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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009cut from a different cloth.
What is the meaning of "cut from a different cloth"? > What is the meaning of "cut from a different cloth"? A annoying cliche that means "different". Much less popular than "cut from the same cloth" for some reason. Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": > A annoying cliche that means "different". > Much less popular than "cut from the same cloth" for some reason. So much less popular that I can't recall actually hearing it, despite all the Google references (which include many mentions of Busta Rhymes). "Cut from the same cloth" is familiar to me. But if I wanted to reverse it, I'd probably say "cut from different cloth" -- leaving out the "a." I might even say "not cut from the same cloth" or "cast from a different mold." Why this is true baffles me. Custom is to blame, I suppose.  SignatureMaria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. Maria Conlon skrev: > > A annoying cliche that means "different". > > Much less popular than "cut from the same cloth" for some reason. > Why this is true baffles me. Custom is to blame, I suppose. Or a liking for colourful language. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Maria Conlon skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Or a liking for colourful language. Um, something's wrong here. Piet de Arcilla wrote the first two lines above. My own post was this: begin quote === So much less popular that I can't recall actually hearing it, despite all the Google references (which include many mentions of Busta Rhymes). "Cut from the same cloth" is familiar to me. But if I wanted to reverse it, I'd probably say "cut from different cloth" -- leaving out the "a." I might even say "not cut from the same cloth" or "cast from a different mold." Why this is true baffles me. Custom is to blame, I suppose. ===end quote. So my question is this: What was your comment in response to? Piet's comments or mine? (The answer to that may be perfectly apparent to everyone else reading this, but it isn't to me. Admittedly, my mind doesn't function as well as it used to. Even five minutes ago, I felt more sure of my sanity.) SignatureMaria Conlon Maria Conlon skrev: > Um, something's wrong here. Piet de Arcilla wrote the first two lines > above. The number of quotation marks shows the level of the quotation. Anything with more than one > is from a message previous to the one I quoted from, but appears in that. > So my question is this: What was your comment in response to? The quote immidiately above it - same as in the present message. > Even five minutes ago, I felt more sure of my sanity. I do hope that I did not contribute to your feeling of discomfort. That was certainly not my intention. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Maria Conlon skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > The quote immidiately above it - same as in the present message. And the quote immediately above was my comment "Why this is true baffles me. Custom is to blame, I suppose." That being the case, I think that deleting Piet's comment ("A annoying cliche that means 'different'") would have been a good idea because my "Why this...." line had nothing to do with what Piet said, but was a comment on something I'd just said -- and which you deleted. >> Even five minutes ago, I felt more sure of my sanity. The comment directly above, which you shortened, offers no context. Putting "[...]" before it, indicating thet something's been removed, is accepted protocol. > I do hope that I did not contribute to your feeling of > discomfort. That was certainly not my intention. I now say much the same to you. That is: You may find my comments (about deleting) offensive or isulting, but they are not meant that way. And other posters may find that what I've said (about deleting) is wrong. (Of course, I probably will not admit to being wrong about that. "Stubborn" is my middle name.) Maria Conlon ObEditing: I've edited this post a few times for clarity. It may now contain some inexplicable errors. Maria Conlon skrev: > I now say much the same to you. That is: You may find my comments (about > deleting) offensive or isulting, but they are not meant that way. I found them neither offensive nor insulting. I just explained the way that I have been used to answer messages for more than 15 years. Not that I always manage to do it perfectly, and others have sometimes criticized my way. > (Of course, I probably will not admit to being wrong about that. > "Stubborn" is my middle name.) Are we related? SignatureBertel, Denmark > Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Why this is true baffles me. Custom is to blame, I suppose. All those seem a long way from familiar to me, although not entirely unknown. The one impressed on my memory is, "Made up out of whole cloth", meaning completely invented, likely untrue. As for "Given an inch, he'll take a mile", the "Camel's nose in the tent" is another good image with similar but not same import. SignatureFrank ess >> Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The one impressed on my memory is, "Made up out of whole cloth", > meaning completely invented, likely untrue. [...] Here's one of the articles I just found (Google) about "whole cloth": http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/19/magazine/on-language-out-of-the-whole-cloth.html> As for "Given an inch, he'll take a mile", the "Camel's nose in thetent" is another good image with similar but not same import.In what specific ways do you find it different? (Just curious.)