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How many feet in a meter?

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Bob G - 03 Jun 2009 03:00 GMT
From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:

"  "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather
conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966
feet),"  rench Prime Minister Francois Fillon told lawmakers in
parliament Tuesday.  "

About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
anyway?
Mark Brader - 03 Jun 2009 04:44 GMT
Bob G.:
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> About 23,000 feet maybe?

Usually the next thing that happens is that someone does round it to
"23,000 feet", and then a Canadian paper picks it up, converts it
back to metric, and quotes Fillon as saying that the depths "reach
up to 7,010 metres".

Incidentally, I like the bit about depths reaching up.
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James Silverton - 03 Jun 2009 14:56 GMT
Mark  wrote  on Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:44:25 -0500:

> Bob G.:
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> About 23,000 feet maybe?

> Usually the next thing that happens is that someone does round
> it to "23,000 feet", and then a Canadian paper picks it up,
> converts it back to metric, and quotes Fillon as saying that
> the depths "reach up to 7,010 metres".

> Incidentally, I like the bit about depths reaching up.

The US National Park Service is also helpful to foreign visitors. I have
seen a sign with "Viewpoint 1/2 mile (804.7 m)".
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Percival P. Cassidy - 03 Jun 2009 14:56 GMT
> "  "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather
> conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
> anyway?

You *want* the same kind of idiocy that appeared in Australian
newspapers for quite a while after the conversion to the metric system?
E.g., "The suspect was approximately 175.26cm in height...." I called it
"delusions of accuracy." I assume that somebody had reported the
suspect's height as "approximately 5ft 9in", and somebody had converted
this to an exact metric equivalent.

Similarly, I knew someone who took the Queensland driving licence test
just after metric conversion. Now all the distances (e.g., how close to
a corner may one park?) were no longer nice round numbers of feet but
expressed in metres and two decimal places. Where the old answer was "10
ft," the new expected answer was "3.05 metres"; "3 metres" was not an
acceptable answer.

Perce
John Kane - 03 Jun 2009 16:59 GMT
On Jun 3, 9:56 am, "Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.invalid>
wrote:

> > "  "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather
> > conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Perce

We used to get that too but I don't remember seeing anything too
obvious recently.
With a lot of younger people having never been formally exposed to the
Imperial System it may be dying out.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Hatunen - 03 Jun 2009 18:43 GMT
>Similarly, I knew someone who took the Queensland driving licence test
>just after metric conversion. Now all the distances (e.g., how close to
>a corner may one park?) were no longer nice round numbers of feet but
>expressed in metres and two decimal places. Where the old answer was "10
>ft," the new expected answer was "3.05 metres"; "3 metres" was not an
>acceptable answer.

I can see a real problem here. If the statute governing such
parking has not been metricized and still says 10 ft, then one
has to be very careful in the conversion not to alter that law.

We have a metric Interstate highway south of Tucson to the
Mexican border. Distance signs are metric but the speed limit
signs say, e.g., 65mph. The signs can's say it in kph for the
simple reason that the law does not.

Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification, much to
the annoyance and objections of many of us southern Arizonans. As
far as I know it's the only metrically signed highway in the USA.

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 03 Jun 2009 19:02 GMT
Hatunen skrev:

> Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification, much to
> the annoyance and objections of many of us southern Arizonans. As
> far as I know it's the only metrically signed highway in the USA.

There used to be metric signs on Interstate 71 in Ohio, as documented here:

http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/signs/i-71-ohio.html

It seems that they have been taken down north of Columbus. I don't know
if they are still up between Columbus and Cincinnati.

Anyway, there are metric signs on the Maine Turnpike:

http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg

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Jens Brix Christiansen

James Silverton - 03 Jun 2009 19:11 GMT
Jens  wrote  on Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:02:58 +0200:

>> Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification, much
>> to the annoyance and objections of many of us southern
>> Arizonans. As far as I know it's the only metrically signed
>> highway in the USA.

> There used to be metric signs on Interstate 71 in Ohio, as
> documented here:

> http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/signs/i-71-ohio.html

> It seems that they have been taken down north of Columbus. I
> don't know if they are still up between Columbus and
> Cincinnati.

> Anyway, there are metric signs on the Maine Turnpike:

> http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg

I'm not a lawyer but I think road signs are a matter of state rather
than federal law. The metric system has long been legal under federal
law but its use is not directly enforceable, as far as I know. In the
days when a uniform speed limit was desired by the Carter
administration, reluctant states were induced to impose it by a threat
of withdrawal of federal funds.
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Ian Jackson - 03 Jun 2009 20:37 GMT
>Hatunen skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg

In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight
-literally metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m".
For some reason, the highways people decided that that is the correct
symbol for "miles".
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Ian

Jonathan Morton - 03 Jun 2009 21:30 GMT
> In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -literally
> metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m". For some
> reason, the highways people decided that that is the correct symbol for
> "miles".

But they're not. Our distance signs merely say "London 120" or whatever - no
mention of miles, metres, kilometres or anything.

When I saw the heading to this thread, my first thought was that it's six
for a hexameter and five for a pentameter.

Regards

Jonathan
Ian Jackson - 03 Jun 2009 21:35 GMT
>> In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -literally
>> metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m". For some
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>When I saw the heading to this thread, my first thought was that it's six
>for a hexameter and five for a pentameter.

I must admit that I haven't 'positively' looked lately for the 'little
m', but I'm pretty sure that most distance signs do have them. Maybe
it's only on motorways? I can't have imagined this constant source of
annoyance to me.
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Ian

Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT
>In message <hdadnUMjL6LHQLvXnZ2dnUVZ8sOdnZ2d@bt.com>, Jonathan Morton
><jonathan.mortonbutignorethispart@btinternet.com> writes
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>it's only on motorways? I can't have imagined this constant source of
>annoyance to me.

I walked around the White Horse and Uffington Castle this evening (light
until ten - wonderful) and remarked to the National Trust warden there
that a finger post giving the distance to Wayland's Smithy was marked
2.2 km but also, with more precision, as 1.37 miles (sorry, I don't
remember what abbreviation was used for miles). She told me that she had
measured the distance herself, and the metric distance had been easy to
round off, but the miles gave her a problem, whether to go up or down
and mislead the walker either way; so she just gave the next significant
figure, leaving it to the reader to cope with the extra information.
That seemed a very practical approach to conversion.

It's remarkable how narrow the lines of the horse are, yet they can be
made out over many miles.

The author here agrees:
<http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earthmysteries/EMWhiteHorse.html>
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Paul

Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 09:59 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote:
>I walked around the White Horse and Uffington Castle this evening
>(light until ten - wonderful) and remarked to the National Trust warden
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>significant figure, leaving it to the reader to cope with the extra
>information. That seemed a very practical approach to conversion.

Such precision is unnecessary. I'd expect to see 2 km (1 1/4 miles).
Decimal miles are pretty unusual in the UK, except on the dashboard.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 12:35 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote:
>>I walked around the White Horse and Uffington Castle this evening
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Such precision is unnecessary.

But she had walked the distance herself, with a measuring device. She
was proud of her effort and wanted the result to show her diligence.

>I'd expect to see 2 km (1 1/4 miles).
>Decimal miles are pretty unusual in the UK, except on the dashboard.

And, matchingly, in the output of route guidance software.
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Paul

bulland@gmail.com - 04 Jun 2009 00:14 GMT
On 3 June, 21:35, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> In message <hdadnUMjL6LHQLvXnZ2dnUVZ8sOdn...@bt.com>, Jonathan Morton
> <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> writes>"Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> it's only on motorways? I can't have imagined this constant source of
> annoyance to me.

I think (having checked with some Google images) distances to
junctions/services have the little m, but not distances to places.
Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 00:07 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
>literally metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m".
>For some reason, the highways people decided that that is the correct
>symbol for "miles".

Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See
<http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file).

In any event, whatever the highways people decide is the correct symbol
for miles is the correct symbol for miles. By definition. The UK highway
sign style might be non-standard but it's not "wrong" AFAIK.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Ian Jackson - 04 Jun 2009 09:02 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See
><http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file).

I see what you mean! I think you're right. Silly me.

>In any event, whatever the highways people decide is the correct symbol
>for miles is the correct symbol for miles. By definition. The UK highway
>sign style might be non-standard but it's not "wrong" AFAIK.

I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the
'correct' symbol for miles. However, without looking it up, I can't
think what it is. It can't be 'ml', because that's millilitres. At
school, I'm sure we used 'mls', but these days this could easily be
confused with millilitres (although it should only be 'ml').
Ah! Is it 'mi'?
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Ian

Leslie Danks - 04 Jun 2009 09:28 GMT
[...]

> I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the
> 'correct' symbol for miles. However, without looking it up, I can't
> think what it is. It can't be 'ml', because that's millilitres. At
> school, I'm sure we used 'mls', but these days this could easily be
> confused with millilitres (although it should only be 'ml').
> Ah! Is it 'mi'?

The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1992 edition) gives both "mi."
and "m." (the "." distinguishing it from "m" for metre).

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Les (BrE)

Ian Jackson - 04 Jun 2009 11:07 GMT
>[...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1992 edition) gives both "mi."
>and "m." (the "." distinguishing it from "m" for metre).

Noted. Thanks.
I'm still trying to find other authoritative information, and stumbled
across this. Very interesting, but it doesn't seem to deal with symbols.
<http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Mile>
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Ian

Roland Hutchinson - 04 Jun 2009 15:10 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1992 edition) gives both "mi."
> and "m." (the "." distinguishing it from "m" for metre).

Ah, lexicographers.  Give 'em a meter and they'll take a mile.

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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 09:50 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the
>'correct' symbol for miles.

They have the authority to decide what is correct for their signs, which
is the point I was making.

>However, without looking it up, I can't think what it is. It can't be
>'ml', because that's millilitres. At school, I'm sure we used 'mls',
>but these days this could easily be confused with millilitres (although
>it should only be 'ml').
>Ah! Is it 'mi'?

"Correct" is a slippery concept. I believe the NIST recommends "mi", but
that N stands for "National" as in a different nation. They'd also have
us writing mi/h and mi/g I'm sure.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 11:34 GMT
Ian Jackson:
> I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the
> 'correct' symbol for miles. However, without looking it up, I can't
> think what it is. It can't be 'ml', because that's millilitres. ...

The standard for SI (metric) specifies what the correct symbols for its
units are.  There is no equivalent document for miles; they are defined
by the government or standards authority within each country that uses
them.  (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that for ordinary
purposes a mile is 1609.344 m.)  Which means that your highways people
*do* have the authority to get it wrong by using "m", instead of "mi."
as we do here, unless some other branch of your government has declared
otherwise.
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 11:45 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>The standard for SI (metric) specifies what the correct symbols for its
>units are.  There is no equivalent document for miles; they are defined
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>as we do here, unless some other branch of your government has declared
>otherwise.

I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for
"miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing
that?

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Nick - 04 Jun 2009 19:08 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>>The standard for SI (metric) specifies what the correct symbols for its
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing
> that?

Absolutely.  Using "p" for metres is clearly getting it wrong and
breaking the standard.  But using a well established "m" for miles is no
more wrong that using K for your friend Kevin when scoring a game of
darts.

Interestingly, according to
http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html the units should be in
roman type.  It's quite legitimate to read that as meaning that the
sans-serif "m" used on British road signs isn't a valid SI symbol at all
and so must be perfectly all right.

Nick, arguing on his own time.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 19:15 GMT
> Interestingly, according to
> http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html the units should be in
> roman type.  It's quite legitimate to read that as meaning that the
> sans-serif "m" used on British road signs isn't a valid SI symbol at all
> and so must be perfectly all right.

I don't see any conflict between "roman" and "sans-serif".  To me, it
contrasts primarily with "italic", being unslanted.  The OED also
contrasts it with "gothic", which also seems right.

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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:37 GMT
>Absolutely.  Using "p" for metres is clearly getting it wrong and
>breaking the standard.  But using a well established "m" for miles is no
>more wrong that using K for your friend Kevin when scoring a game of
>darts.

Unless, of course, Katherine is also competing.

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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 21:10 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>  Which means that your highways people
>> *do* have the authority to get it wrong by using "m", instead of "mi."
>> as we do here...

Mike Barnes:
> I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for
> "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing
> that?

In the sense that it's not "mi."
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 23:15 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>Mark Brader:
>>>  Which means that your highways people
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>In the sense that it's not "mi."

But what makes "mi" the only right way?

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Cheshire, England

Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 23:22 GMT
Mike Barnes:
>>> I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for
>>> "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing
>>> that?

Mark Brader:
>> In the sense that it's not "mi."

Mike Barnes:
> But what makes "mi" the only right way?

No, I said "mi.", although the period may be omitted on road signs.
Why?  Because I said so.  What did you think?
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 07:35 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>Mike Barnes:
>>>> I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>No, I said "mi.",

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm used to people, especially people
from that side of the Atlantic, ending their sentences within quotes,
then hurriedly closing the quotes after the end of the sentence. It now
appears that your sentence didn't finish at all.

>although the period may be omitted on road signs.
>Why?  Because I said so.  What did you think?

That's exactly what I thought. But I try not to jump to conclusions.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 11:02 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>>> In the sense that it's not "mi."

Mike Barnes:
> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm used to people, especially people
> from that side of the Atlantic, ending their sentences within quotes,
> then hurriedly closing the quotes after the end of the sentence.
> It now appears that your sentence didn't finish at all.

Of course it did.  The "." inside the quotes subsumes the one outside.
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 11:40 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>Mark Brader:
>>>>> In the sense that it's not "mi."
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Of course it did.  The "." inside the quotes subsumes the one outside.

So - being serious for a moment - how is one supposed to tell whether
you meant "mi" or "mi."? Given that both are likely but quite different
interpretations of what you wrote?.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 19:36 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>>>>> In the sense that it's not "mi."

Mike Barnes:
>>> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm used to people, especially people
>>> from that side of the Atlantic, ending their sentences within quotes,
>>> then hurriedly closing the quotes after the end of the sentence.
>>> It now appears that your sentence didn't finish at all.

Mark Brader:
>> Of course it did.  The "." inside the quotes subsumes the one outside.

Mike Barnes:
> So - being serious for a moment - how is one supposed to tell whether
> you meant "mi" or "mi."? Given that both are likely but quite different
> interpretations of what you wrote?.

Getting a bit carried away with the punctuation there?.? :-)

You're supposed to tell because it's an abbreviation, and therefore
requires a period; and also because I used it in the previous message
not at the end of a sentence.
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Default User - 04 Jun 2009 23:29 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:

> > In the sense that it's not "mi."
>
> But what makes "mi" the only right way?

