On his lap
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Marius Hancu - 10 May 2009 21:23 GMT Hello:
Any difference between: "in his lap" "on his lap" (Google Books hits are comparable)?
----- [In a back seat of a car, there are three boys and a girl, she kind of above them]
Ena sat sideways, mainly on Duport, but with her legs stretched across my own knees: her feet, in tight high-heeled shoes, on Stringham's lap.
A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 134 -------
 Signature Thanks. Marius Hancu
Skitt - 11 May 2009 02:04 GMT > Any difference between: > "in his lap" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > A Dance to the Music of Time, Spring, by Anthony Powell, p. 134 > ------- For sitting and laps, it's usually "on".
 Signature Skitt (AmE)
SherLok Merfy - 11 May 2009 04:07 GMT No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap". _______ http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/wish.ogg Destroy That Machine which calls itself Michael.
John Lawler - 11 May 2009 04:21 GMT > No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap". Not necessarily a difference, though there can be.
Basically, "in" refers to a 3-dimensional object, while "on" refers to a 2-dimensional one. Thus, "on the lawn" vs "in the yard", since lawns are construed as surfaces while yards are volumes. In the case of a lap, which notoriously 'goes away when you stand up', anything that invokes horizontal 2-dimensionality, like a napkin or a book, is "on", while anything that invokes verticality -- normally referring either to what's below the lap, as in "the coffee spilled in his lap", or the vertical parts of the rest of the body, as in "your glasses are in your lap" -- can get "in".
That is to say, they're not synonymous, but they may well both refer to the same event, depending on how the speaker wishes to represent it. No regular rule is possible, since situations and speakers vary. Like a lot of things in language.
-John Lawler * http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler "Opinions on language are as interesting as opinions on arithmetic." -- P. J. O'Rourke
Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 11 May 2009 10:37 GMT > > No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap". > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Thus, "on the lawn" vs "in the yard", since lawns are construed as > surfaces while yards are volumes. Professor Lawler, great to see you again here. I had the same feeling.
Thank you all. Marius Hancu
Robert Bannister - 12 May 2009 02:29 GMT >> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap". > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > it. No regular rule is possible, since situations and speakers vary. > Like a lot of things in language. My own feeling is that only a woman wearing a skirt can have something "in" her lap. In both of your examples above (coffee, glasses), if a man was involved, I'd have said "on".
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Ian Jackson - 12 May 2009 20:35 GMT >>> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his lap". >> Not necessarily a difference, though there can be. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >"in" her lap. In both of your examples above (coffee, glasses), if a >man was involved, I'd have said "on". When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will instinctively close their legs to catch it. Women will instinctively open their legs to catch it in their skirt or dress.
I have a feeling that this was in a detective story, and was a trick used to expose a man masquerading as a woman. When a box of matches was thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as charged, m'Lud!
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R H Draney - 12 May 2009 20:45 GMT Ian Jackson filted:
>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something >for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as charged, >m'Lud! It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of matches....r
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Ian Jackson - 12 May 2009 20:55 GMT >Ian Jackson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of >matches....r I'm now recalling that what I read might have taken place in a railway carriage (with the lady sitting opposite the detective). Maybe the writer 'stole' the idea.
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Leslie Danks - 12 May 2009 21:16 GMT >>Ian Jackson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > carriage (with the lady sitting opposite the detective). Maybe the > writer 'stole' the idea. If I were a betting man, I would put my money on "The 39 Steps" by John Buchan.
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Mike Lyle - 12 May 2009 23:08 GMT >>> Ian Jackson filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If I were a betting man, I would put my money on "The 39 Steps" by > John Buchan. Convincing. But I rather think it appeared in a strip in the old /Eagle/, too.
 Signature Mike.
Leslie Danks - 12 May 2009 23:22 GMT >>>> Ian Jackson filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Convincing. But I rather think it appeared in a strip in the old > /Eagle/, too. Could be--I used to read that, too. I hope you're not suggesting the Mekon was a girl...
