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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009New text found in the library of Ashur-uballit
Most Englishmen of my acquaintance are Assyriologists. They would not use a word like "arse" in front of their proctologists. Professors who have earned their chairs deciph'ring texts from Babylon Will never rest their "bums" on them, the word they'll use is "sit-upon". No self-respecting scholar of Akkadian or Elamite Would soil his mouth with anything as crude as "I don't give a shite". "A tupp'ny toss" sounds horrid to a British Sumerologist. He may get "tipsy" now and then but no one ever sees him "pissed". "The balls of a brass monkey", to an expert in cuneiform Mean nothing, he will merely wonder why it couldn't be more warm. A Hittitologist who's asked why some constructions aren't yet parsed Might say "I can't be bothered" but he'll never say "I can't be arsed".  SignatureJames Hogg > Most Englishmen of my acquaintance > are Assyriologists. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Might say "I can't be bothered" > but he'll never say "I can't be arsed". Splendid stuff, but since light verse depends on technical accuracy may I suggest a few slight relineations to preserve the metrical integrity of each line? > Would soil his mouth with anything as crude as > "I don't give a shite". Would soil his mouth with anything As crude as "I don't give a shite". > "A tupp'ny toss" sounds horrid > to a British Sumerologist. "A tupp'ny toss" sounds horrid to A British Sumerologist > "The balls of a brass monkey", > to an expert in cuneiform "The balls of a brass monkey", to An expert in cuneiform (4 syllables, of course) > Might say "I can't be bothered" > but he'll never say "I can't be arsed". Might say "I can't be bothered" but He'll never say "I can't be arsed". SignaturePeter Groves >> Most Englishmen of my acquaintance >> are Assyriologists. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >suggest a few slight relineations to preserve the metrical integrity of >each line? The lines should each be sixteen syllables long, but the word wrap spoiled that in some cases, so I just broke all the lines somewhere and added the indent to show that they were meant to be unbroken. Maybe I should have added a [ Anyway, this morning brought a new verse: A pain in his "left bollock" would give any man some grounds for fear, But if he's versed in Ugaritic he'll say "western hemisphere". On finding a clay tablet from the reign of Darayavahush, He'll say "My goodness!" rather than "Well, shag me with a khazi brush!" SignatureJames > The lines should each be sixteen syllables long, but the word > wrap spoiled that in some cases, so I just broke all the lines > somewhere and added the indent to show that they were meant to be > unbroken. Maybe I should have added a [ No, no, no: The lines should each be sixteen sylla- bles long, but the word wrap spoiled That in some cases, so I just broke all the lines somewhere and add- Ed the indent to show that they were meant to be unbroken. May- Be I should have added a [ I think you forgot to finish it. > Anyway, this morning brought a new verse: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > He'll say "My goodness!" rather than > "Well, shag me with a khazi brush!" SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit |a piece of the moon to chemical kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure (650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green |cheese. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans >> The lines should each be sixteen syllables long, but the word >> wrap spoiled that in some cases, so I just broke all the lines [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > meant to be unbroken. May- > Be I should have added a [ Good effort. >I think you forgot to finish it. It's finished now. A revised and reordered version in the proper format is available as a pdf at http://tinyurl.com/pbywvc SignatureJames James Hogg skreiv: > It's finished now. A revised and reordered version in the proper > format is available as a pdf at > http://tinyurl.com/pbywvc In words that render more than just the usual random rhymery, your poem calls upon the deeds that be the scholar's primary: The academic virtues, beyond time and taste, are simply true. (It doesn't catch the character, but neither was it meant to do.) Thank you. SignatureTrond Engen >James Hogg skreiv: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Thank you. I like måte. SignatureJames >>> Most Englishmen of my acquaintance >>> are Assyriologists. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> Will never rest their "bums" on them, >>> the word they'll use is "sit-upon". >>> No self-respecting scholar of >>> Akkadian or Elamite [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> He may get "tipsy" now and then >>> but no one ever sees him "pissed". >>> "The balls of a brass monkey", >>> to an expert in cuneiform [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> Might say "I can't be bothered" >>> but he'll never say "I can't be arsed". >>> -- >>> James Hogg >> Splendid stuff, but since light verse depends on technical >> accuracy may I suggest a few slight relineations to preserve the >> metrical integrity of each line? You do realise that it's a patter-song, as well as a poem? > The lines should each be sixteen syllables long, but the word > wrap spoiled that in some cases, so I just broke all the lines > somewhere and added the indent to show that they were meant to be > unbroken. Maybe I should have added a [ > Anyway, this morning brought a new verse: > A pain in his "left bollock" would give > any man some grounds for fear, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He'll say "My goodness!" rather than > "Well, shag me with a khazi brush!" And here I was thinking it couldn't get any better. "Western hemisphere" is positively Donnean. The tinyurl for your pdf doesn't work for me, though. >> [channelling WSG, who has not lost his knack in Elysium] > And here I was thinking it couldn't get any better. "Western > hemisphere" is positively Donnean. The tinyurl for your pdf doesn't > work for me, though. Subsequent attempts have revealed that the tinyurl isn't the only problem. When I open the pdf, I get garblage, possibly untranslated code. I have copied the first part of it below; can anybody tell me what I'm doing wrong? %PDF-1.3 %âãÏÓ 1 0 obj << /Count 1 /First 2 0 R /Last 2 0 R endobj 2 0 obj << /Title (u Euphemiss on the Euphrates u) /Dest [ 7 0 R /FitB ] /Parent 1 0 R endobj 3 0 obj << /Producer (Acrobat Distiller 4.05 for Windows) /Creator (Microsoft Word 9.0) /ModDate (D:20090514152351+02'00') /Author (R Supward) /Title (The Wolf on the Fold) /CreationDate (D:20090514152306) endobj 4 0 obj << /Type /Pages /Kids [ 7 0 R ] /Count 1 endobj 6 0 obj << /Type /Catalog /Pages 4 0 R /Outlines 1 0 R /OpenAction [ 7 0 R /XYZ null null null ] /PageMode /UseNone endobj 7 0 obj << /Type /Page /Parent 4 0 R /Resources 8 0 R /Contents 24 0 R /MediaBox [ 0 0 595 842 ] /CropBox [ 0 0 595 842 ] /Rotate 0 endobj 8 0 obj << /ProcSet [ /PDF /Text ] /Font << /F2 23 0 R /F3 11 0 R /F5 9 0 R /F6 13 0 R /F8 29 0 R /F9 28 0 R /F11 33 0 R /TT2 18 0 R >> /ExtGState << /GS1 36 0 R >> /ColorSpace << /Cs5 19 0 R >> endobj 9 0 obj << /Type /Font /Subtype /Type1 /FirstChar 32 /LastChar 181 /Widths [ 250 206 380 500 500 863 770 208 320 320 400 560 250 320 250 250 500 500 500 500 510 500 500 500 500 500 250 250 560 560 560 300 770 596 581 646 739 566 533 703 761 341 340 623 546 874 739 730 552 730 574 471 634 734 622 878 576 564 601 320 340 320 560 500 360 444 466 338 474 346 261 382 475 278 259 448 246 729 501 406 448 465 341 262 284 496 426 657 420 366 406 320 260 320 560 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 250 500 500 250 250 250 250 250 825 250 250 250 250 250 250 CDB wrote, in <guhb8h$v81$1@news.motzarella.org> on Thu, 14 May 2009 10:53:08 -0400: > >> [channelling WSG, who has not lost his knack in Elysium] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > code. I have copied the first part of it below; can anybody tell me > what I'm doing wrong? [snip] It works fine here. I use Foxit rather than Acrobat to read pdf's. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > CDB wrote: >>>> [channelling WSG, who has not lost his knack in Elysium] >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > It works fine here. I use Foxit rather than Acrobat to read pdf's. Works fine with Adobe Reader 8 (Acrobat), called up by Firefox. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> CDB wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Works fine with Adobe Reader 8 (Acrobat), called up by Firefox. Ditto. The text CDB quoted is the content of the pdf file. (I saved it to disk and peered at it with a text editor to be sure.) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> [channelling WSG, who has not lost his knack in Elysium] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > The text CDB quoted is the content of the pdf file. (I saved it to > disk and peered at it with a text editor to be sure.) Thank you for those clues. I will see what I can find out about my Adobe TReader. >>>>>>> [channelling WSG, who has not lost his knack in Elysium] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thank you for those clues. I will see what I can find out about my > Adobe TReader. Strangely, Firefox first told me that the url didn't exist, but then opened it anyway (using Adobe 9.0) John. >> Anyway, this morning brought a new verse: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And here I was thinking it couldn't get any better. "Western > hemisphere" is positively Donnean. If he's a pitcher, that should be "Southern hemisphere." ;) --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >>>> Most Englishmen of my acquaintance >>>> are Assyriologists. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > You do realise that it's a patter-song, as well as a poem? A patter-song's a poem, and (professional or amateur) the poet ought to shape it in paeonical tetrameter as James did; all I meant was (and I didn't mean it critically) that hemistichs should scan if you arrange it hemistichically. Peter Groves >> The lines should each be sixteen syllables long, but the word >> wrap spoiled that in some cases, so I just broke all the lines [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > is positively Donnean. The tinyurl for your pdf doesn't work for me, > though. > A patter-song's a poem, and (professional or amateur) > the poet ought to shape it in paeonical tetrameter > as James did; all I meant was (and I didn't mean it critically) > that hemistichs should scan if you arrange it hemistichically. The OED says "hemistichal" rather than "hemistichic", so presumably "hemistichally". Google Books prefers "hemistichal" to "hemistichic" 186 to 16, but "hemistichically" shows up twice, while "hemistichally" only once (though the same text appears in two places). SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This gubblick contains many 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the overall pluggandisp can be |glorked from context. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | (650)857-7572 | David Moser http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > A patter-song's a poem, and (professional or amateur) > > the poet ought to shape it in paeonical tetrameter [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 186 to 16, but "hemistichically" shows up twice, while "hemistichally" > only once (though the same text appears in two places). And even if not, you get some license for a charming rhyme like that. -- Jerry Friedman >> > A patter-song's a poem, and (professional or amateur) >> > the poet ought to shape it in paeonical tetrameter [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > And even if not, you get some license for a charming rhyme like that. Certainly charming, but my high school teachers would have called it a "near rhyme", since the parts after the last stressed syllable don't match exactly (-/tIkli/ vs. /kIkli/). "Amateur" and "tetrameter" actually seem farther apart for me, though they may well be perfect for Peter if he has /t/ rather than /tS/ in "amateur". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The great thing about Microsoft 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |dominating the world is that Palo Alto, CA 94304 |there's no shortage of support |opportunities. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Sam Alvis (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> > A patter-song's a poem, and (professional or amateur) > >> > the poet ought to shape it in paeonical tetrameter [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > actually seem farther apart for me, though they may well be perfect > for Peter if he has /t/ rather than /tS/ in "amateur". Yes, I should have said "near rhyme" or "assonance" (which may not give it sufficient credit). And I can't imagine there are many people for whom "amateur" and "tetrameter" are a perfect rhyme. For those who don't say it with / tS/, I'd expect it to end in /tjur/ or /tjR/ or /tur/. But there are more pronunciations in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in the philosophy of -- Jerry Friedman On May 15, 8:18 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote: > Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> writes: > > On May 14, 7:29 pm, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > actually seem farther apart for me, though they may well be perfect > for Peter if he has /t/ rather than /tS/ in "amateur". Yes, I should have said "near rhyme" or "assonance" (which may not give it sufficient credit). And I can't imagine there are many people for whom "amateur" and "tetrameter" are a perfect rhyme. For those who don't say it with / tS/, I'd expect it to end in /tjur/ or /tjR/ or /tur/. But there are more pronunciations in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in the philosophy of -- Jerry Friedman ***I didn't realise I was so old-fashioned. Unlike the tichally:kically rhyme, the first one is perfect for me -- and looking it up in Daniel Jones's revised <English Pronouncing Dictionary>, which records an RP from about the middle of the last century, I see that -t@ (if @ = schwa) is the first pronunciation he gives for "amateur", with more Frenchified possibilities as less common -- interestingly they didn't even occur to me. Peter G. > On May 15, 8:18 am, Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenb...@hpl.hp.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Jones's revised <English Pronouncing Dictionary>, which records an RP from > about the middle of the last century, I see that -t@ (if @ = schwa) It does. http://alt-usage-english.org/ipa/ascii_ipa_combined.shtml > is the > first pronunciation he gives for "amateur", with more Frenchified > possibilities as less common -- interestingly they didn't even occur to me. Sorry, I should have waited to post that till I was at home, where my NSOED is. Their first pronunciation is with /t@/, and the only other one has /tjU@/. So you're not behind the times; I'm on the wrong side of the pond to speculate. -- Jerry Friedman > And I can't imagine there are many people for whom "amateur" and > "tetrameter" are a perfect rhyme. For those who don't say it with / > tS/, I'd expect it to end in /tjur/ or /tjR/ or /tur/. But there are > more pronunciations in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in the > philosophy of After muttering to myself for several minutes, I'm not convinced I can hear any difference when I speak of a device for measuring current or of non-professional. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >hear any difference when I speak of a device for measuring current or of >non-professional. I measure current with an amm-eater. But then I am a chemist. In my life, an amateur and an armature differ only in the leading vowel. Need I state that I'm non-rhotic? No, thought not. SignaturePaul >> Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > In my life, an amateur and an armature differ only in the leading vowel. > Need I state that I'm non-rhotic? No, thought not. Oooh, I have a tch sound in armature, but a clear t in amateur. SignatureDavid >Paul Wolff wrote: >>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Oooh, I have a tch sound in armature, but a clear t in amateur. I was like that once, but then I became educated. More seriously, my touchstone is that it is only eighty generations of Englishmen since the birth of Christ, and the changes in the speech of these islands since then has to be apportioned among those eighty. If all I have changed in my lifetime has been a t to a tch in amateur, then I'm remarkably conservative. SignaturePaul >> Paul Wolff wrote: >>>> Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > all I have changed in my lifetime has been a t to a tch in amateur, > then I'm remarkably conservative. As long as you don't say "bedgeoom", which I heard on 't telly last week. SignatureMike. > >> And I can't imagine there are many people for whom "amateur" and > >> "tetrameter" are a perfect rhyme. For those who don't say it with / [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I measure current with an amm-eater. But then I am a chemist. I too say "amm-eater" /'&m,mitR/ and my students always see it spelled correctly, but nonetheless most of them scrupulously say "ampmeter". -- Jerry Friedman > Most Englishmen of my acquaintance > are Assyriologists. > They would not use a word like "arse" > in front of their proctologists. My sincere flattery of you and Gilbert was along different dipodic lines. I am the very arbiter of ev'rything linguistical, I shun abnormal allophones and utter the puristic /l/, I know the sense of "civilized" and tell you with officialty: It doesn't mean a thing, and so of course it means my specialty. Infallibly I tell apart a suburb from a neighborhood (Hm... neighborhood...?) And any sound a horn would make from those a pipe or tabor would. I analyze all phonemes, know a mono- from disyllable. In all the utmost poster here, I'm even the most killable. In short in matters phonic and graphemic and sophistical I am the very arbiter of ev'rything linguistical. -- Jerry Friedman can whistle some of the airs from that infernal nonsense /Pinafore/. >> Most Englishmen of my acquaintance >> are Assyriologists. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >In short in matters phonic and graphemic and sophistical >I am the very arbiter of ev'rything linguistical. Perfectly tripping dipods. Your song even makes an interesting acrostic: IIIIIAIIII SignatureJames > > Most Englishmen of my acquaintance > > are Assyriologists. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It doesn't mean a thing, and so of course it means my specialty. > Infallibly I tell apart a suburb from a neighborhood About a week ago I was translating an article on Sogdian history and archeology for Encyclopedia Iranica and in successive sentences rendered "faubourg" as 'neighborhood' and 'suburb'. > (Hm... neighborhood...?) > And any sound a horn would make from those a pipe or tabor would. WSG's unfathomable mistake was that he put the _strange_ rhyme first (sat a gee, lot o' news) then "hunted around" for the normal word (strategy, hypotenuse) to rhyme with it (the opposite of what you've done here). OTOH, compare Sondheim's masterpiece "We'll have Leontyne Price to sing a / Medley from Meistersinger." > I analyze all phonemes, know a mono- from disyllable. > In all the utmost poster here, I'm even the most killable. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Jerry Friedman can whistle some of the airs from that infernal > nonsense /Pinafore/. Nancy Dray made a version with quite a few stanzas, twenty-odd years ago. Revised text reposted for those who can't access http://tinyurl.com/pbywvc and thereby enjoy the typographically correct version with the more accurate transcription of the Persian name of Darius. Most Englishmen of my acquaintance are Assyriologists. They would not use a word like "arse" in front of their proctologists. Professors who have earned their chairs deciph'ring texts from Babylon Will never rest their "bums" on them, the word they'll use is "sit-upon". No self-respecting scholar of Akkadian or Elamite Would soil his mouth with anything as crude as "I don't give a shite". "A tupp'ny toss" sounds horrid to a British Sumerologist. He may get "tipsy" now and then but no one ever sees him "pissed". "The balls of a brass monkey", to an expert in cuneiform Mean nothing, he will merely comment that the weather isn't warm. On finding a clay tablet from the reign of Darayavahush, He'll say "My goodness!" rather than "Well, shag me with a khazi brush!" He knows the wedges making up the most obscure syllabic sign, But ask him "What's a wedgie?", he'll say "Your guess is as good as mine." He reads the language of Urartu better far than you or I But fails to grasp the meaning of the Beatles' "fish and finger pie". A pain in his "left bollock" would give any man some grounds for fear, But if he's versed in Ugaritic he'll say "western hemisphere". A Hittitologist who's asked why some constructions aren't yet parsed Might say "I can't be bothered" but he'll never say "I can't be arsed". SignatureJames Hogg ... > > I am the very arbiter of ev'rything linguistical, > > I shun abnormal allophones and utter the puristic /l/, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > archeology for Encyclopedia Iranica and in successive sentences > rendered "faubourg" as 'neighborhood' and 'suburb'. Righter than I knew. > > (Hm... neighborhood...?) > > And any sound a horn would make from those a pipe or tabor would. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (strategy, hypotenuse) to rhyme with it (the opposite of what you've > done here). Very sporting of you to respond that way. > OTOH, compare Sondheim's masterpiece "We'll have Leontyne > Price to sing a / Medley from Meistersinger." ... C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas rhotique. (Or maybe I mean "quoi que ce ne soit pas rhotique".) > Nancy Dray made a version with quite a few stanzas, twenty-odd years > ago. Can't find it on the web, but here's an excellent response to it, in the same meter. Search for "feeling ineffectual" (if you haven't seen it already). http://www.umich.edu/~archive/linguistics/linguist.list/volume.3/no.151-200 -- Your most obedient sirvente, Jerry Friedman > ... > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas rhotique. (Or maybe I mean "quoi > que ce ne soit pas rhotique".) It's in a song from *Merrily We Roll Along*, called "Jacqueline, Bobby, and Jack" -- obviously written during the Kennedy administration and put in a drawer on 11/22/63 until some halfway appropriate occasion -- sung as by Jackie (future O). *Merrily* proceeds back in time. He was Boston non-rhotic and she was Virginia non-rhotic, and their children grew up New York non-rhotic. John didn't have much of a NYC accent, but in her first tentative public appearances 5+ years ago (cohosting the Kennedy Center Honors with Walter Cronkite), Caroline had very much the upper-class NYC accent heard from such as Nelson Rockefeller and George Plimpton (it was a bit surprising to hear it from someone younger than me) -- but she must have worked hard to get away from it and sound more like an ordinary New Yorker by the time she announced that she should be senator because she was rich and famous. > > Nancy Dray made a version with quite a few stanzas, twenty-odd years > > ago. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.umich.edu/~archive/linguistics/linguist.list/volume.3/no.1... I thought the LINGUIST archives have each "issue" separately. > -- > Your most obedient sirvente, > Jerry Friedman |
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