It's mi way for the highway.

Brian

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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:13 GMT
>Ian Jackson:
>> I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>them.  (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that for ordinary
>purposes a mile is 1609.344 m.)  

Not for surveying purposes, it isn't. The USA retains two sets of
definitions for the foot. The survey foot is defined as 1200/3937
of a meter. the difference from the usual definitions is small
but over the distances involved in surveys can still be
significant.

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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 21:11 GMT
Mark Brader (emphasis added):
> > (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for ordinary
> > purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.)  

Dave Hatunen:
> Not for surveying purposes...

Exactly.
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 22:05 GMT
>Mark Brader (emphasis added):
>> > (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Exactly.

i guess it's a question of what one considers "ordinary".
Surveying is an ordinary purpose for me.

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James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 23:33 GMT
Mark  wrote  on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:11:36 -0500:

> Mark Brader (emphasis added):
> >> (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for
> >> ordinary purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.)

> Dave Hatunen:
>> Not for surveying purposes...

> Exactly.

The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters *exactly*,
agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age that's their
problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature
deciding that PI was 3!

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Skitt - 04 Jun 2009 23:50 GMT
> Mark wrote:
>> Mark Brader (emphasis added):

>>>> (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for
>>>> ordinary purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.)
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters *exactly*,

Good heavens, that's a very long inch.

> agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age that's
> their problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the Tennessee
> legislature deciding that PI was 3!

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James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 23:58 GMT
Skitt  wrote  on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:50:20 -0700:

>> Mark wrote:
>>> Mark Brader (emphasis added):

>>>>> (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for
>>>>> ordinary purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters
>> *exactly*,

> Good heavens, that's a very long inch.

>> agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age
>> that's their problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the
>> Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3!

Dead right! 2.54 cm, 25.4 mm!

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 00:45 GMT
> Skitt  wrote  on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:50:20 -0700:

>>> The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters
>>> *exactly*,
>
>> Good heavens, that's a very long inch.
>
> Dead right! 2.54 cm, 25.4 mm!

You know, it's funny.  The simple conversion factors between units is
supposed to be one of the great advantages of the metric system, but I
see this confusion between cm and mm all the time.  (I think we've
seen it at least twice in this thread.)  I can't recall seeing a
similar confusion between feet and inches or pounds and ounces.  I'm
starting to wonder whether the fact that the numbers appear so similar
actually contributes to the likelihood of making this particular
error.

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Leslie Danks - 05 Jun 2009 07:45 GMT
[...]

> You know, it's funny.  The simple conversion factors between units is
> supposed to be one of the great advantages of the metric system, but I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> actually contributes to the likelihood of making this particular
> error.

Surely this is something that occurs only during the transition period
between one set of units and the other--which involves old geezers
learning something new. I can't imagine anyone brought up in the metric
system (and using it for everyday tasks) confusing mm and cm.

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Les (BrE)

Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 17:55 GMT
>[...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>learning something new. I can't imagine anyone brought up in the metric
>system (and using it for everyday tasks) confusing mm and cm.

I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and
we were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out
worksheets that required the students to do some conversons
between metric units. One of the questions involved changing
meters to centimeters.

One cute little tenth grader said she didin't understand the
problem, so I led her through it, step by step. After much
promting from me she finally grasped that there were 100cm in a
meter. Then, with increaing frustration, I got her to understand
she had to multiply by 100.

I walked away in despair when she innocently asked me, "How do
you multiply by 100?"

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Robert Bannister - 07 Jun 2009 00:21 GMT
>> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> I walked away in despair when she innocently asked me, "How do
> you multiply by 100?"

I hope you showed her which buttons to press on her calculator.

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Rob Bannister

Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 02:25 GMT
>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I hope you showed her which buttons to press on her calculator.

Forty years ago?

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the Omrud - 07 Jun 2009 09:23 GMT
>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Forty years ago?

And it's quite difficult to explain how to multiply by 100 on a slide rule.

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David

Roland Hutchinson - 07 Jun 2009 14:25 GMT
>>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
>>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> And it's quite difficult to explain how to multiply by 100 on a slide
> rule.

Not as difficult as it is to explain how to add.

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... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
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Frank ess - 07 Jun 2009 17:45 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Forty years ago?

Forty-nine years ago I was using push-buttons on Friden calculators.

Choosing the right buttons would make them do magic with rhythms.

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Frank ess

Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:08 GMT
>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Choosing the right buttons would make them do magic with rhythms.

Was that the desk calculator with the small vector monitor
showing a four-high stack and using reverse polish notation? I
had one of those at a job I was on in 1966.

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Frank ess - 09 Jun 2009 04:44 GMT
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> writes:
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> showing a four-high stack and using reverse polish notation? I
> had one of those at a job I was on in 1966.

I can affirm the "desk" part; the remainder is beyond my ken or
remembery. If you mean by "monitor", some kind of electronic display,
no; all electrically powered machinery with numbers on wheels, it
seemed.

The row of machines in what we called the "statistics lab" were large
and had columns and rows of spinning numbers. Someone practiced and
experimented so he could make all the whirrings and thumpings produce
waltz tempos, marches, and a Latin rhythm of some kind. All I ever got
to was posing a division problem (or was it multiplication) that
yielded a product 1234567 ... end.

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Frank ess

Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 04:53 GMT
>>Forty-nine years ago I was using push-buttons on Friden calculators.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> showing a four-high stack and using reverse polish notation? I
> had one of those at a job I was on in 1966.

My high school had a couple of those, acquired around that date.

Darned well taught me what a stack was, they did.

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Roland Hutchinson       

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... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:16 GMT
>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Forty years ago?

My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There were
calculators around then, but of course not for school children. I think
I still knew how to use a slide rule back then - the last time I looked
at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else,
and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway.

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Rob Bannister

John Kane - 08 Jun 2009 15:14 GMT
> >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
> >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else,
> and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway.

Interesting. A bout 40 years ago slide rules were more or less
obligatory for our grade nine students (approx. 14 years/age).  The
slide rules were small ( perhaps 15-20 cm in length) but they were
handy.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Nick Spalding - 08 Jun 2009 16:53 GMT
John Kane wrote, in
<72a6bfd8-2611-49d4-8cc2-c29ff02b4201@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>
on Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:14:16 -0700 (PDT):

> > >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
> > >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> slide rules were small ( perhaps 15-20 cm in length) but they were
> handy.

There is one of those in a drawer in this desk.  I have a ten inch one
upstairs somewhere.
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Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

J. J. Lodder - 08 Jun 2009 22:09 GMT
> >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
> >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else,
> and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway.

That was in the golden age,
when real SF heros navigated their spaceships
to the centre of the galaxy and back
with their slide rules,

Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 22:59 GMT
>> My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There were
>> calculators around then, but of course not for school children. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> to the centre of the galaxy and back
> with their slide rules,

And a book of astrogation tables.  Or Max Jones.

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J. J. Lodder - 09 Jun 2009 10:17 GMT
> >> My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There were
> >> calculators around then, but of course not for school children. I
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> And a book of astrogation tables.  Or Max Jones.

No, a slide rule really is what it takes.
See the illustration in
<http://www.ansible.co.uk/sfx/sfx129.html>
for proof,

Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 16:02 GMT
>> >> My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There
>> >> were calculators around then, but of course not for school
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> <http://www.ansible.co.uk/sfx/sfx129.html>
> for proof,

He was a pirate.  He'd use the astrogation tables on the ship he was
taking over.

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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:11 GMT
>>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
>>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else,
>and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway.

There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk calculators.
Mechanical calculators had been around for decades, and
electronic desk calculators were jsut appearing, but see
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-and-Notebooks/How-the-HP35-Calculator-Killed-t
he-Slide-Rule-and-Made-an-IT-Giant-773270/


"In the early 1970s, the slide rule was standard equipment for
students, engineers and scientists. The personal computer was
still a twinkle in the eyes of the visionaries. Then, in 1972,
Hewlett-Packard introduced the world's first scientific pocket
calculator—the HP-35—and delivered portable "computing power"
into the hands of users. An instant hit among scientists and
engineers, the HP-35 soon displaced slide rules and marked the
birthplace of HP's innovative and highly successful heritage in
the handheld calculator market."

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 02:34 GMT
> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
> ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk calculators.

Apparently, there were handheld calculators, too.  Several sources say
that TI brought one out one in 1967.  And that it cost $2,500 (nearly
$16,000 in 2008 money).

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James Silverton - 09 Jun 2009 13:12 GMT
Evan  wrote  on Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:34:24 -0700:

>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty
>> years ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk
>> calculators.

> Apparently, there were handheld calculators, too.  Several
> sources say that TI brought one out one in 1967.  And that it
> cost $2,500 (nearly $16,000 in 2008 money).

There were handheld mechanical calculators in the 50s. I remember one
called a Curta (spelling in doubt) that would even fit in a pocket but
was rather heavy, A Google image search on Curta calculator will bring
up pictures.

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James Silverton - 09 Jun 2009 13:22 GMT
James  wrote to Evan Kirshenbaum on Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:23 -0400:

>>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty
>>> years ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk
>>> calculators.

>> Apparently, there were handheld calculators, too.  Several
>> sources say that TI brought one out one in 1967.  And that it
>> cost $2,500 (nearly $16,000 in 2008 money).

> There were handheld mechanical calculators in the 50s. I
> remember one called a Curta (spelling in doubt) that would
> even fit in a pocket but was rather heavy, A Google image
> search on Curta calculator will bring up pictures.

Sorry, about this addition to my own post. I began to write it before I
thought to do the Google search and did not remove the comment about
spelling. I haven't had my coffee yet.

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Mark Brader - 09 Jun 2009 03:57 GMT
Dave Hatunen:
> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
> ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk calculators.

Correct.  Pocket calculators appeared just before I went to university
in 1972 -- the first one I remember was the Rapidman, a Canadian brand,
and Wikipedia says the first of all was a Busicom model in 1971.

The HP-35 was the first *scientific* pocket calulator (i.e. with log
and trig functions) and came out in 1972.  They were priced too high
for typical students, and I remember when the University of Waterloo
set up a calculator table in the library with a number of HP-35's
firmly fastened down to it.

I got my first pocket calculator in 1972, just a basic model, and
replaced it with an HP-21 in 1976.

> Mechanical calculators had been around for decades, and
> electronic desk calculators were jsut appearing...

They were a bit earlier, maybe early 1960s.  I remember seeing one
with a Nixie tube display at my father's office well before I went
to university.
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Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 05:18 GMT
> Dave Hatunen:
>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> in 1972 -- the first one I remember was the Rapidman, a Canadian brand,
> and Wikipedia says the first of all was a Busicom model in 1971.

The first one spotted during my undergraduate career at MIT was owned by a
freshman in 1972 whose grandmother owned a large chunk of a Fortune 100
company.  Just four functions, and priced so that if you needed to ask you
couldn't afford one.

> The HP-35 was the first *scientific* pocket calulator (i.e. with log
> and trig functions) and came out in 1972.  They were priced too high
> for typical students, and I remember when the University of Waterloo
> set up a calculator table in the library with a number of HP-35's
> firmly fastened down to it.

By the time I graduated a few years later, the HP 25C (continuous memory!
wowie!) had become the tool of choice for students who needed to do
calculations, and the Coop had stopped selling slide rules.

The scientific calculator in the library was a Wang desktop-sized model.

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... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
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Murray Arnow - 09 Jun 2009 14:05 GMT
>> Dave Hatunen:
>>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>The scientific calculator in the library was a Wang desktop-sized model.

Now, that takes me back to antiquity. The Wang calculator really wasn't
desktop. It's console had nixie tubes and the cpu was in a metal
suitcase usually kept on the floor. About 1966 the calculator had only
basic arithmetic functions with built-in trig and log function. About
four years later it had more memory and could be programmed. All the
electronics were discrete. Those transistors in the suitcase heated the
room nicely.

When I were a lowly grad student, a professor used some grant money to
get an HP-35 for $395. It was the marvel of the department. He was lucky
to get it. The demand was huge. HP put on a big push to sell as many as
possible, because they figured they had only a six month jump on the
competition. HP used its entire sales force for its promotion. The
calculator was sold in addition to whatever product line the salesman
had. HP induced the salesmen to sell the calculator by rewarding them
with a free calculator if they sold over a certain number. This little
bit of HP history comes courtesy of the physics department HP sales rep.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:43 GMT
>When I were a lowly grad student, a professor used some grant money to
>get an HP-35 for $395. It was the marvel of the department. He was lucky
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>with a free calculator if they sold over a certain number. This little
>bit of HP history comes courtesy of the physics department HP sales rep.

I seem to recall a calculator, perhaps from HP, that had a
display that only showed three significant figures like a slide
rule.

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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:29 GMT
>>> Dave Hatunen:
>>>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> electronics were discrete. Those transistors in the suitcase heated the
> room nicely.

That's true.  It had its own dedicated table with a shelf or something for
the suitcase.  One of my duties as assistant head of circulation was to
check from time to time that the thing was still working.  It always was (or
at least the nixie tubes would light up when it was turned on and the users
never complained).

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He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 08:18 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Hatunen wrote:
>There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
>ago, 1969, there weren't.

It's rather closer than that. For instance the Sinclair Executive pocket
calculator went on sale in the UK in 1972.

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Mike Lyle - 09 Jun 2009 22:50 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Hatunen wrote:
>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
>> ago, 1969, there weren't.
>
> It's rather closer than that. For instance the Sinclair Executive
> pocket calculator went on sale in the UK in 1972.

And the Sinclair Cambridge must have appeared in about '74, because I
vaguely think I must have got my Dixon's knock-off in '75 or '76 (for
£7, was it?).

Signature

Mike.

John Kane - 09 Jun 2009 14:22 GMT
> On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:16:04 +0800, Robert Bannister
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years
> ago, 1969, there weren't.

Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a pocket)
mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually seen one but the
wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta describes it.

I do remember an engineering student friend of mine who actually had a
calculator in late 1972 or earlier 1973.  I think it was the first
time I'd even heard of them.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:45 GMT
>Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a pocket)
>mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually seen one but the
>wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta describes it.

The Curtas were heavily advertised in magazines like Scientific
American.

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James Silverton - 10 Jun 2009 01:02 GMT
Hatunen  wrote  on Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:45:28 -0700:

>> Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a
>> pocket) mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually
>> seen one but the wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta 
>> describes it.