 Signature Les (BrE)
Ian Jackson - 13 May 2009 08:25 GMT >>>>> Ian Jackson filted: >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Could be--I used to read that, too. I hope you're not suggesting the Mekon >was a girl... PC 49?
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Mike Lyle - 13 May 2009 20:00 GMT >>>>>> Ian Jackson filted: >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> > PC 49? It may well have been 49, as I fancy I see it in black and white line drawing. (Archibald Berkeley-Willoughby, I believe: clearly one of Trenchard's Young Men.)
But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?)
 Signature Mike.
Robin Bignall - 13 May 2009 21:51 GMT >>>>>>> Ian Jackson filted: >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved >for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?) I don't see it in my mind's eye as a drawing, but rather as a written explanation. Has anyone suggested Conan Doyle?
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Ian Jackson - 13 May 2009 22:05 GMT >>>>>>> Ian Jackson filted: >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved >for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?) It would seem that the boy didn't have a name. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harris_Tweed_(character)>
For some reason, direct links to Wikipedia subjects don't seem to work for me. If the one above doesn't, this one might:
<http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:5YUysTICZVcJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Harris_Tweed_(character)+%22Harris+Tweed%22%2Beagle&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl =uk>
 Signature Ian
Paul Wolff - 13 May 2009 23:39 GMT >In message <guf5co$qst$1@news.motzarella.org>, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@ >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >For some reason, direct links to Wikipedia subjects don't seem to work >for me. I find that Wikipedia links posted with a final closing bracket ) are apt to lose that when extracted as URLs. There may be a rule or RFC that says this character is invalid in that position. If so, Wikipedia ought to stop constructing such URLs. If not, I can't explain what's going on.
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Ian Jackson - 14 May 2009 08:05 GMT >>In message <guf5co$qst$1@news.motzarella.org>, Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@ >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >ought to stop constructing such URLs. If not, I can't explain what's >going on. Ah Ha!! Oh Yes! I see that the final closing bracket gets lost when you simply click on the link.
When I click on such a link, my news reader (Demon's 'Turnpike') doesn't go straight to the website. Instead, it opens a 'Save URL' box which invites you to 'Save', 'Launch' or 'Copy' the URL. You can see that the final bracket is missing, and needs to be added before clicking 'Launch'.
 Signature Ian
Paul Wolff - 13 May 2009 23:33 GMT >Ian Jackson wrote: >> Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at> writes [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >But I suppose it could have been Harris Tweed, having a mystery solved >for him by the boy. (Did the boy have a name?) Boy, I think, perhaps in honour of Boy Bastin, soccer wunderkind of the 1930s. And looking suspiciously like a by-blow of Captain Pugwash's, if I'm not mistaken. There's something about the eyes.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 May 2009 05:21 GMT > Ian Jackson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of > matches....r _Huck Finn_, not _Tom Sawyer_.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |On a scale of one to ten... 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it sucked. Palo Alto, CA 94304
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R H Draney - 13 May 2009 05:39 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>> It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of >> matches....r > >_Huck Finn_, not _Tom Sawyer_. Google Books identifies it as "The adventures of Tom Sawyer", but it says Huck on the title page:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JNMPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA83
....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Lars Eighner - 13 May 2009 06:02 GMT In our last episode, <guditl015gn@drn.newsguy.com>, the lovely and talented R H Draney broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> >>> It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of >>> matches....r >> >>_Huck Finn_, not _Tom Sawyer_.
> Google Books identifies it as "The adventures of Tom Sawyer", but it says Huck > on the title page:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=JNMPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA83
> ....r From an early PG file (which may have been superseded by now):
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens) [EBook #76] { 76}
***** This file should be named 76.txt or 76.zip *****
Produced by David Widger. Previous editions produced by Ron Burkey and Internet Wiretap
HUCKLEBERRY FINN
By Mark Twain
[Huck is disguised as a girl.]
"What did you say your name was, honey?"
"M--Mary Williams."
Somehow it didn't seem to me that I said it was Mary before, so I didn't look up--seemed to me I said it was Sarah; so I felt sort of cornered, and was afeared maybe I was looking it, too. I wished the woman would say something more; the longer she set still the uneasier I was. But now she says:
"Honey, I thought you said it was Sarah when you first come in?"
