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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009American R training
I am fascinated with the sound and melody of American English. I have learned it for years now quite successfully as many times the Americans I spoke with could not believe that I am not a native AmE speaker :) However, I know best of all that I still need a lot of practice so as not to lose it and contrary develop my phonetic skills. As for AmE "r" sound, I can do it very successfully but on certain occasions, especially when I feel kinda tired, I have a feeling that it does not sound the best or I have to put much more effort to produce the sound properly. I probably need a set of exercises that would strengthen certain muscle groups and improve their coordination at points. 1. I have read a lot on that from various resources (books, Internet, etc). They explain quite well the idea of the tongue tension and the way to induce it. And now comes my doubt. Some sources claim that AmE "r" is a vowel so the tongue must NOT touch anything in the mouth and that's kind of convincing to me. However, some say that the edges of your tongue should press the side teeth?! This makes me really confused as I cannot objectively assess what I am doing pronouncing the "r". I have a feeling that my tongue maybe very slightly touches the side teeth, if at all and definitely does not press hard on them. At least that's what I can feel... 2. Another problem is rounding your lips gently as they recommend. Should I tend to do it no matter where the "r" sound appears in speech? It seems to me that it is kind of important specifically if you want to pronounce the final "r" in a word or sentence. What's your opinion on that. 3. Finally, I wonder if there is any difference between AmE and BrE "r" sound as in the word "great" or "brown"? Thanks for your help! Regards,  SignatureRicardo > I am fascinated with the sound and melody of American English. I have > learned it for years now quite successfully as many times the Americans I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > convincing to me. However, some say that the edges of your tongue should > press the side teeth?! Do not believe that. It comes from proximity of your tongue with the roof of your mouth. I count only two vowels that will conjugate with it, though English spelling sujests otherwise. One is very similar to the short or soft oh (aw). Another is much like a schwa of the awR's own, and it tends to intercede between the awR and any other of the ten vowels. You could try pronouncing "ahr, ehr, ihr, awr, uhr...Ayr, Eer, Ire, Ohr, Uur. In "Ayr", you might hav trouble making the whole thing into a continuous glide, like I do in Canada. They do not do that so much in Louisiana, where "Air" sounds more like "Ayer". This makes me really confused as I cannot objectively > assess what I am doing pronouncing the "r". I have a feeling that my tongue > maybe very slightly touches the side teeth, if at all and definitely does [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the > final "r" in a word or sentence. What's your opinion on that. Britons tend to drop final aRs. The sound does not project from lips. It is a semi-vowel, because it does not appear on its own, and yet it easily conjugates with stop-consonants and begins words. > 3. Finally, I wonder if there is any difference between AmE and > BrE "r" > sound as in the word "great" or "brown"? Very little. _______ http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/Saffron_Karaoke_Duet.wmv Fifth version was posted in November, and I think the Alto part sounds more like a baseline, while the baseline sounds more like a Tenor, and the Tenor is my melody, so it should be the Alto part, if I follow tradition. Still, I think it works, so I posted it. >> I am fascinated with the sound and melody of American English. I have >> learned it for years now quite successfully as many times the Americans I [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > tradition. > Still, I think it works, so I posted it. Thanks a lot! It was most interesting to read your analysis. Also many thanks for the training set of R-like tongue twisters :) After a while of practice I could feel my tongue got tired. So that's probably the way to go and no more touching/pressing side teeth. Very good! All the best, SignatureRicardo P.S. The above link of yours does not work... > >> I am fascinated with the sound and melody of American English. I have > >> learned it for years now quite successfully as many times the Americans I [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I, of course, having grown up speaking Midwest America English (standard American), have great trouble managing the Spanish flap and trill ("pero" and "perro"). Even after years of singing along with Rita Moreno and Marni Nixon in "West Side Story"! Yes, American English r does require that "gently rounded" lips. For years, I thought that was all there was to saying r, having no idea that my tongue had anything to do with it. There is some tension at the corners of the mouth, and the upper lip lifts slightly in the middle. If you encounter Americans speaking Spanish or Italian with trilled r, see if it doesn't sound a little odd -- the American is almost certainly holding his lips the way he would for the American r! (It can be heard in the movie South Pacific. An Italian opera singer, Rossano Brazzi, played the French plantation owner, but his songs were overdubbed, using Giorgio Tozzi from Chicago. So you see an Italian trill while you hear the American variation, especially on the line "across a crowded room.") The