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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Donne: The Bait
Hello: 1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" 2. I wonder about the meaning of "betray" and "traitors" in "Begging themselves they may betray" and "Or curious traitors, sleeve-silk flies" (in the latter I think it's the idea of the bait acting as a traitor) 3. What does it mean "be'st lo[a]th" in: "If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th" ---- COME live with me, and be my love, And we will some new pleasures prove Of golden sands, and crystal brooks, With silken lines and silver hooks. There will the river whisp'ring run Warm'd by thy eyes, more than the sun ; And there th' enamour'd fish will stay, Begging themselves they may betray. [5] ... If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th, By sun or moon, thou dark'nest both, And if myself have leave to see, I need not their light, having thee. Let others freeze with angling reeds, [6] And cut their legs with shells and weeds, Or treacherously poor fish beset, With strangling snare, or windowy net. Let coarse bold hands from slimy nest The bedded fish in banks out-wrest ; Or curious traitors, sleeve-silk flies, Bewitch poor fishes' wand'ring eyes. Donne: The Bait, p. 68 http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/bait.htm ----- Norton: [5] begging to be caught [6] fishing rods made from reeds  SignatureThanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > And there th' enamour'd fish will stay, > Begging themselves they may betray. [5] They may betray, or give themselves away, in begging to be caught. > ... > > If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th, If you don't want (be-est loath) to be seen. It's the archaic, poetic form of "If you are loath to be seen." > By sun or moon, thou dark'nest both, > And if myself have leave to see, > I need not their light, having thee. > > Let others freeze with angling reeds, [6] The footnote says the reeds are fishing poles. I guess it's cold at the old fishing hole. Could be staying still, I suppose, but he's painting an ugly picture of fishing and being cold fits for me. > And cut their legs with shells and weeds, > Or treacherously poor fish beset, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Or curious traitors, sleeve-silk flies, > Bewitch poor fishes' wand'ring eyes. The flies are going to betray the fish to those fishing. > Donne: The Bait, p. 68 > http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/bait.htm > ----- > Norton: > [5] begging to be caught > [6] fishing rods made from reeds SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > > If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th, > > If you don't want (be-est loath) Thank you for spelling it for me:-) First time I see "beest." Thank you both. Marius Hancu > > If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > And if myself have leave to see, > > I need not their light, having thee. Now, whom would his "leave [permission, I guess} to see" come from? Would it from her, or from God? Thanks. Marius Hancu >>> If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th, >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Would it from her, or from God? I think it means "freedom", which, further declined, becomes "strength" or "capability". I don't think this is particularly religious, and "she" has darkened both the sun and moon, leaving only her brightness, if his eyes can but see. > >>> If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "she" has darkened both the sun and moon, leaving only her brightness, > if his eyes can but see. Interesting take, and a possible one. Thanks. Marius Hancu > 1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" > I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" Yes: bait fishermen keep still, so as not to alarm the fish. > 2. I wonder about the meaning of "betray" and "traitors" > in > "Begging themselves they may betray" Because the fish will be attracted (by the girl), they offer to betray themselves, i.e. let themselves be caught. This would be a more successful method of catching fish than the several others of 1600 described by Donne, viz. guddling (tickling), bait fishing, fly fishing etc. > and > "Or curious traitors, sleeve-silk flies" This refers to artificial flies, made of the brightly coloured silks that ornament fancy clothing (cf. coat sleeves slashed to display the contrastingly coloured shirt undernneath.) Traitors = devices that attract the fish to hook themselves. Curious = clever, ingenious, etc. This line is interesting to the historian because such an early description of fishing flies, described in one 15th manuscript on field sports and only a couple of 16th century books. > (in the latter I think it's the idea of the bait acting as a traitor) > > 3. What does it mean "be'st lo[a]th" in: > "If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th" This verse combines two ideas: #1 The beauty is loath (reluctant) to darken, viz. become tanned by the sun. (She has already been described as an attractor as powerful as the sun.) #2 If only he can see the beauty, the angler/lover does not need the sun, because the light she radiates is brighter than the sun. > COME live with me, and be my love, > And we will some new pleasures prove > Of golden sands, and crystal brooks, > With silken lines and silver hooks. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >Hello: > >1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" >I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" No, I think they're just cold. They don't have the benefit of this woman's eyes to keep them warm. >2. I wonder about the meaning of "betray" and "traitors" >in >"Begging themselves they may betray" Begging to give themselves up, to be caught. >and >"Or curious traitors, sleeve-silk flies" >(in the latter I think it's the idea of the bait acting as a traitor) Artificial flies are treacherous. >3. What does it mean "be'st lo[a]th" in: >"If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th" If you are reluctant to be seen <snip great poem> SignatureJames [snip] Thanks. How about "Each fish, which every channel hath" does it mean the fish have the whole water at their disposal? ------ When thou wilt swim in that live bath, Each fish, which every channel hath, Will amorously to thee swim, Gladder to catch thee, than thou him. ---- Marius Hancu >[snip] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"Each