--Maria Conlon >>> Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > what specific ways do you find it different? (Just curious.)--Maria > Conlon That was a pair of useful links; thank you. My interpretation of the inch/mile and camel/tent scenarios show them different in at least two ways (given no more backstory than already present) : The 'story' can be contained in the expression of the former, while the latter requires a more extensive telling I have the apprehension that inch/mile is all-or-nothing, at the option of the taker only, and inevitable, given the first inch; the camel requires successive concessions by the tent-holder, whose generosity is exceeded only by his gullibility, and could be halted at any increment. One warns us against the injudicious toggle; the other against misplaced trust. Or summat. SignatureFrank ess >>>> Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": >>>> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > I have the apprehension that inch/mile is all-or-nothing, at the >option of the taker only, and inevitable, given the first inch; Yes. > the >camel requires successive concessions by the tent-holder, whose >generosity is exceeded only by his gullibility, and could be halted at >any increment. That interpretation is new to me. I've always assumed that the camel/tent saying is an example of "The thin end of the wedge". Perhaps I have misunderstood the meaning of the camel/tent saying. the thin end of the wedge an action or event which may seem important but is thought to be the first stage of a change that could become much more serious or harmful. (Referring to a wedge that is hammered into rock or wood in order to split it or force an opening) Longman Dictionary of English Idioms, 1979 >One warns us against the injudicious toggle; the other against >misplaced trust. > >Or summat. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Why this is true baffles me. Custom is to blame, I suppose. Interesting. My immediate reaction to the above was definitely the opposite - "a different cloth" in preference to "differnt cloth" without the article. I think the reason is that, taken literally, "a different cloth" carries the sense to me of a completely different type of material (denim as opposed to linen, for example). Whereas (to me at least) "different cloth" without the "a" doesn't convey the same degree of archetypal difference - it could refer to something as trivial as a difference in colour. Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yorks., Hants.) >Interesting. My immediate reaction to the above was definitely the >opposite - "a different cloth" in preference to "differnt cloth" >without the article. Cash-strapped bespoke tailors always had problems matching materials for men's suits. They'd scrap together enough money to buy material for the trousers, then the jackets, then the waistcoats. They'd ask their supplier for cuts from the same cloth. Blue was always a problem because it was prone to fading therefore suppliers kept blue material under wraps and were able to surprise tailors who always expected the worst. Hence the expression: A bolt from the blue. SignatureJames Follett Quoth james <james@marage.demon.co.uk>, and I quote: >>Interesting. My immediate reaction to the above was definitely the >>opposite - "a different cloth" in preference to "differnt cloth" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >A bolt from the blue. That enlightening explanation came out of the blue. I'm thunder-struck. SignatureJames > Cash-strapped bespoke tailors always had problems matching materials > for men's suits. They'd scrap together enough money to buy material [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > A bolt from the blue. <groan> <laugh> Glad to see you here again, and hope you're doing well. Maria >> Piet de Arcilla wrote, re "cut from a different cloth": >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > degree of archetypal difference - it could refer to something as > trivial as a difference in colour. Ah. I do understand your take on this. My own problem is that "cut from the same cloth" is something I've heard all my life. Thus, it sounds (to me) perfectly natural and idiomatic. On the other hand, "cut from a different cloth" is /not/ something I've heard many times, and it just sounds wrong. Thinking more about it: Maybe "cut from a different bolt" would work for me, since the "cloth" in both versions is actually a bolt of cloth. SignatureMaria Conlon >What is the meaning of "cut from a different cloth"? It's used to emphasize that there is a comparison between two different things; usually people. Consider: Smith is a career civil servant who has advanced his standing by doing favors for influential people. Jones is cut from a different cloth, and is often uncooperative if he feels the project does not have merit. The writer is comparing Smith to Jones by saying that he does things differently. The analogy to "a different cloth" (different weave, different pattern) gives the implication that Smith and Jones will be different in their approach to all matters that they are involved in. The same thing can be said omitting the "cut from a different cloth", but it then lacks the implication that Smith and Jones will always approach things differently. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >What is the meaning of "cut from a different cloth"? > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > but it then lacks the implication that Smith and Jones will always > approach things differently. The Dutch do it differently: 'uit (een) ander hout gesneden' (cut from different wood) The implication is usually positive. For example, A breaks under pressure, B is cut from other wood, and stands firm. The English expression lacks this positive aspect afaik, Jan J. J. Lodder skrev: > The Dutch do it differently: 'uit (een) ander hout gesneden' > (cut from different wood) In Danish we have an expression that corresponds to "cut from the same cloth". We do not use it with "different cloth". "Alen" is an old length measure that is no longer used. It's about two feet. to alen af et stykke two 'alen' of one piece "Of cloth" is understood, but today people may not know this and have something else in mind. The expression is used whether the two people are nice or not. SignatureBertel http://bertel.lundhansen.dk/ FIDUSO: http://fiduso.dk/ > J. J. Lodder skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Alen" is an old length measure that is no longer used. It's > about two feet. And is presumably related to the ell - an English measure of cloth that isn't used any more. > to alen af et stykke > two 'alen' of one piece > > "Of cloth" is understood, but today people may not know this and > have something else in mind. The same applies in "give him an inch and he'll take an ell". That's a fun similarity between two very different proverbs. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Nick skrev: > The same applies in "give him an inch and he'll take an ell". That's a > fun similarity between two very different proverbs. Our version of this is: Give the devil a finger and he'll take the whole hand. SignatureBertel http://bertel.lundhansen.dk/ FIDUSO: http://fiduso.dk/ > Nick skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Give the devil a finger and he'll take the whole hand. US version (at least in parts of the South and Midwest): Give him an inch and he'll take a mile. SignatureMaria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. >> Nick skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >US version (at least in parts of the South and Midwest): Give him an >inch and he'll take a mile. That version is familiar in the UK. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Nick skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >US version (at least in parts of the South and Midwest): Give him an >inch and he'll take a mile. Not just US. Blackadder: Give him an inch and he'll take a foot and you won't have a leg to stand on. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. Richard Bollard filted: >>> Nick skrev: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Blackadder: Give him an inch and he'll take a foot and you won't have >a leg to stand on. I'm racking (or wracking?) my brains trying to remember where this came from...possibly "Room 222" or "Dragnet": A TV show circa 1969-70 had a school drama department planning to put on a production of one of the hip new plays of the time, the kind with on-stage nudity...a meeting of concerned adults included one old coot whose only contribution was to mutter repeatedly "give 'em an inch and they'll take a yard, and it's usually off"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R H Draney wrote, re "give him an inch...": > I'm racking (or wracking?) my brains trying to remember where this > came > from...possibly "Room 222" or "Dragnet": [...] "Rack" or "wrack": this site explains which and why: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/?date=19980420 Other sites say something similar. Me, I'd have thought "wrack" was correct. In fact, I think I've spelled it just that way in using "wrack my brains" in writing. I wish things like this ("this" referring to a [possibly] wrong choice of mine) didn't happen. > A TV show circa 1969-70 had a school drama department planning to put > on a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > take a yard, > and it's usually off"....r Old coots are wonderful. (What's the fem. version of "coot"?) SignatureMaria Conlon Bertel Lund Hansen skrev: > Our version of this is: > > Give the devil a finger and he'll take the whole hand. My variant of the Danish version is slightly different: Reach out to the Devil with a little finger and he will take the whole arm. Ræk Fanden en lillefinger, og han tager hele armen. SignatureJens Brix Christiansen Quoth Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>, and I quote: >> J. J. Lodder skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >And is presumably related to the ell - an English measure of cloth that >isn't used any more. Both come from a word meaning "lower arm" (related to "elbow") but the length has varied greatly. The English ell = 45 in.; Scottish = 37·2; Flemish = 27; Scandinavian = 24 in. >> to alen af et stykke >> two 'alen' of one piece [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The same applies in "give him an inch and he'll take an ell". That's a >fun similarity between two very different proverbs. SignatureJames > Quoth Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>, and I quote: >>> J. J. Lodder skrev: >>>> The Dutch do it differently: 'uit (een) ander hout gesneden' >>>> (cut from different wood) >>> In Danish we have an expression that corresponds to "cut from the >>> same cloth". We do not use it with "different cloth". >>> "Alen" is an old length measure that is no longer used. It's >>> about two feet. >> And is presumably related to the ell - an English measure of cloth >> that isn't used any more. > Both come from a word meaning "lower arm" (related to "elbow") > but the length has varied greatly. The English ell = 45 in.; > Scottish = 37·2; Flemish = 27; Scandinavian = 24 in. I was inspired by these posts to look up the French "aune", an old measure still used for cloth in Haiti (I remember my mother complaining about having to recalculate her sewing-purchases, when we lived there) and Switzerland (I hear). Apparently it's another derivative of the Germanic word for forearm, through the Latinised "alina": ATILF says, through a jungle of abbreviations, that it may alternatively be a survival of the Gothic cognate. It doesn't say how long the aune was, but the Free Dictionary says 0.95 of an English ell at Paris, and other lengths elsewhere in the country. >>> to alen af et stykke >>> two 'alen' of one piece >>> "Of cloth" is understood, but today people may not know this and >>> have something else in mind. >> The same applies in "give him an inch and he'll take an ell". >> That's a fun similarity between two very different proverbs. French has "mesurer les autres à son aune", to judge others by oneself (in a bad way, usually), and "tout au long de l'aune", a great deal, too much -- which partly recalls "the whole nine yards". Reply to "CDB" (may his tribe increase). Awaking now from a deep dream of peace, I saw, within the moonlight in my room. Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom. An angel, writing in a book of gold, And here's the story his inscription told: >> Quoth Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>, and I quote: >>>> J. J. Lodder skrev: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Dictionary says 0.95 of an English ell at Paris, and other lengths >elsewhere in the country. It must have been one 'ell of a job converting between all these measures. > >>> to alen af et stykke >>>> two 'alen' of one piece [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >(in a bad way, usually), and "tout au long de l'aune", a great deal, >too much -- which partly recalls "the whole nine yards". Other English expressions gleaned from OED: to measure with the long ell, with the short ell: to measure unfairly as buyer or seller respectively. Orion's belt used to be known in Scotland as "the King's ell". And a quotation from 1682: "The Germans commonly drink whole tankards, and ell-glasses, at a draught." That's almost a yard of ale. SignatureJames > > Quoth Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk>, and I quote: > >>> J. J. Lodder skrev: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > (in a bad way, usually), and "tout au long de l'aune", a great deal, > too much -- which partly recalls "the whole nine yards". Dutch has the Wellerism (but they don't know what that is) '"Alles met mate", zei de kleermaker en hij sloeg zijn vrouw met de el.' (English: "Everything should be done measuredly," said the tailor and he hit his wife with the ell. (the ruler) An additional wordplay is there because in Dutch 'met mate' can mean both to measure and with moderation. Jan J. J. Lodder skrev: > Dutch has the Wellerism (but they don't know what that is) What is a Wellerism? > '"Alles met mate", zei de kleermaker en hij sloeg zijn vrouw met de el.' In Danish we say "Alt med måde" which means the same, except that "måde" has no association to a measurement. The type of joke is well known, but not used with this expression. SignatureBertel http://bertel.lundhansen.dk/ FIDUSO: http://fiduso.dk/ > J. J. Lodder skrev: > > > Dutch has the Wellerism (but they don't know what that is) > > What is a Wellerism? A manner of speaking like Sam Weller of Pickwick fame. "Typically a Wellerism consists of three parts: a proverb or saying, a speaker, and an often humorously literal explanation." (wiki) > > '"Alles met mate", zei de kleermaker en hij sloeg zijn vrouw met de el.' > > In Danish we say "Alt med måde" which means the same, except that > "måde" has no association to a measurement. Your national poet seems too agree, Jan SignatureENOUGH is more than enough Of drink and victuals and suchlike stuff a bit too little is just enough. ... >Both come from a word meaning "lower arm" (related to "elbow") >but the length has varied greatly. The English ell = 45 in.; >Scottish = 37·2; Flemish = 27; Scandinavian = 24 in. So compared to the English, Scandinavians are relatively 'armless. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. Quoth Learner <pamuditha99@gmail.com>, and I quote: >What is the meaning of "cut from a different cloth"? Made of different stuff, essentially different. SignatureJames |
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