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Donne: The Flea

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Marius Hancu - 16 May 2009 07:22 GMT
Hello:

Questions:

1. "And in this flea our two bloods mingled be"

I guess "be" in such older texts can only be seen as "are/is" and not as
the subjunctive, right?

2.
"Thou know'st that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead"

Does "said" mean "called" here?

3.
"Though parents grudge, and you, we're met,
And cloister'd in these living walls of jet."[9]

"Met," does it mean "welcomed" here?

4.
"then learn how false fears be"

Again, is "be" the indicative "are" or the subjunctive mood "could be?"

----
THE FLEA.
by John Donne

MARK but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deniest me is ;
It suck'd me first, and now sucks thee,
And in this flea our two bloods mingled be.
Thou know'st that this cannot be said
A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead ;
    Yet this enjoys before it woo,
    And pamper'd swells with one blood made of two ;
    And this, alas ! is more than we would do.

O stay, three lives in one flea spare,
Where we almost, yea, more than married are.
This flea is you and I, and this
Our marriage bed, and marriage temple is.
Though parents grudge, and you, we're met,
And cloister'd in these living walls of jet.[9]
    Though use make you apt to kill me,
    Let not to that self-murder added be,
    And sacrilege, three sins in killing three.

Cruel and sudden, hast thou since
Purpled thy nail in blood of innocence?
Wherein could this flea guilty be,
Except in that drop which it suck'd from thee?
Yet thou triumph'st, and say'st that thou
Find'st not thyself nor me the weaker now.
'Tis true ; then learn how false fears be ;
Just so much honour, when thou yield'st to me,
Will waste, as this flea's death took life from thee.

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/flea.php
------
[9] Norton: The black walls of the flea's thorax or abdomen.

Signature

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 16 May 2009 11:42 GMT
>Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I guess "be" in such older texts can only be seen as "are/is" and not as
>the subjunctive, right?

Right.

>2.
>"Thou know'st that this cannot be said
>A sin, nor shame, nor loss of maidenhead"
>
>Does "said" mean "called" here?

Yes or "said to be".

>3.
>"Though parents grudge, and you, we're met,
>And cloister'd in these living walls of jet."[9]
>
>"Met," does it mean "welcomed" here?

I don't think so - just "together".

>4.
>"then learn how false fears be"
>
>Again, is "be" the indicative "are" or the subjunctive mood "could be?"

Indicative "are".

OED gives examples of:

   dial. and arch. retention of been, bin. beth for be, and of be for
   are.

The most recent is:

   1879 ESCOTT England I. 242 No alarming sound for the powers that be.

The phrase "the powers that be" is still used today as a standard
phrase:

   "the powers that be" and variants [after Romans 13:1]: the
   authorities; the people exercising political or social control.

   1526 Bible (Tyndale) Rom. xiii. 1 The powers that be are ordeyned
   off God.

   1611 Bible (A.V.) Rom. xiii. 1 The powers that be, are ordeined of
   God.

>----
>THE FLEA.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>------
>[9] Norton: The black walls of the flea's thorax or abdomen.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 16 May 2009 12:51 GMT
On May 16, 6:42 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net>
wrote:

> >1. "And in this flea our two bloods mingled be"
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I don't think so - just "together".

Good point.

> >4.
> >"then learn how false fears be"
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The phrase "the powers that be" is still used today as a standard
> phrase:

Right.

Thank you.
Marius Hancu
Jeffrey Turner - 16 May 2009 14:33 GMT
>> Hello:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>
> Right.

Cf. Shakespeare's "Lord, what fools these mortals be!" from "A Midsummer
Night's Dream" (Puck).

--Jeff

Signature

The comfort of the wealthy has always
depended upon an abundant supply of
the poor. --Voltaire

John O'Flaherty - 16 May 2009 18:52 GMT
>Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
>------
>[9] Norton: The black walls of the flea's thorax or abdomen.

So, since the same flea could bite both of us, no sense being shy, we
may as well get it on, right? Looks like John Donne was a bit of a Don
Juan.
Signature

John
(done)

Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 16 May 2009 20:22 GMT
> Looks like John Donne was a bit of a Don Juan.

Possibly:

From the chronology (by Donald Dickson, I think) to the Norton
critical edition:
--------
1601: Secretly marries Lady Egerton's niece, seventeen-year-old Anne
More, daughter of Sir George More, thereby [temporarily] ruining his
public ambitions.

1609: Is reconciled with his father-in-law who finally pays his
daughter's dowry, thus relieving the couple from some of their
financial hardships.
--------
However, I haven't seen reports re his behavior after the marriage.

Marius Hancu
tinwhistler - 16 May 2009 22:22 GMT
> >Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> John
> (done)

The earthiness of these seductive utterings might be contrasted with
the extreme abstraction in his Negative Love verse recently brought to
us by Marius. I do not read your post as profiling Donne in the Don
Juan mold or mode predominantly, just as a human subject to base
temptations at times. What a greatness in him to allow us a glimpse of
that side.
--
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
 
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