 GMT
> > > We were read some of the stories when I was at primary school, in
> > > the early 70s. I believe I may be of a similar generation to DC.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I did say similar. And there's, what, 25 years to a generation?

Don't push it, chuck. ;-)

DC

--
Jerry Friedman - 11 May 2009 21:04 GMT
...

> I may be making the
> usual mistake of assuming my upbringing wasn't uncommon: we had a copy
> of "Uncle Remus" at home and I'm fairly sure some of the stories were
> read to us at school (late 1940s-1950s).

I should hope so!  I think schools in our culture(s) are responsible
for making sure every student knows about the Tar Baby, the Fox and
the Grapes, the Slough of Despond, and many other things.

> But on top of that I kept
> running across references to Brer Rabbit (and to the Tar Baby) in
> novels and in general reading.  Born an' bred in a briar patch.

Nobody ever gets that right, including me.

“‘Bred en bawn in a brier-patch, Brer Fox—bred en bawn in a brier-
patch!’ en wid dat he skip out des ez lively ez a cricket in de
embers.”

http://www.uncleremus.com/sharprabbit.html

In http://www.uncleremus.com/tarbaby.html Uncle Remus says "born", not
"bawn".  The perils of eye dialect (in some sense).

--
Jerry Friedman
Nick Spalding - 11 May 2009 11:55 GMT
the Omrud wrote, in <W_QNl.27261$OO7.18358@text.news.virginmedia.com>
on Mon, 11 May 2009 08:05:10 GMT:

> >> Speaking of
> >> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot of sense to
> me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

Brer Rabbit was part of my childhood reading in the 1940s and I am sure
it didn't come to me via an American source.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 11 May 2009 12:38 GMT
>the Omrud wrote, in <W_QNl.27261$OO7.18358@text.news.virginmedia.com>
> on Mon, 11 May 2009 08:05:10 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Brer Rabbit was part of my childhood reading in the 1940s and I am sure
>it didn't come to me via an American source.

Ditto (1940s/50s).

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Mike Mooney - 11 May 2009 14:49 GMT
On 11 May, 12:38, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >the Omrud wrote, in <W_QNl.27261$OO7.18...@text.news.virginmedia.com>
> > on Mon, 11 May 2009 08:05:10 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Ditto (1940s/50s).

Ditto (1950s/60s)

Mike M
James Hogg - 11 May 2009 14:57 GMT
>On 11 May, 12:38, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
>wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>Ditto (1950s/60s)

Same here, same time.

Signature

James

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 19:44 GMT
> > On 11 May, 12:38, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
> > wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Same here, same time.

I feel I've missed out, big time.

DC

--
Frank ess - 11 May 2009 20:05 GMT
>>> On 11 May, 12:38, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
>>> <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> DC

So will generations, who will not learn of the Tar Baby nor of Little
Black Sambo. Is that a good thing?

"Song of the South", in my 78-RPM experience. Available on DVD.

Signature

Frank ess
Zip-a-dee-doo-da-ing

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 20:43 GMT
> > > > On 11 May, 12:38, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
> >>><m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> So will generations, who will not learn of the Tar Baby nor of Little
> Black Sambo. Is that a good thing?

In the case of LBS, almost certainly 'yes'.

DC
--
Mike Lyle - 11 May 2009 21:36 GMT
>>>>> On 11 May, 12:38, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
>>>>> <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> In the case of LBS, almost certainly 'yes'.

Yes, though he /is/ the hero, which lends a faint colour of doubt to
one's decision-making. Uncle Remus, though, is a great loss.

Signature

Mike.

Sara Lorimer - 14 May 2009 15:18 GMT
> I feel I've missed out, big time.

You can catch up:

<http://www.kiddierecords.com/archive/week_04.htm>

Signature

SML

CDB - 14 May 2009 16:19 GMT
>> I feel I've missed out, big time.

> You can catch up:

> <http://www.kiddierecords.com/archive/week_04.htm>

Amazing how much Uncle Remus sounds like Chef (RIP) from South Park.
I wonder if Isaac Hayes (RIP) did that on purpose.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_(South_Park) >

I've left a space after the closing parenthesis, to see if that has
any effect on the deletion problem.
CDB - 14 May 2009 17:02 GMT
[channelling Walt]

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef_(South_Park) >

> I've left a space after the closing parenthesis, to see if that has
> any effect on the deletion problem.

Nope.  It's not much trouble to copy and paste the title of the
non-existent article into the search box and close the parenthesis,
though.
Paul Wolff - 14 May 2009 18:41 GMT
>CDB wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>non-existent article into the search box and close the parenthesis,
>though.

It didn't help me either (another Turnpike user).

RFC 2396 (<URL:http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2396.txt>) says, in part:

  URI are often transmitted through formats that do not provide a clear
  context for their interpretation.  For example, there are many
  occasions when URI are included in plain text; examples include text
  sent in electronic mail, USENET news messages, and, most importantly,
  printed on paper.  In such cases, it is important to be able to
  delimit the URI from the rest of the text, and in particular from
  punctuation marks that might be mistaken for part of the URI.

  In practice, URI are delimited in a variety of ways, but usually
  within double-quotes "http://test.com/", angle brackets
  <http://test.com/>, or just using whitespace

                            http://test.com/

  These wrappers do not form part of the URI.

URI = Uniform Resource Identifier(s).

I see no objection in that RFC to the use of the ) character in a URL,
but I can see from a web search that other software has similar
difficulty in deciding if it is external or internal punctuation when )
occurs at the end of the string.
Signature

Paul

Django Cat - 15 May 2009 20:44 GMT
> > I feel I've missed out, big time.
> >
> You can catch up:
>
> <http://www.kiddierecords.com/archive/week_04.htm>

Oh, that's a treasure for my new-found Remus researches, Sara!  [stops
doing boring work things and listens with rapture]

DC

--
Robin Bignall - 11 May 2009 22:07 GMT
>the Omrud wrote, in <W_QNl.27261$OO7.18358@text.news.virginmedia.com>
> on Mon, 11 May 2009 08:05:10 GMT:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Brer Rabbit was part of my childhood reading in the 1940s and I am sure
>it didn't come to me via an American source.

