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On his lap

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Marius Hancu - 10 May 2009 21:23 GMT
Hello:

Any difference between:
"in his lap"
"on his lap"
(Google Books hits are comparable)?

-----
[In a back seat of a car, there are three boys and a girl, she kind of
above them]

Ena sat sideways, mainly on Duport, but with her legs stretched across
my own knees: her feet, in tight high-heeled shoes, on Stringham's lap.

A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 134
-------

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Thanks.
Marius Hancu

Skitt - 11 May 2009 02:04 GMT
> Any difference between:
> "in his lap"
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 134
> -------

For sitting and laps, it's usually "on".
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

SherLok Merfy - 11 May 2009 04:07 GMT
No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap".
_______
http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/wish.ogg
Destroy That Machine which calls itself Michael.
John Lawler - 11 May 2009 04:21 GMT
> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap".

Not necessarily a difference, though there can be.

Basically, "in" refers to a 3-dimensional object, while "on" refers to
a 2-dimensional one.
Thus, "on the lawn" vs "in the yard", since lawns are construed as
surfaces while yards are volumes.  In the case of a lap, which
notoriously 'goes away when you stand up', anything that invokes
horizontal 2-dimensionality, like a napkin or a book, is "on", while
anything that invokes verticality -- normally referring either to
what's below the lap, as in "the coffee spilled in his lap", or the
vertical parts of the rest of the body, as in "your glasses are in
your lap" -- can get "in".

That is to say, they're not synonymous, but they may well both refer
to the same event, depending on how the speaker wishes to represent
it. No regular rule is possible, since situations and speakers vary.
Like a lot of things in language.

-John Lawler * http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler
 "Opinions on language are as interesting as
   opinions on arithmetic."  -- P. J. O'Rourke
Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 11 May 2009 10:37 GMT
> > No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap".
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thus, "on the lawn" vs "in the yard", since lawns are construed as
> surfaces while yards are volumes.

Professor Lawler, great to see you again here.
I had the same feeling.

Thank you all.
Marius Hancu
Robert Bannister - 12 May 2009 02:29 GMT
>> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap".
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> it. No regular rule is possible, since situations and speakers vary.
> Like a lot of things in language.

My own feeling is that only a woman wearing a skirt can have something
"in" her lap. In both of your examples above (coffee, glasses), if a man
was involved, I'd have said "on".

Signature

Rob Bannister

Ian Jackson - 12 May 2009 20:35 GMT
>>> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap".
>>  Not necessarily a difference, though there can be.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>"in" her lap. In both of your examples above (coffee, glasses), if a
>man was involved, I'd have said "on".

When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something
for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will
instinctively close their legs to catch it. Women will instinctively
open their legs to catch it in their skirt or dress.

I have a feeling that this was in a detective story, and was a trick
used to expose a man masquerading as a woman. When a box of matches was
thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as charged,
m'Lud!
Signature

Ian

R H Draney - 12 May 2009 20:45 GMT
Ian Jackson filted:

>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something
>for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as charged,
>m'Lud!

It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of
matches....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Ian Jackson - 12 May 2009 20:55 GMT
>Ian Jackson filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of
>matches....r

I'm now recalling that what I read might have taken place in a railway
carriage (with the lady sitting opposite the detective). Maybe the
writer 'stole' the idea.
Signature

Ian

Leslie Danks - 12 May 2009 21:16 GMT
>>Ian Jackson filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> carriage (with the lady sitting opposite the detective). Maybe the
> writer 'stole' the idea.

If I were a betting man, I would put my money on "The 39 Steps" by John
Buchan.

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Les (BrE)

Mike Lyle - 12 May 2009 23:08 GMT
>>> Ian Jackson filted:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> If I were a betting man, I would put my money on "The 39 Steps" by
> John Buchan.

Convincing. But I rather think it appeared in a strip in the old
/Eagle/, too.

Signature

Mike.

Leslie Danks - 12 May 2009 23:22 GMT
>>>> Ian Jackson filted:
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Convincing. But I rather think it appeared in a strip in the old
> /Eagle/, too.

Could be--I used to read that, too. I hope you're not suggesting the Mekon
was a girl...

