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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2009A goalie's "fever save" - has English an expression like that?
Hi all In Danish we say about a fabulous save performed by a goalie that it was a fever save. I am wondering if there is an expression in English involving something with "fever"? If there isn't in sports, then maybe in another area, but still positive?  SignatureBertel, Denmark > Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If there isn't in sports, then maybe in another area, but still > positive? Any activity described as "feverish" would be frenzied, flurried, and frantic, but maybe not as successful as is suggested by "fabulous". "Fever" as an adjectival qualifier on its own is not idiomatic English at all. -- > "Fever" as an adjectival qualifier on its own > is not idiomatic English at all. "Fever dream"? SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu bert skrev: > Any activity described as "feverish" would be > frenzied, flurried, and frantic, but maybe not > as successful as is suggested by "fabulous". Quite understandable - and we are actually trying to figure out where the positive aspect came from, but it is commonly understood as an expression for a save that was next to impossible but succeeded nevertheless. SignatureBertel, Denmark > bert skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > understood as an expression for a save that was next to > impossible but succeeded nevertheless. Any idea what sense of 'fever' is meant? I think the nearest we have is "dream save" or something along those lines. Or is it a 'fluke'? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean skrev: > Any idea what sense of 'fever' is meant? We have not come to any conclusion. There are two teories that I can believe. I prefer the first: 1. When in fever, you is living in a sort of dreamworld where you fantasize. You act spontaneously and can do things that you couldn't normally do. You may be able to muster unknown strength. 2. A major effort raises the body's temperature and thus produces a sort of fever. A third theory compares with the word "feverish" and explains a fever save as a confused, hectic action, but that is not how the word is used. A fever save never results in the goalie holding the ball. It is a question of getting the tip of the finger on the ball just enough to make it hit the post or miss the goal entirely, and he is always stretching himself to the limit. > I think the nearest we have is "dream save" or something along those lines. That would have the same meaning. > Or is it a 'fluke'? No, absolutely not. SignatureBertel, Denmark >John Dean skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >the ball just enough to make it hit the post or miss the goal >entirely, and he is always stretching himself to the limit. I've been wondering about that sense of fever. OED: fever, n1 3. A state of intense nervous excitement, agitation, heat; an instance of this. feverish, a. 2. fig. Excited, fitful, restless, now hot now cold. feverishly, adv. b. fig. As if under the influence of fever; excitedly, fitfully, nervously, restlessly. These all seem to include the idea of bigger movements than would normally be made. In the case of a fingertip save it could be said that the goalie is stretching farther than could be reasonably expected. However, if we follow that line of thought the goalie who stretched even farther and managed to hold the ball would be acting even more feverishly, which does not seem to fit what you have described and is irrelevant if you do not have similar meanings in Danish. In English we have the phrase "reflex save" which describes a "save" by a goalie that has the nature of a "reflex action". The goalie does not have time to think but just acts automatically or "instinctively". It is a extended use of: reflex, a. 5. Physiology a. reflex action, involuntary action of a muscle, gland, or other organ, caused by the excitation of a sensory nerve being transmitted to a nerve-centre, and thence reflected along an efferent nerve to the organ in question; also in extended or fig. use. As far as I know, a reflex save is not limited to deflection (a fingertip save) but can iclude catching the ball. By chance the first example I found by Googling involved a Danish goalie: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football-cole-and-schmeichel-combine-to-keep- united-in-the-clear-1290130.html Newcastle United 0 Manchester United 1 Monday, 22 December 1997 ....it unsettled Schmeichel and the red-shirted minders directly in front of him. The Dane made a stunning reflex save after 24 minutes, when Stuart Pearce crossed from deep on the left and Barnes planted a seemingly unstoppable goal-bound header. Schmeichel had good reason for self-satisfaction, but not for long. A minute later, Keith Gillespie whipped the ball into the six-yard box and Schmeichel, under pressure from the lurking Faustino Asprilla, failed to hold it. He regained sufficient composure, however, to deflect wide Beresford's follow-up shot. >> I think the nearest we have is "dream save" or something along those lines. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >No, absolutely not. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >bert skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >understood as an expression for a save that was next to >impossible but succeeded nevertheless. Not the answer that you're looking for, but a common adjective for somethig related is "reflex" - where the body seems to take over and pull the near-impossible out of the bag without the intervention of concious thought. Cheers - Ian (BrE: Yoks., Hants.) >> Hi all >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > is not idiomatic English at all. > -- It could never be an adjectival qualifier because it's not an adjective, but it can be a nominal qualifier: "Excitement rose to fever pitch". Peter Groves Peter Groves skrev: > It could never be an adjectival qualifier because it's not an adjective, but > it can be a nominal qualifier: "Excitement rose to fever pitch". That spawns a new theory: A fever save gives the spectators a fever ... SignatureBertel, Denmark Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: >Peter Groves skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >That spawns a new theory: A fever save gives the spectators a >fever ... And a fever saves means fewer conceded goals. Anyway, you now know that the Danish term can't have been borrowed in any way from English. It must be a native expression coined by someone who though that "fever" was a good intensifier. I see it's been around for a while too. It's in my Politikens Slangordbog from 1982. Has it spread to any other compounds? SignatureJames "I hate to say it, but that was a good goal," Tom conceded. James Hogg skrev: > I see it's been around for a while too. It's in my Politikens > Slangordbog from 1982. Today I wouldn't call it "slang", but that may depend on a definition. > Has it spread to any other compounds? Not as such. Expressions from the sports world may be used to describe an everyday situation. If one does something really stupid, it is sometimes referred to as an own goal. I might be in a discussion where someone presents an argument that actually support the view of his opponents. SignatureBertel, Denmark >James Hogg skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >a discussion where someone presents an argument that actually >support the view of his opponents. Scoring an "own goal" is a stupid thing to do, but stupid actions on the pitch/field/court do not always - or even often - result in an own goal. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: [...]>> >> That spawns a new theory: A fever save gives the spectators a >> fever ... > > And a fever saves means fewer conceded goals. [...] "Feed a cold and starve a fever". An instruction of such Delphic ambiguity that I don't know for sure what it means. (Apologies if we've discussed it before: it feels slightly familiar.) (A Welsh-speaking acquaintance once told me "I saved a cold": it came out that he'd taken something which had stopped a cold developing.) SignatureMike. Quoth "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>, and I quote: >> Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: >[...]>> >>> That spawns a new theory: A fever save gives the spectators a >>> fever ... >> >> And a fever saves means fewer conceded goals. That should of course have read: And a fever save means fewer conceded goals. >[...] > >"Feed a cold and starve a fever". An instruction of such Delphic >ambiguity that I don't know for sure what it means. (Apologies if we've >discussed it before: it feels slightly familiar.) If you feed (encourage, do nothing about) a cold, you will later have to starve (eliminate, do something about) a fever. When we were children we believed it was dietary advice: eat plenty in order to cure a cold and eat little if you have a high temperature. I learned the true meaning of the saying relatively late in life. It must have been at about the same time I realised that "Spare the rod and spoil the child" doesn't mean "Don't use corporal children on children. Indulge their every whim." >(A Welsh-speaking acquaintance once told me "I saved a cold": it came >out that he'd taken something which had stopped a cold developing.) He starved it, in other words. SignatureJames > Quoth "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>, and I > quote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > temperature. I learned the true meaning of the saying relatively > late in life. I see both readings early on, and people in the nineteenth century asking which is the true one. In 1826, I see it given with the clauses reversed: Only a moderate portion of food should be given, and in case of much fever, little or none; but rather adhere to the old adage, "Starve a fever and feed a cold." Andrew Henderson, _The Practical Grazier_, 1826 The four hits from the 1820s all seem to agree that it's "a different treatment for each disease", although the other three hits all say that it's not good advice. (A 1785 hit for "stuff a cold, and starve a fever" similarly on both counts.) And so through the 1840s. It isn't until 1853 that the other reading (which I was unfamiliar with) is mentioned: "Feed a cold and starve a fever," is a common saying, which, when taken in the literal sense, has led to dangerous mistakes. The correct reading is directly opposite, and means, "If you feed a cold, you will have to starve a fever." _Eclectic Magazine_, April, 1853 I think I'd want to see some evidence that this wasn't a Just So story dreamt up to put a more reasonable reading on an adage that current medical wisdom said was harmful. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote: >> Quoth "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>, and I >> quote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >dreamt up to put a more reasonable reading on an adage that current >medical wisdom said was harmful. There's a detailed examination of the saying at: http://books.google.com/books?id=1SNTmiS7a-cC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211 SignatureJames > Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > There's a detailed examination of the saying at: > http://books.google.com/books?id=1SNTmiS7a-cC&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211 Which confirms that the understanding that I grew up with is that of the common folk and thus I am one of them. (Or possibly one of it, since that final paragraph emphasises the singularity of this body of people.) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >> Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >common folk and thus I am one of them. (Or possibly one of it, since >that final paragraph emphasises the singularity of this body of people.) I find it hard to think of you as "common folk". Maybe the scholarly explanation I quoted is not the original meaning after all. One of the many odd things about this saying is that it is first recorded so late, and then seems to be mostly quoted by people who say that the advice is wrong. SignatureJames > Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > I find it hard to think of you as "common folk". Dear me, do I give the impression of being anything other? Being ladylike is a considerable effort for me. Maybe the > scholarly explanation I quoted is not the original meaning after > all. One of the many odd things about this saying is that it is > first recorded so late, and then seems to be mostly quoted by > people who say that the advice is wrong. Gallacher appears to have been a paremiologist rather than a medical man. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >> Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > >Gallacher appears to have been a paremiologist rather than a medical man. Not a bad qualification for someone investigating the origin and meaning of the saying. Doctors through the ages have been hampered by their firm (and changing) convictions as to what the advice ought to be. SignatureJames > Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: [...] >> Gallacher appears to have been a paremiologist rather than a medical >> man. > > Not a bad qualification for someone investigating the origin and > meaning of the saying. [...] Good word, which I don't think I knew. Interesting that OED's quotations, /including/ the two American ones, all use the -oe- spelling, not the plain -e- one. SignatureMike. Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote: >> Quoth "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk>, and I >> quote: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >dreamt up to put a more reasonable reading on an adage that current >medical wisdom said was harmful. I found an earlier example, from 1828: "There is a very good old proverb admonishing us against eating much with a cold, viz. That if you stuff a cold you will be forced to starve a fever!" http://books.google.com/books?id=F2K4iE_VTC0C&pg=PA310 What is interesting here is that the author's tone is not polemical, i.e., he doesn't argue against the popular interpretation but takes it for granted that it can only mean what he thinks it means. Note also the non-elliptical form in which he quotes the proverb (if you ... you will). It's odd, then, that the author of the much earlier quotation, in a pamphlet reviewed in 1785, seems to know only the popular understanding of the elliptical proverb and condemns the advice: "The vulgar and absurd proverb, 'Stuff a cold, and starve a fever,' has, where-ever it has obtained, been perhaps more destructive to mankind than the plague itself. The author recommends the following regimen upon the first appearance of a cold: 'As soon as it is found to come upon a person, he should immediately lessen the quantity of his food.' " http://books.google.com/books?id=SisoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA399 Curiouser and curiouser. SignatureJames On 25 May 2009, Mike Lyle wrote >> Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: > [...]>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Feed a cold and starve a fever". An instruction of such Delphic > ambiguity that I don't know for sure what it means. I can never remember which you're supposed to feed and which to starve; I'd make a crummy folklorist. (Which, having written it, looks like "florist" when you glance at it quickly. I'd be crap at that, too.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed Quoth HVS <usenet@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk>, and I quote: >On 25 May 2009, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >(Which, having written it, looks like "florist" when you glance at it >quickly. I'd be crap at that, too.) As the old Devon saying goes: A crap florist makes a crummy folklorist. (Or was it the other way around?) SignatureJames >On 25 May 2009, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >(Which, having written it, looks like "florist" when you glance at it >quickly. I'd be crap at that, too.) Both the Coral snake and the Scarlet King snake are found in Florida. The Coral snake is venomous and the King snake is not. Both snakes are red, yellow, and white in color, but the order of banding is different. There are several variations of "Red then yellow will kill a fellow, but if red then black, then you needn't stand back"* to tell you which is which. Somehow, I can't see standing there trying to remember the rhyme to determine if I'm facing a deadly viper. *Or maybe it's "Red then yellow is a friendly fellow, but red then black means better stand back". I forget. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >On 25 May 2009, Mike Lyle wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I can never remember which you're supposed to feed and which to >starve; I'd make a crummy folklorist. "Fever" and "starve" each have a "v". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>On 25 May 2009, Mike Lyle wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "Fever" and "starve" each have a "v". And "fever" and "feed" each have an "f". Now you just have to remember which letter is supposed to be the same. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If to "man" a phone implies handing 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it over to a person of the male Palo Alto, CA 94304 |gender, then to "monitor" it |suggests handing it over to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |lizard. (650)857-7572 | Rohan Oberoi http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >James Hogg wrote: >> Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >"Feed a cold and starve a fever". An instruction of such Delphic >ambiguity that I don't know for sure what it means. I know what I think it means, at any rate. When I have a cold, I eat for comfort. When I have a fever, I lose my appetite. My patient nurses over the years, bless them[1], have become willing servants to the adage. >(Apologies if we've >discussed it before: it feels slightly familiar.) > >(A Welsh-speaking acquaintance once told me "I saved a cold": it came >out that he'd taken something which had stopped a cold developing.) Is that odd? To save something [from happening] seems quite normal. He wasn't a Welsh-speaking Danish goalkeeper, by any chance? [1] See that prayerful thread for a c.f. SignaturePaul > Peter Groves skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That spawns a new theory: A fever save gives the spectators a > fever ... Think of the function of a fever in the human body: raises internal temperature beyond the tolerance of injurious bodies within the system. An automatic defense mechanism. SignatureFrank ess >> Peter Groves skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >temperature beyond the tolerance of injurious bodies within the >system. An automatic defense mechanism. All we need now is confirmation that the person who coined the phrase "fever save" intended that analogy. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: >Hi all > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If there isn't in sports, then maybe in another area, but still >positive? The only example I can think of is the term used by Nick Hornby for the field on which football is played: Fever Pitch. SignatureJames >Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The only example I can think of is the term used by Nick Hornby >for the field on which football is played: Fever Pitch. That wasn't the pitch as such, but a many-layered reference to the obsession of a worshipper at the Highbury shrine whose foundations were laid by that all-round good egg Herbert Chapman, fresh from Huddersfield Town. 'Fever Pitch' is just an existing phrase that brought the strands together. I'd have thought that all those Gunnars in Denmark would understand. For myself, I've not been to watch Arsenal since they moved house. I'm not sure I could truly believe in the new stadium. If someone is said to do something feverishly, it means in extreme urgency and without time for thought, but there is an underlying suggestion of an obsession about the performance. The spectators may be delirious about their team's success, but never about its failure. SignaturePaul I'm delirious about my new eye-level grill... |
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