Me, too.  I'm wondering if the tales were read on the BBC sometime in
that period.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

musika - 11 May 2009 16:23 GMT
>>> Speaking of
>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> knowing all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot
> of sense to me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

I had an Uncle Remus book in the 50s. Don't know anything about GIs, though.

Signature

Ray
UK

Nick - 11 May 2009 19:09 GMT
>>> Speaking of
>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> knowing all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot
> of sense to me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

Whatever you do, don't make me read Uncle Remus.  Please don't make me
read Uncle Remus.
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          development version: http://canalplan.eu

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 20:46 GMT
> >>> Speaking of
> >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Whatever you do, don't make me read Uncle Remus.  Please don't make me
> read Uncle Remus.

Here you are, then, Nick:

http://tinyurl.com/osdcwj

I can't understand a word of it.

DC
--
Django Cat - 11 May 2009 21:13 GMT
> > >>> Speaking of
> > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> DC

PS. And I think if I'd been asked to read this stuff in infants school
I'd have wept long and bitter tears.

--
the Omrud - 11 May 2009 21:31 GMT
>>>>> Speaking of
>>>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> I can't understand a word of it.

Gosh, is that where they got the Initial Teaching Alphabet <spit>?

Signature

David
in a Hilton

Jerry Friedman - 11 May 2009 23:05 GMT
> > >>> Speaking of
> > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> > Whatever you do, don't make me read Uncle Remus.  Please don't make me
> > read Uncle Remus.

And please make me watch the "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" scene, over and over.

> Here you are, then, Nick:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/osdcwj
>
> I can't understand a word of it.

[and]

> PS. And I think if I'd been asked to read this stuff in infants school
> I'd have wept long and bitter tears.

I have the feeling I read it in a partially devernacularized version.

--
Jerry Friedman
Django Cat - 11 May 2009 23:44 GMT
> > > >>> Speaking of
> > > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> I have the feeling I read it in a partially devernacularized version.

If you find a link, Jerry, please post it, as I'd really like to read
the stories.  A couple of paragraphs of Harris's vernacular was enough.

DC

--
R H Draney - 12 May 2009 00:18 GMT
Django Cat filted:

>> I have the feeling I read it in a partially devernacularized version.
>
>If you find a link, Jerry, please post it, as I'd really like to read
>the stories.  A couple of paragraphs of Harris's vernacular was enough.

Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone" and "jumper" to
"sweater" and people start screaming about "dumbing down"....r

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Django Cat - 12 May 2009 08:47 GMT
> Django Cat filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about "dumbing
> down"....r

Two different things there, though.  One - sweater - is just
localisation, but the other is assuming that young readers won't have
heard the expression, 'philosophers stone' or recognise its connection
with alchemy - which is not unreasonable - but that they won't want to
find out what it means either, which is patronising.

DC

--
Wood Avens - 12 May 2009 16:08 GMT
>> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone" and
>> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about "dumbing
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>with alchemy - which is not unreasonable - but that they won't want to
>find out what it means either, which is patronising.

I'd be quite surprised if most British kids had heard of the
philosopher's stone before HP.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 May 2009 16:21 GMT
>>> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
>>> and "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I'd be quite surprised if most British kids had heard of the
> philosopher's stone before HP.

And of those who knew of it, how many would have thought of it as
something giving eternal life?  I learned of it probably in high
school, but only as having the power to transmute lead into gold.  It
wasn't until I looked it up after reading the book that I learned it
also had the other story attached to it.  My initial reaction was "Why
is she using an established name for something new?"

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Paul Wolff - 12 May 2009 17:14 GMT
>Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>also had the other story attached to it.  My initial reaction was "Why
>is she using an established name for something new?"

The brief biography of Nicholas Flamel written by Charles Mackay in his
"Extraordinary Popular Delusions" says that at an early stage of his
life Nicholas "became desperately addicted to the study of alchemy, and
thought of nothing but the philosopher's stone, the elixir of life, and
the universal alkahest".

There's a comma problem in there. Did Nicholas think of two things, or
three? The alkahest is distinct from the other two by any standards. I
think there are three items in that list, though it's not impossible
that the first two describe different properties of one substance
(trying hard not to think of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity,
now). Although an elixir is often a liquid, it isn't obliged to be.

And as a general warning to versifiers, Mackay remarks that before this
time Flamel practised as a letter-writer and copyist on the corner of
the Rue de Marivaux in Paris, "but he hardly made profits enough to keep
body and soul together. To mend his fortunes he tried poetry; but this
was a more wretched occupation still." Ahem.

Fortunately, he eventually acquired for two florins a book of three time
seven leaves, written by the Patriarch Abraham. It had passed through
the hands of Moses, Joshua, Solomon and Esdras, and liberated from the
Temple by Tutus, before it fell into Flamel's hands. Fortunately Abraham
had written it in Latin, and it contained all the instructions for using
the philosopher's stone, assuming that the reader already had possession
of it. It took Nicholas until he was eighty to find the secret, but that
was rather late in life for the elixir to take full effect, and he only
survived until the age of 116.
Signature

Paul

CDB - 12 May 2009 20:18 GMT
["philospher's stone", the result of too long sitting]

> The brief biography of Nicholas Flamel written by Charles Mackay in
> his "Extraordinary Popular Delusions" says that at an early stage
> of his life Nicholas "became desperately addicted to the study of
> alchemy, and thought of nothing but the philosopher's stone, the
> elixir of life, and the universal alkahest".

> There's a comma problem in there. Did Nicholas think of two things,
> or three? The alkahest is distinct from the other two by any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of the Trinity, now). Although an elixir is often a liquid, it
> isn't obliged to be.

> And as a general warning to versifiers, Mackay remarks that before
> this time Flamel practised as a letter-writer and copyist on the
> corner of the Rue de Marivaux in Paris, "but he hardly made profits
> enough to keep body and soul together. To mend his fortunes he
> tried poetry; but this was a more wretched occupation still." Ahem.

