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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Apostrophes and Possesives
We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry Israel) wrote: >We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' >forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? Assuming there will be more than one user, I would recommend the plural form "library users' forum" (without the typo "libary").  SignatureJames >On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry >Israel) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Assuming there will be more than one user, I would recommend the >plural form "library users' forum" (without the typo "libary"). You might also like to consider simply "Library User Forum". SignatureIan >>On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry >>Israel) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >You might also like to consider simply "Library User Forum". Yes, that's a good way to get round the apostrophe problem. SignatureJames >>>On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry >>>Israel) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Yes, that's a good way to get round the apostrophe problem. I cribbed it from 'User Manual'! SignatureIan >>>> On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry >>>> Israel) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > I cribbed it from 'User Manual'! It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female servant to join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. SignatureMike. >>>>> On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry >>>>> Israel) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female servant to >join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. Yebbut.... There's usually one user associated with one manual. It's a one-to-one, individual thing. Similarly, using a library is an individual thing. "Are you a library user?", but not ""Are you an Institute Woman?" OK, it's not ideal, but it's easier to tell someone to use "User" instead of "Users'" (although I would prefer the latter). SignatureIan >>>>>> On Tue, 19 May 09 11:18:33 +03, VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il (Larry >>>>>> Israel) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >it's not ideal, but it's easier to tell someone to use "User" instead of >"Users'" (although I would prefer the latter). From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECUS DECUS is an independent association of users of Hewlett-Packard and HP Partners. .... DECUS was the Digital Equipment Computer User Society, a users' group for Digital Equipment Corporation computers. Singular apostrophe-free "User" in the name. Plural with apostrophe "users'" in the description. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >On Tue, 19 May 2009 20:24:41 +0100, Ian Jackson >>In message <guuvh7$jol$1@news.eternal-september.org>, Mike Lyle [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Singular apostrophe-free "User" in the name. >Plural with apostrophe "users'" in the description. I would cut the Gordian knot and call the library users' forum the Book Club, and serve tea and buns. SignaturePaul > It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female servant to > join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. Mike, you are really Mervyn Griffith-Jones and I claim my five pounds. Regards Jonathan >> It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female servant >> to join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. > > Mike, you are really Mervyn Griffith-Jones and I claim my five pounds. Would m'learned friend accept a cheque? SignatureMike. >>> It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female servant >>> to join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. >> >> Mike, you are really Mervyn Griffith-Jones and I claim my five pounds. >> > Would m'learned friend accept a cheque? I'm just relieved that I had correctly spotted the allusion. Regards Jonathan >>>> It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female >>>> servant to join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I'm just relieved that I had correctly spotted the allusion. I'm reminded of an Old Actor story, since it might as well be told in an adapted from of a Young Barrister. I'll just give you the skeleton. Old Actor goes from shop to shop clutching a cheque. "Ai am Wensleydale Hopechest, currently appearing before packed houses in...at...and Ai perceive that the benks are, most inconveniently, shut: Ai wondered if you would be so kaind as to cash this small cheque..." In vain. Finally ends up at Chinese laundry ("No tickee..." --sorry, wrong story), where he meets with the accustomed rebuff. "Oh, well; could you at least /iron/ the bloody thing for me?" SignatureMike. >>>> You might also like to consider simply "Library User Forum". >>> Yes, that's a good way to get round the apostrophe problem. >> I cribbed it from 'User Manual'! > > It's horrible. I hope you wouldn't allow your wife or female servant to > join The Woman Institute or The Mother Union. She's a sailor, gone to the Mother Ship. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' >forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? Library users' forum. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' > forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? "forum lectorum" SignatureA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Maybe because some people are too annoyed by top-posting. Q: Why do I not get an answer to my question(s)? > We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' > forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? The middle one is right out. For most purposes "library users' forum" is preferred, but in some cases, especially in titles of organizations, publications, and so forth, the choice between the first and third forms becomes contentious. You can find defenders of such as The Veterans League or Doctors Hospital. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com 118 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term. Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't. >> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called >> "libary users' forum", "library user's forum", or "library users >> forum"? > > The middle one is right out. I don't think I'd say that. The usual test is to see what happens for nouns whose plurals don't end in "s", as there people's intuitions are clearer. Googling, I see 490,000 hits for "women's forum", but also 7,250 hits for "woman's forum". "Men's forum" has a respectable 2,930 hits (to 42,500 for "men's"). "Fireman's forum" and "firemen's forum" both have tiny numers, but the singular is actually the more common. Ditto "policeman's"/"policemen's". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Marge: You liked Rashomon. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Homer: That's not how *I* remember Palo Alto, CA 94304 | it. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' > forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? We may instead use the flexibility of English to avoid a potential problem, if we fear its correct solution will disturb some readers -- and call it the Forum for Library Users. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary > users' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > potential problem, if we fear its correct solution will disturb > some readers -- and call it the Forum for Library Users. What about "Library Users Their Forum", which is a common enough possessive construction among some sections of the populace at large. SignatureLes (BrE) >>> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >> users' [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >What about "Library Users Their Forum", which is a common enough >possessive construction among some sections of the populace at large. Anything of the suggestions, except "Library User's Forum" (unless the user needs to discuss things with himself). SignatureIan >> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >users' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >potential problem, if we fear its correct solution will disturb >some readers -- and call it the Forum for Library Users. Would that be the Mexican FLU, the Spanish FLU, the Asian FLU, or some other FLU? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary > users' > forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? The last. Adrian > We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary users' > forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? They've all been tried at one time or another. Cf "The Association of Pedants (formerly The Pedants' Association, previously The Pedants Association, originally The Pedant's Association)". I like the last best: "library users forum". Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "Nothing endures, nothing is precise and certain (except the mind of a pedant), perfection is the mere repudiation of that ineluctable marginal inexactitude which is the mysterious inmost quality of Being." [H. G. Wells - A Modern Utopia] JimboCat filted: >> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary use= >rs' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Pedants (formerly The Pedants' Association, previously The Pedants >Association, originally The Pedant's Association)". An affiliate of "Associated Pedants GmbH"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > They've all been tried at one time or another. Cf "The Association of > Pedants (formerly The Pedants' Association, previously The Pedants > Association, originally The Pedant's Association)". Well, *obviously* the founder had to change the name when the second person joined. SignatureI could show them the ansible, but it didn't make a very convincing Alien Artifact, being so incomprehensible as to fit in with hoax as well as with reality. (LeGuin 1969) > We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary > users' > forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? Use: "Forum for library users" >> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >> users' >> forum", "library user's forum", or "library users forum"? > >Use: "Forum for library users" Why? Why 'dumb it down'? "Library Users' Forum" is the perfectly normal and correct way to say it. SignatureIan >>> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >>> users' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Why? Why 'dumb it down'? "Library Users' Forum" is the perfectly normal >and correct way to say it. Because most of the world out there can't cope with apostrophes (or much else that requires thought). The Post Office changed "Registered Mail" to "Signed for", presumably because "registered" has two too many syllables. I won't continue: ranting by a Brit is purposeless until Viv gets back from Italy. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >On Thu, 21 May 2009 22:10:40 +0100, Ian Jackson >>Rambler III <RamblerIII@xyz.net> writes >>>"Larry Israel" <VSLARRY@weizmann.ac.il> wrote in message >>>> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >>>> users' [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I won't continue: ranting by a Brit is purposeless until Viv gets back >from Italy. After three weeks of Berlusconi, I'm confidently expecting him to reappear a staunch royalist. SignaturePaul >>>> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >>>> users' [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I won't continue: ranting by a Brit is purposeless until Viv gets back >from Italy. I don't think that "Signed For" is dumbing down. It's a concise, accurate description of what happens. "Registered" is open to a variety of interpretations, and may need an explanation. SignatureIan >>>>> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >>>>> users' [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >accurate description of what happens. "Registered" is open to a variety >of interpretations, and may need an explanation. In fact there used to be two services known as Recorded Delivery and Registered Mail. With Recorded Delivery the sender got a receipt when the item was handed over the post office counter and a signature was obtained when the item was delivered. Apart from that, the item was handled through normal postal transport and delivery channels. Registered Mail was used for high-value items. The item was subject to separate secure handling throughout its journey. There was no guarantee of delivery by a specified time unless an extra fee was paid. Recorded Delivery is now named "Recorded Signed For". The Registered service has been merged with the Special Delivery services. There are now Special Delivery Next Day and Special Delivery 9.00am services, and the far-from-cheap Royal Mail Sameday service Special delivery services include monetary compensation for late- or non-delivery. It is possible to buy additional cover for Consequential Loss. Sometimes the damage, delay or loss of an item can lead to greater loss than the market value of the item itself. Delayed legal documents or damaged photographic transparencies are two examples. If you are sending such an item, you can opt for Consequential Loss cover which will entitle you to extra compensation should something go wrong SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> We are setting up a form on our web site. Should it be called "libary >>>>> users' [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > description of what happens. "Registered" is open to a variety of > interpretations, and may need an explanation. This information might be dated, but I believe it is accurate: Signed for mail would include "Certified", "Return Receipt Requested", and "Insured" mail. "Registered" mail is for articles of value such as jewelry, financial instruments, gold coins and currency. "Register" mail is dispatched separately in pouches closed with locks with permanent serial number and a 4-digit counter both of which are recorded on a dispatch document. Locks are signed for at each transfer point. "Certified", "Return Receipt Requested", and "Insured" mail is dispatched with ordinary mail. |
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