tongue doesn't actually press on the teeth at the sides of the mouth; it touches the insides of the teeth because that's how wide it is. Don't tense any of your tongue except the tip! The standard American rhotic accent has only one pronunciaton for r, no matter where in the word it is (and that sentence has all five possibilities). Initial: rhotic. Mid: American. Terminal: for, r, matter, where. I don't know the terms for the other two; clustered after a consonant: pronunciation, and clustered before a consonant: standard, word. Which American Regional English are you listening to that you like the melody? > I, of course, having grown up speaking Midwest America English > (standard American), have great trouble managing the Spanish flap and > trill ("pero" and "perro"). Sorry, for my nick being kind of misleading. I am Polish actually but I have learned Spanish for long and I just love it (specifically Castellano, ie the Castilian dialect being actually much different from the American variations). So I perfectly understand what you mean here by the flap and trill. Even after years of singing along with > Rita Moreno and Marni Nixon in "West Side Story"! Heh :) The trilled "R" is easy enough for me as we do have that kind of "R" in Polish too though it is not that hardly pronounced as in the Spanish "perro". > Yes, American English r does require that "gently rounded" lips. For > years, I thought that was all there was to saying r, having no idea > that my tongue had anything to do with it. There is some tension at > the corners of the mouth, and the upper lip lifts slightly in the > middle. Wow, thank you for that beautiful description of how the American "R" is pronounced! It should be copied and pasted in a kind of book on AmE phonetics. Great work, really. Now, I know that my attempts to master the American "R" have been going in the right direction. At this point I probably need more exercising based on reading aloud some phrases with "R"s located in different positions. > ... > The tongue doesn't actually press on the teeth at the sides of the > mouth; it touches the insides of the teeth because that's how wide it > is. Don't tense any of your tongue except the tip! Oh, what a relief! Now it has become all clear to me. Thanks a lot for helping me out to get rid of the doubts that were haunting me. > The standard American rhotic accent has only one pronunciaton for r, > no matter where in the word it is (and that sentence has all five > possibilities). Oh, another important clue you have given me! That's fantastic :) > Initial: rhotic. Mid: American. Terminal: for, r, > matter, where. I don't know the terms for the other two; clustered > after a consonant: pronunciation, and clustered before a consonant: > standard, word. You could seriously consider writing a phonology book for ESL students. No kidding! > Which American Regional English are you listening to that you like the > melody? Well, the Midwestern I believe is the most immaculate of all the dialects and the closest to so called General American. And that's what I am trying to copy. However, I like to listen to some other AmE dialects and try to immitate them just for fun. As you can see I am a kind of phonetics freak :) Thanks again for your invaluable consultation! I appreciate it a lot. Regards, SignatureRicardo > > (standard American), have great trouble managing the Spanish flap and > > trill ("pero" and "perro"). [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > -- > Ricardo Yes, Midwestern minus the twang is Standard American. It's what I began speaking 60 years ago, modified (and slowed!) by Urban East Texas over the last few decades. The Midwestern twang has the "short a" (/&/) leaning farther toward a "short e" (/E/) than it should ("laugh" sounds like "leff"). Another bit of Midwestern accent leads folks from elsewhere to hear an "r" in "wash" ("warsh") -- which isn't there; the tongue is not involved. The Midwesterner uses a slightly different vowel and the lips go through that "gently rounded" with tense corners as the mouth moves from the vowel to the /S/ end consonant. I don't know enough to write a book! Being curious, I have been reading what I can find in the public library on phonetics and linguistics, but I have not done a real course of study. If you are using movies to hear other Amerian accents, you won't learn much. Although the U.S. has about 30 accents, Hollywood has decreed that only three accents may be used by actors portraying Americans: standard, urban, and Southern. Unfortunately, Hollywood does not know accents at all! What they think is Southern is actually from the Ozark Mountains; it's Arkansas hillbilly. Several years ago, there was a short-lived TV show set in Houston, featuring two policemen, one a native of Houston and the other recently moved in from Chicago. The actor who played the native Houstonian could do a very good west Texas accent (Texas has five regional accents), but on the screen he sounded straight out of the Ozarks. The character from big-city Chicago sounded like he came from Brooklyn (part of New York City, about 800 miles, or 1230 km, farther east). Once in a while, actors can sneak a bit of regional truth into their parts, usually a bit of vocabulary peculiar to the area (Maine: "ayuh"; The Bronx: "youse"). But not often. > ... >> ... >>> ... > Yes, Midwestern minus the twang is Standard American. Oh, a nice definition again :) Now, I begin to realize how ignorant I am. Up to date, I have not known such details. It's most interesting to me. Thanks again! > It's what I > began speaking 60 years ago, modified (and slowed!) by Urban East > Texas over the last few