fish, which every channel hath" >does it mean the fish have the whole water at their disposal? I take channel as the subject: Every channel has fish, and all the fish in every channel will swim to her. SignatureJames > >How about > >"Each fish, which every channel hath" > >does it mean the fish have the whole water at their disposal? > > I take channel as the subject: Every channel has fish, and all > the fish in every channel will swim to her. Interesting, and a real possibility. Hm .... Thanks. Marius Hancu > 1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" > I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" I would have thought it meant "suffer the cold". Donne did live after the beginning of the Little Ice Age, and the next line lists physical discomforts. Maybe someone with OED access will tell you when "freeze" began to be used for motionlessness. > 2. I wonder about the meaning of "betray" and "traitors" > in > "Begging themselves they may betray" She, their enemy, is so beautiful that they want to be captured. > and > "Or curious traitors, sleeve-silk flies" > (in the latter I think it's the idea of the bait acting as a > traitor) Me too, but the only rationale that comes to mind is that fish and real flies are fellow-members of the animal kingdom, and so the "flies", though made from bits of silk (and therefore "curious"? I'm supposing that "sleeve silk" is "sleave-silk", silk floss), in luring the fish to the hook, are betraying what can be conceived to be their natural allies. I admit it's weak. > 3. What does it mean "be'st lo[a]th" in: > "If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th" "Be'st" is another form of "art". If you are unwilling to be seen so (swimming nude). > ---- > COME live with me, and be my love, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > [5] begging to be caught > [6] fishing rods made from reeds "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> Whose moving finger wrote, and cheerfully Clicked "Send" to wing the words below to me, Is powerless to cancel half a line: 'Tis stored on Google sempiternally. >> 1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" >> I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >discomforts. Maybe someone with OED access will tell you when >"freeze" began to be used for motionlessness. The first quotation with the intransitive sense "To make oneself suddenly rigid or motionless" is from Jane Eyre, 1848. SignatureJames Jas. Hogg roars, & shakes his fires in the burden'd air; Hungry clouds swag on the froup: > "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> > Whose moving finger wrote, and cheerfully > Clicked "Send" to wing the words below to me, > Is powerless to cancel half a line: > 'Tis stored on Google sempiternally. >>> 1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" >>> I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> physical discomforts. Maybe someone with OED access will tell you >> when "freeze" began to be used for motionlessness. > The first quotation with the intransitive sense "To make oneself > suddenly rigid or motionless" is from Jane Eyre, 1848. That seems to settle the matter. Thank you. You may have started a new game. "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> came here for an argument by writing: >Jas. Hogg roars, & shakes his fires in the burden'd air; Hungry clouds >swag on the froup: > >You may have started a new game. ... inspired by the lovely and talented filting of Eddie's spirals. How long are you allowed to keep one such poetic attribution? I feel a bit guilty about taking up four lines. SignatureJames into the strenuous briefness Life: handorgans and AUE darkness, friends James Hogg charges laughing: > "CDB" <bellemarec@sympatico.ca> > came here for an argument by writing: >> Jas. Hogg roars, & shakes his fires in the burden'd air; Hungry >> clouds swag on the froup: >> You may have started a new game. > ... inspired by the lovely and talented filting of > Eddie's spirals. Inspiring, yes, but not treasures of the language per se. > How long are you allowed to keep one such poetic attribution? Just the nonce, I would think, and probably not in a steady stream; unless, as here, they are the subject of discussion. > I feel a bit guilty about taking up four lines. I'm guessing you'll get away with it, particularly since yours was much your own work. Me, we'll see. "Fool," said the Muse to CDB, "Look in thy heart and write." So he wrote: >into the strenuous briefness >Life: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >I'm guessing you'll get away with it, particularly since yours was >much your own work. I'm not sure Fitzgerald would agree. > Me, we'll see. If I'm going to play this game I'm going to have to start reading some poetry. SignatureJames Exegit James monumentum er' perrehnne: >> [] James Hogg charges laughing: >>> "CDB" [] writing: >>>> Jas. Hogg roars: >>>> You may have started a new game. [quatrain] >>> I feel a bit guilty about taking up four lines. >> I'm guessing you'll get away with it, particularly since yours was >> much your own work. > I'm not sure Fitzgerald would agree. I make it more than half yours, by word. > If I'm going to play this game I'm going to have to start reading > some poetry. It may be an idea whose time hasn't come. >> 1. "Let others freeze with angling reeds" >> I guess it means "not moving, freeze in wait while fishing?" [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >the fish to the hook, are betraying what can be conceived to be their >natural allies. I admit it's weak. I don't think you have to infer any actual duty of flies, silk or real, but just that the fish thinks the fly is food and is deceived. Meaning 6 of betray in AHD: "To lead astray; deceive" >> 3. What does it mean "be'st lo[a]th" in: >> "If thou, to be so seen, be'st lo[a]th" > >"Be'st" is another form of "art". If you are unwilling to be seen so >(swimming nude). SignatureJohn > Meaning 6 of betray in AHD: "To lead astray; deceive" I needed this. Thanks. Marius Hancu I think "freezing" means "sitting uncomfortably in the cold". "Freezong" is still used in that way in BrE, when the actual temperature, though low, is well above zero centigrade. May I say how good it is to see that you're reading such a fine poet? Try Andrew Marvell next, perhaps? Alan Jones > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > [5] begging to be caught > [6] fishing rods made from reeds |
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