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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009Defense of "false titles"
Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert Marcuse"? I'm writing a Wikipedia article on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_title_(English_usage) and all I can find is condemnation. Maybe the people who approve of it don't think they need to say anything about it. But I'd at least like a less biased name for it. Me? What? As I've mentioned, I dislike it. Especially when it's applied to something other than a person, as in "Hit British film Slumdog Millionaire has won the top prize at the Academy Awards" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/oscars/7904567.stm Does anyone have a source on using this construction for non-humans? -- Jerry Friedman >Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert >Marcuse"? What are you talking about? I have no idea what in that example you find objectionable. I've never heard of such a thing as a "'false title' construction". Whatever it is, I bet you can get Geoff Pullum or Arnold Zwicky to defend phrases constructed like your purported example as being a well-established part of English usage for centuries. -GAWollman  SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > In article <8c0bc5bf-3b64-47c4-b011-92b3b72d7...@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > What are you talking about? I have no idea what in that example you > find objectionable. I'd prefer "the famed New Left philosopher Herbert Marcuse" or "a famed New Left philosopher, Herbert Marcuse" as more natural. The phrase above has the same syntax as a real title, "Professor Herbert Marcuse". Another objection is that the construction doesn't tell you whether he's /the/ famed etc. or one of them. An example that I quoted at the article is from the '80s: "right-wing spokesman Maj. Roberto d'Aubuisson". Was he the spokesman for the entire Salvadoran right wing? Can we rely on his statements as official policy? Or was he one spokesman for one right-wing faction? > I've never heard of such a thing as a "'false title' construction". > > Whatever it is, I bet you can get Geoff Pullum or Arnold Zwicky to > defend phrases constructed like your purported example That's a good idea. > as being a > well-established part of English usage for centuries. Half a century, certainly (and /Time/ used to capitalize them). I'll be surprised if it's "well-established" for much more than a century, though a few isolated uses wouldn't surprise me, especially in poetry. -- Jerry Friedman > Another objection is that the construction doesn't tell you whether > he's /the/ famed etc. or one of them. An example that I quoted at the > article is from the '80s: "right-wing spokesman Maj. Roberto > d'Aubuisson". Was he the spokesman for the entire Salvadoran right > wing? Can we rely on his statements as official policy? Or was he > one spokesman for one right-wing faction? I think you can take Blowtorch Bob's word as authoritative for the Salvadoran right. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > In article <8c0bc5bf-3b64-47c4-b011-92b3b72d7...@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > defend phrases constructed like your purported example as being a > well-established part of English usage for centuries. A Wikipedian gave me this link to some of Pullum's comments on the construction: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001628.html He calls it an "anarthrous occupational nominal premodifier". "Occupational" because he's talking about the first sentences of / Angels and Demons/ and /The DaVinci Code/, respectively "Physicist Leonardo Vetra smelled burning flesh, and he knew it was his own." and "Renowned curator Jacques Saunière staggered through the vaulted archway of the museum's Grand Gallery." He says, "It's not ungrammatical; it just has the wrong feel and style for a novel," and makes no remarks about when it first appeared. In his first post on Brown, he says "Renowned curator Jacques Saunière..." would be "reasonable" in a newspaper report. http://158.130.17.5/~myl/languagelog/archives/000844.html -- Jerry Friedman doesn't agree with that "reasonable". > I'm writing a Wikipedia article on it > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_title_(English_usage) [1] Wrongly titled (there is no other article called "False title", so no disambiguator is needed). [2] NPOV. SignatureMark Brader "'Taxpayer' includes any person Toronto whether or not liable to pay tax." msb@vex.net -- Income Tax Act of Canada, s.248(1) > > I'm writing a Wikipedia article on it > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_title_(English_usage) > > [1] Wrongly titled (there is no other article called "False title", > so no disambiguator is needed). I'm hoping that someone will come up with a better name, making this point academic. However, I'll soon make a disambiguation page pointing to "False titles of nobility" (which incidentally needs to be changed to singular), "Half title", and maybe one or two other things. If my title stays, the "dab" page will point there too. > [2] NPOV. Does that mean the same thing as "POV" in this context? If so, I agree with you. That's what I'm looking for help on. -- Jerry Friedman Mark Brader: > > [2] NPOV. Jerry Friedman: > Does that mean the same thing as "POV" in this context? In effect. I meant to say "Failure of NPOV". The article seems to exist in order to say "Here is something that some people dislike", which is a reason for them to grow up, not to have an article about it. SignatureMark Brader | "If you have to go in, you go in. Toronto | The choice was made the day you took your oath." msb@vex.net | --Dan Duddy, New York Fire Department Jerry Friedman, Will he not wake, and in a desperate rage Post hither, this vile purpose to prevent? >Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it