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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Grocer's apotrophe -- a borderline case.
Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- Cauli's 60p ea. In spite of my vow never to take Lynn Truss seriously, this one started me musing about something that I consider a trivial matter. On the one hand, "caulis" is short for "cauliflowers", and therefore we need an apostrophe to indicate a contraction; so the correct form is "cauli's". Nobody, not even greengrocers in Leeds Market, can always be wrong. On the other hand, "cauli" is a universally contracted word, similar in status to "phone". So no apostrophe is needed. NB My Spell Check (IE) has never heard of "cauli" or "caulis", and suggested a range of alternatives from "Coulee's", via "Quails", to "collies". It was adamant that "cauliflowers" was wrong, wanting to change it into either "cauliflower" or "cauliflower's". Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Richard Chambers Leeds UK. <clears throat and smiles> I think you need a couple of apostrophes to indicate missing letters, one in the subject line: "Grocer's apo'trophe", and one in: "Lynn' Truss". My spellchecker (in Forté Agent) likes "cauliflowers".  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On 18 May, 15:35, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Mon, 18 May 2009 15:01:47 +0100, "Richard Chambers" > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > one in the subject line: "Grocer's apo'trophe", and one in: "Lynn' > Truss". I fear I may be missing a rather clever joke here, but... are you assuming that "Lynn" is short for something (e.g. Lynette)? She could be a Marilynne, in which case it should be 'Lynn. More likely she's just Lynne. As for "apo'trophe" I don't get it. Couldn't be a glottal stop there. Life is butter, melon, cauliflower. Mike M >On 18 May, 15:35, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >be a Marilynne, in which case it should be 'Lynn. More likely she's >just Lynne. She is Lynne. You wrote Lynn. In the subject line you wrote: "Grocer's apotrophe -- a borderline case." with an "s" missing from apostrophe. I was playfully replacing the missing letters with apostrophes That's all. "missi9ng" instead of "missing". >As for "apo'trophe" I don't get it. Couldn't be a glottal stop there. > >Life is butter, melon, cauliflower. > >Mike M SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >"missi9ng" instead of "missing". That should have been edited out along with the rest of a comment that the spellchecker had not flagged my typo of "missi9ng". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote: Richard Chambers wrote -----[Richard Chambers] > >Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >change > >it into either "cauliflower" or "cauliflower's". . >-----[Peter Duncanson] > <clears throat and smiles> > > I think you need a couple of apostrophes to indicate missing letters, > one in the subject line: "Grocer's apo'trophe", and one in: "Lynn' > Truss". ------[Mike Mooney] I fear I may be missing a rather clever joke here, but... are you assuming that "Lynn" is short for something (e.g. Lynette)? She could be a Marilynne, in which case it should be 'Lynn. More likely she's just Lynne. As for "apo'trophe" I don't get it. Couldn't be a glottal stop there. Life is butter, melon, cauliflower. -------[End of quote from Mike Mooney] --------------------------------------------------------- Peter was ribbing me for my typo in "apotrophe", without the "s". As I have discovered to my embarassmant, IE Spell Check does not verify the spellings in the title. Hence the posting went out exactly as I had mis-typed it. No glottal stop is involved. Another spelling mistake with my "Lynn". In general, the female version of this name is Lynne, with an "e". As the subject was apostrophes, and as I had missed out the "e", Peter was suggesting that I should have written the name as Lynn'. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >>Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >My spellchecker (in Forté Agent) likes "cauliflowers". It was probably taught to eat all its greens at an early stage of development. Like most of us. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall wrote, in <ifi3155rbmvoc8gn9bocu17viuee4eh1jt@4ax.com> on Mon, 18 May 2009 21:51:03 +0100: > >>Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- > >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > It was probably taught to eat all its greens at an early stage of > development. Like most of us. It's the fact that the bit that one eats isn't green that makes it edible. Most of the brassica family aren't. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Robin Bignall wrote, in <ifi3155rbmvoc8gn9bocu17viuee4eh1jt@4ax.com> > on Mon, 18 May 2009 21:51:03 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >It's the fact that the bit that one eats isn't green that makes it >edible. Most of the brassica family aren't. But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. SignatureJohn >>Robin Bignall wrote, in <ifi3155rbmvoc8gn9bocu17viuee4eh1jt@4ax.com> >> on Mon, 18 May 2009 21:51:03 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. I'm about to enjoy some rocket salad myself. SignatureJames John O'Flaherty wrote, in <9hk51552uq5vla52k0ui19db9ap8qjvnoc@4ax.com> on Tue, 19 May 2009 10:42:53 -0500: > >Robin Bignall wrote, in <ifi3155rbmvoc8gn9bocu17viuee4eh1jt@4ax.com> > > on Mon, 18 May 2009 21:51:03 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels > sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. Not by me, except for sprouts. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels > sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. Only under certain definitions of "edible". SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >> sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. > >Only under certain definitions of "edible". I've had all but one of those at one time or another in my life, and all were quite presentable....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've had all but one of those at one time or another in my life, and all were > quite presentable....r Hmm... I like brussels, I can eat broccoli and bok choy, and, if it is pickled or raw, I can just about eat cabbage. However, I can semolina and a whole host of nasty things if I must, but I don't consider them "edible" for most humans. I'm not sure what mustard greens are. SignatureRob Bannister > Hmm... I like brussels, I can eat broccoli and bok choy, and, if it is > pickled or raw, I can just about eat cabbage. However, I can semolina and > a whole host of nasty things if I must, but I don't consider them "edible" > for most humans. My mother had a story about her schooldays in the 1920s. When semolina was served as part of her school dinner, all the other children groaned and said "Yuk!", "Ugh", and a variety of other noises to indicate their disgust. But, truth be told, she quite liked semolina, it tasted very nice to her. Nevertheless, she joined in the chorus of disgust, just to be a full member of the group. Indeed, her "Ugh!" and "Yuk!" was amongst the loudest, maintaining her street cred. By this means, she managed eventually to convince herself that she hated semolina. My mother reached the age of 45 years before eventually trying semolina once more, and re-discovered that she did indeed like it. Semolina is excellent for anybody who is prepared to put his schoolday prejudices behind him, and who is able to forget the effects of group pressure applied early in life. Baked semolina, sprinkled with nutmeg and served with slightly tart stewed apple is a particular delicacy. This dish is equally good, whether served hot or cold. I would like to encourage you to try it again with an open mind, comparing it with stewed apple and plain custard. My bet is that you will actually like the semolina version better than the custard version. In my opinion, the widespread dislike of semolina is founded on social pressures experienced early in life, and is not based on reality. It is a living example of the famous "group pressure" experiment conducted by the psychologist Solomon Asch. [Reference: "Social Psychology", sixth edition, by David G Myers. Chapter 6, pp 214-216.] Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> Hmm... I like brussels, I can eat broccoli and bok choy, and, if it is >> pickled or raw, I can just about eat cabbage. However, I can semolina and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > psychologist Solomon Asch. [Reference: "Social Psychology", sixth edition, > by David G Myers. Chapter 6, pp 214-216.] A more convenient reference to the Asch experiment:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> Hmm... I like brussels, I can eat broccoli and bok choy, and, if it is >> pickled or raw, I can just about eat cabbage. However, I can semolina and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > psychologist Solomon Asch. [Reference: "Social Psychology", sixth edition, > by David G Myers. Chapter 6, pp 214-216.] There's a bit more to it than social pressure. Back in the 40s and early 50s, school dinners(1) were truly awful. It wasn't just the cooks(2), but the quality of food available - I'm pretty sure that we were given all that stuff that the government had been storing in mine shafts for who knows how long. It certainly wasn't just semolina, sago and tapioca that I learned to dislike at school - I couldn't eat potatoes until I was nearly twenty because for me spuds always contained nasty, hard, black bits. (1) I am talking about my early days in England. (2) In the late 50s, my mother became an assistant school cook and discovered wide-spread stealing of the good bits by the cooking staff in a number of schools. By the time I became a teacher myself in 1964, English school dinners had improved immensely. One of my early memories (c. 1947) is of being smacked by a teacher for saying I liked the rabbit: "It's pork", she said, "I don't want to hear anymore nonsense about rabbits." Quite apart from the fact that a rabbit's collar bone is distinctive, I really liked rabbit, so I was very hurt. SignatureRob Bannister [...] > There's a bit more to it than social pressure. Back in the 40s and early > 50s, school dinners(1) were truly awful. It wasn't just the cooks(2), [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > was nearly twenty because for me spuds always contained nasty, hard, > black bits. That was coal. You should have taken it home to help the family budget. [...] SignatureLes (BrE) > Semolina is excellent for anybody who is prepared to put his schoolday > prejudices behind him, and who is able to forget the effects of group [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > custard. My bet is that you will actually like the semolina version better > than the custard version. I've tried. I also tried a fabulous rice pudding at a friend's wedding - it was studded with dried fruit and pistachios, baked in mildly spiced milk. It looked lovely, it smelt lovely, and I took a bowlful thinking "I'm not at school, this looks lovely, I shall enjoy it." I didn't. It's not the taste, I realised, it's the texture. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Semolina is excellent for anybody who is prepared to put his schoolday >> prejudices behind him, and who is able to forget the effects of group [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I didn't. It's not the taste, I realised, it's the texture. One of the few advantages of growing up on a council estate was that the school was in its centre and everybody could walk home for lunch (which we'd call "dinner"), even though for some the walk took 30 minutes. There were, therefore, no facilities for school lunches (with one exception) and any food prejudices I have were picked up at home. Back in the late 1940s and early 1950s most women didn't work, despite the contribution they made to the war effort, so most kids had someone at home in the middle of the day. The exceptions to the "no lunches" rule were for kids who had had their fathers killed or severely incapacitated during the war and they got free lunches. There were only a couple of dozen in a school of approximately 600 boys. I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I don't think I've ever tried sago. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I >don't think I've ever tried sago. Start a pudding race. SignatureJames >Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote > >>I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I >>don't think I've ever tried sago. > >Start a pudding race. Isn't that the chieftain's job? SignaturePaul >>I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I >>don't think I've ever tried sago. > >Start a pudding race. Don't start until we sago. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>> Semolina is excellent for anybody who is prepared to put his schoolday >>> prejudices behind him, and who is able to forget the effects of group [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I >don't think I've ever tried sago. Rice, tapioca and sago (which is much the same as tapioca in its seed pearl form) are fine, but I've never really liked semolina. It's the texture, too gritty. SignaturePeter I'm an alien email: home at peteward dot gotadsl dot co dot uk I usually just search the web until I find a page that agrees with me. - Opus the Penguin >>I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I >>don't think I've ever tried sago. > >Rice, tapioca and sago (which is much the same as tapioca in its seed >pearl form) are fine, but I've never really liked semolina. It's the >texture, too gritty. I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been macaroni. >I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been macaroni. This causes a bit of cognitive dissonance for those of us whose default meaning of "pud" is slang for the pudendum. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been >> macaroni. > > This causes a bit of cognitive dissonance for those of us whose > default meaning of "pud" is slang for the pudendum. Male pudendum, specifically? I've always assumed that was short (sorry) for "pudding", in its alternative meaning of "sausage". Voilà du boudin. >>> I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been >>> macaroni. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(sorry) for "pudding", in its alternative meaning of "sausage". Voilà >du boudin. Pudenda means the last helping of trifle. SignatureJames Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett Quoth james <james@marage.demon.co.uk>, and I quote: >>>> I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been >>>> macaroni. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Pudenda means the last helping of trifle. That's nothing to be ashamed of. SignatureJames >> I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been >> macaroni. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -GAWollman Prolly should be "pood"? I'm a little disoriented by that useage of "cognitive dissonance"; it has face value, but I don't feel a strong drive to reconcile my understandings of pudding and crotch. They coexist comfortably. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance Of course my apprehension is tainted by long, fun years studying psychology as an almost-science. SignatureFrank ess >>>I rather liked my mother's milk puddings with rice or semolina. I >>>don't think I've ever tried sago. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I'm with you on that, but my favourite milk pud has always been macaroni. I always associate that with cheese, I'd forgotten about macaroni milk pudding. SignaturePeter I'm an alien email: home at peteward dot gotadsl dot co dot uk There's no need to think when you can google. - Don K > There were, therefore, no facilities for school lunches > (with one exception This must have been unusual. For a while (c. 1945), I went to a 2-teacher school in Whittlesford (just outside Cambridge). They had no facilities, but school lunches were brought in from somewhere else. They were horrible, but there were there. SignatureRob Bannister >> There were, therefore, no facilities for school lunches >> (with one exception [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >facilities, but school lunches were brought in from somewhere else. They >were horrible, but there were there. I think that's how they did it at my school. By "no facilities" I meant no kitchen. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> There were, therefore, no facilities for school lunches >>> (with one exception [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I think that's how they did it at my school. By "no facilities" I >meant no kitchen. Such arrangements were common. The canteen at the grammar school I attended supplied precooked meals to a number of smaller schools in the area, including the one where my father was headmaster. On the premises, there were three sittings, two for our school and one for the infants and junior schools just down the road. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>I think that's how they did it at my school. By "no facilities" I >>meant no kitchen. > >Such arrangements were common. Still are -- indeed that also is the way most "fast casual" restaurants and many convenience-food outlets[1] operate. In most of those cases, and in many school systems, the food is wholly or partially prepared in an off-site commissary and delivered daily to each location. This allows the operators to ensure a better-standardized product, and reduces the real-estate cost of operating a full kitchen at each location. -GAWollman [1] Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts, some sandwich shops, and so on. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>I think that's how they did it at my school. By "no facilities" I >>>meant no kitchen. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >better-standardized product, and reduces the real-estate cost of >operating a full kitchen at each location. But those 'fast-casual' restaurants still have a kitchen of some kind. The schools - my son's is one - have no kitchen. The food is delivered hot, kept warm in a serving station trolley thing and served up. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >> sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. > >Only under certain definitions of "edible". I've eaten all[1] of them at some point, some as recently as yesterday, and I'm still alive (or so it seems). -GAWollman [1] Except probably Brussels sprouts, but can't be sure about that. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >>> sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've eaten all[1] of them at some point, some as recently as > yesterday, and I'm still alive (or so it seems). I think that "edible" is more than simply "not lethal". I'm not sure it necessarily goes as far as "provides nutrition when eaten", but it's somewhere in that direction. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you |don't get good theories. You get kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |theology instead. (650)857-7572 | --John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >>>> sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >it necessarily goes as far as "provides nutrition when eaten", but >it's somewhere in that direction. My sons, too, would question the "edible" description. They're of the baked-beans-with-everything generation. (Back in the late 1970s we hired a babysitter for the baby and took said son, then in mid-teens, to a very nice restaurant in Paris, where he raised eyebrows by asking for ketchup. But I digress.) Apart from nutrition, those greens provide roughage, which I'm told is pretty essential for those of you with colons. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >>> sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. >> Only under certain definitions of "edible". > > I've eaten all[1] of them at some point, some as recently as yesterday, > and I'm still alive (or so it seems). But you're grown up. A teenager would simply die. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >>>> But broccoli, kale, cabbage, bok choy, mustard greens and brussels >>>> sprouts are brassica, green, and edible. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >But you're grown up. A teenager would simply die. True that...I was well into my twenties before I discovered that I actually *liked* cauliflower and broccoli, and nearly out of them before I learned the same of cabbage....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > actually *liked* cauliflower and broccoli, and nearly out of them > before I learned the same of cabbage....r Note that that doesn't mean that you actually would have liked them when you were younger. Broccoli was my only real food aversion when I was growing up. I couldn't stand it and it ruined any dish it was in for me. You didn't have to tell me it was there and there didn't have to be much of it; it would be obvious to me on the first bite. Somewhere in my late twenties I found that I could tolerate it, and some time in my thirties I discovered that it wasn't bad at all. Still not my favorite, but I might well even take it voluntarily, and I can appreciate the flavor. The theory I've heard is that for many of these wide-spread aversions, what's going on is that there's some nasty-tasting component that people who like the food simply can't taste, and that many people who can taste it gradually lose the ability as they get older. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When all else fails, give the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |customer what they ask for. This Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is strong medicine and rarely needs |to be repeated. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum wrote, in <zld6bjt7.fsf@hpl.hp.com> on Thu, 21 May 2009 07:40:52 -0700: > > Robert Bannister filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > people who like the food simply can't taste, and that many people who > can taste it gradually lose the ability as they get older. My father was into his seventies before he discovered that he liked cucumber after all. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >My father was into his seventies before he discovered that he liked >cucumber after all. I remember when cucumbers used to be infamous for giving people indigestion. They certainly did with me, and I just couldn't eat them. But then I believe that they 'bred it out of them', and I now find that I have no problems. Mind you, there's essentially no nutritional value in cucumbers. They're nearly 100% water. SignatureIan >>My father was into his seventies before he discovered that he liked >>cucumber after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > find that I have no problems. Mind you, there's essentially no > nutritional value in cucumbers. They're nearly 100% water. According to a 2000 article in _HortTechnology_ http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/art090.pdf "burpless cucumbers" are simply a different variety (oriental trellis cucumbers). The conclusion of the experiment described in the paper was ... burpiness experienced by people eating cucumbers is slightly affected by the cultivar type, and by the susceptivility of the person. Oriental trellis cucumbers such as 'Tasty Bright' had a small advantage over normal-bitter and biterfree american [sic] cultivars for burpiness, but only for people suceptible to burping. The term "burpless" mainly indicates cultivars of oriental trellis type marketed in the U.S. Todd C. Wehner, "What Are Burpless Cucumbers?", _HortTechnology_, 4-6/2000 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The Society for the Preservation of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Tithesis commends your ebriated and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |scrutable use of delible and |defatigable, which are gainly, sipid kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and couth. We are gruntled and (650)857-7572 |consolate that you have the ertia and |eptitude to choose such putably http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |pensible tithesis, which we parage. >>My father was into his seventies before he discovered that he liked >>cucumber after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I have no problems. Mind you, there's essentially no nutritional value >in cucumbers. They're nearly 100% water. When I think of the hordes without no. Who've been slain by the dreaded cuco. It is quite a mistake Of such food to partake It results in a permanent slo. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>My father was into his seventies before he discovered that he liked >>cucumber after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I have no problems. Mind you, there's essentially no nutritional value >in cucumbers. They're nearly 100% water. My father used to grow cucumbers in a cold frame. They were watered by wrapping one of an old pair of fabric stockings round the roots when they were planted, and putting the other end of the stocking into a jam jar of water. It was my job, even before I started school, to fill those jam jars morning, noon and evening. During the war I remember cucumbers sold for a shilling (five new pence) apiece, which seemed quite a lot for something that was fairly horrible to eat. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> My father was into his seventies before he discovered that he liked >> cucumber after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have no problems. Mind you, there's essentially no nutritional value > in cucumbers. They're nearly 100% water. I still like cucumber, but they and melons do give me indigestion these days, whereas they didn't when I was younger. SignatureRob Bannister Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >The theory I've heard is that for many of these wide-spread aversions, >what's going on is that there's some nasty-tasting component that >people who like the food simply can't taste, and that many people who >can taste it gradually lose the ability as they get older. This is the argument offered by haters of cilantro...they say it "tastes like soap", and claim that those of us who like it are unable to taste it properly.... I put it to anyone who cares to do the math...if there are two substances, and one person thinks they taste the same while a second person thinks they taste different, which person has the gustatory defect?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> The theory I've heard is that for many of these wide-spread aversions, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > soap", and claim that those of us who like it are unable to taste it > properly.... My sister claims she can't breathe in a room where fresh coriander is served. She subsisted in Thailand on danish pastries. SignatureRob Bannister > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > person thinks they taste different, which person has the gustatory > defect?...r The inability to taste a noxious substance is clearly an advantage rather than a defect (unless the reason the substance is noxious is to warn that it is bad to eat)--and unless that inability causes you to force those without the advantage to be exposed to it. Much as being deaf is an advantage if you live or work in a very noisy environment, but if being deaf causes you to decide that vacuuming your house or running your bandsaw at three in the morning, your less advantaged neighbors might complain. My hearing is sensitive to some electric components--some of the lights in my house are annoyingly loud when they are dimmed. I would say that my ability to hear them is more of a defect than my family's inability to do so. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Code should be designed to make it 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |easy to get it right, not to work Palo Alto, CA 94304 |if you get it right. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> This is the argument offered by haters of cilantro...they say it >> "tastes like soap", and claim that those of us who like it are [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >they are dimmed. I would say that my ability to hear them is more of >a defect than my family's inability to do so. Point missed, I think...I can identify the taste of soap, and the taste of cilantro, and can distinguish the two...the person who claims I'm defective can only identify one "soap-or-cilantro" flavor...that's a lesser degree of discrimination.... The person who can't tell a teddy bear from a live wolverine is in no sense superior to the person who can....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > claims I'm defective can only identify one "soap-or-cilantro" > flavor...that's a lesser degree of discrimination.... My guess is that when people say that cilantro tastes like soap, what they mean is that there's some substance in both that they can taste and others can't. They're not saying that cilantro, to them, tastes like soap does to *you* (or me). Presumably they can identify a "soap-or-cilantro" flavor which, if it was isolated, you simply wouldn't be able to taste. They can discriminate it; you can't. As a side effect, you can discriminate two substances that both contain it (and other things), and they can't, because for them that's the taste that predominates. I've participated in a similar experiment with a Chinese herbal medicine. The bottle was passed around the room and people took a sniff. For about half of us, there was no particular odor; the other half visibly cringed and a couple seemed to be controlling their gag reflex. > The person who can't tell a teddy bear from a live wolverine is in > no sense superior to the person who can....r On the other hand, the person who can't distinguish between bitter almonds and straight cyanide has an advantage over those who can because they can't taste the cyanide in either. In this case, a cursory search indicates that the culprit may be a substance called "linalool", which is added to soaps as a scent agent and which is the primary component of cilatro oils. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Theories are not matters of fact, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |they are derived from observing Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fact. If you don't have data, you |don't get good theories. You get kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |theology instead. (650)857-7572 | --John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >In this case, a cursory search indicates that the culprit may be a >substance called "linalool", which is added to soaps as a scent agent >and which is the primary component of cilatro oils. Ah, so it's soap that tastes like cilantro and not the other way round!... By similar reasoning, I can say that peppermint, eucalyptus, almond oil and tea-tree oil all taste like soap, because I have a bottle each of those Dr Bronner's varieties in my shower....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ah, so it's soap that tastes like cilantro and not the other way > round!... Yes. But there's a possibility that soap's tasting like cilantro makes cilantro taste bad because of the experience of tasting soap, which doesn't necessarily depend on that particular flavor. Lots of people have aversions to cherry syrrups because they "taste like medicine", the cherry having been added to medicines to mask other, more noxious flavors. I have a hard time with some "tutti frutti" flavors because they taste like the toothpaste my dentist when cleaning my teeth used when I was a child. And when we used rose water for a dessert at a dinner party, several people couldn't get past the fact that it "tasted like hand lotion". So it may, indeed, be less "it tastes like soap" than "soap tastes like that". > By similar reasoning, I can say that peppermint, eucalyptus, almond > oil and tea-tree oil all taste like soap, because I have a bottle > each of those Dr Bronner's varieties in my shower....r Sure, if those are the primary components in the *taste* of the soap and those soaps are your main referents for what soap tastes like. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |As the judge remarked the day that 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | he acquitted my Aunt Hortense, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |To be smut |It must be ut- kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |Terly without redeeming social (650)857-7572 | importance. | Tom Lehrer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > taste > different, which person has the gustatory defect?...r x^2 - 5x + 6 = 0 x = 2 or x = 3 3 Integral(3x^2) = 27 - 8 = 19 2 Ah, yes, I see what you mean! QED. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> But you're grown up. A teenager would simply die. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > people who like the food simply can't taste, and that many people who > can taste it gradually lose the ability as they get older. Possible, but it's also possible to change one's tastes in other ways. I couldn't stand even the smell of garlic when I was younger, but I liked pepper and took quite naturally to curry. I was rather surprised, when after a particularly good curry, someone told me I stank of garlic, but thereafter I "acquired" a taste for it in other foods. Other gastronomic acquisitions occurred when I was presented with a hateful food cooked properly for the first time. SignatureRob Bannister > Robert Bannister filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > *liked* cauliflower and broccoli, and nearly out of them before I learned the > same of cabbage....r OldBloke has had to put aside his apathy towards broccoli and cauliflower because YoungBloke has discovered that he likes "trees" and "clouds". I'm happy because I do too, and now I get to eat them! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > NB My Spell Check (IE) has never heard of "cauli" or "caulis", Probably because it's a "universally" contracted word where you are, but not everywhere. In particular, I probably wouldn't have figured out what it meant, and it would strike me as strange even if the context made it clear. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is a popular delusion that the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |government wastes vast amounts of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |money through inefficiency and sloth. |Enormous effort and elaborate kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |planning are required to waste this (650)857-7572 |much money | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] >> NB My Spell Check (IE) has never heard of "cauli" or "caulis", > > Probably because it's a "universally" contracted word where you are, > but not everywhere. In particular, I probably wouldn't have figured > out what it meant, and it would strike me as strange even if the > context made it clear. (It's "GREENgrocer's apostrophe", dash it!) OK, so "cauli" isn't universal. How about.. toms cues runners clems straws rahss (not so spelt, but so pron in Br) sats? I can't think of any more, but they must be out there. Passing quickly to the florist's, how about.. daffs cars mums steph? (Hi, TsuiDef!) SignatureMike. Mike Lyle filted: >[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >toms >cues "Cukes" round here, if it's what I think it is.... >runners We often omit the generic portion when referring to types of beans: limas, kidneys, pintos, great northern, favas, garbanzos, adzukis.... I'm not sure whether we'd spell it "navies" or "navys".... >clems >straws >rahss (not so spelt, but so pron in Br) >sats? ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Mike Lyle filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > "Cukes" round here, if it's what I think it is.... Cukes and zukes is what I write on my shopping list. Haven't seen either at the supermarkets, though. >> Mike Lyle filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Cukes and zukes is what I write on my shopping list. Haven't seen > either at the supermarkets, though. I can guess "zukes" in context here, but I probably wouldn't out of context. I think I've seen "cukes" on signs, at least in farmers' markets. One other that you don't see on on signs is "taters" (other than in "tater tots"). I don't know anybody who actually calls them that, though. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You may hate gravity, but gravity 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |doesn't care. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Clayton Christensen kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >I can guess "zukes" in context here, but I probably wouldn't out of >context. I think I've seen "cukes" on signs, at least in farmers' >markets. One other that you don't see on on signs is "taters" (other >than in "tater tots"). I don't know anybody who actually calls them >that, though. My mother always got a chuckle out of the semi-permanent sign outside the farmers' market on the rez: "BEEF STAKE TOMATOES"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > My mother always got a chuckle out of the semi-permanent sign outside the > farmers' market on the rez: "BEEF STAKE TOMATOES"....r I know a girl who lives on the hill She won't do it but her sister will She likes to boogie She do the tube stake boogie Boogie woogie baby Boogie woogie all night long Emperor Wang filted: >> My mother always got a chuckle out of the semi-permanent sign outside the >> farmers' market on the rez: "BEEF STAKE TOMATOES"....r [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Boogie woogie baby >Boogie woogie all night long ObShowingOffMyMusicalCredentials: Blow your top, blow your top, blow your top. ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Cukes and zukes is what I write on my shopping list. Haven't seen > either at the supermarkets, though. I believe my regular market refers to "zukes" as green squash. Zukes? Gad! --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire Jeffrey Turner filted: >> Cukes and zukes is what I write on my shopping list. Haven't seen >> either at the supermarkets, though. > >I believe my regular market refers to "zukes" as green squash. Zukes? >Gad! In Rightpondia I imagine they're "courgs"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > rahss (not so spelt, but so pron in Br) > sats? No, no, no, no, no, no, and no. The only one I can think of off-hand is "cukes". > I can't think of any more, but they must be out there. Passing quickly > to the florist's, how about.. > daffs > cars > mums > steph? (Hi, TsuiDef!) No, no, yes, and no. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Society in every state is a blessing, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |but government, even in its best Palo Alto, CA 94304 |state is but a necessary evil; in its |worst state, an intolerable one. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Thomas Paine (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I can't think of any more, but they must be out there. Passing quickly >> to the florist's, how about.. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, no, yes, and no. Daffs and mums for me, but no others. Spellchecker doesn't like it, tho'. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > Seen in Leeds Market on Saturday:- > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Richard Chambers Leeds UK. I don't mind apostrophes being used to pluralise some words that end in vowels. One example I saw yesterday was "spa's". Leaving out the apostrophe ("spas") can lead to ambiguity. Adrian Adrian Bailey skrev: > I don't mind apostrophes being used to pluralise some words that end in > vowels. One example I saw yesterday was "spa's". Leaving out the > apostrophe ("spas") can lead to ambiguity. My vocabulary is limited, which may be why I fail to see the potential ambiguity in your example. Would you recommend an apostrophe to resolve the ambiguity created by the plural forms of "ellipse" and "ellipsis"? SignatureJens Brix Christiansen > Adrian Bailey skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My vocabulary is limited, which may be why I fail to see the > potential ambiguity in your example. "Spas" can be read as /sp&z/, short for "spastic" and an impolite term for an uncoordinated person. I think it's more often spelled "spaz", though. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Feeling good about government is like 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |looking on the bright side of any Palo Alto, CA 94304 |catastrophe. When you quit looking |on the bright side, the catastrophe kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |is still there. (650)857-7572 | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Adrian Bailey skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for an uncoordinated person. I think it's more often spelled "spaz", > though. Ah, I hadn't guessed that. I think "spastic" as an insult has just about died out in the UK. SignatureDavid >>> Adrian Bailey skrev: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Ah, I hadn't guessed that. I think "spastic" as an insult has just >about died out in the UK. It's still alive and well in, of all countries, Denmark. This might amuse Jens, if no one else: There was a misprint in the caption to a photo in a Danish newspaper. The caption should have read "Et par spadserer på en snedækket mark uden for Guiyang", meaning "A couple out walking in a snow-covered field outside Guiyang" in China. Unfortunately, they dropped the -r on the verb, with the result that the caption could be read as "A couple of spastics in a snow-covered field outside Guiyang." SignatureJames James Hogg skrev: > This might amuse Jens, if no one else: I am suitably amused. > There was a misprint in the caption to a photo in a Danish > newspaper. The caption should have read "Et par spadserer på en [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > could be read as "A couple of spastics in a snow-covered field > outside Guiyang." It could, but that word is spelled "spassere", not "spadsere", so the reader would have to choose which spelling error to assume. I will admit that "spasser" (singular) is frequently misspelled "spadser", which could be pronounced the same way. SignatureJens Brix Christiansen >James Hogg skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >that "spasser" (singular) is frequently misspelled "spadser", which >could be pronounced the same way. It was reproduced from BT in Weekendavisen under the heading Handicaphumor. I still have it on my notice board. SignatureJames > Adrian Bailey skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My vocabulary is limited, which may be why I fail to see the potential > ambiguity in your example. By ambiguity I mean the "garden path" variety. Many people, reading a word like "caulis" or "spas", will misanalyse it (with a short vowel before the s) and be confused for a shorter or longer time. Also, in the case of "spas" I think some sellers prefer to avoid the associations that the apostrophe-less spelling creates. > Would you recommend an apostrophe to resolve the ambiguity created by the > plural forms of "ellipse" and "ellipsis"? No, and I can't think of a context in which there would be ambiguity. Adrian > Adrian Bailey skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My vocabulary is limited, which may be why I fail to see the potential > ambiguity in your example. By ambiguity I mean the "garden path" variety. Many people, reading a word like "caulis" or "spas", will misanalyse it (with a short vowel before the s) and be confused for a shorter or longer time. Also, in the case of "spas" I think some sellers prefer to avoid the associations that the apostrophe-less spelling creates. > Would you recommend an apostrophe to resolve the ambiguity created by the > plural forms of "ellipse" and "ellipsis"? No, and I can't think of a context in which there would be ambiguity. Adrian >> Adrian Bailey skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > case of "spas" I think some sellers prefer to avoid the associations > that the apostrophe-less spelling creates. What's a "spa" that you would buy at a farmers' market? --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >>> Adrian Bailey skrev: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > What's a "spa" that you would buy at a farmers' market? Nothing. A spa is something that you might buy from someone who sells spas. Adrian |
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