> The Curtas were heavily advertised in magazines like
> Scientific American.

Did you ever use one?  One was available for our use when I was a grad
student but it was never very popular. Hand operated digital calculators
were never much liked. I remember that the computer lab had a number of
hand cranked Facit machines that were equally unpopular. The lab
director felt that they instilled a real understanding of mechanical
calculation.  The motorized Facit *was* used even if the internal
carriage had a disturbing tendency to move the whole machine as it
returned. If you did not watch it, there was tendency for it to walk off
your desk. Nevertheless, it was built like a tank and survived several
such accidents.

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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:25 GMT
>>Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a pocket)
>>mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually seen one but the
>>wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta describes it.
>
> The Curtas were heavily advertised in magazines like Scientific
> American.

Didn't those ads (the later ones, at least) promote the fact that they took
one to the moon, or at least into earth orbit?

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Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

rwalker - 09 Jun 2009 19:52 GMT
snip

>"In the early 1970s, the slide rule was standard equipment for
>students, engineers and scientists. The personal computer was
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>birthplace of HP's innovative and highly successful heritage in
>the handheld calculator market."

I started college in 1976.  That same year, I got my first pocket
calculator and my first (and only) slide rule.  

Even now, I have an HP scientific calculator, but with the advent of
PCs, even it gets hardly any use.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:05 GMT
>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we
>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>Forty years ago?

It was the 1969-70 school year. I don't think even the HP
electronic slide rule was available yet, but I could be wrong. I
bought my first four-function calculator in 1978.

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Jerry Friedman - 09 Jun 2009 03:51 GMT
> On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:55:29 +0200, Leslie Danks
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> I walked away in despair when she innocently asked me, "How do
> you multiply by 100?"

It's nice to know that some things haven't changed.

--
Jerry Friedman
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:24 GMT
>[...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>learning something new. I can't imagine anyone brought up in the metric
>system (and using it for everyday tasks) confusing mm and cm.

It is a misapprehension that the USA is not metric; the metric
system has been legal since the latter 19th century when all the
American units were defined in terms of the metric units.

Today a substantial part of the American economy uses metric
units (notable alcoholic beverages).

It matters little overall if Americans continue to use their old
units. There is little harm in having our highway signage in
miles and feet. The usual argument in favor of adopting the
metric system is to help make our exports more attractive to
other countires, but by and large our exports are already done in
metric units. Sure, some people working in industry have to
maintain one set of units for their private lives and another for
their jobs, but it seems to be working OK.

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Nick Spalding - 07 Jun 2009 12:14 GMT
Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com>
on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:

> >[...]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> maintain one set of units for their private lives and another for
> their jobs, but it seems to be working OK.

Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?
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BrE/IrE

Leslie Danks - 07 Jun 2009 12:25 GMT
> Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com>
>  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:

[...]

>> It matters little overall if Americans continue to use their old
>> units. There is little harm in having our highway signage in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?

Too much toffee?

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Ian Jackson - 07 Jun 2009 13:22 GMT
>> Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com>
>>  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Too much toffee?

Yes. The Mars probe got 'decimated'!
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jun 2009 12:51 GMT
>Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com>
> on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
>Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?

"Havoc"? Just a "mishap".

   Mars Climate Orbiter
   Mishap Investigation Board
   Phase I Report
   November 10, 1999

   ....
   The MCO was launched on December 11, 1998, and was lost sometime
   following the spacecraft's entry into Mars occultation during the
   Mars Orbit Insertion (MOI) maneuver. The spacecraft's carrier signal
   was last seen at approximately 09:04:52 UTC on Thursday, September
   23, 1999.

   The MCO MIB has determined that the root cause for the loss of the
   MCO spacecraft was the failure to use metric units in the coding of
   a ground software file, “Small Forces,” used in trajectory models.
   Specifically, thruster performance data in English units instead
   of metric units was used in the software application code titled
   SM_FORCES (small forces). A file called Angular Momentum
   Desaturation (AMD) contained the output data from the SM_FORCES
   software. The data in the AMD file was required to be in metric
   units per existing software interface documentation, and the
   trajectory modelers assumed the data was provided in metric units
   per the requirements.

   During the 9-month journey from Earth to Mars, propulsion maneuvers
   were periodically performed to remove angular momentum buildup in
   the on-board reaction wheels (flywheels). These Angular Momentum
   Desaturation (AMD) events occurred 10-14 times more often than was
   expected by the operations navigation team. This was because the MCO
   solar array was asymmetrical relative to the spacecraft body as
   compared to Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) which had symmetrical solar
   arrays. This asymmetric effect significantly increased the
   Sun-induced (solar pressure-induced) momentum buildup on the
   spacecraft. The increased AMD events coupled with the fact that the
   angular momentum (impulse) data was in English, rather than metric,
   units, resulted in small errors being introduced in the trajectory
   estimate over the course of the 9-month journey. At the time of Mars
   insertion, the spacecraft trajectory was approximately 170
   kilometers lower than planned. As a result, MCO either was destroyed
   in the atmosphere or re-entered heliocentric space after leaving
   Mars’ atmosphere.

   The Board recognizes that mistakes occur on spacecraft projects.
   However, sufficient processes are usually in place on projects to
   catch these mistakes before they become critical to mission success.
   Unfortunately for MCO, the root cause was not caught by the
   processes in-place in the MCO project.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 17:55 GMT
> Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com>
>  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?

What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for
numeric input data but was handed numbers that implicitly had
different units.  That one was metric and the other not is immaterial.
I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though
I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch
was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done
that last one myself).  I think I remember one (local) expensive piece
of equipment being damaged because it expected (fractions of)
millimeters and got microns, causing it to jerk out of tolerance.

The problem wasn't and isn't the mismatch, it's the fact that the
units are left implicit (i.e., only mentioned in the documentation, if
at all) and therefore not checked or converted.  It's possible to do
it right, but people can't quite agree on the specs, so it never seems
to get added to programming languages or libraries.  It was a decent
contender to get added to the upcoming version (7) of Java, but I
understand it didn't get in.  This has been one of my professional
peeves for nearly twenty years now.

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James Hogg - 07 Jun 2009 18:02 GMT
Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote:

>> Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com>
>>  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>understand it didn't get in.  This has been one of my professional
>peeves for nearly twenty years now.

Do you mean twenty calendar years of 365.2425 days or twenty
Julian years of 365.25 days?

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 22:17 GMT
> Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Do you mean twenty calendar years of 365.2425 days or twenty
> Julian years of 365.25 days?

Calendar years, but with the specificity of "nearly twenty", I'm not
sure what difference it would make.

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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 19:29 GMT
Nick Spalding:
>> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?

Evan Kirshenbaum:
> What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for
> numeric input data but was handed numbers that implicitly had
> different units.  That one was metric and the other not is immaterial.

Fair point.  Really, the cause of problems is the conversion from one
system to the other.  If people would just stop introducing metric,
these problems wouldn't arise. :-)

> I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though
> I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch
> was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done
> that last one myself).

I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jun 2009 19:41 GMT
>Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>system to the other.  If people would just stop introducing metric,
>these problems wouldn't arise. :-)

Fortunately there were no Martians involved or there would have been at
least one more set of units to consider.

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(in alt.usage.english)

Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 23:37 GMT
> Nick Spalding:
>>> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of.

I don't have any specific incidents at hand.  I've got a hardcopy file
at work somewhere, mostly of programmatic approaches people had come
up with, but with some history as well, but I was hot on this around
1990 or so, so it's all on paper.  A few incidents that are vaguely
sticking in my head are a plane from Canada that ran out of fuel
because engineers (manually) decided there was enough fuel by using a
conversion factor that assumed different units than they did, somthing
that crashed because its height-above-ground alarm level was specified
assuming thousands of feet rather than feet (and so never triggered),
and an incident involving cancer-treatment radiation equipment.  I
wish my memory was better.

I've personally misconfigured timers or written programs that
misinterpreted clocks.  I've generated very bizarre-looking graphs by
not realizing the implicit units that a graphing package's API
expects.  I've seen programs incorrectly assume that the Unix "du"
program returns sizes in kilobytes rather than half-kilobyte bocks.
I've told people "No, it didn't fail to print; your entire graph is in
that one dot."

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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 07:07 GMT
>>> What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for
>>> numeric input data but was handed numbers that implicitly had
>>> different units.  That one was metric and the other not is immaterial.

>> Fair point.  Really, the cause of problems is the conversion from one
>> system to the other.  If people would just stop introducing metric,
>> these problems wouldn't arise. :-)

>>> I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though
>>> I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch
>>> was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done
>>> that last one myself).

>> I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of.
> I don't have any specific incidents at hand.  I've got a hardcopy file
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> because engineers (manually) decided there was enough fuel by using a
> conversion factor that assumed different units than they did...

Bad memory -- the "Gimli Glider" is probably the most famous example
*of* serious trouble caused entirely by conversion to metric.  I'll
post a separate followup with details.

> somthing that crashed because its height-above-ground alarm level was
> specified assuming thousands of feet rather than feet ...

That one I haven't heard of.

> and an incident involving cancer-treatment radiation equipment.

If you're talking about the lethal malfunctions of the Therac 25,
they had nothing to do with any confusion of measurements.

The machine had two modes of operation: it could directly irradiate
the patient with an electron beam, or it could turn the power way up,
interpose a target between the beam and the patient, and so irradiate
the patient with X-rays.  Thus changing modes required changing two
things -- the target being in or out of the line, and the beam power.
Unfortunately, if the operator selected one mode and then backspaced
and corrected it to the other mode, sometimes it would set one thing
one way and the other thing the other way.

Of course, you may have been thinking of something else altogether.

And you have just reminded me of a case in 2006 where a patient died
because of a confusion between hours and days, which therefore could
go on your list.  An infusion pump was loaded with fluorouracil, a
chemotherapy drug, at set to deliver it at 28.8 milliliters per hour.
This was a plausible rate for some other drugs, but the correct amount
in this case was 28.8 milliliters per *day*.

See <http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/24.66.html#subj3>.  (The links in
that posting no longer work, but the CBC News story is available at
<http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/05/08/chemotherapy-report.html>
and the link from that page to the report in PDF still works.)

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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 07:15 GMT
Mark Brader:
> Bad memory -- the "Gimli Glider" is probably the most famous example
> *of* serious trouble caused entirely by conversion to metric.  I'll
> post a separate followup with details.

(Repeating an old posting of mine from another newsgroup.  The original
context, the "this" in the first sentence, was discussion of an airliner
being glided to a landing after all engines failed.)

The most famous case of this has to be that of Air Canada flight 143
on 1983-07-23.  Due to a series of errors[1] the plane ran out of
fuel at cruising altitude.  Unfortunately, the book I'm consulting
for details[2] is written with more attention to sensationalism[3]
than to straightforward presentation, and some of the numbers presented
don't make sense in conjunction with each other[4].

In any case, the pilot first tried to divert to Winnipeg, then as it
became clear that this wouldn't work, turned to the small town of Gimli
where an abandoned air base was still in use as a general aviation
airport[5], and landed there more or less safely[6].  The total glide
was at least 45 miles and maybe as much as 80 miles, depending on how
the book is interpretd.  And at the end, the pilot had altitude to
spare and sideslipped the plane to lose it.  Not all that much like
a rock!  (Now if you were talking about the Space Shuttle...)

As well as the main generators on the engines, the plane included an
"auxiliary power unit" which burned its own fuel from the main supply,
but this was useless since there was no fuel.  However, it was also
provided with a "ram air turbine" which could be lowered from one
of the wings -- basically a windmill, a 4-foot ducted propeller
powered by the plane's motion relative to the air.  This is what
they depended on for electrical power, and limited hydraulic power,
for the unpowered descent.  (It couldn't operate some components such
as the flaps, though.)

The pilot, Bob Pearson, was initially disciplined for mistake 2, but
a subsequent inquiry felt that blame was so widely divisible that he
was more to be praised for avoiding a disaster.

[1] The plane's fuel monitoring was dependent on two communication
channels.  If one failed, the other would take over automatically.
Due to a badly soldered joint, one channel failed *partially* and this
was not sufficient for the other to kick in.  So the fuel gauges were
inoperative unless the bad channel was disabled at the circuit breaker.
One mechanic identified the symptom, opened the breaker, and left
it marked "inop(erative)".  Another mechanic, trying to diagnose the
actual problem, closed the breaker again.  He didn't locate it and,
since his tests showed the other channel was working, he naturally
assumed the gauges would work from it and didn't trouble to reopen
the breaker: mistake 1.

It was permissible to fly with only one channel in the system working,
so the mechanics declared the plane usable.  It was not permissible
to fly without gauges working, so the pilot declared it unusable.
However, when informed that the mechanics had declared it usable, he
believed them.  Mistake 2.  Note that the aircraft did include a fuel
computer which, if told initially how much fuel was in the tanks, could
report how much should be left, even with no actual gauges working.

The tanks then had to be fueled to a known quantity, which was
measured by volume.  However, the mass of the fuel is what really
matters, and since the density varies by temperature, a conversion
is required.  The plane was a Boeing 767, the first model used by
Air Canada where the mass is measured in kilograms[7].  The ground
crew inadvertently supplied a density figure in pounds per liter,
and as everyone was still more used to this, they failed to notice.
(The habit of speaking in pure numbers without units must have been
a contributing factor.)  Everyone trusted the calculcations, and
the plane set out with 21,700 pounds of fuel instead of 21,700 kg.
Mistake 3.

[2] "Freefall" by William Hoffer and Marilyn Mona Hoffer (1989,
St. Martin's Press, New York, ISBN 0-312-02919-5).

[3] Examples: "Looking around, she realized there were no atheists on
Flight 143."  And: "It began to oscillate, shaking and bouncing and
rattling.  He braced himself for the moment of impact, and his silent,
lonely prayer continued.  Oh my God, please help me, please help me.
Get me through this, God, please God, no."

[4] They say the initial indication of a problem was at 41,000 feet
and 120+ miles from Winnipeg, whereupon the pilot turned for Winnipeg
almost immediately; and that the fuel actually ran out at 28,000 feet,
still 100+ miles from Winnipeg; and that "anxious seconds later"
(but several chapters away in the back-and-forth presentation of
the book) they were at 22,000 feet, and apparently at the same time,
65 miles from Winnipeg and 45 from Gimli.  Later they are at 9,400
feet and 39 miles from Winnipeg, and can be projected to fall 10-12
miles short.  They then divert in a 180 degree right turn to Gimli,
then 12 miles away.  These numbers do not go together.

