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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Knock-on effect
Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. Is it really?  SignatureChristian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de >Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >Is it really? Well, I'm pretty sure it's not common in AmE. I can't say what I would use instead without more context, however. (Might be just "effect" or perhaps "consequences", just to name a few possibilities.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >>Is it really? > >Well, I'm pretty sure it's not common in AmE. I can't say what I >would use instead without more context, however. (Might be just >"effect" or perhaps "consequences", just to name a few possibilities.) OED: DRAFT ADDITIONS MAY 2003 knock-on, n. and adj. * attrib. Chiefly Brit. Being a secondary or indirect consequence of another action, occurrence, or event; knock-on effect n. a secondary, indirect, or cumulative effect. 1972 Times 18 Apr. 2/3 They would be more than willing to move towards a minimum wage of about £20 a week..if they could be assured..that there would be no knock-on effect in the differentials demanded by the rest of the labour force. 1983 Listener 24 Nov. 4/3 The knock-on effect of losing the surface plankton life might prove crucial. 1990 Internat. Freighting Weekly (Nexis) 13 Aug. 1 The ruptured trade relations between Iraq and Britain have knock-on consequences for the repayment of loans. 2000 Z. SARDAR Consumption of Kuala Lumpur 191 The financial system of Thailand went into collapse and the knock-on effect rippled across the region. All those quotes are from British sources. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > OED: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > of Thailand went into collapse and the knock-on effect rippled > across the region. Weirdly, in atomic physics, there have been knock-on electrons for a long time. Google, in the first page, brings up a citation from 1952. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: The end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we :|| ||: started and know the place for the first time. :|| > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. > Is it really? "knock-on" is a precursor activity for "knock-up". Not sure if the British nor English invented those expressions; they are a rather boring lot of peoples. SignaturePurl Gurl -- This is to the native American poster who I believe to be a woman, but for some reason is gotten up like Groucho Marx: Excuse me? -- Margo Howard, 11/19/2008 > > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. > > Is it really? > "knock-on" is a precursor activity for "knock-up". Very interesting, Kira, but I'm having trouble visualizing the process. Could you perhaps post a short video on YouTube explicating what you mean, so we can all better understand you? Feel free to star in it yourself. > Not sure if the British nor English invented those > expressions; they are a rather boring lot of peoples. Gotta agree with you there. Much duller than we Murricans, 'specially the Native Ones. SignatureBarrister Bob >>> Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >>> Is it really? >> "knock-on" is a precursor activity for "knock-up". > Very interesting, Kira, but I'm having trouble visualizing the > process. Could you perhaps post a short video on YouTube explicating > what you mean, so we can all better understand you? Feel free to star > in it yourself. No surprise you have difficulty visualizing this process; I am told you are the world's oldest living virgin. YouTube, need to check system requirements first. With my husband being my big costar, you will at least need a wide screen monitor to enjoy the full big picture. My nickname for him is, "Clydesdale". SignaturePurl Gurl -- This is to the native American poster who I believe to be a woman, but for some reason is gotten up like Groucho Marx: Excuse me? -- Margo Howard, 11/19/2008 > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. > Is it really? Remote memory suggests this is a technical term from croquet, nowadays played by hardly any non-Britons, by at least some British with savage gamesmanship. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >> Is it really? > Remote memory suggests this is a technical term from > croquet, nowadays played by hardly any non-Britons, by > at least some British with savage gamesmanship. Hey! The last World Croquet Championship, held here in Cheltenham, as won, I'm told, by an Australian! Croquet, by the way, thought looking sedate, as you say, is a vicious game. With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Now happily retired. Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk >On 10 May 2009 "Don Phillipson" <e925@SPAMBLOCK.ncf.ca> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Croquet, by the way, thought looking sedate, as you say, is a vicious >game. Quite as vicious as chess and snooker. Combined, even. SignaturePaul Who's played on the Cheltenham lawns >"Christian Weisgerber" <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote in message >news:gu6r1l$8q1$2@lorvorc.mips.inka.de... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >croquet, nowadays played by hardly any non-Britons, by >at least some British with savage gamesmanship. In croquet there is the "rush", in which a roquet on a target ball is played strongly enough to advance the roqueted ball to an improved position, where croquet will be taken from it, the "peel", in which a roqueted ball is deliberately sent through its next hoop in order in the course of taking croquet from it, and the "promotion", in which a ball other than the striker's ball or target ball is incidentally advanced during a stroke to an advantageous position on the lawn. The phrase "knock-on" isn't part of the formal croquet vocabulary. I always view the knock-on effect in terms of falling dominoes. But there you go. SignaturePaul Paul Wolff set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > The phrase "knock-on" isn't part of the formal croquet vocabulary. Croquet has contributed one expression to BrE - to "peg out". You get knock-ons (illegal forward passes) in rugby, see my post elsewhere. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Paul Wolff set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time > continuum: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Croquet has contributed one expression to BrE - to "peg out". You get > knock-ons (illegal forward passes) in rugby, see my post elsewhere. I /thought/ to "peg out" was from cribbage. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> Paul Wolff set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >> continuum: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I /thought/ to "peg out" was from cribbage. Yes, that's where I use it. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >Paul Wolff set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >continuum: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Croquet has contributed one expression to BrE - to "peg out". You get >knock-ons (illegal forward passes) in rugby, see my post elsewhere. Crib(bage), surely? SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >On Sun, 10 May 2009 23:25:18 +0100, Prai Jei ><pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Crib(bage), surely? Possibly, perhaps probably, but not surely. If anyone can find a copy of Spratt's rules of croquet of 1851 and see if the term is used there, the race to find the earliest record would be pretty much a dead heat. But it does seem more likely that it would enter popular vocabulary from cribbage than from croquet, if cribbage was, as I presume, much more widely played than croquet. SignaturePaul > >On Sun, 10 May 2009 23:25:18 +0100, Prai Jei > ><pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of Spratt's rules of croquet of 1851 and see if the term is used there, > the race to find the earliest record would be pretty much a dead heat. According to the OED it's a close run thing! 4. trans. Croquet. To put (a ball) out by making it hit the winning-peg. Also intr.: to hit the winning-peg with the ball as the final stroke in the game. 1869 Croquet: Implem. & Laws (rev. ed.) 9 Rover, a ball that has gone through all its hoops and is ready to peg out. 5. intr. Cribbage. To score the winning point at cribbage; spec. to win the game by reaching the last hole before the show of hands. 1870 F. HARDY & J. R. WARE Mod. Hoyle 81 He may with a very poor hand be just able to ?show? or peg out. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >In article <16bXSwbU++BKFAPy@fpwolff.demon.co.uk>, >bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk says... [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >1870 F. HARDY & J. R. WARE Mod. Hoyle 81 He may with a very poor hand be >just able to ?show? or peg out. I found this through Google Books A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English - Page 866 by Eric Partridge, Paul Beale - 2002 (paperback edition) - 1400 pages peg out To die: adopted, by 1860, ex US, where current a decade sooner (Moe cites Joseph M. Field, ]ob and his Children (D, i), 1852) which was why I wondered as I did about Spratt in 1851. But if it was current in the US a decade before GB, the relative dating and popularity of croquet and cribbage in the US would be relevant. SignaturePaul Paul Wolff set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > But it does seem more likely that it would enter popular vocabulary from > cribbage than from croquet, if cribbage was, as I presume, much more > widely played than croquet. Certainly I would accept that cribbage has given us "level pegging" which has come to mean tied scores in just about any game, but I've never heard of pegging out in connection with cribbage. I can remember, as a kid, having a scare when my granny said that she was going to peg out later that day, but all that turned out to mean was that she was going to hang out the washing. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Paul Wolff set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time > continuum: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > which has come to mean tied scores in just about any game, but I've > never heard of pegging out in connection with cribbage. To me, "pegging" is the first scoring phase, when players reveal cards one at a time. This is followed by "counting". "Pegging out" is winning the game during the pegging phase. This is especially annoying when the opponent will count first and has enough points in his hand to win. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are just two rules of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |governance in a free society: Mind Palo Alto, CA 94304 |your own business. Keep your hands |to yourself. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] > I always view the knock-on effect in terms of falling dominoes. But > there you go. I, for my part, visualize shove-halfpenny. (Those outside the Sterling area may prefer to conjure a vision of Newton's balls in their cradle.) SignatureMike. >[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I, for my part, visualize shove-halfpenny. (Those outside the Sterling >area may prefer to conjure a vision of Newton's balls in their cradle.) I had one of those but the balls dropped off - perishing string. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. > Is it really? Quite right, old chap. This American has never heard of it till this very moment. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. > > Is it really? > > Quite right, old chap. This American has never heard of it till this > very moment. In AmE it would be called a "side-effect" with some loss of connotation. In my line of work, an "unanticipated side-effect" is also known as a "bug". Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- My software never has bugs. It just develops random features. >> > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >> > Is it really? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > connotation. In my line of work, an "unanticipated side-effect" is > also known as a "bug". Cf Larry Wall's When you rewrite a compiler from scratch, you sometimes fix things you didn't know were broken. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to |zero, but when you look in kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |detail.... (650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ JimboCat filted: >> > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >> > Is it really? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >connotation. In my line of work, an "unanticipated side-effect" is >also known as a "bug". In some circles it's known as "emergent behavior"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > JimboCat filted: [...] >> In AmE it would be called a "side-effect" with some loss of >> connotation. In my line of work, an "unanticipated side-effect" is >> also known as a "bug". > > In some circles it's known as "emergent behavior"....r An "undocumented feature", like the key combination I still occasionally press by accident which on-toggles "insert": I assume I shall go to my grave without having found out what it is. SignatureMike. >> JimboCat filted: > [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > occasionally press by accident which on-toggles "insert": I assume I > shall go to my grave without having found out what it is. Every once in a while, when editing text I have written, I've gotten a tiny degree sign. I'm absolutely positive that I did not hit Alt+0176 to get it. Weird. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> JimboCat filted: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a tiny degree sign. I'm absolutely positive that I did not hit > Alt+0176 to get it. Weird. Well, damn! I've had that one, too. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >> Every once in a while, when editing text I have written, I've gotten >> a tiny degree sign. I'm absolutely positive that I did not hit >> Alt+0176 to get it. Weird. > >Well, damn! I've had that one, too. What are the odds of you hitting AltGr+colon accidentally?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Mike Lyle filted: >>> Every once in a while, when editing text I have written, I've gotten >>> a tiny degree sign. I'm absolutely positive that I did not hit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What are the odds of you hitting AltGr+colon accidentally?...r Eh? I tried all combinations of that purposely -- no degree sign. SignatureSkitt (AmE) Skitt filted: >> Mike Lyle filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Eh? I tried all combinations of that purposely -- no degree sign. Watch as I press colon three times, holding down the right Alt key (in place of the non-existent AltGr) for the second one: :°: If you don't have your keyboard defined as "US English International", you should be able to do it by mashing the *right-hand* Alt, Ctrl, Shift and semicolon simultaneously, which seems like something that might just happen accidentally.... ...if you're typing with your elbows....