> Fortunately, he eventually acquired for two florins a book of three
> time seven leaves, written by the Patriarch Abraham. It had passed
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> rather late in life for the elixir to take full effect, and he only
> survived until the age of 116.

Lovely account, which I couldn't bring myself to snip.  Is it you or
Mackay who is responsible for my Stuck Image of corps of Anglican
bishops, spectacles agleam with goodwill, swarming the Temple Mount
for unconsidered valuta?
Paul Wolff - 12 May 2009 22:44 GMT
>Paul Wolff wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>bishops, spectacles agleam with goodwill, swarming the Temple Mount
>for unconsidered valuta?

I write 'Tutus' because I can't tope properly.  Ascribe it to an
irregularity of the phalanges, and supper waiting on the table for
'post' to be pushed.  For those that remain baffled, read 'Titus'. And
you may stick a 'was' before 'liberated' while you're at it.
Signature

Paul

CDB - 13 May 2009 14:17 GMT
>> Paul Wolff wrote:

["philospher's stone", the movie]

>>> Fortunately, he eventually acquired for two florins a book of
>>> three time seven leaves, written by the Patriarch Abraham. It had
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>> rather late in life for the elixir to take full effect, and he
>>> only survived until the age of 116.

>> Lovely account, which I couldn't bring myself to snip.  Is it you
>> or Mackay who is responsible for my Stuck Image of corps of
>> Anglican bishops, spectacles agleam with goodwill, swarming the
>> Temple Mount for unconsidered valuta?

> I write 'Tutus' because I can't tope properly.  Ascribe it to an
> irregularity of the phalanges, and supper waiting on the table for
> 'post' to be pushed.  For those that remain baffled, read 'Titus'.
> And you may stick a 'was' before 'liberated' while you're at it.

Perfectly understandable.  If the discussion ever turns to nuances of
the word "atrocity", I will post an example of my own uncorrected
output.  The bishops would have been more fun if they had been copied
and pasted from the book, is all.
Amethyst Deceiver - 13 May 2009 13:09 GMT
> >> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone" and
> >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about "dumbing
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I'd be quite surprised if most British kids had heard of the
> philosopher's stone before HP.

I'd heard of it as a child. Which was before HP.

Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

Django Cat - 13 May 2009 13:15 GMT
> > >> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
> > and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I'd heard of it as a child. Which was before HP.

My Dad bought his first car on HP.

--
James Hogg - 13 May 2009 13:39 GMT
>> > >> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
>> > and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>My Dad bought his first car on HP.

We had a bet here as to which would come up first:
brown sauce or the never-never.

I lost.

Signature

James

Pat Durkin - 13 May 2009 13:58 GMT
>>>>>> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
>>>> and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I lost.
Was there some kind of licensing going on with TVs and refrigerators
(and presumably other such expensive consumer goods) in the late '50s or
early '60s in the UK?  I can recall my English friend back then
discussing HP, but it seems to me there was some other restriction on
purchasing besides simple finances.  Maybe a deliberate restriction on
availability?  Was the VAT in effect back then?  Were there factories
building such things in which the unions and industries were being
protected?  This was, supposedly, after austerity restrictions were
relaxed or removed entirely.
James Hogg - 13 May 2009 14:18 GMT
>>>>>>> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
>>>>> and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>protected?  This was, supposedly, after austerity restrictions were
>relaxed or removed entirely.

I don't remember any restrictions other than shortage of cash.
VAT came later (1970s?). I can't remember what it replaced.

Signature

James

Nick Spalding - 13 May 2009 14:41 GMT
James Hogg wrote, in <kohl05d9nhuk707bgj7qufll32ktkknhm2@4ax.com>
on Wed, 13 May 2009 15:18:33 +0200:

> >>>>>>> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
> >>>>> and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> I don't remember any restrictions other than shortage of cash.
> VAT came later (1970s?). I can't remember what it replaced.

Purchase Tax.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

James Hogg - 13 May 2009 14:50 GMT
>James Hogg wrote, in <kohl05d9nhuk707bgj7qufll32ktkknhm2@4ax.com>
> on Wed, 13 May 2009 15:18:33 +0200:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>Purchase Tax.

Thanks. That term enabled me find that the change to VAT took
place in 1973, which I should have known anyway because the
change was required by the admission of the UK to the Eurovision
Song Contest.

Signature

James

LFS - 13 May 2009 14:53 GMT
>> James Hogg wrote, in <kohl05d9nhuk707bgj7qufll32ktkknhm2@4ax.com>
>> on Wed, 13 May 2009 15:18:33 +0200:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> change was required by the admission of the UK to the Eurovision
> Song Contest.

<snort> Damn, tea up nose.

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(emulate St. George for email)

James Hogg - 13 May 2009 15:10 GMT
>> Thanks. That term enabled me find that the change to VAT took
>> place in 1973, which I should have known anyway because the
>> change was required by the admission of the UK to the Eurovision
>> Song Contest.
>
><snort> Damn, tea up nose.

Sorry about that. I'm still suffering from the bits I saw of last
night's semifinal. It was presented by a man and woman who were
lumbered with the most pathetic script you could imagine (the
jokes were probably written by Putin himself). They SHOUTED
everything, quite forgetting the purpose of the large microphones
they carried in their hands. And it took me some time to realise
the bloke was speaking French and not Russian.

Nul points.

Signature

James

Peter Brandt Nielsen - 13 May 2009 18:28 GMT
> Sorry about that. I'm still suffering from the bits I saw of last
> night's semifinal. It was presented by a man and woman who were
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Nul points.

The good news is, they'll be doing the next two telecasts too.

Is Wogan still doing the BBC commentary?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 May 2009 18:41 GMT
>> Sorry about that. I'm still suffering from the bits I saw of last
>> night's semifinal. It was presented by a man and woman who were
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Is Wogan still doing the BBC commentary?

No.

Graham Norton has taken over.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Norton

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Peter Brandt Nielsen - 13 May 2009 19:21 GMT
Peter Duncanson wrote:

> No.
>
> Graham Norton has taken over.