decades. The Midwestern twang has the "short > a" (/&/) leaning farther toward a "short e" (/E/) than it should > ("laugh" sounds like "leff"). Isn't such a phenomenon observed in the southern accents - I have a feeling that they speak with a kind of broad mouth and very twang too. To my non-native ears the Texan "a" like in "laugh" is kind of prolonged and leaning toward "e" being very "nasal" at the same time. Is that observation correct or am I completely wrong? > Another bit of Midwestern accent leads > folks from elsewhere to hear an "r" in "wash" ("warsh") -- which isn't > there; the tongue is not involved. The Midwesterner uses a slightly > different vowel and the lips go through that "gently rounded" with > tense corners as the mouth moves from the vowel to the /S/ end > consonant. That's amazing! :) I have never noticed it but I probabaly havent's had a chance to hear unadulterated sample of the Midwestern accent. I am beginning to guess that my Midwestern speakers tended to use more General American than their own way of speech... > I don't know enough to write a book! Being curious, I have been > reading what I can find in the public library on phonetics and > linguistics, but I have not done a real course of study. Wow, admirable interest in the nuances of your native tongue. I like it though I have never been that enthusiastic about studying my native language which is Polish. Well, on the other hand, I did have a real extensive and detailed course of the Polish in highschool that actually addressed a lot of topics that seemed interesting to me. > If you are using movies to hear other Amerian accents, you won't learn > much. Although the U.S. has about 30 accents, Hollywood has decreed > that only three accents may be used by actors portraying Americans: > standard, urban, and Southern. Good to know, really. I would never guessed it. Gee. > Unfortunately, Hollywood does not know > accents at all! What they think is Southern is actually from the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sounded like he came from Brooklyn (part of New York City, about 800 > miles, or 1230 km, farther east). Yeah, I heard about the Brooklyn English being kind of tough to grasp for foreigners :) > Once in a while, actors can sneak a > bit of regional truth into their parts, usually a bit of vocabulary > peculiar to the area (Maine: "ayuh"; The Bronx: "youse"). But not > often. I see. Thanks a lot for your elaborate and most interesting post. Kindest regards and warm greetings from Poland! SignatureRicardo > >> ... > >>> ... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > leaning toward "e" being very "nasal" at the same time. Is that observation > correct or am I completely wrong? It was in Texas that I learned that my short a tended toward short e. Native Texans do not do that and asked why I did. Note: Texas has five accents; you may have heard Northeast Texas, which is next to Arkansas. Texas Twang? I've been hearing that phrase the last year or so, and I don't know why people say that! It used to be that "twang" was applied to the Midwest; Texas had "drawl." The most severe case of short a --> short e I've ever heard was in Ohio; "laughed" and "left" sounded exactly alike. > > Another bit of Midwestern accent leads > > folks from elsewhere to hear an "r" in "wash" ("warsh") -- which isn't [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to guess that my Midwestern speakers tended to use more General American > than their own way of speech... No; most of them don't even know they do this. I was asked about it after I moved to Texas. > -- > Ricardo >> Uzytkownik "Cece" <ceceliaarmstr...@yahoo.com> napisal w wiadomoscinews:6 >> 4de8270-6c53-44b6-a314-458b6370ed2d@e24g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...> ... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Arkansas. Texas Twang? I've been hearing that phrase the last year > or so, and I don't know why people say that! I am beginning to realize how ignorant I was, and how complex and tricky this regional accent stuff actually is. I guess, one of the reasons that might make me believe that the Texan accent has a twang were cowboy movies I would watch passionately as a kid. The characters were supposed to be of Texan origin, and as you just told me, the actors were not allowed to speak the Texan accent and probably used the Midwestern instead with that "twang" you speak about. > It used to be that > "twang" was applied to the Midwest; Texas had "drawl." Come to think of it, I could hear that drawl every once in a while in the cowboy movies. And that's definitely what I have associated with the Dixie. Now as you named it, I realized the nature of this phenomenon. Thanks. > The most > severe case of short a --> short e I've ever heard was in Ohio; [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > No; most of them don't even know they do this. I was asked about it > after I moved to Texas. Thanks again. I'll have to investigate the problem more extensively. Maybe, I will look for American accent samples on YouTube. Regards, SignatureRicardo (...) > P.S. The above link of yours does not work...- Hide quoted text - It's nice to know that someone is trying it before I am sure that I cannot do better with either the harmony or how easily it can be sung. If I listen to it when I am drunk, then I hear no flaws. I should find a proper tagline selector, rather than depending on my fingers, because I omitted the directory. _______ http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/font/Saffron_Karaoke_Duet.wmv Warning: BEER.SYS not found. Operator not loaded. |
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