Hello:
Would "laity" be "those not in the know?"
Also, I wonder if this is the final separation/death that Donne is
talking about (I see it as possible, esp taking into account
"mourning"), or just a temporary journey, as some of the commentators
see it?
See:
"Though I must go"
and
"And makes me end where I begun."
(back into the clay/ground?)
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As virtuous men pass mildly away,
And whisper to their souls to go,
Whilst some of their sad friends do say,
"The breath goes now," and some say, "No,"
So let us melt, and make no noise,
No tear-floods, nor sigh-tempests move;
'Twere profanation of our joys
To tell the laity our love.
Moving of the earth brings harms and fears,
Men reckon what it did and meant;
But trepidation of the spheres,
Though greater far, is innocent.
Dull sublunary lovers' love
(Whose soul is sense) cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
Those things which elemented it.
But we, by a love so much refined
That our selves know not what it is,
Inter-assured of the mind,
Care less, eyes, lips, and hands to miss.
Our two souls therefore, which are one,
Though I must go, endure not yet
A breach, but an expansion.
Like gold to airy thinness beat.
If they be two, they are two so
As stiff twin compasses are two:
Thy soul, the fixed foot, makes no show
To move, but doth, if the other do;
And though it in the center sit,
Yet when the other far doth roam,
It leans, and hearkens after it,
And grows erect, as that comes home.
Such wilt thou be to me, who must,
Like the other foot, obliquely run;
Thy firmness makes my circle just,
And makes me end where I begun.
A Valediction Forbidding Mourning.
by John Donne, p. 71
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15468
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Signature
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
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John O'Flaherty - 18 May 2009 19:14 GMT
>Hello:
>
>Would "laity" be "those not in the know?"
It sounds like it.
>Also, I wonder if this is the final separation/death that Donne is
>talking about (I see it as possible, esp taking into account
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>"And makes me end where I begun."
>(back into the clay/ground?)
He speaks of return - "...doth roam...", "...as that comes home...".
"...makes my circle just..." = completes the circle.
"... end where I begun." = comes back to where the oblique journey
started. All in all, it sounds temporary to me. Mourning isn't always
over death.
The beginning of the poem speaks of passing away, or death, but that
death is compared to the connection of the two, which must be melted
by absence, not apparently to death of one of them.
>-----
>As virtuous men pass mildly away,
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15468
>-----
--
John
Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 18 May 2009 23:45 GMT
> >Also, I wonder if this is the final separation/death that Donne is
> >talking about (I see it as possible, esp taking into account
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> death is compared to the connection of the two, which must be melted
> by absence, not apparently to death of one of them
Yes, I agree, but things are never too far from the death with
Donne:-)
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Alan Jones - 19 May 2009 14:02 GMT
> Hello:
>
> Would "laity" be "those not in the know?"
I suppose Donne regards the sexual union of his wife and himself as a sacred
rite, in which both are priests. Outsiders are therefore the "laity". This
suggests that he was thinking of the old Latin Mass, where the laity could
not observe or hear the central action at the altar; but the poem was
written when Donne had turned away from his former RC faith and become an
eloquent defender of Anglicanism.
> Also, I wonder if this is the final separation/death that Donne is
> talking about (I see it as possible, esp taking into account
> "mourning"), or just a temporary journey, as some of the commentators
> see it?
You may be interested to read a passage from Isaak Walton's life of Donne
(see
http://walton.classicauthors.net/LifeOfDrDonneThe/LifeOfDrDonneThe4.html ),
concerning Donne's temporary separation in 1611 from his wife, then in late
pregnancy, as he travelled reluctantly in northern Europe. It seems clear
that the "Valediction" was about their parting on that occasion, though
written before the news reached him that their child had been stillborn. You
are certainly right to think that he sees this parting as an image of the
final separation through death (and a reunion in heaven).
Alan Jones
Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 19 May 2009 14:13 GMT
> > Would "laity" be "those not in the know?"
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> written when Donne had turned away from his former RC faith and become an
> eloquent defender of Anglicanism.
Very interesting point of view.
> > Also, I wonder if this is the final separation/death that Donne is
> > talking about (I see it as possible, esp taking into account
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> pregnancy, as he travelled reluctantly in northern Europe. It seems clear
> that the "Valediction" was about their parting on that occasion,
Norton critical edition mentions that modern biographers are
contesting Walton's take that this was written for that occasion/
trip.
> though
> written before the news reached him that their child had been stillborn. You
> are certainly right to think that he sees this parting as an image of the
> final separation through death (and a reunion in heaven).
Thank you.
Marius Hancu