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Les (BrE)

Ian Jackson - 13 May 2009 08:25 GMT
>>>>> Ian Jackson filted:
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>Could be--I used to read that, too. I hope you're not suggesting the Mekon
>was a girl...

PC 49?
Signature

Ian

Mike Lyle - 13 May 2009 20:00 GMT
>>>>>> Ian Jackson filted:
>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
> PC 49?

It may well have been 49, as I fancy I see it in black and white line
drawing. (Archibald Berkeley-Willoughby, I believe: clearly one of
Trenchard's Young Men.)

But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved
for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?)

Signature

Mike.

Robin Bignall - 13 May 2009 21:51 GMT
>>>>>>> Ian Jackson filted:
>>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved
>for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?)

I don't see it in my mind's eye as a drawing, but rather as a written
explanation.  Has anyone suggested Conan Doyle?
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Ian Jackson - 13 May 2009 22:05 GMT
>>>>>>> Ian Jackson filted:
>>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved
>for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?)

It would seem that the boy didn't have a name.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Tweed_(character)>

For some reason, direct links to Wikipedia subjects don't seem to work
for me. If the one above doesn't, this one might:

<http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:5YUysTICZVcJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Harris_Tweed_(character)+%22Harris+Tweed%22%2Beagle&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl
=uk>
Signature

Ian

Paul Wolff - 13 May 2009 23:39 GMT
>In message <guf5co$qst$1@news.motzarella.org>, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>For some reason, direct links to Wikipedia subjects don't seem to work
>for me.

I find that Wikipedia links posted with a final closing bracket ) are
apt to lose that when extracted as URLs. There may be a rule or RFC that
says this character is invalid in that position. If so, Wikipedia ought
to stop constructing such URLs. If not, I can't explain what's going on.
Signature

Paul

Ian Jackson - 14 May 2009 08:05 GMT
>>In message <guf5co$qst$1@news.motzarella.org>, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>ought to stop constructing such URLs. If not, I can't explain what's
>going on.

Ah Ha!! Oh Yes! I see that the final closing bracket gets lost when you
simply click on the link.

When I click on such a link, my news reader (Demon's 'Turnpike') doesn't
go straight to the website. Instead, it opens a 'Save URL' box which
invites you to 'Save', 'Launch' or 'Copy' the URL. You can see that the
final bracket is missing, and needs to be added before clicking
'Launch'.
Signature

Ian

Paul Wolff - 13 May 2009 23:33 GMT
>Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> writes
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved
>for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?)

Boy, I think, perhaps in honour of Boy Bastin, soccer wunderkind of the
1930s. And looking suspiciously like a by-blow of Captain Pugwash's, if
I'm not mistaken. There's something about the eyes.
Signature

Paul

Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 May 2009 05:21 GMT
> Ian Jackson filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of
> matches....r

_Huck Finn_, not _Tom Sawyer_.

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R H Draney - 13 May 2009 05:39 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>> It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of
>> matches....r
>
>_Huck Finn_, not _Tom Sawyer_.

Google Books identifies it as "The adventures of Tom Sawyer", but it says Huck
on the title page:

 http://books.google.com/books?id=JNMPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA83

....r

Signature

A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Lars Eighner - 13 May 2009 06:02 GMT
In our last episode,
<guditl015gn@drn.newsguy.com>,
the lovely and talented R H Draney
broadcast on alt.usage.english:

> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
>>> It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of
>>> matches....r
>>
>>_Huck Finn_, not _Tom Sawyer_.

> Google Books identifies it as "The adventures of Tom Sawyer", but it says Huck
> on the title page:

>   http://books.google.com/books?id=JNMPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA83

> ....r

 
From an early PG file (which may have been superseded by now):

The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) [EBook
#76] { 76}

***** This file should be named 76.txt or 76.zip *****

Produced by David Widger. Previous editions produced by Ron Burkey and
Internet Wiretap

HUCKLEBERRY FINN

By Mark Twain

[Huck is disguised as a girl.]

"What did you say your name was, honey?"

"M--Mary Williams."