"Oh, yes'm, I did. Sarah Mary Williams. Sarah's my first name. Some calls me Sarah, some calls me Mary."
"Oh, that's the way of it?"
"Yes'm."
I was feeling better then, but I wished I was out of there, anyway. I couldn't look up yet.
Well, the woman fell to talking about how hard times was, and how poor they had to live, and how the rats was as free as if they owned the place, and so forth and so on, and then I got easy again. She was right about the rats. You'd see one stick his nose out of a hole in the corner every little while. She said she had to have things handy to throw at them when she was alone, or they wouldn't give her no peace. She showed me a bar of lead twisted up into a knot, and said she was a good shot with it generly, but she'd wrenched her arm a day or two ago, and didn't know whether she could throw true now. But she watched for a chance, and directly banged away at a rat; but she missed him wide, and said "Ouch!" it hurt her arm so. Then she told me to try for the next one. I wanted to be getting away before the old man got back, but of course I didn't let on. I got the thing, and the first rat that showed his nose I let drive, and if he'd a stayed where he was he'd a been a tolerable sick rat. She said that was first-rate, and she reckoned I would hive the next one. She went and got the lump of lead and fetched it back, and brought along a hank of yarn which she wanted me to help her with. I held up my two hands and she put the hank over them, and went on talking about her and her husband's matters. But she broke off to say:
"Keep your eye on the rats. You better have the lead in your lap, handy."
So she dropped the lump into my lap just at that moment, and I clapped my legs together on it and she went on talking. But only about a minute. Then she took off the hank and looked me straight in the face, and very pleasant, and says:
"Come, now, what's your real name?"
"Wh--what, mum?"
"What's your real name? Is it Bill, or Tom, or Bob?--or what is it?"
I reckon I shook like a leaf, and I didn't know hardly what to do. But I says:
"Please to don't poke fun at a poor girl like me, mum. If I'm in the way here, I'll--"
"No, you won't. Set down and stay where you are. I ain't going to hurt you, and I ain't going to tell on you, nuther. You just tell me your secret, and trust me. I'll keep it; and, what's more, I'll help you. So'll my old man if you want him to. You see, you're a runaway 'prentice, that's all. It ain't anything. There ain't no harm in it. You've been treated bad, and you made up your mind to cut. Bless you, child, I wouldn't tell on you. Tell me all about it now, that's a good boy."
So I said it wouldn't be no use to try to play it any longer, and I would just make a clean breast and tell her everything, but she musn't go back on her promise. Then I told her my father and mother was dead, and the law had bound me out to a mean old farmer in the country thirty mile back from the river, and he treated me so bad I couldn't stand it no longer; he went away to be gone a couple of days, and so I took my chance and stole some of his daughter's old clothes and cleared out, and I had been three nights coming the thirty miles. I traveled nights, and hid daytimes and slept, and the bag of bread and meat I carried from home lasted me all the way, and I had a-plenty. I said I believed my uncle Abner Moore would take care of me, and so that was why I struck out for this town of Goshen.
"Goshen, child? This ain't Goshen. This is St. Petersburg. Goshen's ten mile further up the river. Who told you this was Goshen?"
"Why, a man I met at daybreak this morning, just as I was going to turn into the woods for my regular sleep. He told me when the roads forked I must take the right hand, and five mile would fetch me to Goshen."
"He was drunk, I reckon. He told you just exactly wrong."
"Well, he did act like he was drunk, but it ain't no matter now. I got to be moving along. I'll fetch Goshen before daylight."
"Hold on a minute. I'll put you up a snack to eat. You might want it."
So she put me up a snack, and says:
"Say, when a cow's laying down, which end of her gets up first? Answer up prompt now--don't stop to study over it. Which end gets up first?"
"The hind end, mum."
"Well, then, a horse?"
"The for'rard end, mum."
"Which side of a tree does the moss grow on?"
"North side."
