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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009He missed his blue
Hello: This seems to be Eton. Does 'missed his "blue"' mean 'he didn't make the varsity team?' --- [Le Bas, his former (school) house master, visits him shortly in college] 'He missed his "blue," didn't he?' 'I think he was only tried out a couple of times.' A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 152 -------  SignatureThanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 152 > ------- Blue here means selection for the university team (at either Oxford or Cambridge.) As the boys' housemaster, Le Bas would already know their sports histories at his public school, (Oxford and Cambridge men do not talk about "varsity" which is mosty American usage, confusing since it is often used at schools that are not universities.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > about "varsity" which is mosty American usage, confusing > since it is often used at schools that are not universities.) Manchester men don't either. I have very little idea what "varsity" means, unless it's just an alternative word for "university". SignatureDavid >Don Phillipson wrote: >>> Hello: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Manchester men don't either. I have very little idea what "varsity" >means, unless it's just an alternative word for "university". So I just did this little search on University pages: Results for University of Oxford Results 1 - 10 of about 738 for varsity. Search took 0.03 seconds. The word is used to signify matches against Cambridge (this was so in at least 39 of the first 40 of those supposed 738 hits), so it is, as it happens, particularly relevant to a discussion of getting or missing blues. This page says there were 77 Varsity matches in 1998: http://www.sport.ox.ac.uk/sports-federation/blues SignaturePaul >Manchester men don't either. I have very little idea what "varsity" >means, unless it's just an alternative word for "university". In South Africa it was, in the 1960s. I believe UK usage is now "uni". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >I believe UK usage is now "uni". If it is, it's generational. Not being of the generation concerned, it makes me wince. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> I believe UK usage is now "uni". > > If it is, it's generational. Not being of the generation concerned, > it makes me wince. It is pretty much the only term now used by those under 30, and unfortunately also by Wife who is well over 30 but who is a senior tutor in a sixth form college with responsibility for students' university admissions. I wince also. I'm fairly sure it was imported via Neighbours (an atipodean televisual entertainment, M'Lud). SignatureDavid in a Hilton >>> I believe UK usage is now "uni". >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm fairly sure it was imported via Neighbours (an atipodean televisual > entertainment, M'Lud). I think we may have discussed this before. I first heard it on my first day at Manchester in 1965 from a girl from the East Riding but it wasn't common parlance in those days. I didn't notice it much before the abolition of the binary divide in 1992, when polys became unis. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> I believe UK usage is now "uni". >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >in a sixth form college with responsibility for students' university >admissions. I wince also. The annual Undergraduate Guide to Cambridge used to be called "Varsity Handbook". I hope that hasn't changed to "Uni Handbook". SignatureJames >>>> I believe UK usage is now "uni". >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >The annual Undergraduate Guide to Cambridge used to be called >"Varsity Handbook". I hope that hasn't changed to "Uni Handbook". Which appears to contradict Don Philipson's observation that Oxford and Cambridge men do not talk about varsity -- unless that Undergraduate Guide was published in Cambridge, Mass. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>> I believe UK usage is now "uni". >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Cambridge men do not talk about varsity -- unless that Undergraduate Guide was >published in Cambridge, Mass. "Varsity" survived longer at Cambridge (and Oxford, I think) than at other British universities, but was pretty moribund when I was there in the 60s. The student newspaper is still called "Varsity", though, as, I suspect is the handbook, which acquired the name because it was published by the newspaper. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>> I believe UK usage is now "uni". >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >The annual Undergraduate Guide to Cambridge used to be called >"Varsity Handbook". I hope that hasn't changed to "Uni Handbook". I grew up knowing the annual spring event on the Thames, between Oxford and Cambridge, as being the "Varsity Boat Race". I don't think you hear that these days. SignatureIan > In message <s14h059lql7s7md3ivlobctad4th9ro...@4ax.com>, James Hogg > <Jas.H...@gOUTmail.