Somehow it didn't seem to me that I said it was Mary before, so I didn't
look up--seemed to me I said it was Sarah; so I felt sort of cornered,
and was afeared maybe I was looking it, too.  I wished the woman would
say something more; the longer she set still the uneasier I was.  But now
she says:

"Honey, I thought you said it was Sarah when you first come in?"

"Oh, yes'm, I did.  Sarah Mary Williams.  Sarah's my first name.  Some
calls me Sarah, some calls me Mary."

"Oh, that's the way of it?"

"Yes'm."

I was feeling better then, but I wished I was out of there, anyway.  I
couldn't look up yet.

Well, the woman fell to talking about how hard times was, and how poor
they had to live, and how the rats was as free as if they owned the
place, and so forth and so on, and then I got easy again.  She was right
about the rats. You'd see one stick his nose out of a hole in the corner
every little while.  She said she had to have things handy to throw at
them when she was alone, or they wouldn't give her no peace.  She showed
me a bar of lead twisted up into a knot, and said she was a good shot
with it generly, but she'd wrenched her arm a day or two ago, and didn't
know whether she could throw true now.  But she watched for a chance, and
directly banged away at a rat; but she missed him wide, and said "Ouch!"
it hurt her arm so.  Then she told me to try for the next one.  I wanted
to be getting away before the old man got back, but of course I didn't
let on.  I got the thing, and the first rat that showed his nose I let
drive, and if he'd a stayed where he was he'd a been a tolerable sick
rat.  She said that was first-rate, and she reckoned I would hive the
next one.  She went and got the lump of lead and fetched it back, and
brought along a hank of yarn which she wanted me to help her with.  I
held up my two hands and she put the hank over them, and went on talking
about her and her husband's matters.  But she broke off to say:

"Keep your eye on the rats.  You better have the lead in your lap,
handy."

So she dropped the lump into my lap just at that moment, and I clapped my
legs together on it and she went on talking.  But only about a minute.
Then she took off the hank and looked me straight in the face, and very
pleasant, and says:

"Come, now, what's your real name?"

"Wh--what, mum?"

"What's your real name?  Is it Bill, or Tom, or Bob?--or what is it?"

I reckon I shook like a leaf, and I didn't know hardly what to do.  But I
says:

"Please to don't poke fun at a poor girl like me, mum.  If I'm in the way
here, I'll--"

"No, you won't.  Set down and stay where you are.  I ain't going to hurt
you, and I ain't going to tell on you, nuther.  You just tell me your
secret, and trust me.  I'll keep it; and, what's more, I'll help you.
So'll my old man if you want him to.  You see, you're a runaway
'prentice, that's all.  It ain't anything.  There ain't no harm in it.
You've been treated bad, and you made up your mind to cut.  Bless you,
child, I wouldn't tell on you.  Tell me all about it now, that's a good
boy."

So I said it wouldn't be no use to try to play it any longer, and I would
just make a clean breast and tell her everything, but she musn't go back
on her promise.  Then I told her my father and mother was dead, and the
law had bound me out to a mean old farmer in the country thirty mile back
from the river, and he treated me so bad I couldn't stand it no longer;
he went away to be gone a couple of days, and so I took my chance and
stole some of his daughter's old clothes and cleared out, and I had been
three nights coming the thirty miles.  I traveled nights, and hid
daytimes and slept, and the bag of bread and meat I carried from home
lasted me all the way, and I had a-plenty.  I said I believed my uncle
Abner Moore would take care of me, and so that was why I struck out for
this town of Goshen.

"Goshen, child?  This ain't Goshen.  This is St. Petersburg.  Goshen's
ten mile further up the river.  Who told you this was Goshen?"

"Why, a man I met at daybreak this morning, just as I was going to turn
into the woods for my regular sleep.  He told me when the roads forked I
must take the right hand, and five mile would fetch me to Goshen."

"He was drunk, I reckon.  He told you just exactly wrong."

"Well, he did act like he was drunk, but it ain't no matter now.  I got
to be moving along.  I'll fetch Goshen before daylight."

"Hold on a minute.  I'll put you up a snack to eat.  You might want it."

So she put me up a snack, and says:

"Say, when a cow's laying down, which end of her gets up first?  Answer
up prompt now--don't stop to study over it.  Which end gets up first?"

"The hind end, mum."