I like him as well. I might see if I can watch online.
Mike Lyle - 13 May 2009 19:52 GMT
[...]
>>> Nul points.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Graham Norton has taken over.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Norton

Godalmighty! I had no intention of watching the hideous process, but
that would have been enough to stop me. Norton is one of those
performers like Bruce Forsyth and Jo Brand who make me feel ritually
impure.

Signature

Mike.

LFS - 13 May 2009 20:04 GMT
> [...]
>>>> Nul points.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> performers like Bruce Forsyth and Jo Brand who make me feel ritually
> impure.

Don't you knock our Brucie: he's a National Treasure. Our local Lib Dem
candidate looks rather like him. He just knocked at the door and got an
earful from me for interrupting my viewing of Corrie. The Christian Aid
collecting lady had caused me to miss the first few minutes so I was
already in GOW mode but I don't think he expected a banshee cry of "Go
away, I'll vote for you anyway, we don't need to talk about it!"

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

R H Draney - 14 May 2009 03:02 GMT
LFS filted:

>Don't you knock our Brucie: he's a National Treasure. Our local Lib Dem
>candidate looks rather like him. He just knocked at the door and got an
>earful from me for interrupting my viewing of Corrie. The Christian Aid
>collecting lady had caused me to miss the first few minutes so I was
>already in GOW mode but I don't think he expected a banshee cry of "Go
>away, I'll vote for you anyway, we don't need to talk about it!"

Sometimes it's easier just to turn the garden hose on them....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Don Aitken - 13 May 2009 15:39 GMT
>James Hogg wrote, in <kohl05d9nhuk707bgj7qufll32ktkknhm2@4ax.com>
> on Wed, 13 May 2009 15:18:33 +0200:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>Purchase Tax.

The rate of which could be varied (within limits) by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer by Order. This was known as the "regulator" and was used
as a means of controlling consumer spending. In addition, these Orders
could specify the minimum proportion of the total price of hire
purchase items which had to be paid by way of deposit (there was
always a deposit - none of that "order now and pay nothing until ... "
business).

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Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 May 2009 14:45 GMT
>>>>>>>> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
>>>>>> and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
>I don't remember any restrictions other than shortage of cash.

For a kitchen appliance there was sometimes a problem finding space in
which to install it. Kitchens were not large.

>VAT came later (1970s?). I can't remember what it replaced.

Purchase Tax.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Nick Spalding - 13 May 2009 14:40 GMT
James Hogg wrote, in <rofl059dp40c36f9v8qnrm45kpu4q50f5l@4ax.com>
on Wed, 13 May 2009 14:39:09 +0200:

> >> > >> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's stone"
> >> > and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming about
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I lost.

Or calculators and printers.
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Django Cat - 14 May 2009 08:18 GMT
> >> > >> Oh, sure, but change "philosopher's stone" to "sorcerer's
> stone" >> > and >> "jumper" to "sweater" and people start screaming
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I lost.

We're converts to Reggae Reggae.

DC
--
Wood Avens - 14 May 2009 10:00 GMT
>We had a bet here as to which would come up first:
>brown sauce or the never-never.
>
>I lost.

Who's this "we", Kemo Sabe?

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

James Hogg - 14 May 2009 10:10 GMT
>>We had a bet here as to which would come up first:
>>brown sauce or the never-never.
>>
>>I lost.
>
>Who's this "we", Kemo Sabe?

Well, Tonta, it was a majestic plural alluding to
my two cerebral hemispheres.

Signature

James

Wood Avens - 14 May 2009 17:39 GMT
>>>We had a bet here as to which would come up first:
>>>brown sauce or the never-never.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Well, Tonta, it was a majestic plural alluding to
>my two cerebral hemispheres.

I see.  I hazard, in that case, that you identify with the losing
side.

Signature

Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Jerry Friedman - 12 May 2009 01:50 GMT
> > > > >>> Speaking of
> > > > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> If you find a link, Jerry, please post it, as I'd really like to read
> the stories.  A couple of paragraphs of Harris's vernacular was enough.

Here are some stories.

http://www.angelfire.com/co4/raggbagg/BrerTales.htm

Here are "The Wonderful Tar-Baby" and "How Mr. Rabbit Was Too Sharp
For Mr. Fox", the two most famous stories (and the only ones I know
anything about).

http://www.mythfolklore.net/3043mythfolklore/reading/remus/pages/01.htm

(Hitting the arrow takes you to the same thing in Harris's original,
and hitting it again continues the "modernized" story.)

These are from a 1999 version.  The one I read as a little boy,
probably in the '60s, had more AAVE, I vaguely remember.

As I recall, one reason for "modernizing" these stories was that the
originals got some condescending laughs out of AAVE, and perpetuated
stereotypes of black people who said ""How duz yo' sym'tums seem ter
segashuate?"  Now that singers and rappers are selling millions of
disks in AAVE to slightly older children, I think we can admit that
some African Americans speak AAVE at least some of the time.  There
may still be no need for "segashuate", though.

--
Jerry Friedman
mike.a.schwab@gmail.com - 12 May 2009 02:34 GMT
> Here are some stories.
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> --
> Jerry Friedman

http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page
and search for 'uncle remus' in the title field
Jerry Friedman - 13 May 2009 06:17 GMT
On May 11, 7:34 pm, mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Here are some stories.
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page
> and search for 'uncleremus' in the title field

Thanks, but all I found there was the originals.  DC was looking for
versions with less dialect.

--
Jerry Friedman
Lars Eighner - 13 May 2009 06:50 GMT
In our last episode,
<19241499-a148-43e2-9ee7-758bf88c24b2@e23g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented Jerry Friedman broadcast on alt.usage.english:

> On May 11, 7:34 pm, mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>> http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page
>> and search for 'uncleremus' in the title field

> Thanks, but all I found there was the originals.  DC was looking for
> versions with less dialect.