[5] Unfortunately, the air base had had two parallel runways, only one
of which was still in use.  The pilot misunderstood the landmarks and
landed on the wrong runway, which had been converted to a racetrack
and now, the racing day being over, had children cycling on it and
families barbecuing nearby!  Fortunately, everyone who needed to get
out of the way did so.

[6] When the landing gear was lowered by gravity, the nose wheel didn't
lock, and there wasn't time to do anything about it.  The nose dragged
along the strip and started a small fire.  The aircraft was evacuated
through the slides, but this was difficult because the tail was too
high, and some injuries resulted.

[7] Some would add the fact of conversion to the list of mistakes.

Added in reposting: in 1995 there was a TV-movie about the incident.
Many identifying details were changed, including the flight number,
which they then proceeded to use in the title: "Falling from the Sky:
Flight 174", also known as just "Flight 174".)
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Nick - 08 Jun 2009 07:26 GMT
> I don't have any specific incidents at hand.  I've got a hardcopy file
> at work somewhere, mostly of programmatic approaches people had come
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> and an incident involving cancer-treatment radiation equipment.  I
> wish my memory was better.

There was a case of a plane crash that was believed to be because the
same display was used for two different features - angle of descent and
rate of descent in 1000s of units - or something like that, without a
clear indication of which was which.  That sounds like poor display of
units rather than confusion.

There've been a good few cases of tired medical staff injecting people
with large overdoses of drugs.  I can't remember details and my
Googlefu's not good enough to avoid being swamped by Heath Ledger and
Anna Nicole Smith.
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Robin Bignall - 08 Jun 2009 21:40 GMT
>> I don't have any specific incidents at hand.  I've got a hardcopy file
>> at work somewhere, mostly of programmatic approaches people had come
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Googlefu's not good enough to avoid being swamped by Heath Ledger and
>Anna Nicole Smith.

A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many
times over the past few years.  Recently she needed a scan of some
kind and was prepped, but the scan never happened.  The consultant
came round, told her that her results looked good and was astonished
when she told him she was still waiting.  It transpired that there was
another Pat Smith on the ward, more or less her age and general
description, in hospital for something else entirely.  Just imagine
what might have happened if it had been a major operation rather than
a scan.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 22:51 GMT
> A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many
> times over the past few years.  Recently she needed a scan of some
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> what might have happened if it had been a major operation rather than
> a scan.

In the US, it's standard for the patient, before any procedure
(including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate,
to help guard against this kind of mistake.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 Jun 2009 00:24 GMT
>> A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many
>> times over the past few years.  Recently she needed a scan of some
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>(including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate,
>to help guard against this kind of mistake.

During my dealings with hospitals in this corner of the UK last year
that seemed to be routine.

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 09 Jun 2009 08:35 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:

> In the US, it's standard for the patient, before any procedure
> (including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate,
> to help guard against this kind of mistake.

In Denmark, it is standard to be asked your civil registration number,
which is effectively the birthdate with four added digits. When I
underwent surgery recently, I was asked to repeat my name and number
about two minutes before the anaesthetic was administered.

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Robin Bignall - 09 Jun 2009 21:35 GMT
>> A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many
>> times over the past few years.  Recently she needed a scan of some
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>(including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate,
>to help guard against this kind of mistake.

It's standard here, too.  A week last Wednesday I had to go to A&E for
some hours and a name / birth date tag was fastened round my wrist. (I
had a fun follow-up day today learning how to self-catheterise.)

But things seem to slip in the NHS.  The Times ran an article
yesterday stating that despite its potential virulence, few hospitals
are routinely testing patients with serious chest infections for Swine
Flu.

Back in 1998, the NHS hospital that did me so much damage seemed to
have no mechanism for checking that a patient who was booked in for
major elective surgery was actually fit enough to have the operation.
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Herts, England

John Kane - 09 Jun 2009 14:27 GMT
> On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 07:26:37 +0100, Nick
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> what might have happened if it had been a major operation rather than
> a scan.

Not that uncommon I understand.  A cousin of mine ( Mr Y) was in the
hospital for something like a cyst removal.  He was being prepped for
surgury and realised something was wrong when he was addressed as Mr.
Y.  He discovered that he, as Mr Y was scheduled for a circumcision.

I've also heard of one man who was wheeled into the operating room for
a hysterectomy.

John Kane Kingston ON  Canada

When
Mark Brader - 09 Jun 2009 15:19 GMT
John Kane:
> Not that uncommon I understand.  A cousin of mine ( Mr Y) was in the
> hospital for something like a cyst removal.  He was being prepped for
> surgury and realised something was wrong when he was addressed as Mr.
> Y.  ...

The medical staff pronounced "Mr" and "Mr." differently, then? :-)
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John Kane - 10 Jun 2009 14:49 GMT
> John Kane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The medical staff pronounced "Mr" and "Mr." differently, then? :-)

Damn typing gremlins.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 20:47 GMT
>  Not that uncommon I understand.  A cousin of mine ( Mr Y) was in the
> hospital for something like a cyst removal.  He was being prepped for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've also heard of one man who was wheeled into the operating room for
> a hysterectomy.

Might stop him becoming hysterical, I suppose.

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somewhere near Munich

Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 16:28 GMT
> Nick Spalding:
>>> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of.

Oh, and there was this time a woman was in Mrs. Fields' and asked them
if she could get a copy of the recipe ....

Evan "or was that the red velvet cake at the Waldorf?" Kirshenbaum
Jerry Friedman - 09 Jun 2009 04:00 GMT
> Nick Spalding:
>
> >> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?
>
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
...

> > I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though
> > I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch
> > was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done
> > that last one myself).
>
> I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of.

Funny you should ask.  Just today, I got a phone call from the person
I'd hired to teach physics this summer; the first class was today.  He
said he'd been quoted a number for his pay "with no units" and had
assumed that was per month.  When he saw the contract this morning, he
found that that number was for the two-month course.  He gave the
first lecture but decided not to teach the course.

Well, it seemed like a mishap at the time.  To my great surprise, the
first person I called agreed to continue the class starting tomorrow.
I stated the pay quite carefully.

--
Jerry Friedman
Murray Arnow - 09 Jun 2009 14:05 GMT
>> Nick Spalding:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>first person I called agreed to continue the class starting tomorrow.
>I stated the pay quite carefully.

There you have it, well, maybe. Nobody seems too concerned that all the
so-called metric systems are really mixed systems. Time has always been
measured non-decimally, and this has caused very few problems. Talk
about confusion: think about a changeover to a decimal year.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:48 GMT
>>> Nick Spalding:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>measured non-decimally, and this has caused very few problems. Talk
>about confusion: think about a changeover to a decimal year.

For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)

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Murray Arnow - 10 Jun 2009 01:17 GMT
>For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)

Temperature is metric, in the sense we've been talking metric here. The
scales are divided decimally. There isn't any thing like 60 minutes
equals one hour in temperature measurements. Temperature scales may have
different metrics (that's mathematically) and different origins, but
they all are universally divided into factors of ten.
Hatunen - 10 Jun 2009 01:37 GMT
>>For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)
>
>Temperature is metric, in the sense we've been talking metric here.

Only because soomeone says so.

>The scales are divided decimally.

So are Fahrenheit scales.

>There isn't any thing like 60 minutes
>equals one hour in temperature measurements. Temperature scales may have
>different metrics (that's mathematically) and different origins, but
>they all are universally divided into factors of ten.

Then your claim is that the Fahrenheit and Rankine scales are
also metric. But I see nothing in the word "metric" that means
decimals.

In fact, the SI would work just as well had it established
Fahreneheit/Rankine as the scale for temperature, allowing for
adjustments in pertinent definitions.

There's always the Potrezebie System...

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 10 Jun 2009 08:15 GMT
Murray Arnow skrev:
>> For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)

> Temperature is metric, in the sense we've been talking metric here. The
> scales are divided decimally.

That is a very weak sense of metric. "No one" would use millidegrees or
kilodegrees centigrade or Fahrenheit. When it comes to using metric
prefixes, only kelvin fits the bill.

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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:10 GMT
>>For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> different metrics (that's mathematically) and different origins, but
> they all are universally divided into factors of ten.

It's not all that hard to Google up a (historical) use of minutes to divide
degrees of temperature:

"Thus, as observed by Von Humboldt in his ' Aspects of Nature,' ' the
temperature of the Pacific on the coast near Lima is sixty degrees two
minutes Fahrenheit, while in the same latitude out of the current it is
seventy- nine degrees two minutes Fahrenheit."
(The Knickerbocker; or, New York Monthly Magazine, September 1850, p. 209)

http://books.google.com/books?id=3xEAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=%22minutes+f
ahrenheit%22&source=bl&ots=uZNs5H0Lbi&sig=TGtcOPUj
_-
VLWE8AOTi4EbveoTM&hl=en&ei=9oEwSruhMoKEtwe-
wZzcBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA209,M1

Hm, better make it this:

http://tinyurl.com/md2czv

And I bet minutes of temperature are divided into seconds (if they could
measure that precisely in the mid-19th century).

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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 08:59 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> Skitt  wrote  on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:50:20 -0700:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>You know, it's funny.  The simple conversion factors between units is
>supposed to be one of the great advantages of the metric system,

"Supposed to be"? You doubt it?

>but I
>see this confusion between cm and mm all the time.  (I think we've
>seen it at least twice in this thread.)  I can't recall seeing a
>similar confusion between feet and inches or pounds and ounces.

Surely that's because you mainly come across people who are familiar
with feet and inches, and unfamiliar with mm and cm. Believe me, there
are plenty of people in continental Europe who are just as inept in feet
and inches.

>I'm
>starting to wonder whether the fact that the numbers appear so similar
>actually contributes to the likelihood of making this particular
>error.

As someone who was brought up in Imperial measure and is now pretty-much
fully metricated, can I offer some additional explanation?

In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor was
25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4. Also "everyone" knew that for small distances
you use cm. So the first thought was that an inch was 25.4 cm.

In fact, in the modern UK and AFAIK in many other countries, for small
distances where we previously used inches, we now use mm, not cm. Those
familiar with the metric system are used to dealing in mm or cm or m
depending on the scale of the job in hand, just we were used to dealing
in in or ft or mi. But there is an added tendency in metric to use whole
numbers, avoiding fractions and decimals. Additionally, km/m/mm make a
uniformly graduated scale which has a lot of appeal. So contrary to our
first impressions, cm are not used that much, compared to mm. For jobs
on an inch-and-fractions scale, mm are the natural choice, not cm. Hence
"25.4 mm to the inch" not "2.54 cm to the inch".

But the average American hasn't reached that stage yet, and seems to
gravitate towards cm at the drop of a hat[*], and still has that 25.4
figure lodged somewhere in his memory. Hence, and I quote from above,
"25.4 centimeters".

[*] Irritatingly, for many years Microsoft Word offered to work in
inches, points, pica, or cm, but *not* mm.

And when you start with that incorrect conversion factor, the conversion
result comes out wrong by a factor of ten, and you haven't got the
instinct to spot the mistake. When I first "went metric", that sort of
mistake happened all the time. My instinct is now very much better
developed, and I don't make factor-of-ten errors. I'm still not
metricated enough to instantly spot such errors made by others, though.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 16:59 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> "Supposed to be"? You doubt it?

For everyday metrology, certainly.  But that's neither here nor there,
and we've been over this before.

>>but I see this confusion between cm and mm all the time.  (I think
>>we've seen it at least twice in this thread.)  I can't recall seeing
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there are plenty of people in continental Europe who are just as
> inept in feet and inches.

I'm pretty sure I've seen these slips from Brits and Continental
Europeans, as well.  (And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide
sidewalk that appeared recently in this thread wasn't by an American.)

And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that a
meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches.  No 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch-
high ceilings.  (Confusing 8' and 8" is another story, but that's a
matter of not remembering which symbol goes with which unit.)

>>I'm starting to wonder whether the fact that the numbers appear so
>>similar actually contributes to the likelihood of making this
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor was
> 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4.

Speaking as an American, 2.54 is the conversion factor that I was
taught and that sticks in my head.  I have to actively convert to 25.4
for mm.

> Also "everyone" knew that for small distances you use cm. So the
> first thought was that an inch was 25.4 cm.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> But the average American hasn't reached that stage yet, and seems to
> gravitate towards cm at the drop of a hat[*],

That's probably because our rulers and tape measures, at least since I
was a child in the late '60s, have tended to be marked in cm down one
side.  Are British rulers marked in millimeters?

And also because that's what we tend to come across in bilingual (and
simply bi-systemic) packaging when the corresponding standard measure
is non-fractional inches.  If I saw, say a 54 inch fan, I'd expect it
to be marked "137 cm", not "1,372 mm".  An 18-inch-wide printer will
be "46 cm", not "457 mm".  Different in the UK?  The only time
millimeters come into play around here is for things normally
expressed in fractions of an inch, such as drill bits and bolts.

> and still has that 25.4 figure lodged somewhere in his memory.

I don't think Americans would have 25.4 lodged in their memory as the
primary conversion factor, unless that was how it was taught before I
learned it.

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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 18:05 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I'm pretty sure I've seen these slips from Brits and Continental
>Europeans, as well.

Brits I'm happy to believe (this is all still quite new to many of us),
continentals less so.

>(And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide
>sidewalk that appeared recently in this thread wasn't by an American.)

I hadn't given any thought to the nationality of that poster. I was
concerned with the population that your general impressions were based
on, which is mainly American isn't it?

>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that a
>meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches.  No 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch-
>high ceilings.  (Confusing 8' and 8" is another story, but that's a
>matter of not remembering which symbol goes with which unit.)

For that to be at all likely in any analogous sense, there would have to
be a unit that equated to ten metres or one tenth of a metre. Although
there are such units, they're not in common use, so it's not surprising
you haven't come across anyone that confused them with the metre.

>> In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor was
>> 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4.
>
>Speaking as an American, 2.54 is the conversion factor that I was
>taught and that sticks in my head.  I have to actively convert to 25.4
>for mm.

Noted, thanks.

>> In fact, in the modern UK and AFAIK in many other countries, for
>> small distances where we previously used inches, we now use mm, not
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>was a child in the late '60s, have tended to be marked in cm down one
>side.  Are British rulers marked in millimeters?

British rulers are also generally marked in cm, which is probably why
(as I remarked) the same naive preference for cm was equally prevalent
in the UK some time ago.