don't think they need to say anything about it. But I'd at least >like a less biased name for it. Quasi title? >Me? What? As I've mentioned, I dislike it. Especially when it's >applied to something other than a person, as in "Hit British film [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Does anyone have a source on using this construction for non-humans? No, but I can tell you that it makes me cringe as I see it spreading to British English. I insert "the" when I find it in texts I'm editing. SignatureJames > Jerry Friedman, > Will he not wake, and in a desperate rage [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Quasi title? That makes me think that any name with "title" is probably biased. The people who use them probably think of them as concise identifiers, not titles. > >Me? What? As I've mentioned, I dislike it. Especially when it's > >applied to something other than a person, as in "Hit British film [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > spreading to British English. I insert "the" when I find it in > texts I'm editing. Good man. -- Jerry Friedman > > Jerry Friedman, > > Will he not wake, and in a desperate rage [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The people who use them probably think of them as concise identifiers, > not titles. What about ambiguous titles, or equivocal titles? A bit too descriptive, but self-explanatory. Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com>, and I quote: >> > Jerry Friedman, >> > Will he not wake, and in a desperate rage [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >What about ambiguous titles, or equivocal titles? A bit too >descriptive, but self-explanatory. Or something more neutral, like: Appositives used as titles I see that the Chicago Manual (13th ed., 7.24) recommends the article "the" and firmly says that capitalization should be avoided in book publishing: "the historian Arthur Schlesinger", not "Historian Schlesinger". SignatureJames >Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Or something more neutral, like: >Appositives used as titles That seems reasonable. This style of quasi-title is not necessarily ambiguous. Ambiguity can be avoided. >I see that the Chicago Manual (13th ed., 7.24) recommends the >article "the" and firmly says that capitalization should be >avoided in book publishing: "the historian Arthur Schlesinger", >not "Historian Schlesinger". I think what we are looking at here are headline-ese squished descriptive labels that have escaped from captivity. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >I think what we are looking at here are headline-ese squished >descriptive labels that have escaped from captivity. I think you should give credit or discredit where it is due. The use of appositives in this way is probably the leading characteristic of "Time-speak", pioneered by the publication of that name, which was probably the first to use it other than in headlines, although that was at least seventy years ago. Most of the press, even in the USA, stood out against it for decades. It would never occur to me to refer to these constructions as "titles", even with the qualifier "false", and the name of this article would give me no clue what it might be about. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com>, and I quote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >"titles", even with the qualifier "false", and the name of this >article would give me no clue what it might be about. The word "false" could be misunderstood as meaning that the information in the "false title" is untrue. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On May 25, 11:07 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >>>Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianri...@aol.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Peter Duncanson, UK > (in alt.usage.english) That the naming of the beast is a point of contention is, in and of itself, evidence that you shouldn't make a Wikipedia article about this construct: It's well within the realm of original research. >On May 25, 11:07 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] >itself, evidence that you shouldn't make a Wikipedia article about >this construct: It's well within the realm of original research. You have a point, but Jerry asked: Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" construction If he can find a book or other existing source to quote then the Wikipedia article need not contain any original research. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > On May 25, 11:07 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > itself, evidence that you shouldn't make a Wikipedia article about > this construct: It's well within the realm of original research. I disagree completely. First, the naming doesn't seem to be precisely a point of contention; at least, none of the sources I've looked at have criticized any of the other names. Second, the existence of different names has no bearing on whether there is reliable information on a subject so that one can write an encyclopedia article on it without original research. "Stop" and "plosive" are names that different linguists use for the same kind of consonant, but that's no reason against a Wikip article on it. Likewise "American Indian", "Native American", "Amerindian", "First Nations", etc. (The overarching Wikip article on this topic is "Indigenous peoples of the Americas".) By the way, more people at Wikipedia than here are interested in questions such as whether an article is original research. You might want to comment at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:False_title_(English_usage) -- Jerry Friedman >Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianrises@aol.com>, and I quote: >>> > Jerry Friedman, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >avoided in book publishing: "the historian Arthur Schlesinger", >not "Historian Schlesinger". I'm now having a bout of speculation on 'Father David' and, worse, 'Mother Superior'. Whatever these 'false titles' are properly called, I can't think of an example of their use in vernacular speech. The practice shouts of journalism or the Dan Brown style of literature. On which latter subject, I am in the middle of a short book of bees which suffers from a severe bout of Danbrownianism. A computer seems to have been programmed to generate fact-sentences from a store of data, with portions not paraphrased or put in indirect speech but placed inside quotation marks (scare quotes?) for added punch. For example: researchers concluded that bees became disoriented, which "can temporarily damage the entire colony". The wrong verbs are used: hives perish or bees go awol, when what has actually happened is that the bees left their hive and didn't come back. If you want to avoid buying the book, it's called "A world without bees" by Benjamin and McCallum. SignaturePaul > Quoth Arcadian Rises <Arcadianri...@aol.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > avoided in book publishing: "the historian Arthur Schlesinger", > not "Historian Schlesinger". The 15th ed. (8.23, p. 318) simply says, "often with /the/". It still insists that such terms are "lowercased". -- Jerry Friedman > Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" > construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert > Marcuse"? I'm writing a Wikipedia article on it How do you stand on the ones that are proper titles in some varieties of English but not in others. I'm thinking particularly of the way US media oftern refer to "Prime Minister Brown" and "Foreign Secretary Miliwatt". They are "the Prime Minister" and "the Foregin Secretary" in BrE use, although I think "Secretary of State Clinton" is entirely correct (and, in reverse, we'd have a tendency to say "Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State"). SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > > Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" > > construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Miliwatt". They are "the Prime Minister" and "the Foregin Secretary" in > BrE use, <snip> Shirley 'the Foregin Secretary' is a barely disguised expletive? cheers, S. stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be filted: >> How do you stand on the ones that are proper titles in some varieties of >> English but not in others. =A0I'm thinking particularly of the way US [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Shirley 'the Foregin Secretary' is a barely disguised expletive? Is Onegin off again?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >>> construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Shirley 'the Foregin Secretary' is a barely disguised expletive? She's worse postgin. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >>>> Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >>>> construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >She's worse postgin. I'm not sure whether "Foregin" is a typo. In BrE "foreign" is sometimes said jocularly as "foregin" with the "i" as a schwa. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >>>>> construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm not sure whether "Foregin" is a typo. In BrE "foreign" is sometimes > said jocularly as "foregin" with the "i" as a schwa. I am. It was. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu On May 26, 12:58 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > On Mon, 25 May 2009 22:36:28 -0400, Jeffrey Turner > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I'm not sure whether "Foregin" is a typo. In BrE "foreign" is sometimes > said jocularly as "foregin" with the "i" as a schwa. And that's a -- conclusion. > Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" > construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > applied to something other than a person, as in "Hit British film > Slumdog Millionaire has won the top prize at the Academy Awards" I think of it as journalese. As journalese, it goes back at least to the stacks of Time magazines (1930s) that my parents kept & that I browsed in extensively in childhood. In early Time style, the pseudotitle was (IIRC) even capitalized & was often a portmanteau word, e.g., Cinemactress Rita Hayworth. I do not know if Time started this practice, but it has long been the usual way of introducing identifying information in newspapers and on radio & TV news. I still raise my eyebrows if I see it in a serious magazine article or book, and I have never heard it in conversation. The term "false title" seems to me appropriate inasmuch as the construction was probably suggested by the fact that many real titles are also names of occupations: "President" is President Obama's title, and "president" is his job description. The extension to nonoccupational nouns and to more or less elaborate noun phrases is then natural. However, the purpose of the apposed noun remains description, whereas that of a true title is respect. Thus, the most typical contexts for true titles are barred to this journalistic imitation. I might, in a formal situation, say "Good morning, Professor Marcuse" or say "Professor Marcuse thinks..." in a conversation with someone who already knew he was a professor. With "philosopher" (let alone "famed New Left philosopher") that would be grotesque. In conversation with someone who might not have heard of him, I would probably say "Herbert Marcuse, a well-known New Left philosopher"; in a nonjournalistic article I might shorten that to "the New Left philosopher Herbert Marcuse". Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Biology is dirty chemistry, chemistry is dirty physics, :|| ||: physics is dirty mathematics, and mathematics is dirty. :|| > Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" > construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Does anyone have a source on using this construction for non-humans? Found it! "Vilest of all is the habit of throwing together several nouns into one ghastly adjectival reticule: Texas millionaire real-estate developer and failed thrift entrepreneur Hiram Turnipseed..." http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=673931 The page is the Economist's style guide on Americanisms. Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? -- Jerry Friedman Hush'd is the din of tongues, when up and speaks Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>: >> Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >> construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >The page is the Economist's style guide on Americanisms. I thought you were looking for a book that defends the construction. >Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? I never knew the word meant that. I would have assumed that the author meant something like "network", although that's hardly appropriate for what is really just a chain of attributes. Is there some obscure allusion here to Johnson's definition of network: "Any thing reticulated, or decussated, at equal distances, with interstices between the intersections"? SignatureJames >Hush'd is the din of tongues, when up and speaks Jerry Friedman ><jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >network: "Any thing reticulated, or decussated, at equal >distances, with interstices between the intersections"? I've always assumed, without bothering to delay the progress of the rest of my life and tackle the question head-on, that the original purse-reticule was made of a net-like material, and that the name stuck when the material changed to something less likely to allow small change to fall through (that's a joke) or the world to see what was within. Taking another approach, a brown-paper parcel well tied up with string is also reticularly bound. Back to the small package of nouns done up with adjectival force: think of it like a bouquet-garni (I like hyphens this morning), allowing the sense to escape through Dr Johnson's interstices. Though why he thinks a network has to be regular also escapes me. SignaturePaul Quoth Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk>, and I quote: >>Hush'd is the din of tongues, when up and speaks Jerry Friedman >><jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >sense to escape through Dr Johnson's interstices. Though why he thinks a >network has to be regular also escapes me. Sometimes I think famed lexicographer Johnson was writing tongue-in-cheek. SignatureJames > Quoth Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > Sometimes I think famed lexicographer Johnson was writing > tongue-in-cheek. Thinks renowned literary maven James Hogg sometimes, was writing famed dictionarian Johnson cheek-tongued. SignatureMike. >James Hogg wrote: >> Quoth Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk>, and I quote: [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >Thinks renowned literary maven James Hogg sometimes, was writing famed >dictionarian Johnson cheek-tongued. I was inspecting some mezzotints this afternoon, as one does on warm Bank Holidays, and was struck by a depiction of Samuel Johnson after Joshua Reynolds. He appeared, especially from the hair, to be about 35 years old. It reminded me that I should not always see him, in the mind's eye, as always late middle-aged. Maybe I can find the image... Crikey. Here it is, and the blurb says SJ was 60 when the painting was made. <http://www.racollection.org.uk/> He /was/ always late middle-aged after all. SignaturePaul >>Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? > >I never knew the word meant that. I would have assumed that the >author meant something like "network", although that's hardly >appropriate for what is really just a chain of attributes. The crossword puzzle writer in the newspaper I read uses "small purse" as the clue to write in "reticule". Isn't Jerry's author using it to mean "something that contains a lot of stuff that we men don't think is necessary?". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Quoth tony cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net>, and I quote: >>>Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The crossword puzzle writer in the newspaper I read uses "small purse" >as the clue to write in "reticule". That must get quite predictable after a few times. >Isn't Jerry's author using it to >mean "something that contains a lot of stuff that we men don't think >is necessary?". That seems to rule out the possibility that this rant could have been written by a woman. I wrote "the author" above despite my firm conviction that it was a man. SignatureJames > >>Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mean "something that contains a lot of stuff that we men don't think > is necessary?". If he is, I think the word is a poor choice, since a reticule is specifically small and doesn't convey the idea of "a lot of stuff" as well as it might. And it's not like the author is trying to use moderate language. -- Jerry Friedman >> >>Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >well as it might. And it's not like the author is trying to use >moderate language. Think about how many words could be stuffed in a small purse, though. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Hush'd is the din of tongues, when up and speaks Jerry Friedman > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > I thought you were looking for a book that defends the > construction. ... Sorry, I should have snipped everything after "less biased name for it". I was enjoying the idea of titling the article "Ghastly Adjectival Reticule". -- Jerry Friedman Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>, and I quote: >> Hush'd is the din of tongues, when up and speaks Jerry Friedman >> <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >it". I was enjoying the idea of titling the article "Ghastly >Adjectival Reticule". Why not (apart from the slight bias)? "The ghastly adjectival reticule" works well in iambic pentameter. SignatureJames > Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Why not (apart from the slight bias)? "The ghastly adjectival > reticule" works well in iambic pentameter. Don't tempt me. The ghastly adjectival reticule: Does it in some way break a grammar rule? Faced with its fans, Bernstein would manacle 'em; All right in /Time/, says linguist blogger Pullum. [etc.] -- Jerry Friedman Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>, and I quote: >> Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >All right in /Time/, says linguist blogger Pullum. >[etc.] Thanks. You've saved me some time that I can now use productively. SignatureJames > Thanks. You've saved me some time that I can now use > productively. And shall you? I never quite manage to do anything very productive with my saved time. Husband who grew a beard thirty years ago justified its retention by calculating how much time he would save by not shaving but he has yet to provide an account of how this extra time is being spent. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >> Thanks. You've saved me some time that I can now use >> productively. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >retention by calculating how much time he would save by not shaving but >he has yet to provide an account of how this extra time is being spent. Yes, today I''ll work on a boring text instead of trying to write an amusing poem. SignatureJames > Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, today I''ll work on a boring text instead of trying to write > an amusing poem. In terms of the sum of human happiness, I would contend that the poem, if posted here, would be more productive. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >> Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >In terms of the sum of human happiness, I would contend that the poem, >if posted here, would be more productive. Is there a utilitarian in the house? The text is an application for funding for a project to study the provision of health care for thousands of elderly immigrants, and it will keep five researchers in employment for three years. The poem would be read by about thirty people. SignatureJames > Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > researchers in employment for three years. The poem would be read > by about thirty people. Harrumph. As someone who spends a great deal of time reviewing applications for funding bodies, as well as advising applicants, rewriting bids and comforting the rejected, the crucial question here is whether the application is likely to be successful. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS filted: >> Thanks. You've saved me some time that I can now use >> productively. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >retention by calculating how much time he would save by not shaving but >he has yet to provide an account of how this extra time is being spent. The time was spent it calculating how much time would be saved...time saved subsequent to the announcement of the result of those calculations will be spent in producing an account detailing the expenditure of that time....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Husband who grew a beard thirty years ago justified its retention by >calculating how much time he would save by not shaving but he has yet >to provide an account of how this extra time is being spent. I spend what time I save by using a word cruncher to think up ripostes to arguments won, or about to be won, by my wife. She's been impossible since Pope Gordon Bennet awarded her the Bene Meritus (see pbase.com/jamesfollett) last year. Quite a high Vatican honour for a woman. With God on her side, what chance do I stand? SignatureJames Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett >> Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" >> construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Why reticule? Don't ask me. A woman's small purse? As a container "reticule" is mildly reminiscent of its large and less elegant kin the "portmanteau". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" > construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert > Marcuse"? I'm writing a Wikipedia article on it > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_title_(English_usage) I was confused by the fact that all the examples seemed to include more than one title or apposition when that doesn't seem to be part of the definition. If I understand the discussion correctly, even something as simple as "pop singer Michael Jackson" is an example of the same thing. On May 25, 2:19 am, Peter Brandt Nielsen <peterbrandtniel...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Does anyone know of a book that defends the "false title" > > construction, as in "a Ph. D. under famed New Left philosopher Herbert [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something as simple as "pop singer Michael Jackson" is an example of > the same thing. Thanks. I had a phrase that simple, but I deleted it for Wikipedian reasons. The first example is now "convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh". -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman filted: >On May 25, 2:19=A0am, Peter Brandt Nielsen ><peterbrandtniel...