I'm coming in late, so someone may have mentioned this.  The tar baby story
can be found in many collections of West African folk tales.  I cannot now
locate the title of the Oxford anthology in which I read it in the '70s, but
google pops up a number of very promising new compilations.  The problem
with the original is that it is probably too sexual for American school
boards and Spider, the original trickster character from whom Brer Rabbit is
derived, is rather more naughty and morally ambiguous than might be desired.
(Translation for geeks: he's neutral chaotic.)

I'd also suggest scanning for archives of American folkloric societies.  It
is true enough that they will probably call these *Negro* folk tales, but it
may be expected that they treat the material with some respect.

Signature

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           112 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
  Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.

Jerry Friedman - 14 May 2009 18:51 GMT
> In our last episode,
> <19241499-a148-43e2-9ee7-758bf88c2...@e23g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> I'm coming in late, so someone may have mentioned this.  The tar baby story
> can be found in many collections of West African folk tales.

I may have to look for that, so thanks for the interesting
information.

> I cannot now
> locate the title of the Oxford anthology in which I read it in the '70s, but
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> derived, is rather more naughty and morally ambiguous than might be desired.
> (Translation for geeks: he's neutral chaotic.)
...

I'd say Brer Rabbit is pretty chaotic neutral too.

--
Jerry Friedman
Lars Eighner - 14 May 2009 22:59 GMT
In our last episode,
<f01fe0a0-6244-4c81-9cd8-0f1da517d1c2@y34g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, the
lovely and talented Jerry Friedman broadcast on alt.usage.english:

>> I cannot now locate the title of the Oxford anthology in which I read it
>> in the '70s, but google pops up a number of very promising new
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> neutral chaotic.)
> ...

> I'd say Brer Rabbit is pretty chaotic neutral too.

I should know better than to attempt stuff like that without consulting the
resident authority, but he is very busy with Final Fantasy IX right now.

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       Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com
           114 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
  Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.

Django Cat - 13 May 2009 10:40 GMT
> On May 11, 7:34 pm, mike.a.sch...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Thanks, but all I found there was the originals.  DC was looking for
> versions with less dialect.

I done got as far as 'Brer Rabbit to the rescue', thank-ee.

Brer Cat

--
Django Cat - 12 May 2009 09:38 GMT
> > > > > >>> Speaking of
> > > > > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> For Mr. Fox", the two most famous stories (and the only ones I know
> anything about).

What a brilliant opening to the first story:

"One spring it was so pretty that folks who had never heard of love,
didn't want to be in love, or had given up on it fell in love like it
was a hole in the ground. Them kind of springs are dangerous. I reckon
you too young to know what I'm talking about, but you will one day, and
the Lord help you then."

OK, I'm hooked! [reads on]

DC
--
Mike Lyle - 12 May 2009 20:04 GMT
[...]

> As I recall, one reason for "modernizing" these stories was that the
> originals got some condescending laughs out of AAVE, and perpetuated
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> some African Americans speak AAVE at least some of the time.  There
> may still be no need for "segashuate", though.

Damn. These days that's the only Remusism I still actually use. People
do think I'm barking, of course.

Signature

Mike.

CDB - 12 May 2009 20:37 GMT
> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> some of the time.  There may still be no need for "segashuate",
>> though.

> Damn. These days that's the only Remusism I still actually use.
> People do think I'm barking, of course.

How do you pronounce the "a", / @/ or / eI/?   Wikipedia, which has an
article on the subject I think is pretty good, says it's Remus for
"sagaciate".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%27er_Rabbit

As I get older, I find I'm less often barking and more often tooting.
Mike Lyle - 12 May 2009 22:53 GMT
>> [...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> article on the subject I think is pretty good, says it's Remus for
> "sagaciate".

Neither: mine's /&/, as in "hat".

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%27er_Rabbit
>
> As I get older, I find I'm less often barking and more often tooting.

Bec up the creek, eh?

Signature

Mike.

CDB - 13 May 2009 03:53 GMT
["segashuate"]

>>> Damn. These days that's the only Remusism I still actually use.
>>> People do think I'm barking, of course.
>>
>> How do you pronounce the "a", / @/ or / eI/?   Wikipedia, which
>> has an article on the subject I think is pretty good, says it's
>> Remus for "sagaciate".

> Neither: mine's /&/, as in "hat".

Quite so.  I always want the @ to mean "ash", but it never does.

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%27er_Rabbit

>> As I get older, I find I'm less often barking and more often
>> tooting.

> Bec up the creek, eh?

Damn tooting.
Jerry Friedman - 13 May 2009 06:19 GMT
On May 12, 1:04 pm, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Damn. These days that's the only Remusism I still actually use. People
> do think I'm barking, of course.

Do they call you Brer Dog?

Anyway, you know perfectly well what I meant.

--
Brer Hatstand
Ildhund - 13 May 2009 12:13 GMT
Mike Lyle wrote...
> [...]
>> There may still be no need for "segashuate", though.
>
> Damn. These days that's the only Remusism I still actually use.
> People do think I'm barking, of course.

Sounds more like sneezing to me.
Signature

Noel

Nick - 12 May 2009 07:40 GMT
>> > >>> Speaking of
>> > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> I have the feeling I read it in a partially devernacularized version.

I read it when young; 10ish perhaps. I do remember finding the
vernacular heavy going, but you do get attuned to that sort of thing.
No worse than I remember Feersum Endjinn being.  To quote Wikipedia
quoting it:

   Woak up. Got dresd. Had brekfast. Spoke wif Ergates thi ant who sed
   itz juss been wurk wurk wurk 4 u lately master Bascule, Y dont u ½ a
   holiday? & I agreed & that woz how we decided we otter go 2 c Mr
   Zoliparia in thi I-ball ov thi gargoyle Rosbrith.
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Tom Keats - 15 May 2009 04:34 GMT
>>> > >>> Speaking of
>>> > >>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>     holiday? & I agreed & that woz how we decided we otter go 2 c Mr
>     Zoliparia in thi I-ball ov thi gargoyle Rosbrith.