In practice you read off the cm and then append the last few mm. So a
British builder measuring a 894 mm doorway, would see 89 (cm) and four
ticks, and announce "894". Probably not "894 mm", because builders work
in mm all the time. And in the same you don't hear about 71-foot-tall
people or 8-inch-high ceilings, we don't hear about 89.4 mm or 8.94 m
doors.

>And also because that's what we tend to come across in bilingual (and
>simply bi-systemic) packaging when the corresponding standard measure
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>millimeters come into play around here is for things normally
>expressed in fractions of an inch, such as drill bits and bolts.

The fan seems to me to be not a measurement as such, but an indication
of a class of product. The exact measurement is not so important. And if
you were actually measuring that fan, you'd measure it as 4'6", wouldn't
you? This seems a long way from the "inches-and-fractions scale" that I
was actually talking about.

Moving on to the printer, yes, it probably would be 457 mm wide. I went
to Amazon and looked at the first printer I was offered (an HP).

       http://tinyurl.com/ojtdy6
       "Dimensions (w x d x h) Out of package: 422 x 260 x 141 mm, with
       trays up: 422 x 182 x 141 mm, Maximum: 422 x 316 x 141 mm,
       packaged: 472 x 228 x 190 mm"

That's not to say that cm aren't to be found, but mm are more usual in
my experience. You're more likely to find cm with measurements where
precision is not so important - furniture, say, even some printers I
would think - and whole cm would be the order of the day. As soon as the
situation starts to demand cm and decimals, mm become more likely.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 18:42 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Brits I'm happy to believe (this is all still quite new to many of
> us), continentals less so.

How many decades does it have to be before it ceases to be "quite
new"?  

>>(And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide sidewalk that appeared
>>recently in this thread wasn't by an American.)
>
> I hadn't given any thought to the nationality of that poster. I was
> concerned with the population that your general impressions were
> based on, which is mainly American isn't it?

I see it mostly on-line, so it's hard to be sure.

>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that
>>a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches.  No 71-foot-tall people or
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> it's not surprising you haven't come across anyone that confused
> them with the metre.

I'm not sure I see your point.  If it's reasonable for people unused
to the metric system to be unsure whether there are 2.54 or 25.4 cm in
an inch, why isn't it similarly likely for people unused to the
American system to be unsure whether there are 3.3 or 39 feet in a
meter?

But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
named units that are so small and so close together.

>>> In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor
>>> was 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> a British builder measuring a 894 mm doorway, would see 89 (cm) and
> four ticks, and announce "894".

Ah.  An American working in centimeters (which we would if that was
what the spec called for) would announce "eighty-nine four".  At that
precision 890 mm would be "eighty-nine even".  Indeed, even if the
spec was in millimeters, I suspect that I'd read off the measurements
as if I were measuring centimeters.

As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"?  For me, a "doorway" has
connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches
seems a bit small.  Were you thinking of a cabinet?  That wouldn't be
a "doorway" here, I don't think.

> Probably not "894 mm", because builders work in mm all the time. And
> in the same you don't hear about 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch-high
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> indication of a class of product. The exact measurement is not so
> important.

Actually, the box I looked at was for a ceiling fan, and it's the
diameter of the circle the blades make.  True, there's less of a "will
it fit in the space" notion, but it refers to a size that will be
quite visible.

> And if you were actually measuring that fan, you'd measure it as
> 4'6", wouldn't you?

Not at all.  I'd measure it as 54".  Which is also 4'6", of course,
but I probably wouldn't do the (simple) conversion unless I needed to
compare it against something similarly measured in feet and inches.
Similarly, in the discussion we had here about American appliances not
fitting in British kitchens, the standards for the appliances (and
cutouts) are 30", 32", and 36", not 2'6", 2'8", and 3'.  If I'm using
a tape measure, up to at least about eight feet, I'm going to read off
the number in inches.

> This seems a long way from the "inches-and-fractions scale" that I
> was actually talking about.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>         trays up: 422 x 182 x 141 mm, Maximum: 422 x 316 x 141 mm,
>         packaged: 472 x 228 x 190 mm"

Noted.  The same shows up on the HP site.  I'm surprised, but looking
at other products, that appears to be our standard.

> That's not to say that cm aren't to be found, but mm are more usual
> in my experience. You're more likely to find cm with measurements
> where precision is not so important - furniture, say, even some
> printers I would think - and whole cm would be the order of the
> day. As soon as the situation starts to demand cm and decimals, mm
> become more likely.

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Nick - 05 Jun 2009 20:50 GMT
> But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
> named units that are so small and so close together.

Related to this, it's the absence of anything around a foot that I find
the greatest gap in the system.  A pound similarly though less
dramatically.

Feet and poundss are the sort of thing you can feel.  The metric system
would have been far better to have put the baseline somewhere else, but
even so, the scaling factor between units of the same type (unless you
use all those frightfully confusing decis and decas and hectis and
hectos or hectas or whatever) is, at 1000 (100 if you're lucky) just
far, far too large for people sized things.

I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just find it terribly inconvenient
in everyday life.
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Robin Bignall - 05 Jun 2009 21:57 GMT
>> But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
>> named units that are so small and so close together.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just find it terribly inconvenient
>in everyday life.

Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time.  How much time,
as Evan asked?  I don't know.  Studying physics, I had to start
thinking "metric" in my middle teens, but using it routinely in real
life took decades.  I'm about 2/3 of the way through having a new
kitchen installed (difficult bits which contain sink and hob come on
Monday), and all measurements are in mm, even "large" ones such as
1000 mm cupboards, rather than 100 cm.  Incidentally, the several
rulers and tape measures that the installer and I have between us are
all calibrated in inches one side and cm/mm on the other.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 22:35 GMT
> Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time.  How much
> time, as Evan asked?  I don't know.  Studying physics, I had to
> start thinking "metric" in my middle teens,

Much the same in the US.  We first started using "meter sticks",
rather than yardsticks, in science class when I was probably in sixth
or seventh grade, in the mid/late '70s.  Essentially all science was
(and is) done in metric units.  If you had to make sense of the answer
when you were done, you converted it back to the units you were used
to.  But typically, it didn't matter all that much.

The exception was the internalization that light travels at (just
under) a foot a nanosecond.  That visualization became important when
dealing with systems that had nanosecond-level synchronization
requirements, and so cable lengths in

> but using it routinely in real life took decades.  I'm about 2/3 of
> the way through having a new kitchen installed (difficult bits which
> contain sink and hob come on Monday), and all measurements are in
> mm, even "large" ones such as 1000 mm cupboards, rather than 100 cm.

Or even 1 m.

> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the
> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one
> side and cm/mm on the other.

Thanks.  I was under the impression from earlier discussions that the
US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both
scales.

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 23:53 GMT
Robin Bignall:
>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the
>> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one
>> side and cm/mm on the other.

Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Thanks.  I was under the impression from earlier discussions that
> the US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both
> scales.

The rulers I first used as a schoolchild in the 1960s in Canada were
marked in inches and centimeters, and today this is still common
but not universal.  I happen to have two tape measures right here;
one of them is one that I bought, probably in the 1980s or early 1990s,
and is also marked in both systems; but I remember that not all of the
ones in the store were.  I haven't looked in recent years to see if
things have changed.

Incidentally, on the outside the length of this tape measure is marked
as "26'/8m" [sic, no space], but it actually has no markings in feet
or meters, just inches and centimeters.  The inch scale ends at 312,
which aligns with 792.5 cm on the other scale.  The absence of "feet"
markings is actually a bit annoying for longer measurements, where feet
are likely to provide sufficient accuracy and I'd rather see "23 feet"
than "276 inches".  Metric is easier in this respect, of course.

(The other tape measure is the same brand and has the same style of
markings.)
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Nick - 06 Jun 2009 08:39 GMT
>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the
>> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both
> scales.

Absolutely standard in the UK.  I'd be really surprised to find one that
didn't have either.

Sometimes, if I just need to remember and transfer measurements from
one thing to another, I'll use whichever scale they hit the tidiest
value on, or whichever way round is easiest to line up.
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Mike Barnes - 06 Jun 2009 10:09 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:

>>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the
>>> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Absolutely standard in the UK.  I'd be really surprised to find one that
>didn't have either.

Prepare to be surprised. All my tape measures are UK-sourced and marked
in cm only, except one with inches as well that I keep for occasional
conversions.

The tape measure in my desk drawer is a Fisco Uni-Matic, 3m, marked only
in cm, Made in England. I've several others, of various lengths and
brands, all cm-only.

https://www.jaydons.co.uk/d-i-y-3/hand-tools-12/measure-level-187/fisco-
unimatic-ii-tape-2033.htm
http://tinyurl.com/kjuepg

Single-scale rulers are convenient because you can use them left- or
right-handed, whichever is better for the job in hand.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jun 2009 15:40 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>Single-scale rulers are convenient because you can use them left- or
>right-handed, whichever is better for the job in hand.

I have one of these 30m fibreglass tapes.
http://tinyurl.com/l4famk

It has metric on one side of the tape and feet and inches on the other
(obverse and reverse).
http://www.peterduncanson.net/images/30mTape%20lores.jpg

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(in alt.usage.english)

Robert Bannister - 07 Jun 2009 00:26 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Single-scale rulers are convenient because you can use them left- or
> right-handed, whichever is better for the job in hand.

I seem to remember years ago when I was at school... OK, make that
decades ago... our rulers had inches on one side and centimetres on the
other. Each edge of the inches side had different fractions of an inch -
I think tenths for one and eighths for the other. Can't remember about
the metric side, but it might have been plain centimetres for one edge
(not very useful) and millimetres for the other.

Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Sara Lorimer - 07 Jun 2009 21:27 GMT
> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.

"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught
with one?

Signature

SML

Robin Bignall - 07 Jun 2009 21:38 GMT
>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
>> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.
>
>"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught
>with one?

You lost your feet.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:17 GMT
>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>You lost your feet.

One inch at a time?

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  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 04:40 GMT
>>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but
>>>> they were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> One inch at a time?

It's a game of centimeters.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Wood Avens - 07 Jun 2009 21:38 GMT
>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
>> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.
>
>"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught
>with one?

Doubtless all sorts of punishments were meted out.  Being hanged from
the yard-arm, for instance.  

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Mike Page - 07 Jun 2009 22:44 GMT
>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Doubtless all sorts of punishments were meted out.  Being hanged from
> the yard-arm, for instance.  

Detention?

Decimation?

Lashes with the cat o' ten tails?

Signature

Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.

Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:19 GMT
>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
>> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.
>
> "Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught
> with one?

Can't remember, but I assume there was a fine - not for possession, but
for manufacture.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jun 2009 04:44 GMT
>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Can't remember, but I assume there was a fine - not for possession, but
> for manufacture.

The phrase "flourishing black market in imperial rulers" has a certain ring
to it, innit.

Signature

Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jun 2009 10:03 GMT
>>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>>>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>The phrase "flourishing black market in imperial rulers" has a certain ring
>to it, innit.

"Up with local democracy. Down with Imperial Rulers."

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

John Kane - 08 Jun 2009 15:22 GMT
> >>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
> >>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --
> Roland Hutchinson              

50,000 sesterces bid for Nero (musical instruments not included).

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Richard Bollard - 09 Jun 2009 03:52 GMT
>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
>> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.
>
>"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught
>with one?

It sounds extreme to me too. I seem to recall that a new rule would be
marked in metric only but I was never aware of any ban, just a
perceived lack of demand. Anyone who grew up with an awareness of
inches would naturally prefer to have both scales on a rule. It seems
completely redundant to have the same information on both sides, but
maybe not for people who want to measure from both ends without
flipping the rule to do so.

A rule lasts an awfully long time so mixed measures still abound. Most
tape measures I have seen bear both scales.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

R H Draney - 09 Jun 2009 04:30 GMT
Richard Bollard filted:

>It sounds extreme to me too. I seem to recall that a new rule would be
>marked in metric only but I was never aware of any ban, just a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>A rule lasts an awfully long time so mixed measures still abound. Most
>tape measures I have seen bear both scales.

I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular cross-sections, with
each of the six edges marked in different scales...there were inches in tenths,
twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of those, and one
in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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tony cooper - 09 Jun 2009 05:11 GMT
>Richard Bollard filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of those, and one
>in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r

Remember them?  I have one in my desk drawer.  No tenths, though.  1
1/2", 3/32", 1/8", 3/38, 1/2", and 1" with submultiples.  Made by
Dietzgen.

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Skitt - 09 Jun 2009 18:42 GMT
>> I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular
>> cross-sections, with each of the six edges marked in different
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 1/2", 3/32", 1/8", 3/38, 1/2", and 1" with submultiples.  Made by
> Dietzgen.

I have a wooden one and a plastic-set-in-metal one.  Haven't used either one
in yonks, though.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 09:59 GMT
In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular cross-sections, with
>each of the six edges marked in different scales...there were inches in tenths,
>twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of
>those, and one
>in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r

I still use a triangular scale like that, but designed for reading
distances directly from drawings at various scales - from 1:1 to 1:2500
(300 mm to 745 m). It also works for scales outside that range, so for
example I can measure on a 1:50000 map (a popular leisure map size here
in the UK) using the 1:50 scale, and read off the result as km instead
of m.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

R H Draney - 09 Jun 2009 10:19 GMT
Mike Barnes filted:

>In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>>I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular cross-sections, with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>in the UK) using the 1:50 scale, and read off the result as km instead
>of m.

And so the Pondial differences continue...the preferred scale back when I was
doing orienteering was 1:62500, which in the field is as near
an-inch-equals-a-mile as makes no difference....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 10:37 GMT
In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>Mike Barnes filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>doing orienteering was 1:62500, which in the field is as near
>an-inch-equals-a-mile as makes no difference....r

The predecessor of our current 1:50k map series was similar at 1:63360,
exactly one inch to the mile. From what I can make out the changeover
period was approximately 1974 to 1987. Some old-timers refer to the
1:50k maps as "one inch" maps, and the 1:25k maps as "two and a half
inch maps".

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 23:14 GMT
>And so the Pondial differences continue...the preferred scale back when I was
>doing orienteering was 1:62500, which in the field is as near
>an-inch-equals-a-mile as makes no difference....r

Those were the maps covering a "square" 15 minutes of longitude
and latitude. New maps, from about the latter 1960s on were 7.5
minute maps and were at a scale of 1:24000.

The Army used maps at scales of 1:25000 and 1:50000. Somewhere
here I have a map of Fort Knox that accidentally followed me home
when I was released from the Army in the 1960s, and I believe it
is at 1:25000, but I can't seem to find it easily at the moment.