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and Cambridge, as being the "Varsity Boat Race". I don't think you hear > that these days. True - I don't think I've ever heard it called anything but "The Boat Race" - but I think the Rugby match between Oxford & Cambridge is still called the "Varsity Match" - likewise for football (association) and perhaps some other sports. the Omrud wrote, in <gua2l8$ids$3@news.motzarella.org> on Mon, 11 May 2009 21:43:21 +0100: > >> I believe UK usage is now "uni". > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I'm fairly sure it was imported via Neighbours (an atipodean televisual > entertainment, M'Lud). I knew a girl in 1956 who was at Reading University (the original Redbrick?) who called it 'uni'. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >> I believe UK usage is now "uni". > > If it is, it's generational. Not being of the generation concerned, > it makes me wince. It's an Ozism. We were in England when we first noticed it, though: a cousin at Monash said she was "at Uni", and that must have been in the late sixties. I think the Brit kids got it from /Neighbours/ and /Home and Away/, Gawdelpus: my four all seem to say it, and they certainly didn't get it from me or my parents or sibs. SignatureMike. >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 152 >------- Yes, at either Oxford or Cambridge -- one was light blue and the other dark blue. I forget which, but a Google search should tell you. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > --- > [Le Bas, his former (school) house master, visits him shortly in college] "shortly"? Do you mean "briefly"? "shortly" in this context means "soon". I have a feeling this is a false friend from your native language - I think I've heard it from French or Germans. > 'He missed his "blue," didn't he?' > 'I think he was only tried out a couple of times.' I'm not up with Eton slang, so I don't know if "varsity" is the right word. But yes, he failed to get into the school team for <some sport>, despite being in the running. Is the comma really inside the quotes thus: "blue,"? <shudder> SignatureDavid > Is the comma really inside the quotes thus: "blue,"? <shudder> Yet more shudder on its way. Have a look at these: < http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/japan/article6261356.ece >, from fourth paragraph on, < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/11/sri-lanka-civilian-deaths >, from third paragraph on, and I bet there are others. These aren't even single mishaps, but instead appear to be house rules. Perhaps not even as lethal as swine flu, but nevertheless equally inexorably spreading. Ilpo In article <8934bafa-8063-434a-8ced-19cacb1acbe5 @s21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, ilpo478@hotmail.com says... > > Is the comma really inside the quotes thus: "blue,"? <shudder> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > even as lethal as swine flu, but nevertheless equally inexorably > spreading. Those are correct in BrE. The example given by Marius isn't. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >In article <8934bafa-8063-434a-8ced-19cacb1acbe5 >@s21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, ilpo478@hotmail.com says... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Those are correct in BrE. The example given by Marius isn't. The example: "We have been consistently warning against a bloodbath, and the large-scale killing of civilians, including more than 100 children this weekend, appears to show that the bloodbath has become a reality," Gordon Weiss, a UN spokesman, said. is correct because what the spokesman said was a complete sentence terminated by a full-stop/period: We have been consistently warning against a bloodbath, and the large-scale killing of civilians, including more than 100 children this weekend, appears to show that the bloodbath has become a reality. When a full sentence is quoted within another sentence the full-stop is replaced by a comma. Other end-of-sentence marks are retained. Go away! "Go away!" he said. Why are you still here? "Why are you still here?" he asked. You should leave. "You should leave," he said. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >In article <8934bafa-8063-434a-8ced-19cacb1acbe5 >@s21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, ilpo478@hotmail.com says... >> >> > Is the comma really inside the quotes thus: "blue,"? <shudder> >> >> Yet more shudder on its way. Have a look at these: [snip't] >Those are correct in BrE. The example given by Marius isn't. Marius' transcription may be at fault. My copy of the book says: 'He missed his "blue", didn't he?' and this is also on page 152, where Marius' copy has it. SignaturePaul On 11 touko, 17:23, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote: > In article <8934bafa-8063-434a-8ced-19cacb1acbe5 > @s21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, ilpo...@hotmail.com says... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > <http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/markets/japan/article6... > Those are correct in BrE. The example given by Marius isn't. It isn't? So a mere mistake made the Omrud shudder, and I misinterpreted his point. But it is the logic, or lack of it, in my examples that make me shudder. I imagined this to be an American thing, and Brits to be logical rather than conventional, as is (or at least was at the time of writing) the conception of this writer: http://grammartips.homestead.com/inside.html "Now, keep in mind that this comma and period inside the quotation marks business is strictly American usage. The British don't do it that way. They are inclined to place commas and periods logically rather than conventionally, depending on whether the punctuation belongs to the quotation or to the sentence that contains the quotation, just as we do with question marks and exclamation points." What also makes me shudder is when sensible practices are being replaced by traditions, especially someone else's. I see now that the above quotation is already outdated. On top of that, it appears that another level of complexity has been added, in which obtaining the correct punctuation requires considering the completeness of the quotation and who knows what other factors, just to make things difficult enough. Ilpo > On 11 touko, 17:23, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > thing, and Brits to be logical rather than conventional, as is (or at > least was at the time of writing) the conception of this writer: I shuddered because it is a book by an English writer and should not be home to American punctuation placement conventions. These are all well and good in American books of course. It may be that the North American poster transcribed it according to the local rules. SignatureDavid in a Hilton > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 152 > ------- No, Eton was the school where Le Bas was his house master. "college" is not a school - at least, not in UK English at that time, although nowadays it may be. Here, it means one of the 20 or so colleges at Oxford or Cambridge University. Yes, a "blue" is what you get for making the university team, in certain recognised sports. My daughter got one. If you make a school team, you are eligible for "colours", not a "blue". But, unlike the university blues, not all who make the school team get their colours - just the best or most dedicated ones. -- > > This seems to be Eton. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > who make the school team get their colours - just the best > or most dedicated ones. Thanks for clarifying this. Marius Hancu >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > not a "blue". But, unlike the university blues, not all > who make the school team get their colours - just the best Didn't somebody say here a few days ago that Eton (or Harrow?) originated the "blue" and that Oxford and Cambridge took it up afterwards? Note that it's Oxford and Cambridge who award a "blue" - other universities have other names or no specific names other than "colours". The WikiP page says "and some schools" (that would mean 11 - 18 schools, not universities). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_Sporting_Blue If Eton is included in those schools, it's not clear from the excerpt whether Le Bas is talking about Eton colours or Oxford university colours. SignatureDavid >bert wrote: >>> Hello: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >whether Le Bas is talking about Eton colours or Oxford university >colours. The passage Marius is asking about is set in the university and describes a visit by the schoolmaster Le Bas to the Oxford college where the narrator is now an undergraduate. Le Bas is asking about another former pupil of his who went to the same college, and missed his blue. They are talking about rowing, and Le Bas is making sure he's up to date with news of his former pupils' progress at the university and generally. It's about keeping up with who's doing what. A schoolmaster Like Le Bas felt he needed to keep up some of his connections with the universities and with or about those he had influenced (and to know which ones he could safely drop). SignaturePaul > Yes, a "blue" is what you get for making the university team, in certain > recognised sports. My daughter got one. If you make a school team, you > are eligible for "colours", not a "blue". But, unlike the university > blues, not all who make the school team get their colours - just the > best or most dedicated ones. Beg to differ. As I posted last week, Eton and Harrow award light and dark blues respectively. The chap they're talking about missed his (Eton) blue. >> Yes, a "blue" is what you get for making the university team, in certain >> recognised sports. My daughter got one. If you make a school team, you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Beg to differ. As I posted last week, Eton and Harrow award light and > dark blues respectively. No, they don't. The colours of those schools are indeed light blue and dark blue respectively, and were adopted by Cambridge and Oxford respectively. But -certainly in the case of Harrow and almost certainly in the case of Eton - the expression "blue" is not used in that sense. I can't speak for Eton, but at Harrow it would be "flannels" for cricket and a "Lion" for Rugby Football or Harrow Football. > The chap they're talking about missed his (Eton) blue. No, Paul Wolff's explanation elsewhere in the thread is the correct one. Regards Jonathan >"Derek Turner" <frderek@cesmail.net> wrote in message >news:76qapcF1c8mdhU1@mid.individual.net... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Jonathan Wa-hey! Thank you. A pity it's not the Herdwick season. The trouble with a democracy like a.u.e. is that so many people hold a wrong opinion. SignaturePaul |
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