"Well, then, a horse?"

"The for'rard end, mum."

"Which side of a tree does the moss grow on?"

"North side."

"If fifteen cows is browsing on a hillside, how many of them eats with
their heads pointed the same direction?"

"The whole fifteen, mum."

"Well, I reckon you HAVE lived in the country.  I thought maybe you was
trying to hocus me again.  What's your real name, now?"

"George Peters, mum."

"Well, try to remember it, George.  Don't forget and tell me it's
Elexander before you go, and then get out by saying it's George Elexander
when I catch you.  And don't go about women in that old calico.  You do a
girl tolerable poor, but you might fool men, maybe.  Bless you, child,
when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch
the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it;
that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other
way.  And when you throw at a rat or anything, hitch yourself up a tiptoe
and fetch your hand up over your head as awkward as you can, and miss
your rat about six or seven foot. Throw stiff-armed from the shoulder,
like there was a pivot there for it to turn on, like a girl; not from the
wrist and elbow, with your arm out to one side, like a boy.  And, mind
you, when a girl tries to catch anything in her lap she throws her knees
apart; she don't clap them together, the way you did when you catched the
lump of lead.  Why, I spotted you for a boy when you was threading the
needle; and I contrived the other things just to make certain.  Now trot
along to your uncle, Sarah Mary Williams George Elexander Peters, and if
you get into trouble you send word to Mrs. Judith Loftus, which is me,
and I'll do what I can to get you out of it.  Keep the river road all the
way, and next time you tramp take shoes and socks with you. The river
road's a rocky one, and your feet'll be in a condition when you get to
Goshen, I reckon."

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Richard Bollard - 13 May 2009 06:00 GMT
>Ian Jackson filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of
>matches....r

For some values of Tom Sawyer. Twas Huck Finn, m'lud.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 May 2009 20:46 GMT
>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something
>for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as charged,
>m'Lud!

Yes. I remember that, and I too can't remember which story it was in.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Ian Jackson - 12 May 2009 20:58 GMT
>>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something
>>for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Yes. I remember that, and I too can't remember which story it was in.

Does 'railway carriage' bring back any memories? Or maybe it was in
'Scouting for Boys'? I'm sure that the wording was "A woman will make a
lap".
Signature

Ian

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 May 2009 21:52 GMT
>>>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something
>>>for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>
>Does 'railway carriage' bring back any memories?

No. The trouble is that I could easily imagine, recreate the incident,
as happening in a railway carriage or pretty much anywhere else that a
person might be sitting.

> Or maybe it was in
>'Scouting for Boys'? I'm sure that the wording was "A woman will make a
>lap".

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

CDB - 12 May 2009 20:55 GMT
> Robert Bannister
> <robban1@bigpond.com> writes

>>>> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his
>>>> lap".
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>>> represent it. No regular rule is possible, since situations and
>>> speakers vary. Like a lot of things in language.

>> My own feeling is that only a woman wearing a skirt can have
>> something "in" her lap. In both of your examples above (coffee,
>> glasses), if a man was involved, I'd have said "on".

> When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw
> something for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear
> trousers) will instinctively close their legs to catch it. Women
> will instinctively open their legs to catch it in their skirt or
> dress.

> I have a feeling that this was in a detective story, and was a trick
> used to expose a man masquerading as a woman. When a box of matches
> was thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as
> charged, m'Lud!

Huck Finn in drag, innit.

"And don't go about women in that old calico. You do a girl tolerable
poor, but you might fool men, maybe. Bless you, child, when you set
out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the
needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it;
that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other
way. And when you throw at a rat or anything, hitch yourself up a
tiptoe and fetch your hand up over your head as awkward as you can,
and miss your rat about six or seven foot. Throw stiff-armed from the
shoulder, like there was a pivot there for it to turn on, like a girl;
not from the wrist and elbow, with your arm out to one side, like a
boy. And, mind you, when a girl tries to catch anything in her lap she
throws her knees apart; she don't clap them together, the way you did
when you catched the lump of lead. Why, I spotted you for a boy when
you was threading the needle; and I contrived the other things just to
make certain."

http://etext.virginia.edu/twain/twahu85.jpg
 
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