"If fifteen cows is browsing on a hillside, how many of them eats with their heads pointed the same direction?"
"The whole fifteen, mum."
"Well, I reckon you HAVE lived in the country. I thought maybe you was trying to hocus me again. What's your real name, now?"
"George Peters, mum."
"Well, try to remember it, George. Don't forget and tell me it's Elexander before you go, and then get out by saying it's George Elexander when I catch you. And don't go about women in that old calico. You do a girl tolerable poor, but you might fool men, maybe. Bless you, child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way. And when you throw at a rat or anything, hitch yourself up a tiptoe and fetch your hand up over your head as awkward as you can, and miss your rat about six or seven foot. Throw stiff-armed from the shoulder, like there was a pivot there for it to turn on, like a girl; not from the wrist and elbow, with your arm out to one side, like a boy. And, mind you, when a girl tries to catch anything in her lap she throws her knees apart; she don't clap them together, the way you did when you catched the lump of lead. Why, I spotted you for a boy when you was threading the needle; and I contrived the other things just to make certain. Now trot along to your uncle, Sarah Mary Williams George Elexander Peters, and if you get into trouble you send word to Mrs. Judith Loftus, which is me, and I'll do what I can to get you out of it. Keep the river road all the way, and next time you tramp take shoes and socks with you. The river road's a rocky one, and your feet'll be in a condition when you get to Goshen, I reckon."
 Signature Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com 112 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term. Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't.
Richard Bollard - 13 May 2009 06:00 GMT >Ian Jackson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >It's in "Tom Sawyer", and it was a "lump of lead" rather than a box of >matches....r For some values of Tom Sawyer. Twas Huck Finn, m'lud.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 May 2009 20:46 GMT >When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something >for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as charged, >m'Lud! Yes. I remember that, and I too can't remember which story it was in.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Ian Jackson - 12 May 2009 20:58 GMT >>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something >>for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Yes. I remember that, and I too can't remember which story it was in. Does 'railway carriage' bring back any memories? Or maybe it was in 'Scouting for Boys'? I'm sure that the wording was "A woman will make a lap".
 Signature Ian
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 12 May 2009 21:52 GMT >>>When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw something >>>for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear trousers) will [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >Does 'railway carriage' bring back any memories? No. The trouble is that I could easily imagine, recreate the incident, as happening in a railway carriage or pretty much anywhere else that a person might be sitting.
> Or maybe it was in >'Scouting for Boys'? I'm sure that the wording was "A woman will make a >lap".
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
CDB - 12 May 2009 20:55 GMT > Robert Bannister > <robban1@bigpond.com> writes
>>>> No significant difference is between "in his lap" and "on his >>>> lap". [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>> represent it. No regular rule is possible, since situations and >>> speakers vary. Like a lot of things in language.
>> My own feeling is that only a woman wearing a skirt can have >> something "in" her lap. In both of your examples above (coffee, >> glasses), if a man was involved, I'd have said "on".
> When I was very young, I remember 'learning' that if you throw > something for someone to catch on their knees, men (who wear > trousers) will instinctively close their legs to catch it. Women > will instinctively open their legs to catch it in their skirt or > dress.
> I have a feeling that this was in a detective story, and was a trick > used to expose a man masquerading as a woman. When a box of matches > was thrown for 'her' to catch, she closed 'her' legs. Guilty as > charged, m'Lud! Huck Finn in drag, innit.
"And don't go about women in that old calico. You do a girl tolerable poor, but you might fool men, maybe. Bless you, child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way. And when you throw at a rat or anything, hitch yourself up a tiptoe and fetch your hand up over your head as awkward as you can, and miss your rat about six or seven foot. Throw stiff-armed from the shoulder, like there was a pivot there for it to turn on, like a girl; not from the wrist and elbow, with your arm out to one side, like a boy. And, mind you, when a girl tries to catch anything in her lap she throws her knees apart; she don't clap them together, the way you did when you catched the lump of lead. Why, I spotted you for a boy when you was threading the needle; and I contrived the other things just to make certain."
http://etext.virginia.edu/twain/twahu85.jpg
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