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Donne: The Apparition

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Marius Hancu - 20 May 2009 10:01 GMT
Hello:

Any assumptions as to why Donne is using "shall" in
"Then shall my ghost come"
in the 3rd person?

Is this something about it being fated, preordained?

He's using "will" consistently with the 3rd person in this poem.

----
WHEN by thy scorn, O murd`ress, I am dead,
And that thou thinkst thee free
From all solicitation from me,
Then shall my ghost come to thy bed,
And thee, feign`d vestal, in worse arms shall see :
Then thy sick taper will begin to wink,
And he, whose thou art then, being tired before,
Will, if thou stir, or pinch to wake him, think
        Thou call`st for more,
And, in false sleep, will from thee shrink

Donne: The Apparition, p. 69
http://donne.classicauthors.net/PoemsOfJohnDonne/PoemsOfJohnDonne42.html
-----

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Thanks.
Marius Hancu

the Omrud - 20 May 2009 14:16 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>         Thou call`st for more,
> And, in false sleep, will from thee shrink

It's a prediction.

- Cinderella, you *shall* go to the ball.

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David

Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 20 May 2009 14:26 GMT
> > Any assumptions as to why Donne is using "shall" in
> > "Then shall my ghost come"
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> - Cinderella, you *shall* go to the ball.

OK, I keep forgetting about this alternative.

Thanks.
Marius Hancu
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 May 2009 16:39 GMT
>> Hello:
>>
>> Any assumptions as to why Donne is using "shall" in
>> "Then shall my ghost come"
>> in the 3rd person?

Is he perhaps thinking of it in the 1st person? It will be he who will
be coming, having become a ghost.

    "Then shall I come (as a ghost)".

>> Is this something about it being fated, preordained?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>- Cinderella, you *shall* go to the ball.

Opened can of worms alert!

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/shall?view=uk

   shall
   modal verb (3rd sing. present shall)
   1 (in the first person) expressing the future tense.
   2 expressing a strong assertion or intention.
   3 expressing an instruction or command.
   4 used in questions indicating offers or suggestions.
   
   USAGE Strictly speaking shall should be used with I and we to form
   the future tense, as in I shall be late, while will should be used
   with you, he, she, it, and they, as in she will not be there. This,
   however, is reversed when strong determination is being expressed,
   as in I will not tolerate this, and you shall go to school. In
   speech the distinction tends to be obscured, through the use of the
   contracted forms I’ll, she’ll, etc.

"Cinderella, you *shall* go to the ball" is a strong assertion rather
than simply a prediction.

Shall/will is mentioned in a forum at:
http://www.englishforums.com/English/Default/blrvn/post.htm

[Final post on the page]

   There are lots of difficulties in the use of shall. It's partly
   regional and partly proscriptive.
   
   In Standard Southern English:
   
   Shall I put the light off? means Do you want me to put the light
   off?
   
   Will I put the light off? means Guess if I'm going to put the light
   off.
   
   In Scottish English Will I put the light off? means Do you want me
   to put the light off?
   
   In standard written British English when refering to simple futurity
   one is supposed to use shall for the first person only. The use of
   will in the first person implies obligation or intent. With the
   second and third persons the position is the reverse. When I was at
   school (in the 1960's) a master gave us the following two examples:
   
     I shall drown! No one will save me.
   
     I will drown! No one shall save me.
   
   The first is an expression of despair and the second an expression
   of suicidal intent.

It is claimed that Scots use shall and will the other way round, so that
from a Scot:
   
     I will drown! No one shall save me.
   
is an expression of despair that will be interpreted by the Southern
English as an expression of suicidal intent.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

the Omrud - 20 May 2009 16:43 GMT
>>> Hello:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> "Cinderella, you *shall* go to the ball" is a strong assertion rather
> than simply a prediction.

I think that's what I meant though.  I didn't put it forcefully enough -
it's a prediction which the speaker "knows" will happen.

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David

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 20 May 2009 16:46 GMT
>>>> Hello:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>I think that's what I meant though.  I didn't put it forcefully enough -
>it's a prediction which the speaker "knows" will happen.

OK. That makes sense.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Marius.Hancu@gmail.com - 21 May 2009 01:34 GMT
> >>> Any assumptions as to why Donne is using "shall" in
> >>> "Then shall my ghost come"
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> I think that's what I meant though.  I didn't put it forcefully enough -
> it's a prediction which the speaker "knows" will happen.

OK, thank you both.
Marius Hancu
Cece - 21 May 2009 16:04 GMT
> > >>> Any assumptions as to why Donne is using "shall" in
> > >>> "Then shall my ghost come"
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

As written in 1837, translated from an earlier work in Latin:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TUwEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=%22first+per
son+simply+shall+foretells%22&source=bl&ots=kK2ZzBvKyD&sig=2wqz_ybMXQS1sHYzpu_Um
ROhAEs&hl=en&ei=1mwVSqH3EZDg8wTbhuTHAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

 
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