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  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Mike Lyle - 09 Jun 2009 23:16 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>> I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> leisure map size here in the UK) using the 1:50 scale, and read off
> the result as km instead of m.

Somebody seems to have swiped my scale rule, but I've got another nice
ruler which might well be a century and a half old, but in poor
condition. Made by W.E.Pain of Cambridge, the numerous very precise
scales on its boxwood show things like 145 sixteenths of an inch and 4
times an inch and three-quarters; there are a couple of small patches of
64ths.

Signature

Mike.

Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 23:01 GMT
>Richard Bollard filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of those, and one
>in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r

I still have several triangular scales, one of them metric. The
scales are marked in, well, scales, the primary scale being
1:100. The numbers indicate meters, but they are a centimeter
apart. It also has scales at 1:200, 1:400, 1:250, 1:300 and
1:500. The plastic box that came with it says it is for
archtects. I'm not familiar with metric architectural drawings,
but I presume those are common scales used. I bought it decades
ago, but I'm finding it useful with the feds' new topo maps,
which are metric.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:18 GMT
>>Richard Bollard filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> ago, but I'm finding it useful with the feds' new topo maps,
> which are metric.

I remember that every well-stocked drugstore used to carry among its school
supplies both "architect's rules" of that sort and "engineer's rules" with a
somewhat different selection of scales.

If I recall correctly, the architect's rule scales were ruled for reading
distances so-many feet to the inch (so not exactly the same as the metric
version described above), while the engineer's scales may have been ruled in
other sorts of round-number relationships not necessarily relating feet and
inches (such as 100:1 or the like).

Signature

Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Skitt - 11 Jun 2009 18:09 GMT
>>> Richard Bollard filted:

>>>> It sounds extreme to me too. I seem to recall that a new rule
>>>> would be marked in metric only but I was never aware of any ban,
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> may have been ruled in other sorts of round-number relationships not
> necessarily relating feet and inches (such as 100:1 or the like).

When I was working as a grade checker on highway construction (during
college summer vacations), for elevations we worked in feet and tenths of
feet, not inches.  I used a measuring stick I made myself and a small hand
level.  This was for sub-grade, of course.  The signals I flashed the grader
operator (bladesman) were also signifying tenths of an inch.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 18:14 GMT
>I remember that every well-stocked drugstore used to carry among its school
>supplies both "architect's rules" of that sort and "engineer's rules" with a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>other sorts of round-number relationships not necessarily relating feet and
>inches (such as 100:1 or the like).

I have an American architect's triangular scale in front of me.
It is marked in scales like "1 1/2", which means that on that
scale 1.5 inches equals a foot, in other words a scale of 1:8.
The scales are designed to be able to measure feet and inches,
say 2ft-3 1/2 inches.

Signature

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 10:00 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:
>Anyone who grew up with an awareness of
>inches would naturally prefer to have both scales on a rule.

Most people might - I don't.

>It seems
>completely redundant to have the same information on both sides, but
>maybe not for people who want to measure from both ends without
>flipping the rule to do so.

Exactly. Also a single-unit measure can have larger numbers, making it
easier to read. Assuming you meant the same information on both edges
rather than both sides.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Richard Bollard - 10 Jun 2009 23:41 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:
>>Anyone who grew up with an awareness of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>easier to read. Assuming you meant the same information on both edges
>rather than both sides.

Is an edge not a side?

For some reason this reminds me of a nice usage by Australia Post in
their definitions of large and normal letters. They define a normal
letter as oblong but a large letter as rectangular. The distinction,
it turns out, is to define anything that is, for example, square as a
"large" letter even if it has a smaller are than a normal letter.
Normal letters must be oblong and the square root of two gets into the
ratio of the sides. These are cheaper even if they are larger than a
square "large" letter (say a gift card).

WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong. Now
I know different.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Mike Barnes - 11 Jun 2009 07:58 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:

>>In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:
>>>Anyone who grew up with an awareness of
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Is an edge not a side?

You can see both edges at once, but to see the other side, you have to
turn the rule over (or bend it).

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Richard Bollard - 12 Jun 2009 04:00 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>You can see both edges at once, but to see the other side, you have to
>turn the rule over (or bend it).

Fair enough. Many of mine are transparent (I used them to get one
across my father).
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Jerry Friedman - 12 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT
...

> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong.

WIWAK I was confused by the word "oblong", which grown-ups used as if
everyone would know it.  It seemed to mean "rectangle" or "oval".

--
Jerry Friedman
the Omrud - 12 Jun 2009 08:23 GMT
> ....
>
>> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong.
>
> WIWAK I was confused by the word "oblong", which grown-ups used as if
> everyone would know it.  It seemed to mean "rectangle" or "oval".

Rectangle; never oval in BrE.

Signature

David

James Hogg - 12 Jun 2009 09:21 GMT
Quoth the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com>, and I quote:

>> ....
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Rectangle; never oval in BrE.

I have always thought of oblong as being rectangular, but now I
realise that it can occasionally mean oval. OED defines it as:

"Elongated (usually as a deviation from an exact square or
circular form); esp. rectangular with the adjacent sides
unequal."

Oliver Goldsmith could write of an oblong egg, and the most
recent quotation is from 2001, "This large, oblong fruit has a
tough, green exterior". It doesn't say what this Caribbean fruit
is, but I bet it's not rectangular. Botanists also describe
leaves as oblong.

I have just had this problem in a translation. The Swedish
counterpart "avlång" occurs in 18th-century explanations of why
some substances are more fluid than others. It's because they
consist of round particles which roll more easily than "avlång"
ones. I won't translate it as "oblong", though.

Signature

James

R H Draney - 12 Jun 2009 11:16 GMT
James Hogg filted:

>Quoth the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com>, and I quote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>circular form); esp. rectangular with the adjacent sides
>unequal."

I've also encountered it used to describe a rectangle with rounded-off corners;
the "bubtangle" of Ed Yourdon's DFDs....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
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Mark Brader - 12 Jun 2009 19:27 GMT
Richard Bollard:
>>>> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong.

Jerry Friedman:
>>> WIWAK I was confused by the word "oblong", which grown-ups used as if
>>> everyone would know it.  It seemed to mean "rectangle" or "oval".

"David":
>> Rectangle; never oval in BrE.

James Hogg:
> I have always thought of oblong as being rectangular, but now I
> realise that it can occasionally mean oval. ...

When I was a precocious little boy who had recently immigrated from
England to Canada with my parents, I learned "oblong" as a word for
a rectangle before I learned "rectangle" with the same meaning.

I think there may have have been a period when I believed that the
difference was that a square was a kind of rectangle while an oblong
was a rectangle that was not a square, and then I decided that that
was just an artifact of the way I had learned the words and that
"oblong" was just baby-talk for "rectangle", all of this without
actual reference to a dictionary.

I then basically stopped encountering the word "oblong" at all, which
probably means my parents were the ones who had been using it and they
stopped doing so -- until, years later, I saw it being used to mean
"oval".  I was surprised.
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Toronto      |   not only with rec.puzzles, but with reality itself."
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 13 Jun 2009 12:35 GMT
> Richard Bollard:
>>>>> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> I then basically stopped encountering the word "oblong" at all,

I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
for "rectangke".

> which
> probably means my parents were the ones who had been using it and they
> stopped doing so -- until, years later, I saw it being used to mean
> "oval".  I was surprised.

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athel

Wood Avens - 13 Jun 2009 14:41 GMT
>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
>for "rectangle".

Same here.  The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird
one.

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Jun 2009 16:09 GMT
>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
>>for "rectangle".
>
>Same here.  The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird
>one.

Agreed. For some reason I got hold of the idea that some people used
oblong to mean a rectangle with rounded corners. It wasn't until I came
to AUE that came across the oval meaning and then realised that I might
have been mistaken when I understood it to mean a rectangle with rounded
corners.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Richard Bollard - 15 Jun 2009 03:58 GMT
>>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>have been mistaken when I understood it to mean a rectangle with rounded
>corners.

This is why I found the usage so interesting and looked further. To
find one source using both terms apparently so carefully was
intriguing.

I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles
and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the
sides. One term allows the square where the other doesn't.

I don't like this idea of an oval being an oblong although I suppose
it may be one with *very* rounded corners.

If you asked the young me if a square was an oblong, I'd have said "no
way". Then again, I probably would have opposed the idea of a square
being a rectangle. Now I know it is just a special case.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

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Robert Bannister - 16 Jun 2009 01:03 GMT
> I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles
> and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the
> sides. One term allows the square where the other doesn't.

I would agree with that.
Signature


Rob Bannister

Richard Bollard - 17 Jun 2009 01:23 GMT
>> I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles
>> and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the
>> sides. One term allows the square where the other doesn't.
>
>I would agree with that.

Hmmm, how did "know" get there for "now"?
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

R H Draney - 17 Jun 2009 04:32 GMT
Richard Bollard filted:

>>> I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles
>>> and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Hmmm, how did "know" get there for "now"?

It's that damn metric unit-confusion again, innit....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
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Richard Bollard - 18 Jun 2009 01:43 GMT
>Richard Bollard filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>It's that damn metric unit-confusion again, innit....r

Kno, kno a thousand times no.
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Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Earle Jones - 23 Jul 2009 05:09 GMT
*
An optimist sees the glass half full.
An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

earle
(engineer)
*
Murray Arnow - 23 Jul 2009 14:57 GMT
>*
>An optimist sees the glass half full.
>An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

A good engineer says the glass is thrice as big as it needs be.
R H Draney - 23 Jul 2009 16:54 GMT
>>*
>>An optimist sees the glass half full.
>>An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

A good systems analyst says the glass has 100% reserve capacity....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jul 2009 18:14 GMT
>>*
>>An optimist sees the glass half full.
>>An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
>>
> A good engineer says the glass is thrice as big as it needs be.

I would have thought that a good engineer would say that it was about
half again as big as it needs to be.  You have to allow some margin.

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Murray Arnow - 23 Jul 2009 18:53 GMT
>>>*
>>>An optimist sees the glass half full.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I would have thought that a good engineer would say that it was about
>half again as big as it needs to be.  You have to allow some margin.

In practice, the safety margin is usually 3. I don't know why that is the
factor, but it is fairly common.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jul 2009 05:41 GMT
>>>>*
>>>>An optimist sees the glass half full.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> In practice, the safety margin is usually 3. I don't know why that
> is the factor, but it is fairly common.

In that case, it's about a third too small.

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Roland Hutchinson - 24 Jul 2009 12:44 GMT
> >>>>*
> >>>>An optimist sees the glass half full.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> In that case, it's about a third too small.

Or it needs to be half again as large.

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... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
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Prai Jei - 23 Jul 2009 21:35 GMT
Earle Jones set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> An optimist sees the glass half full.
> An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

The binge drinker says make it a double.
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Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Ian Jackson - 13 Jun 2009 16:27 GMT
>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
>>for "rectangle".
>
>Same here.  The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird
>one.

I must admit that it has come as a bit of a surprise to me that "oblong"
means anything other than "rectangle" (or "rectangular"). I suppose it
is similar to "elongated". But of course, for a circle and a sphere, we
do have perfectly good words, such as "oval" and (I suppose "ovoid"?).
But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is that an
oblong too?
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Ian

franzi - 13 Jun 2009 20:14 GMT
On Jun 13, 4:27 pm, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <22b7355d5e3v7j5klkic5dsk4qqoqn2...@4ax.com>, Wood Avens
> <woodav...@askjennison.com> writes>On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:35:37 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> is similar to "elongated". But of course, for a circle and a sphere, we
> do have perfectly good words, such as "oval" and (I suppose "ovoid"?).

Ovoid is eggy, but not so eggy as ovate, both meaning oval with one
end pointier than the other.  Lilliputians care about this.  We also
have obovoid, in which one end is blunter than the other, but not so
much more so than in obovate.  The ob- prefix sets up a contrast.  In
eggs, the contrast is which way up they lie.

> But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is that an
> oblong too?

Oblong means having contrast due to length, and until this thread the
idea of an oblong being an oval wasn't in my head.  Strict rectitude
was called for.

On the question: all cubes are rectangular blocks, but not all
rectangular blocks are cubes.  Oblong rectangular blocks are right
parallelepipeds, if you want my opinion.

--
franzi
R H Draney - 13 Jun 2009 21:23 GMT
franzi filted:

>On Jun 13, 4:27=A0pm, Ian Jackson
><ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Ovoid is eggy, but not so eggy as ovate, both meaning oval with one
>end pointier than the other.  Lilliputians care about this.  We also
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>rectangular blocks are cubes.  Oblong rectangular blocks are right
>parallelepipeds, if you want my opinion.

ObGeometry: I vaguely recall there being a special term that distinguished
rectangular prisms with two dimensions the same and the third different from
those with all three dimensions different....r

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franzi - 13 Jun 2009 23:28 GMT
> franzi filted:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> rectangular prisms with two dimensions the same and the third different from
> those with all three dimensions different....r

In the trade, the former are square rods.

If you go shopping for any, be careful to speak clearly, or you may
come home with a bundle of stair rods.  Then you'd have spare rods,
and the risk of spoilt children to boot.
--
franzi
R H Draney - 14 Jun 2009 02:50 GMT
franzi filted:

>> ObGeometry: I vaguely recall there being a special term that distinguishe=
>d
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>come home with a bundle of stair rods.  Then you'd have spare rods,
>and the risk of spoilt children to boot.

I'd rather have spare ribs, if you don't mind....r

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Robert Bannister - 15 Jun 2009 01:12 GMT
> franzi filted:
>>> ObGeometry: I vaguely recall there being a special term that distinguishe=
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I'd rather have spare ribs, if you don't mind....r

Thinking about creating an Eve or two?

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Rob Bannister

Robert Bannister - 14 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT
>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>> it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is that an
> oblong too?

"box-shaped".

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Rob Bannister

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 14 Jun 2009 07:02 GMT
>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>> it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "ovoid"?). But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is
> that an oblong too?

I learned "cuboid" with that meaning, but I've rarely if ever heard it
outside of a geometry class.
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athel

Robin Bignall - 13 Jun 2009 21:22 GMT
>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
>>for "rectangle".
>
>Same here.  The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird
>one.

Yes, I thought that.  I think "oblong" is a word I learned when very
small, certainly long before "rectangle".
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Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Amethyst Deceiver - 14 Jun 2009 17:07 GMT
>>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Yes, I thought that.  I think "oblong" is a word I learned when very
>small, certainly long before "rectangle".