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Skitt filted: >>> Mike Lyle filted: >>>>> Every once in a while, when editing text I have written, I've >>>>> gotten a tiny degree sign. I'm absolutely positive that I did [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > :°: Doesn't work for me. The second colon didn't appear. > If you don't have your keyboard defined as "US English > International", you should be able to do it by mashing the > *right-hand* Alt, Ctrl, Shift and semicolon simultaneously, which > seems like something that might just happen accidentally.... > > ...if you're typing with your elbows.... Doesn't work for me. Nothing gets typed. Yet, there are times ... SignatureSkitt (AmE) >Skitt filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > :°: That arrived here as: colon degree colon >If you don't have your keyboard defined as "US English International", you >should be able to do it by mashing the *right-hand* Alt, Ctrl, Shift and >semicolon simultaneously, which seems like something that might just happen >accidentally.... > >...if you're typing with your elbows....r SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Skitt filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >...if you're typing with your elbows....r Thelonious Monk was known to play the piano occasionally with his elbows, so don't knock it. Incidentally, I've tried all combinations of AltGR, CTRL, with the colon key shifted and unshifted, and don't get any character on a UK keyboard. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> Skitt filted: >>>> Mike Lyle filted: >>>>>> Every once in a while, when editing text I have written, I've >>>>>> gotten a tiny degree sign. I'm absolutely positive that I did [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > of AltGR, CTRL, with the colon key shifted and unshifted, and don't > get any character on a UK keyboard. I believe Jamie Cullum did that on the Tonight Show just a few nights ago. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Skitt filted: >>>>> Mike Lyle filted: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I believe Jamie Cullum did that on the Tonight Show just a few > nights ago. > Thelonious Monk was known to play the piano occasionally with his > elbows, so don't knock it. Incidentally, I've tried all combinations > of AltGR, CTRL, with the colon key shifted and unshifted, and don't > get any character on a UK keyboard. You got me sufficiently interested to try out "keyboard viewer". It seems that my Mac keyboard has that key mapped as semi-colon, colon, elipsis and capital U with an acute accent. SignatureRob Bannister >> Thelonious Monk was known to play the piano occasionally with his >> elbows, so don't knock it. Incidentally, I've tried all combinations [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >seems that my Mac keyboard has that key mapped as semi-colon, colon, >elipsis and capital U with an acute accent. On a UK keyboard, the degree (º) symbol is [Numlock on] Alt (hold down) 0186 (on numeric keypad). SignatureIan >On a UK keyboard, the degree (\272) symbol is [Numlock on] Alt (hold down) >0186 (on numeric keypad). No it isn't. That's the "masculine ordinal" symbol, used IIRC in Spanish and Portuguese text (similar to superscript "e" for French ordinals, except that the Spanish ordinal requires gender agreement. The degree symbol is 0176 (U+00B0). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>On a UK keyboard, the degree (\272) symbol is [Numlock on] Alt (hold down) >>0186 (on numeric keypad). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >ordinals, except that the Spanish ordinal requires gender agreement. >The degree symbol is 0176 (U+00B0). I sit corrected! SignatureIan Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gui3dh$2vqn$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> on Thu, 14 May 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (UTC): > >On a UK keyboard, the degree (\272) symbol is [Numlock on] Alt (hold down) > >0186 (on numeric keypad). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ordinals, except that the Spanish ordinal requires gender agreement. > The degree symbol is 0176 (U+00B0). What I get (with Numlock on or off) for Alt-0186 is a raised little circle, what one might call a superscript o, in fixed pitch Lucida Console or Courier New or variable pitch Times New Roman but it turns into the "masculine ordinal" in Palatino Linotype which is the one I normally read Usenet in. Alt-0176 gives the degree symbol in all fonts that I have tried. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gui3dh$2vqn$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> > on Thu, 14 May 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Alt-0176 gives the degree symbol in all fonts that I have tried. Yes, my mistake. I was 'mizzled' by looking at Word "Insert", "Symbol". In the bottom right corner, this helpfully gives you the codes for each symbol. There are two symbols which look like degree symbols, and I chose the wrong one (story of my life, I suppose). SignatureIan Nick Spalding wrote, in <nv8q051flbscad6ddjq63c1cq57g5dalnj@4ax.com> on Fri, 15 May 2009 09:20:53 +0100: > Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gui3dh$2vqn$1@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> > on Thu, 14 May 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Alt-0176 gives the degree symbol in all fonts that I have tried. Second thoughts. Perhaps the superscript o (or 0) is the "masculine ordinal" and what Palatino shows me, an underlined degree symbol, is something else. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Nick Spalding wrote, in <nv8q051flbscad6ddjq63c1cq57g5dalnj@4ax.com> > on Fri, 15 May 2009 09:20:53 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >ordinal" and what Palatino shows me, an underlined degree symbol, is >something else. As an experiment I used the codes 0171 and 0186 to type the following into Word: 3ª, 3º I highlighted all this and changed the size to 36 points and then chose Format, Font from the menu to see what it looked like in different fonts. In Palatino and its equivalent Book Antiqua the superscript character wasn't underlined, but it was in Palatino Linotype and Bookman and a few other fonts. It seems to be part of the design of some typefaces. SignatureJames James Hogg wrote, in <92fq05h3vanf08d02osqjhekbdompla2b9@4ax.com> on Fri, 15 May 2009 12:02:07 +0200: > >Nick Spalding wrote, in <nv8q051flbscad6ddjq63c1cq57g5dalnj@4ax.com> > > on Fri, 15 May 2009 09:20:53 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Linotype and Bookman and a few other fonts. It seems to be part > of the design of some typefaces. Blowing it up like that it definitely looks like a superscript letter o rather than zero. The degree symbol is a true circle SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > James Hogg wrote, in <92fq05h3vanf08d02osqjhekbdompla2b9@4ax.com> > on Fri, 15 May 2009 12:02:07 +0200: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Blowing it up like that it definitely looks like a superscript letter o > rather than zero. The degree symbol is a true circle For me, the one on the left comes out as a superscript underlined "a". I haven't checked which character set I'm viewing in. SignatureRob Bannister >> Nick Spalding wrote, in <nv8q051flbscad6ddjq63c1cq57g5dalnj@4ax.com> >> on Fri, 15 May 2009 09:20:53 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Linotype and Bookman and a few other fonts. It seems to be part > of the design of some typefaces. I suppose it's there for the second letter of the abbreviation for "number". Rather old-fashioned, but quite rational. SignatureMike. >> As an experiment I used the codes 0171 and 0186 to type the >> following into Word: [...] >I suppose it's there for the second letter of the abbreviation for >"number". Rather old-fashioned, but quite rational. No, they are for Spanish and Portuguese ordinal numbers. The numero sign has its own code point, U+2116 (see the "Letterlike Symbols" code chart, <http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2100.pdf>). Alt+8470 might work for you Windows users. This discussion does point out the need to consult a code chart rather than simply judging the appearance of a symbol in any particular font. There are many glyphs in Unicode/ISO 10646 that appear identical in some or even all fonts, yet have specific, distinct meanings. The Unicode charts mention both alternate encodings of the same glyph, and also similar-appearing but distinct glyphs. (For example, in "Letterlike symbols", you'll find the Hebrew letter alef, included for its use as a mathematical symbol, U+2135 ALEF SYMBOL. This is distinct from its usage in Hebrew text, where it is U+05D0 HEBREW LETTER ALEF, because Hebrew is written right-to-left and Mathematics is written left-to-right. Similarly for certain other Hebrew, Greek, and Latin letters used for specialized purposes, like the servicemark symbol, the SI symbol for ohms, and so on.) When in doubt, look it up. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | Most [science journalism] isn't malificent. Fox ... wollman@bimajority.org| is openly corrupt. You can fix stupid, or at least Opinions not shared | you can try, but you can't fix evil. Don't make the with my employers. | mistake of confusing Fox with journalism. ~ Fred Vultee > Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gui3dh$2vq...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> > on Thu, 14 May 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Nick Spalding > BrE/IrE As a native layman: the ordinals in Portuguese are represented by either an 'a' (for female ordinals) or an 'o' (male) in superscript, with the underline being optional. This leads to uI can only assume the Spanish is the same. Incidentally, the French is usually gender- neutral, but premier and première differ. > > Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gui3dh$2vq...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> > > on Thu, 14 May 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > the Spanish is the same. Incidentally, the French is usually gender- > neutral, but premier and première differ. Seems I managed to post midway through a small rewrite. As a native layman: the ordinals in Portuguese are represented by either an 'a' (for female ordinals) or an 'o' (male) in superscript, with the underline being optional. This leads to the confusion between the degree and the male ordinal. I can only assume Spanish uses the same ordinals. Incidentally, the French ordinals are usually gender- neutral, but premier and première differ. pdpi wrote, in <a3f472d2-7ce4-490e-b8d0-dee25ee91d44@h23g2000vbc.googlegroups.com> on Fri, 15 May 2009 03:52:54 -0700 (PDT): > > > Garrett Wollman wrote, in <gui3dh$2vq...@grapevine.csail.mit.edu> > > > on Thu, 14 May 2009 21:45:21 +0000 (UTC): [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > same ordinals. Incidentally, the French ordinals are usually gender- > neutral, but premier and première differ. Interesting, thank you. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE Robin Bignall filted: >you >>should be able to do it by mashing the *right-hand* Alt, Ctrl, Shift and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Thelonious Monk was known to play the piano occasionally with his >elbows, so don't knock it. There's a big difference between Thelonious Monk's elbows and my elbows....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Robin Bignall filted: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >There's a big difference between Thelonious Monk's elbows and my elbows....r I should hope so. His have been dead since 1982. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall wrote, in <i1cm05palb76hleg1ff6j3a75ajlbe2ddi@4ax.com> on Wed, 13 May 2009 21:45:20 +0100: > >Skitt filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > of AltGR, CTRL, with the colon key shifted and unshifted, and don't > get any character on a UK keyboard. With the UK keyboard AltGr produces an acute accent on any vowel (not on y), upper or lower case, a broken pipe symbol for the ¬` key to the left of 1, and a euro symbol for 4 and has no other effect in combination with other character keys that I can find. The last two are shown in the bottom right corner of the key tops. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Robin Bignall wrote, in <i1cm05palb76hleg1ff6j3a75ajlbe2ddi@4ax.com>> With the UK keyboard AltGr produces an acute accent on any vowel (not on > y), upper or lower case, a broken pipe symbol for the ¬` key to the left > of 1, and a euro symbol for 4 and has no other effect in combination > with other character keys that I can find. The last two are shown in > the bottom right corner of the key tops. It depends very much on what software you're running. Here, with a UK keyboard on Ubuntu and running Emacs, I get a stand-alone single and double acute accent (at least, I think that's what they are, rather than a variery of quotation marks) from Alt-Gr semicolon and colon after two pushes. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Nick filted: >>Robin Bignall wrote, in <i1cm05palb76hleg1ff6j3a75ajlbe2ddi@4ax.com>> With the >>UK keyboard AltGr produces an acute accent on any vowel (not on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >a variery of quotation marks) from Alt-Gr semicolon and colon after two >pushes. Heck, with Emacs, you can set it up so any keypress e-mails your grandmother a note about your bowel habits....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Nick filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Heck, with Emacs, you can set it up so any keypress e-mails your grandmother a > note about your bowel habits....r Now Emacs is good, I'll give you that. But to do that would take the ether bit of ethernet a fraction too far. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>> Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >>> Is it really? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > connotation. In my line of work, an "unanticipated side-effect" is > also known as a "bug". "Side-effect" seems different to me. I'd would have thought "domino effect" was nearer, though not quite the same. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. >>>> Is it really? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >"Side-effect" seems different to me. I'd would have thought "domino >effect" was nearer, though not quite the same. Agreed. |---> intended effect Cause | |---> side-effect But: Cause ---> intended effect ---> knock-on effect With the "domino effect" the cause has an effect which in turn acts as the cause of another effect of the same type, and so on. A knock-on effect is, generally, different in nature from the intended effect. A knock-on effect is often a reaction to the intended effect. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On May 11, 10:13 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Tue, 12 May 2009 09:26:14 +0800, Robert Bannister > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > A knock-on effect is often a reaction to the intended effect. Ah, very interesting! Definitely not quite a "domino effect", where the original and subsequent effects are generally of the *same* nature. Not really "blowback" either, since those who suffer from a knock-on effect are not necessarily the ones who initiated the original cause. I think I'll adopt this new phrase into my vocabulary: it fills a void of which I hadn't even been aware. Is that a knock-on effect of reading AUE? Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "If there were something supernatural, it would be completely natural." -- Dave Slankard >I think I'll adopt this new phrase into my vocabulary: it fills a void >of which I hadn't even been aware. Is that a knock-on effect of >reading AUE? You're durn tootin'. SignatureJames Christian Weisgerber set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > Wiktionary marks "knock-on effect" as a specifically British idiom. > Is it really? The usual effect is a scrum at the point where the offence occurred. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply |
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