Lissinen'  to   me  granda'  (ay  roostic  'oo  'oiled  frym

Toice'rst,  Sx  in  the  1890's,)  wuz  ay  touf  slowg,

too.

It took me months to figure out the "'OyWee-ens" of which he
spoke in his gutteral drawl were "Hawaiians."

The moral content of the Uncle Remus fables is actually quite
on-the-spot.  To this day, Joel Chandler Harris arouses
racial controversy, and yet his Uncle Remus works were about
the endearing (and highly predictable) foibles of ~humanity~,
not race.  That's why his characters were creatures rather
than human beans.  It kept it generic.

Harris was/is delightfully insidious and yet gently & kindly
obliging to people's sensitivities with his satire.

Now, /that's/ art.

cheers,
    Tom

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Robert Bannister - 12 May 2009 02:15 GMT
>>> Speaking of
>>> stickiness, though, may I venture to remind you of the Tar Baby?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot of sense to
> me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

I saw the film "Song of the South" round about when it came out in 1946.
After that, I read a lot of Brer Rabbit stories.

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Rob Bannister
zip a dee doo dah

Adam Funk - 12 May 2009 12:25 GMT
> BrE folk (apparently including DC) are not in general familiar with Brer
> Rabbit and his friends, unless perhaps they are fans of "Sons of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> all about the Tar Baby, although it didn't make an awful lot of sense to
> me in the English Midlands in the late 50s.

I'm not sure they made an enormous amount of since in the USA in the
1970s.

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A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Maybe because some people are too annoyed by top-posting.
Q: Why do I not get an answer to my question(s)?

Steve Hayes - 11 May 2009 08:16 GMT
>> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>world standard, but I'm fed up with US-default posters suggesting it's
>some quaint f***ing curiosity.

Every dialect (including US ones) seems quaint and curious to those who don't
speak it.

This even applies negatively -- think, for example, of the quaint and curious
US aversion to "niggardly", and how het up they get about it.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Django Cat - 11 May 2009 19:34 GMT
> >> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> >> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Every dialect (including US ones) seems quaint and curious to those
> who don't speak it.

Somebody told me today that many people in the US had said pigs would
fly before a black president was ever elected.

Then swine flu.

DC
--
Django Cat - 11 May 2009 00:28 GMT
> > > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> > > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "terribly"?  "affectation"?  Are the English not permitted a dialect
> of, er, English?

And another thing, while I'm up for it (sorry about this, David).

Why oh why are all the nutters on AUE Americans?  We have a proud
tradition in this country of eccentricity, ranging from the mildly
disturbed all the way up the stark raving hatstand.  Yet UK posters on
AUE seem to spend an awful lot of time reasoning calmly with completely
certifiable Americans.  Why can't we have some genuine British nutters
coming out with bizarre and offensive ideas for once?

(This is not to suggest all American posters are nutters; the vast
majority of US posters on AUE are wise, witty and well-informed.  But
hey, guys, you got a couple of real winger dingers there!).

I may have to start a campaign.  Bring back the British Nutter!

DC
--
R H Draney - 11 May 2009 02:54 GMT
Django Cat filted:

>Why oh why are all the nutters on AUE Americans?  We have a proud
>tradition in this country of eccentricity, ranging from the mildly
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>I may have to start a campaign.  Bring back the British Nutter!

Sorry...nobody's been able to reach him for almost ten years now:

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/380082.stm

....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Django Cat - 11 May 2009 07:27 GMT
> Django Cat filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> ....r

A mere amateur.

--
R H Draney - 11 May 2009 08:45 GMT
Django Cat filted:

>> Django Cat filted:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>A mere amateur.

You say amateur; I say bellwether....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Django Cat - 11 May 2009 09:37 GMT
> Django Cat filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You say amateur; I say bellwether....r

Screaming Lord Sutch is a sheep?

--
Jeffrey Turner - 11 May 2009 16:35 GMT
>> Django Cat filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Screaming Lord Sutch is a sheep?

A sheep in leopardskin clothing, apparently.

--Jeff

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Jeffrey Turner - 11 May 2009 16:33 GMT
> Django Cat filted:
>> Why oh why are all the nutters on AUE Americans?  We have a proud
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>   http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/380082.stm

Which leads to the question:  Has the party continued on without him?

--Jeff

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The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire

Robin Bignall - 11 May 2009 22:13 GMT
>> Django Cat filted:
>>> Why oh why are all the nutters on AUE Americans?  We have a proud
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Which leads to the question:  Has the party continued on without him?

They certainly have a website: http://www.omrlp.com/
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

tony cooper - 10 May 2009 00:31 GMT
>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Jobst Brandt

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Steve Hayes - 10 May 2009 05:52 GMT
>> A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
>> talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>used although, depending on which of their four languages is local, it
>could be German, Italian, French, or Romansch usage.

A bicycle is often called a "bike" for short (see the thread about
"refrigerator" and "fridge").

That may be a terribly British affectation, but it is quite common. When
motorised bicycles came along, they were called "motorbikes", and they were
often also called "bikes" and those who rode them were called bikers.

My son had a motorbike, and he usually called it a "bike".

So "push bike" was used when one wanted to make it clear that one was
referring to a bike that relied on human motive power rather than to a
motorbike.

Something similar happened to tape. The first tape recorders recorded sound,
and the recording medium weas called "tape". Later pictures were also recorded
on tape so "audio tape" becan to be used when one wanted to make clear that
one was referring to a sound and not a picture recording. Similarly, when
television came along, Brits often referred to "steam radio" for the sound
kind.

There was a time, however, when "motorbike" was U and the plebs used to refer
to "motorcycles".

So perhaps "bike" is pretentious after all.

And always remember, it's only human nature for dogs to chase motorbikes.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Django Cat - 10 May 2009 08:27 GMT
> From: jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org
> Subject: Re: Push bike
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.

Not if you're British it isn't, pal.

Welcome to the group.

DC
--
John Kane - 11 May 2009 14:57 GMT
On May 9, 3:59 pm, jobst.bra...@stanfordalumni.org wrote:
> > A push bike typically refers to bicycle (human powered).  I was
> > talking to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Push bike is a terribly British affectation.  