I have just asked YoungBloke (5.5yrs) what a rectangle is. He drew a
rectangle in the air. I asked him what an oblong is and he didn't
know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that
the current term is definitely rectangle.
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Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

R H Draney - 14 Jun 2009 17:31 GMT
Amethyst Deceiver filted:

>I have just asked YoungBloke (5.5yrs) what a rectangle is. He drew a
>rectangle in the air. I asked him what an oblong is and he didn't
>know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that
>the current term is definitely rectangle.

He's probably much too young to appreciate this show:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblongs

....r

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Nick - 14 Jun 2009 19:01 GMT
>>>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that
> the current term is definitely rectangle.

My (just) 6 year old said that she knew what both "oblong" and
"rectangle" meant.  When asked the difference she explained that an
oblong is like this (drew it in the air) and said it had long and
shorter sides, and that if you stretch an oblong "out like this" it
turns into a rectangle.

On being asked if that meant it was between a square and a rectangle she
agreed.  Her slightly elder sister agreed.
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tony cooper - 14 Jun 2009 19:03 GMT
>>>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
>>>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that
>the current term is definitely rectangle.

Grandsons are over, so I asked the eldest (5.5 but hasn't started
school yet because of the date of his birth).  Without hesitation he
drew a rectangle.  To "What does oblong mean?", I got a baffled shrug.

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Robert Bannister - 14 Jun 2009 00:02 GMT
> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
> it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
> for "rectangke".

I still use "oblong" too, but I take it to mean "shaped like a
rectangle"; in other words, the angles might not be exactly 90°, but
near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into
that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does.

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Rob Bannister

Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2009 08:20 GMT
Robert Bannister wrote, in <79ipgoF1p76fjU1@mid.individual.net>
on Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:02:48 +0800:

> > I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say
> > it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into
> that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does.

Indeed.  There is a lack of precision about oblong.
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Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Nick - 14 Jun 2009 13:37 GMT
>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't
>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into
> that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does.

What about a rectangle with scalloped corners?  Like this, for example:
http://fewebb.com/images/REESE.JPG
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the Omrud - 14 Jun 2009 14:29 GMT
>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't
>>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> What about a rectangle with scalloped corners?  Like this, for example:
> http://fewebb.com/images/REESE.JPG

Not for me, in either case.  Oblong *means* rectangle to me.

Signature

David

Frank ess - 14 Jun 2009 20:11 GMT
>>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I
>>>> don't say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Not for me, in either case.  Oblong *means* rectangle to me.

Rectangle is a noun, for me.

Rectangular and oblong are adjectives, in my vocabulary.

An oblongated object need not have rectangular corners.

I'd say an eclair is oblong. But not for long.

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Robert Bannister - 15 Jun 2009 01:14 GMT
>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't
>>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> What about a rectangle with scalloped corners?  Like this, for example:
> http://fewebb.com/images/REESE.JPG

I'd be happy to call that an oblong.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jun 2009 04:45 GMT
>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't
>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into
> that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does.

For me, a canonical oblong is what you get when you take a circle, cut
it in half, and insert a rectangle between the two halves.  I could
allow the curvature of the ends to be a bit shallower (squished toward
the middle), but probably not to the point of having any significant
straight section and perhaps the elongated edges being bowed out a
bit, but not to the point of being an oval.

MWCD11 says

   deviating from a square, circular, or spherical form by elongation
   in one dimension

which seems tocover both my understanding and yours.  Around here, if
I were buying tablecloths, I'd expect to choose primarily from
"circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong".  Calling a
rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle".

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R H Draney - 15 Jun 2009 04:56 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>For me, a canonical oblong is what you get when you take a circle, cut
>it in half, and insert a rectangle between the two halves.  I could
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>"circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong".  Calling a
>rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle".

Would you consider this an oblong?

 http://www.oberonplace.com/products/plotter/tutor/images/superellipse.gif

Piet Hein (of "Grooks" and Soma cubes fame) called it a superellipse...where an
ellipse has the formula (x/a)²+(y/b)²=1, the superellipse is given by
abs(x/a)^2.5+abs(y/b)^2.5=1

As the exponent increases to infinity, the equation yields a shape closer and
closer to a rectangle....r

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Mark Brader - 15 Jun 2009 07:09 GMT
R.H. Draney:
> Would you consider this an oblong?
>
>   http://www.oberonplace.com/products/plotter/tutor/images/superellipse.gif

You mean this:

   http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=59.33255,18.0652&t=k&z=18
   [Requires JavaScript enabled]
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James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 07:21 GMT
Quoth msb@vex.net (Mark Brader), and I quote:

>R.H. Draney:
>> Would you consider this an oblong?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>    http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=59.33255,18.0652&t=k&z=18
>    [Requires JavaScript enabled]

Funny, that's twice Piet Hein has come up in the past few days,
with reference to two of his inventions, the gruk and the
superellipse.

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Mark Brader - 15 Jun 2009 07:36 GMT
James Hogg:
> Funny, that's twice Piet Hein has come up in the past few days,
> with reference to two of his inventions, the gruk and the
> superellipse.

(That's "grook" in English.)
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James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 07:51 GMT
Quoth msb@vex.net (Mark Brader), and I quote:

>>>You mean this:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>(That's "grook" in English.)

Indeed it is.

I have now seen two different accounts of the origin of the
superellipse. That super-reliable source Wikipedia says:

"After Liberation, Scandinavian architects, tired of square
buildings but cognizant that circular buildings were impractical,
asked Piet Hein for a solution. Applying his mathematical prowess
to the problem, Piet Hein created the superellipse which became
the hallmark of modern Scandinavian architecture."

The other comes from David Helldén, the architect responsible for
the design of Sergels Torg in Stockholm:

"It was Christmas 1959. Piet Hein and I were sitting talking in
his Rungsted Skovhus. 'What are you working on now?' he asked.
'I'm having trouble with a curve for Sergels Torg,' I said. ...
Piet Hein was silent for a while, studied my sketch and then said
slowly: 'There must be a bend with a continuously varying curve',
and he started to write figures on a sheet of paper. In a minute
the formula was there and the 'Superellipse', as he immediately
christened it, had entered the general consciousness."

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John Holmes - 15 Jun 2009 13:15 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> As the exponent increases to infinity, the equation yields a shape
> closer and closer to a rectangle....r

I was thinking of those as well. I'd call those oblong at exponents of
about 3-4 and above, and provided that a/b is not too close to 1. That's
because they appear to have ends as well as sides, even though no part
of them is perfectly straight. But Evan's two half-circles on a
rectangle wouldn't qualify, since they don't have "ends".

For anybody who is keen to play with generalised superellipses, and who
can handle a 90MB download, there's a nice toy available at:
http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/SuperellipseShapes/

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jun 2009 14:37 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>   http://www.oberonplace.com/products/plotter/tutor/images/superellipse.gif

Yeah, that works for me.

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Mike Barnes - 15 Jun 2009 07:57 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>For me, a canonical oblong is what you get when you take a circle, cut
>it in half, and insert a rectangle between the two halves.

A running track?

For me (and many Brits, I think) that isn't an oblong. An oblong is the
shape of a sheet of writing paper. Yes, I know the definition is
actually more general than that, but I was taught that an oblong is a
rectangle that is not a square.

The NSOED definition of the adjective includes "esp. rectangular with
adjacent sides unequal", in which the word "adjacent" seems entirely
superfluous, almost misleading.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 15 Jun 2009 13:47 GMT
>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't
>>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>"circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong".  Calling a
>rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle".

OED says something similar:

    A. adj.
   
    1. a. Elongated (usually as a deviation from an exact square or
    circular form); esp. rectangular with the adjacent sides unequal.
   
    b. Bot. Of a leaf: approximately rectangular, or broadly linear, in
    shape, with long straight sides and blunt or slightly rounded ends.
    Of a plant: having such leaves.
   
    c. Of a sheet of paper, page, picture, postage stamp, etc.:
    rectangular, with the breadth greater than the height; in landscape
    as opposed to portrait format.
   
    {dag}2. fig. Disproportionately long; drawn out. Obs. nonce-use.
   
    B. n. An oblong figure or object; esp. a rectangle of greater
    length than breadth.

So, it appears that an oblong is a non-square rectangle, an enclosed
curved shape that is a squished circle or a combination of these.

Add to that concave corners and we might have covered most if not all
possibilities.

It don't use the word myself.

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(in alt.usage.english)

Robert Bannister - 16 Jun 2009 01:06 GMT
>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't
>>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> "circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong".  Calling a
> rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle".

The dictionary sort of implies a pondial difference, but most of the
other Americans who've written in this thread don't seem to agree with
MWC or you. Perhaps it's more regional than pondial.

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Rob Bannister

Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:13 GMT
>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they
>>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> A rule lasts an awfully long time so mixed measures still abound.

Which is precisely why rules require regulation.  (Someone had to say it.)

ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts --
exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts.

> Most
> tape measures I have seen bear both scales.

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Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 18:17 GMT
>ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts --
>exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts.

In engineering we call them "scales", e.g., "Hand me that
engineer's scale".

My metric scale is the only one I still have the original box
for, and the manufacturer labels it a "Triangular Scale".

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Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 18:24 GMT
>>ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts --
>>exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>My metric scale is the only one I still have the original box
>for, and the manufacturer labels it a "Triangular Scale".

By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is
used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for
measuring. Woe betide someone who uses one of my scales for
making lines. Running a pen or pencil along the edge will
ultimately damage the edge of the scale. You use the scale to
mark off distances with dots or ticks and you use a straightedge
or a triangle to make the actual line.

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Murray Arnow - 11 Jun 2009 19:16 GMT
>By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is
>used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>mark off distances with dots or ticks and you use a straightedge
>or a triangle to make the actual line.

Alan Chace, the University of Cincinnati Physics Department's Master
Machinist, would have agreed with you almost completely. You would find
yourself in an argument, however, over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no
uncertain terms, the instrument was a rule not a ruler.
the Omrud - 11 Jun 2009 19:18 GMT
>> By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is
>> used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> yourself in an argument, however, over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no
> uncertain terms, the instrument was a rule not a ruler.

Yep, somebody at my school tried to enforce that.  King Ludwig (the
insane) was a ruler.

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James Silverton - 11 Jun 2009 20:08 GMT
the  wrote  on Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:18:16 GMT:

>>> By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A
>>> ruler is used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no uncertain terms, the
>> instrument was a rule not a ruler.

> Yep, somebody at my school tried to enforce that.  King Ludwig
> (the insane) was a ruler.

True enough but the battle of nomenclature was lost long ago.

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Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 21:07 GMT
>>By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is
>>used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>yourself in an argument, however, over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no
>uncertain terms, the instrument was a rule not a ruler.

OK. But you use it to rule lines, so to me it is a ruler.

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Richard Bollard - 12 Jun 2009 03:54 GMT
...

>ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts --
>exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts.

Same here insofar as ruler rules in usage. My father used to have it
on auto correct whenever we asked for a "ruler" he would tell us that
the Queen was a ruler, we wanted a "rule".

If you don't know the "correct" term then the old joke "mine's twelve
inches but I don't use it as a rule" doesn't work.
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To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robert Bannister - 13 Jun 2009 01:42 GMT
> ...
>> ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts --
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If you don't know the "correct" term then the old joke "mine's twelve
> inches but I don't use it as a rule" doesn't work.

When I was at school (back in England), we (presumably because of the
teachers' usage) distinguished between a foot ruler and a metre rule.
This may have been because the 12 inch ruler was used to rule lines
while the metre rule appeared to mainly used to whack boys over the hand.

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Rob Bannister

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 13 Jun 2009 12:39 GMT
>> ...
>>> ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts --
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> When I was at school (back in England), we (presumably because of the
> teachers' usage) distinguished between a foot ruler and a metre rule.

I've no idea what (if any) was the logic behind this difference, but
that was exacty what I heard at school also. Maybe it had to do with
the fact that a ruler was mainly used for ruling lines, whereas a metre
rule was mainly used for measuring distances. Typographers use "rule"
(but never "ruler") to mean a straight line.

> This may have been because the 12 inch ruler was used to rule lines
> while the metre rule appeared to mainly used to whack boys over the
> hand.

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athel

Robert Bannister - 14 Jun 2009 00:06 GMT
>>> ...
>>>> ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>> This may have been because the 12 inch ruler was used to rule lines
>> while the metre rule appeared to mainly used to whack boys over the hand.

To be serious this time, I suppose the reason was that metre rules were
only found in science and occasionally maths classrooms.

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Rob Bannister

Mark Brader - 14 Jun 2009 06:26 GMT
Rob Bannister:
>>> When I was at school (back in England), we (presumably because of the
>>> teachers' usage) distinguished between a foot ruler and a metre rule.

Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> I've no idea what (if any) was the logic behind this difference, but
>> that was exacty what I heard at school also. Maybe it had to do with the
>> fact that a ruler was mainly used for ruling lines, whereas a metre rule
>> was mainly used for measuring distances. ...

Rob Bannister:
> ... I suppose the reason was that metre rules were
> only found in science and occasionally maths classrooms.

Reading this again now, I realize that I have a different difference.
The "rulers" I first used were opaque plastic or sometimes wood and
were typically a foot long (30 cm), or sometimes about 6 inches (15 cm),
marked in 16ths of an inch and in 10ths of a centimeter (by which I mean
there were 10 marks at 1 mm intervals between the numbers 2 and 3, say).

Later I encountered metal ones (often somewhat longer, up to about
17 inches or 40 cm), which might be marked in 32nds for part of their
length; and still later what I now consider the best kind for most
purposes, clear plastic, which are usually 6-12 inches, with the inch
scale sometimes in 10ths instead of 16ths.  Any of these or other
similar variations I call a "ruler".

But the other kind I commonly encountered in school was a relatively
thick piece of wood a yard long, typically marked along just one side
in inches, and only in eighths, nothing finer.  And the only name
I have for this is a "yardstick".  When I got to high school science,
we had the metric equivalent, a meter long, marked only in 10ths of
a centimeter (as explained above), and the name we used for this was
definitely "meter stick".

However, right now I have at home the metal equivalent of this, only
with an inch scale *as well*, and this I call a ruler.  So for me,
it seems that whether it's a "ruler" or a "...stick" depends not only
on the length but also the material.

My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
could by folded for convenient storage or unfolded to measure a
length of something like 5 feet, but was not good for drawing long
straight lines.  As I recall it was made of wood but with some hard
white finish like on a bamboo slide rule, with brass joints.  This I
know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much
that I'd use "rule" for.
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John Kane - 14 Jun 2009 19:59 GMT
> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much
> that I'd use "rule" for.