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Thanks. I had a phrase that simple, but I deleted it for Wikipedian >reasons. The first example is now "convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh". The canonical example of this sort of designation is "slain civil-rights leader"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The canonical example of this sort of designation is "slain civil-rights > leader"....r I can't use that one for Wikip unless there's a "reliable source" (no offense) that uses it. At least, I can't now that I've brought it to people's attention. While researching this stuff, I happened on a reminder of "disgruntled office-seeker Charles J. Guiteau", which has got to be just about as canonical in America. -- Jerry Friedman >> Jerry Friedman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > office-seeker Charles J. Guiteau", which has got to be just about as > canonical in America. Do you count things like "Former President"? I see that back to things like Russell Harrison son of former President Harrison, is a short, stockily built man with a round face and a small French shaped mustache. _The Chautauquan_, April-Sept, 1897 His face and head are of the same type as those of former President Cleveland _The Granite Monthly_, 1898 I don't see it back further than that, and it seems to have caught on early in the twentieth century. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Specifically, I'd like to debate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |whether cannibalism ought to be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |grounds for leniency in murder, |since it's less wasteful. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> Jerry Friedman filted: > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > I don't see it back further than that, and it seems to have caught on > early in the twentieth century. Thanks for looking. That's kind of a borderline case--when "President Cleveland" is acceptable, why wouldn't "former President Cleveland" be? And the syntax is different, as "[former] President" can take just a surname but "New Left philosopher" usually gets a first name too. Or is that a semantic difference? However, it gives us a general idea. Obviously these things are hard to search for. -- Jerry Friedman In our last episode, <205e4300-894e-48b2-9467-9529c1607724@z7g2000vbh.googlegroups.com>, the lovely and talented Jerry Friedman broadcast on alt.usage.english: > Thanks for looking. That's kind of a borderline case--when "President > Cleveland" is acceptable, why wouldn't "former President Cleveland" > be? And the syntax is different, as "[former] President" can take > just a surname but "New Left philosopher" usually gets a first name > too. Or is that a semantic difference? However, it gives us a > general idea. > Obviously these things are hard to search for. Okay, I'm coming in late here because I am having difficulty understanding the subject header. Is this new term "false title" supposed to refer to something different from an epithet? SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> usenet@larseighner.com 125 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term. Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't. > In our last episode, > <205e4300-894e-48b2-9467-9529c1607...@z7g2000vbh.googlegroups.com>, the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the subject header. Is this new term "false title" supposed to refer to > something different from an epithet? The term goes back at least to 1960 (Roy Copperud, /Words on Paper/, p. 101). "It is a good idea to shun false titles entirely as one of the inventions that tend to make writing sound like the text of a telegram." http://books.google.com/books?ei=Uv4bSpuCH56GyASruIzEBw&id=PQA1AAAAMAAJ&dq=%22fa lse+titles%22+date%3A0-1970+Copperud&q=%22false+titles%22&pgis=1#search_anchor It means a noun phrase without an introductory article that is placed before another noun phrase to identify it, as in "Writer Lars Eighner asked..." or "She also helmed notorious disaster Ishtar". It might be considered a kind of epithet, but "White-armed Helen", "Odysseus of the nimble wits", and "The lovely and talented Jerry Friedman" don't contain "false titles". -- Jerry Friedman >On May 26, 1:37 am, Lars Eighner <use...@larseighner.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >"Odysseus of the nimble wits", and "The lovely and talented Jerry >Friedman" don't contain "false titles". A real-life example impossible to resist: "Hatemail Woman in Facebook Dead Cat Bag Privacy Horror Scandal" from one of this morning's posts to my favourite IP blog, IPKat: <http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/> because the story is so good, though I should warn cat-lovers of a delicate disposition that they might need to hold on to the sides of their chairs while reading. My own credentials are sound on cats, but I won't waste more space here with details. The story in a nutshell: deceased pet turned into a work of art, hatemail received, hatemail published in a book ("Dearest Tinkerbell") with senders' details and pictures found on the Internet, lawyers turn to IP issues. But read the blog. SignaturePaul >"Hatemail Woman in Facebook Dead Cat Bag Privacy Horror Scandal" > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >with senders' details and pictures found on the Internet, lawyers turn >to IP issues. But read the blog. So are you saying that "Hatemail" is an epithet, a false title, or both? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >On Wed, 27 May 2009 09:40:38 +0100, Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >So are you saying that "Hatemail" is an epithet, a false title, or both? Actually, if closely questioned, I'd say that 'Hatemail woman' is a title invented by the blogger for satirical purposes. But I really posted because of both ends of the whole headline phrase, enjoying the stacks of nouns heaped up together in an effort to out-journalese journalese. SignaturePaul >> On Wed, 27 May 2009 09:40:38 +0100, Paul Wolff >> <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> "Hatemail Woman in Facebook Dead Cat Bag Privacy Horror Scandal" [...] >> So are you saying that "Hatemail" is an epithet, a false title, or >> both? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stacks of nouns heaped up together in an effort to out-journalese > journalese. A missed opportunity. Let's at least have: "Local Hatemail Woman in Facebook Dead Cat Bag Privacy Bid Shock Horror Scandal Probe Row." SignatureMike. >> The canonical example of this sort of designation is "slain civil-rights >> leader"....r > >I can't use that one for Wikip unless there's a "reliable source" (no >offense) that uses it. At least, I can't now that I've brought it to >people's attention. A Nexis search would show thousands of newspaper articles referring to "slain civil-rights leader Martin Luther King". It's so canonical, you'd probably have a hard time finding the needles (writers commenting on the phrase) from the haystack. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman filted: >>> The canonical example of this sort of designation is "slain civil-rights >>> leader"....r [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >you'd probably have a hard time finding the needles (writers >commenting on the phrase) from the haystack. We haven't had a lot of Google counts lately: "slain civil rights leader" 36,700 hits "slain civil rights leader" -"martin luther king" 5,800 This would seem to suggest that when this one specific "false title" is used, it refers or alludes to Dr King some seventeen times out of twenty....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> The canonical example of this sort of designation is "slain >>> civil-rights leader"....r [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > canonical, you'd probably have a hard time finding the needles > (writers commenting on the phrase) from the haystack. Looking at the _NY Times_, I see him described as a "slain civil rights leader" on 4/6/1968 (two days after he died), but he doesn't get referred to as "slain civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr." until 4/11/1975: The Georgia Supreme Court has upheld the death sentence of Marcus Wayne Chenault, a black man from Dayton, Ohio, convicted in the shooting death of Mrs. Martin Luther King Sr., mother of slain civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. Prior to that (from 4/12/1968), I see him referred to as "the slain civil rights leader, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr." However, there is actually another who got the title before "King" qualified for the "slain": Mr. Evers, the N.A.A.C.P.'s field secretary in Mississippi and brother of slain civil rights leader Medgar Evers, conceded that differences existed but said he had "no knowledge that my job is in danger." [9/10/1965] SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |So when can we quit passing laws and 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |raising taxes? When can we say of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |our political system, "Stick a fork |in it, it's done?" kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > While researching this stuff, I happened on a reminder of "disgruntled > office-seeker Charles J. Guiteau", which has got to be just about as > canonical in America. I doubt there's more than a handful of Americans who wouldn't give you a blank stare if you mentioned James A. Garfield, much less his assassin. That canon hasn't been fired in years. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >> While researching this stuff, I happened on a reminder of "disgruntled >> office-seeker Charles J. Guiteau", which has got to be just about as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >blank stare if you mentioned James A. Garfield, much less his assassin. >That canon hasn't been fired in years. Keep your hands to yourself! I recognized the name and what he was known for. Not that I'm a big Presidential history buff, though. The first time I scrubbed in to observe surgery in the mid-60s, the Operating Room Supervisor stood over me and informed me that Guiteau shot President Garfield, but dirty hands killed him. I had to look up the reference later, and - being pre-Google days - that meant a trip to the library. You don't forget when you learn like that. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony cooper filted: >Not that I'm a big Presidential history buff, though. The first time >I scrubbed in to observe surgery in the mid-60s, the Operating Room >Supervisor stood over me and informed me that Guiteau shot President >Garfield, but dirty hands killed him. I had to look up the reference >later, and - being pre-Google days - that meant a trip to the library. >You don't forget when you learn like that. It didn't help much that they tried to x-ray for the bullet while the President lay on a steel-spring mattress....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Jeffrey Turner skrev: > I doubt there's more than a handful of Americans who wouldn't give you a > blank stare if you mentioned James A. Garfield, much less his assassin. > That canon hasn't been fired in years. Such a pessimist! I recognized Charles J. Guiteau immediately. I am not American, but I was in the eighth grade in an American school in November 1963, when our history teacher for some reason (no extra points for guessing why) pulled a special project on assassinations out of her hat. SignatureJens Brix Christiansen > > While researching this stuff, I happened on a reminder of "disgruntled > > office-seeker Charles J. Guiteau", which has got to be just about as > > canonical in America. > > I doubt there's more than a handful of Americans who wouldn't give you a > blank stare if you mentioned James A. Garfield, I think your estimate's a little low. I'd guess it's over half. And I live in an area with bad schools. > much less his assassin. Might be more reasonable. I seem to have been thinking that Guiteau is described as a "disgruntled office-seeker" as consistently as MLK is described as an SCRL, though as you say, MLK is mentioned far more often. > That canon hasn't been fired in years. Maybe it needs to be loosed. -- Jerry Friedman, wondering why Google Groups' ads for this page are about martial arts. Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>, and I quote: >On May 25, 2:19 am, Peter Brandt Nielsen ><peterbrandtniel...@gmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Thanks. I had a phrase that simple, but I deleted it for Wikipedian >reasons. The first example is now "convicted bomber Timothy McVeigh". I've been searching a bit more on this and found two names for this usage. In The Cambridge Guide to English Usage there is a section in the entry for "the" which I quote: *3. Journalistic omission of the* In everyday news reporting journalists often delete *the* when providing readers with a thumbnail identity of the person just mentioned in the report: _Peter Carey, (the) author of_ Oscar and Lucinda _and ex-advertising man has a gift for graphic description._ As an appositional structure, this is grammatically straightforward. But the practice is sometimes applied before mentioning the person's name: _Novelist and ex-advertising man Peter Carey has a gift for..._ This gives the person a "pseudo-title" (Meyer, 2002), a style which is well established in American news reporting but resisted in other quarters of the English-speaking world. It is strongly associated with journalese (see further under *journalism*). endquote If you then go to the journalism entry you find this: Other hallmarks of *journalese* are the lumpish sentences with overweight beginnings: _St Edmund's Catholic Church Youth Orchestra organizer Jane Filomel..._ _Keen amateur sports fisherman and union Vice President Jeff Bringamin..._ endquote The reference is to C Meyer, _English Corpus Linguistics_, CUP. SignatureJames > Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > endquote I hope Jeff is the vice president of the police union. (And unrelated to my senior senator, Jeff Bingaman.) > The reference is to C Meyer, _English Corpus Linguistics_, CUP. Thanks. I'm starting to feel an embarras de choix. "Overweight beginnings" would be a good title, though. -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman skrev: > "Overweight beginnings" would be a good title, though. There's already an article about that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood_obesity Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>, and I quote: <huge snip> >Thanks. I'm starting to feel an embarras de choix. "Overweight >beginnings" would be a good title, though. I have now read Pullum's entertaining piece about Dan Brown's opening sentences and had some thoughts provoked by his statement that "Cardinal" is a title; selling fertilizer is merely a job. That's true enough for English, I suppose, but it doesn't apply to Swedish. Until relatively recently, everyone in Sweden had to have some title preceding their name. For a man this preferably had to be something with more information value than just "Herr". So titles included not just things like General Hans Jonsson or Doctor Hans Jonsson but also Carpenter Hans Jonsson. This would be how the man's name was written on everything from envelopes to headstones. In Swedish, then, Fertilizer Salesman Scott Peterson would indeed be a title. I remember my first encounter with this practice. I was stopped by the police for failing to observe a Stop sign. The woman behind me on the tandem suggested that the fine should be made out in her name, since she was a Swedish national and owned the vehicle, whereas I was only visiting Sweden. That would not do. I was the driver so I had to pay the fine. The police woman took down my name and asked for my title. I didn't know what to say, but my co-tandemist piped up: "fil. doktor" (doctor of philosophy). Titles like that are placed before the name in Swedish. Luckily, the amount of the fine was not inflated by the title. And I should point out that I didn't stop only because it was bleeding obvious there was no other traffic on the road. But the law is the law. SignatureJames >I remember my first encounter with this practice. I was stopped >by the police for failing to observe a Stop sign. The woman [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >philosophy). Titles like that are placed before the name in >Swedish. Stephen Leacock recalls an incident in a theatre when a handsome lady member of the cast was taken ill. Stephen Leacock, being a doctor of philosophy, answered the call 'Is there a doctor in the house' promptly but not promptly enough because he was beaten by a doctor of divinity. SignatureJames Follett. Novelist. (G1LXP) http://www.jamesfollett.dswilliams.co.uk http://www.pbase.com/jamesfollett Quoth james <james@marage.demon.co.uk>, and I quote: >>I remember my first encounter with this practice. I was stopped >>by the police for failing to observe a Stop sign. The woman [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >philosophy, answered the call 'Is there a doctor in the house' promptly >but not promptly enough because he was beaten by a doctor of divinity. Rightly so. The Faculty of Theology traditionally takes precedence, followed by Law, Medicine, and finally the Faculty of Arts. This was the model established by the medieval University of Paris. SignatureJames james filted: >Stephen Leacock recalls an incident in a theatre when a handsome lady >member of the cast was taken ill. Stephen Leacock, being a doctor of >philosophy, answered the call 'Is there a doctor in the house' promptly >but not promptly enough because he was beaten by a doctor of divinity. ObNewTwistOnAnOldJoke: what kind of disease *is* divinity?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > james filted: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ObNewTwistOnAnOldJoke: what kind of disease *is* divinity?...r I don't know, and I'm not going to try to fudge an answer. -- Jerry Friedman |
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