It may have a British orgin but it is not an affectation in Canada,
just a somewhat unused term. I was thinking that it might just be an
anachronism.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
D_Frumious_B@ndersnat.ch - 09 May 2009 22:11 GMT
In rec.bicycles.misc John Kane <jrkrideau@gmail.com> wrote:
> A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered).  I was talking
> to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in the shop to
> look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.

> It's not an expression that I see or hear used frequently and I was
> wondering if anyone has an idea of the origins of the phrase?

  I was recently in a situation where I found myself referred to as a
"pedal cyclist," and my bike as a "pedal cycle."
  I can understand how some people might be confused by the word
"bike," since motorcyclists have stolen it from us.  But to me "bicycle"
is a plain, unambiguous term.

Bill

  __o   | I used to think that I was cool, running around on fossil
fuel
_`\(,_  | Until I saw what I was doing was driving down the road to
ruin.
(_)/ (_) |                                            - James Taylor
Robert Bannister - 10 May 2009 00:34 GMT
> In rec.bicycles.misc John Kane <jrkrideau@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered).  I was talking
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "bike," since motorcyclists have stolen it from us.  But to me "bicycle"
> is a plain, unambiguous term.

Except when it has a small motor attached. My newspaper tells me that
electric bicycles are all the rage now.

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Rob Bannister

terryc - 19 May 2009 14:57 GMT
> Except when it has a small motor attached. My newspaper tells me that
> electric bicycles are all the rage now.

You want to be careful they are not talking about electric scotters with
dodgy pedals attatched.
Pat Durkin - 10 May 2009 16:11 GMT
>   I was recently in a situation where I found myself referred to as a
> "pedal cyclist," and my bike as a "pedal cycle."
>   I can understand how some people might be confused by the word
> "bike," since motorcyclists have stolen it from us.  But to me
> "bicycle" is a plain, unambiguous term.

Who's "us"?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 10 May 2009 17:06 GMT
>>   I was recently in a situation where I found myself referred to as a
>> "pedal cyclist," and my bike as a "pedal cycle."
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>Who's "us"?

This thread is crossposted to rec.bicycles.misc so I guess "us" means
"us bicyclists".

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Don Wiss - 15 May 2009 03:34 GMT
>   I was recently in a situation where I found myself referred to as a
>"pedal cyclist," and my bike as a "pedal cycle."
>   I can understand how some people might be confused by the word
>"bike," since motorcyclists have stolen it from us.  But to me "bicycle"
>is a plain, unambiguous term.

On Bermuda they have taken cycle away from us. A cycle there refers to a
scooter. You have to be very specific and call them a pedal cycle.

I don't recall what a bicycle there referred to.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Tom Keats - 10 May 2009 01:31 GMT
> A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered).  I was talking
> to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in the shop to
> look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.
>
> It's not an expression that I see or hear used frequently and I was
> wondering if anyone has an idea of the origins of the phrase?

I dunno the answer to your question, but to me the term almost
sounds derogatorily diminuitive to me, as if to connote some
supposed ineffectualness or inconsequentialness of bicycles,
since the word: "push" suggests labour and effort.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising you for
your use of the term; there is, as always, the matter
of context.  One might endearedly say: "push bike" with
eyes wistfully aglow, or one with nothing but contempt
for bicycles might sneeringly spit out: "~push~ bikes ...
phhfffft!"

In the legalese of the British Columbia Motor Vehicle Act,
bicycles are referred-to simply as "cycles."  Actually
the term legally applies to all kinds of human-powered
conveyances, excluding roller skates, inline skates and
skateboards.  I assume kick-scooters are in, while stilts
and pogo-sticks might be a grey area.

Lisa Simpson: "A rose by any other name would still smell
              as sweet."

Bart Simpson: "Not if they were called: stink blossoms."

Marge Simpson: "I wouldn't want a dozen stink blossoms
               for Valentines Day. Some candy would do
               just fine."

Homer Simpson: "Not if they were called scum drops."

I guess ultimately it's all just semantics antics.

And besides, who cares how ya say it, as long as folks
know whatcha mean, eh?

cheers,
    Tom

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mike.a.schwab@gmail.com - 10 May 2009 02:22 GMT
> A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered).  I was talking
> to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in the shop to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> John Kane Kingson ON Canada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CJa6cPYOrw
1970 Australian hit, The Pushbike Song by The Mixtures
Pat Durkin - 10 May 2009 16:52 GMT
>> A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered). I was talking
>> to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in the shop
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CJa6cPYOrw
> 1970 Australian hit, The Pushbike Song by The Mixtures

I know I have heard that song.  But I don't know where or when. I never
understood or listened to the lyrics, I think.  And even then I wouldn't
have thought first of a regular bicycle.
This thread has been most educational.
When I have heard "pushbikes", I have always thought of those wheeled,
pedaled replacements for the ricksha.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw
These are images from "pedicabs"
http://tinyurl.com/pe9ysj

Of course those are mainly tricycles, and pulled, rather than pushed.
And the images of pulled cargo/passenger sections outnumbers the pushed
ones by a great margin.  Still, I see frequent examples of vendors
"pushing" their wares in boxes loaded on the fronts of their tricycles,
especially in films of NYC.
Now, shall I have to go back and reread all those stories in which I
heard "pushbikes" and assumed "wheeled rickshas"?
Jerry Friedman - 10 May 2009 17:39 GMT
> A push bike typically refers to bicyle (human powered).  I was talking
> to a sport shop owner the other day and said that I was in the shop to
> look at the push bikes not the motorbikes.
>
> It's not an expression that I see or hear used frequently and I was
> wondering if anyone has an idea of the origins of the phrase?

I've assumed since I learned it, probably in a Dorothy Sayers novel,
that it means a bike that you make go by pushing (the pedals with your
feet).

My mother refers to girls' knee-length, fairly close-fitting shorts as
"pedal pushers".  (Once while teaching I used that term about a young
woman's shorts, and a young man who liked to tease her said, "She's a
peddler!  And a pusher!"  Never again.)

Here in northern New Mexico I've heard "pedal bike".  I don't know why
people don't say "bicycle".  Maybe it sounds affected and pretentious
to them.

Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?  That is, why isn't it "bice"?
The NSOED says only "Abbrev. of BICYCLE", but it seems like an odd
abbreviation.  Baby talk?  Classicist pedantry, since the Greek word
that "cycle" comes from was and is pronounced with an initial "k"
sound?

Obaue: There's a Scottish and northern English word "bike" meaning a
wasp's nest, hence "A well-provisioned storehouse or dwelling" and "A
swarm of people, a crowd".  New to me.

The next word in the NSOED is "bikini".  "Bikini briefs" are defined
as "women's briefs resembling those of a bikini".  Has "women's" been
removed, or should we call Jesse S.'s attention to it?

Here's an ad with a drawing of a man wearing "bikini briefs and torso
T shirt" in /Popular Science/ from June, 1960:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1CoDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29

There's a snippet of what looks like the same ad in /Railroad
Magazine/ in 1959.

http://books.google.com/books?ei=iAEHSuifN6TsNNTGgcoD&id=0AUlAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22biki
ni+briefs%22+date%3A0-1960&q=%22bikini+briefs%22+date%3A0-1960&pgis=1#search_anc
hor


--
Jerry Friedman likes "Abbrev." (speaking of briefs).
Evan Kirshenbaum - 11 May 2009 06:50 GMT
> Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?  That is, why isn't it
> "bice"?  The NSOED says only "Abbrev. of BICYCLE", but it seems like
> an odd abbreviation.  Baby talk?  Classicist pedantry, since the
> Greek word that "cycle" comes from was and is pronounced with an
> initial "k" sound?

That's an interesting question.  The OED doesn't even have an
etymology beyond its being an abbreviation.  They cite it to 1882 in
_Wheelman_, and Google Books shows it showing up there and elsewhere
starting in 1883, without any explanation or scare quotes.  I see the
word condemned by 1896, but nobody seems to know where it comes from.
I toyed with the notion that it might originally have been spelled
"bic" (like the later "mic", which got respelled as "mike"), but I
can't find any evidence for that.

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William - 11 May 2009 07:48 GMT
> > Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?

> That's an interesting question.  The OED doesn't even have an
> etymology beyond its being an abbreviation.  They cite it to 1882 in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "bic" (like the later "mic", which got respelled as "mike"), but I
> can't find any evidence for that.

Other than "mike" itself. [Which is to say, I find that to be a
reasonably convincing argument].

--
WH
Evan Kirshenbaum - 11 May 2009 16:22 GMT
>> > Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Other than "mike" itself. [Which is to say, I find that to be a
> reasonably convincing argument].

Yeah, but I found absolutely zero support for "bic" in contemporaneous
writing, which seems strange if "bike" appeared widely suddenly.

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Mike Lyle - 11 May 2009 21:54 GMT
>>>> Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Yeah, but I found absolutely zero support for "bic" in contemporaneous
> writing, which seems strange if "bike" appeared widely suddenly.

See also "soccer", not "sosser": the usual abbreviation for "society" is
"soc", pronounced "sock", and I don't see any difficulty in imagining
that to have extended to a colloquial pronunciation of  "assoc."

I'd also be inclined to look to the "public" schools and universities
for a solution to the "bike" question. In the spirit of the birotate
conveyance I find it impossible to imagine that some people in those
circles didn't play with the original Greek spelling, "kYklos". I just
don't believe Partridge's (I think speculative) explanation that "bike"
comes from a mistaken division of the word into "bic-ycle": it doesn't
feel natural.

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Steve Hayes - 11 May 2009 08:22 GMT
>That's an interesting question.  The OED doesn't even have an
>etymology beyond its being an abbreviation.  They cite it to 1882 in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>"bic" (like the later "mic", which got respelled as "mike"), but I
>can't find any evidence for that.

Bic is a brand of ballpoint pen (like Biro, which one still sees occasionally
in print), and I pronounce it "bick", not "bike", just as I pronounce "mic" as
"mick", not "mike". I first saw "mic" embossed on Japanese cassette tape
recorders c1969, but was familiar with the "mike" spelling long before that,
just as I was familiar with the "fridge" spelling long before encountering the
"frig" one.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

jobst.brandt@stanfordalumni.org - 11 May 2009 16:25 GMT
>> That's an interesting question.  The OED doesn't even have an
>> etymology beyond its being an abbreviation.  They cite it to 1882
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> originally have been spelled "bic" (like the later "mic", which got
>> respelled as "mike"), but I can't find any evidence for that.

> Bic is a brand of ballpoint pen (like Biro, which one still sees
> occasionally in print), and I pronounce it "bick", not "bike", just
> as I pronounce "mic" as "mick", not "mike". I first saw "mic"
> embossed on Japanese cassette tape recorders c1969, but was familiar
> with the "mike" spelling long before that, just as I was familiar
> with the "fridge" spelling long before encountering the "frig" one.

Frenchman Marcel Bich introduced his inexpensive ball pen in 1950 and
later other convenient products, the stainless steel/plastic shaver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9_Bic

Jobst Brandt
Wood Avens - 11 May 2009 09:00 GMT
>> Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?  That is, why isn't it
>> "bice"?  The NSOED says only "Abbrev. of BICYCLE", but it seems like
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>"bic" (like the later "mic", which got respelled as "mike"), but I
>can't find any evidence for that.

Small children tend to pronounce bicycle "bi-kle".

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Robert Bannister - 12 May 2009 02:22 GMT
>> Where did the "k" in "bike" come from?  That is, why isn't it
>> "bice"?  The NSOED says only "Abbrev. of BICYCLE", but it seems like
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "bic" (like the later "mic", which got respelled as "mike"), but I
> can't find any evidence for that.

Interesting that you should pick that example. I was brought up on
"mike", but the pros appear to prefer "mic" and I thought that was a
modern innovation.

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Rob Bannister

 
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