My father had one too, and I think my grandfather on my mother's side,
also had one.  I think they were quite common before the advent of the
retracting tape measure.

John Kane Kingston ON
Pat Durkin - 14 Jun 2009 21:32 GMT
On Jun 14, 1:26 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:

> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much
> that I'd use "rule" for.

John Kane:
My father had one too, and I think my grandfather on my mother's side,
also had one.  I think they were quite common before the advent of the
retracting tape measure.

Pat Durkin:
Here is one that I found among my brother's stuff.
  I think I stowed it in another "safe" place when the 5-year-old boy
next door had it out and was using it as a sword/machine gun.  He can
convert _anything_ into a weapon.   It is probably 50 years old.  My
older brother, 20 years deceased, seemed to find old tools fascinating.

Well, I just went straight to my screw-driver/hammer box and found it in
the first place I looked.  I think it is a kind of steel, quite
flexible, 12 leaves riveted together, measuring 6 feet (72 inches)  I
have a hard time reading the inches and tenths (1 to 71 on one side, 71
to 1 on the other).  Can't find my WD-40, so I used veg. oil to clean it
a bit.

The numbers aren't as large as on this one:  http://tinyurl.com/levxe2
for:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lufkin-Metal-Folding-Ruler-%3E-Antique-Tool-Tools_W0
QQitemZ350202952346QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090517?IMSfp=TL090517129001r39430

And, the fractions of the inch appear on both edges, and the numbers are
in a path down the center.  It looks like millimeters in one section on
one side of the first (or last) leaf.  That section isn't even an inch
long.  The number 72 doesn't appear.  As with the images, the last leaf
ends squarely about an inch beyond the "7" on each end.  On one side it
seems to read "GER" or "GBR" after the  "71"  The folded ruler is about
1/2 inch thick.
the Omrud - 14 Jun 2009 22:19 GMT
>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> also had one.  I think they were quite common before the advent of the
> retracting tape measure.

My Dad (one-time draughtsman) had one, probably still does.  It's called
an "engineer's rule".  There's a little game which draughtsmen played
with new recruits: you have to entirely unfold the rule with only three
moves, each of which must be away from you.  It's not really difficult
but it takes a while to figure it out.

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David

Leslie Danks - 14 Jun 2009 22:30 GMT
>>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
>>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> moves, each of which must be away from you.  It's not really difficult
> but it takes a while to figure it out.

They're still common enough on Austrian building sites. They have the
advantage over retractable steel rules that they can be used to take
measurements in mucky places, and will even survive being dropped into a
bucket of mortar.

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Les (BrE)

Mark Brader - 15 Jun 2009 01:13 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
>> could by folded for convenient storage or unfolded to measure a
>> length of something like 5 feet ...  This I know as a "folding rule"...

John Kane:
> My father had one too, and I think my grandfather on my mother's side,
> also had one.  I think they were quite common before the advent of the
> retracting tape measure.

Makes sense.  Ours wasn't that old, though.  He acquired it around
1968-70, and I'm sure he had a 6-foot retractable tape measure well
before that.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

tony cooper - 15 Jun 2009 04:02 GMT
>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>also had one.  I think they were quite common before the advent of the
>retracting tape measure.

I hate posts that make me feel really old.  I have a folding rule in
my garage in the workbench drawers.  I still use it occasionally
because it's a rigid ruler and I can poke it places where the
retracting tape measure bends and use it on a horizontal surface
without it bending.  One of these days I'll buy one of those heavy,
wide retractable tape measures that doesn't get all wobbly when
extended.


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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 15 Jun 2009 13:52 GMT
>>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
>>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>wide retractable tape measures that doesn't get all wobbly when
>extended.

Feel younger again. Folding rules are still available (new):
http://tinyurl.com/ksescc

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Hatunen - 14 Jun 2009 23:54 GMT
>My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments
>each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much
>that I'd use "rule" for.

That's a carpenter's (folding) rule, still available. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruler

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Mike Lyle - 08 Jun 2009 23:48 GMT
>>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the
>>> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Absolutely standard in the UK.  I'd be really surprised to find one
> that didn't have either.

Me, too. Until I looked around the house, and found, as well as a
standard clear plastic rule in inches and metric, one unbranded
"non-shatter" rule marked in cm one edge and mm the other, and a very
old 9" boxwood one marked in eighths and twelfths on the obverse and
tenths and sixteenths on the reverse. My steel tapes and two sewing-box
tapes are biunitary; there's also a sewing-type one which is metric
only, and I rather think that came from a school.

> Sometimes, if I just need to remember and transfer measurements from
> one thing to another, I'll use whichever scale they hit the tidiest
> value on, or whichever way round is easiest to line up.

Yes, I'm promiscuous, too.

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Mike.

John Kane - 06 Jun 2009 16:50 GMT
> > Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time.  How much
> > time, as Evan asked?  I don't know.  Studying physics, I had to
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both
> scales.

Completely normal in Canada and has been since, I believe, the
1960's.  I don't think we have the dual speedometer numbering that we
used to have, though.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
J. J. Lodder - 06 Jun 2009 20:42 GMT
> > Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time.  How much
> > time, as Evan asked?  I don't know.  Studying physics, I had to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> when you were done, you converted it back to the units you were used
> to.  But typically, it didn't matter all that much.

America just has to go metric.
Nowadays the American kiddies have become to dumb
to do all the sums needed for all those conversions.
(don't blame me, not my joke, it's a quote)

> The exception was the internalization that light travels at (just
> under) a foot a nanosecond.  That visualization became important when
> dealing with systems that had nanosecond-level synchronization
> requirements, and so cable lengths in

The Amazing Grace always carried her nanosecond with her.
She had a sailor carrying the microsecond (spooled),
and some picosecond dust.
,
> > but using it routinely in real life took decades.  I'm about 2/3 of
> > the way through having a new kitchen installed (difficult bits which
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both
> scales.

Certainly not.
They are common in thoroughly metricated countries as well.
(I have several of them)

Jan
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:08 GMT
>America just has to go metric.

Why?

(As I noted elsewhere, America is already metric where it needs
to be.)

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Murray Arnow - 06 Jun 2009 23:37 GMT
>>America just has to go metric.
>
>Why?
>
>(As I noted elsewhere, America is already metric where it needs
>to be.)

This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have re-iterated
what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in many places. The
most notable place is the military. Medical practice is to use metric
measurements with the exception of measuring body temperature. And all
scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all electrical
measurements are metric. Metric units are very common in engineering,
although not universal. One major exception to metric usage is
agricultural; comestibles have successfully avoided metricization. And
of course, distances just won't submit to the metric system. There was
an ill-fated attempt years past to post signs in km and miles, but that
went the way of Burma Shave signs.

Personally, I enjoy systems of mixed units. It keeps you on your toes. I
think the British may have suffered a national drop in IQ by adopting a
decimal based currency.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 23:49 GMT
> This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have
> re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in
> many places. The most notable place is the military. Medical
> practice is to use metric measurements with the exception of
> measuring body temperature.

Are you sure about that exception?  They may convert when they tell
you, but I'm pretty sure that it's at least reasonably common
(especially in hospitals) for body temperature to be measured and
recorded in Celsius.  (Though not Kelvin.)

> And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all
> electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common in
> engineering, although not universal. One major exception to metric
> usage is agricultural; comestibles have successfully avoided
> metricization.

Huh?  All food and beverage packaging with I believe, the possible
exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and
non-metric) units.  

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Murray Arnow - 07 Jun 2009 00:45 GMT
>> This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have
>> re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and
>non-metric) units.  

I wasn't referring to legal requirements. I was speaking to what is done
in practice. When was the last time you bought a kilo of peaches?
Although, some soft drinks are sold by metric units, milk and whiskey
aren't. The custom of selling food in English units is so common a
"huh?" could be asked about your huh? Also, other commodities have
escaped the metricization, gems and jewelry.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 02:19 GMT
>>> And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all
>>> electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I wasn't referring to legal requirements. I was speaking to what is
> done in practice.

In practice, all prepackaged food has its size given in metric units.
Not necessarily round metric units, but not necessarily round
non-metric units, either.  I'm not sure how that counts as
"successfully avoiding metricization".

> When was the last time you bought a kilo of peaches?

I don't know.  I picked up the peaches and put them in a bag.  Did I
buy 21 oz or did I buy 595 g?  If I weigh them, it's on a scale that
tells me ounces and grams.  If I want to buy a kilo of peaches, it's
pretty straightforward.  I'll grant you that this is one area in which
the posted price may well only be in non-metric units.  (Or may not.)

> Although, some soft drinks are sold by metric units, milk and
> whiskey aren't.

Whiskey is, by law.  Only in metric units.  I don't believe there are
any legal non-metric "standards of fill" for hard liquor.

> The custom of selling food in English units is so common a "huh?"
> could be asked about your huh?

Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American
comes in contact with the metric system every day.

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Murray Arnow - 07 Jun 2009 02:41 GMT
>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American
>comes in contact with the metric system every day.

He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the chap will
begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when his recipe books use
metric measures only.
tony cooper - 07 Jun 2009 02:52 GMT
>>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American
>>comes in contact with the metric system every day.
>
>He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the chap will
>begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when his recipe books use
>metric measures only.

I'm a PC user who uses Adobe Photoshop CS4 and Lightroom2.  At this
moment, there are three books on my desk that I'm working through to
improve my skills in Photoshop.  Every book I've ever read on
Photoshop gives each keystroke command for both users of PCs and Macs:
"Command-J PC: Control J".  

I would expect recipe books to use similar instructions, but it would
be a bit more difficult since there are not even equivalents.

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 06:47 GMT
>>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American
>>comes in contact with the metric system every day.
>
> He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the
> chap will begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when
> his recipe books use metric measures only.

I'll keep checking the ones on my shelves.  When they change, I'll let
you know.

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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:20 GMT
>>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American
>>comes in contact with the metric system every day.
>
>He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the chap will
>begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when his recipe books use
>metric measures only.

As long as the recipe books continue to be written by Americans,
that remains unlikely.

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Egbert White - 07 Jun 2009 14:02 GMT
>> This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have
>> re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>(especially in hospitals) for body temperature to be measured and
>recorded in Celsius.  (Though not Kelvin.)

I've recently observed that at a Kaiser Permanente hospital the nurses
measure your temperature by sticking a probe in your ear, the
temperature in Celsius then appearing on a digital display.  It was
also interesting that there was a conversion table on the wall of each
room listing Celsius temperatures for small increments of a degree
alongside the equivalent Fahrenheit temperatures.  I suspect that the
table may have been motivated by the frequency of the question from
patients: "What's that in Fahrenheit?"

>> And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all
>> electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and
>non-metric) units.

I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric molded in
the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit.  At least
that's true of a bottle from the Door Peninsula Winery I just looked
at (750 ml).  Also, a jug of Christian Brothers VS Brandy is labeled
1.75 liter with no mention of Fahrenheit.
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tony cooper - 07 Jun 2009 14:26 GMT
>I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric molded in
>the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit.  At least
>that's true of a bottle from the Door Peninsula Winery I just looked
>at (750 ml).  Also, a jug of Christian Brothers VS Brandy is labeled
>1.75 liter with no mention of Fahrenheit.

I think you can save some time and stop examining wine bottles for
signs of measurement of capacity in Fahrenheit.  

You might, however, find a reference on a wine label to "chill", but
that seems to work in both Fahrenheit and Celsius.

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Egbert White - 07 Jun 2009 15:35 GMT
>>I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric molded in
>>the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit.  At least
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I think you can save some time and stop examining wine bottles for
>signs of measurement of capacity in Fahrenheit.  

That's true, thank you.  My headbone sometimes does strange things
early in the morning.  I really did know better.
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Egbert White
WAmE

Nick - 07 Jun 2009 17:17 GMT
>  On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper
> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> That's true, thank you.  My headbone sometimes does strange things
> early in the morning.  I really did know better.

I thought you were being whimsical.
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Leslie Danks - 07 Jun 2009 17:35 GMT
>  On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper
> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> That's true, thank you.  My headbone sometimes does strange things
> early in the morning.  I really did know better.

I thought you were deliberately pulling our plonkers. You didn't need to
confess.

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Les (BrE)

James Hogg - 07 Jun 2009 17:45 GMT
Quoth Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at>, and I quote:

>>  On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper
>> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>I thought you were deliberately pulling our plonkers. You didn't need to
>confess.

It could easily have been an American equivalent to the British:

"750 ml - what's that in old money?"

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James

Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:21 GMT
>Quoth Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at>, and I quote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>"750 ml - what's that in old money?"

A fifth of a gallon.

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Skitt - 09 Jun 2009 01:30 GMT
> James Hogg wrote:
>> Quoth Leslie Danks, and I quote:
>>> Egbert White wrote:

>>>>>> I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric
>>>>>> molded in the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> A fifth of a gallon.

Better known as just "a fifth".  <hic>
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Skitt (AmE)

John Kane - 09 Jun 2009 14:36 GMT
> >> Quoth Leslie Danks, and I quote:
> >>>>>> I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Better known as just "a fifth".  <hic>

I'd always wondered why that volume was called a 'fifth'.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:53 GMT
>> >> "750 ml - what's that in old money?"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I'd always wondered why that volume was called a 'fifth'.

See the wonderful things you cvan learn online? Of course, it's a
tad too late to need that one.

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Egbert White - 07 Jun 2009 18:17 GMT
>>  On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper
>> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>I thought you were deliberately pulling our plonkers. You didn't need to
>confess.

Okay, I hereby retract my confession.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jun 2009 04:36 GMT
>  On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:46:09 +0200, Leslie Danks
> <leslie.danks@aon.at> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Okay, I hereby retract my confession.

You clearly aren't expecting the British Inquisition.

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pat - 27 Jun 2009 16:35 GMT
>All food and beverage packaging with I believe, the possible
>exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and
>non-metric) units.  

You are referring to products controlled by the FPLA. As you say, the
FPLA mandates both units.
As you say, beer is controlled by the Treasury (I think). The law for
beer labels mandates non-metric units and leaves metric units
optional.
Milk is controlled by the USDA. The law for beer labels mandates non-
metric units and leaves metric units optional.

These laws make 100% metric labels illegal. There are companies like
Proctor&Gamble that want to be able to import/export 100% metric
products. Currently, they have to pay the costs of relabeling or face
a fine.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jun 2009 16:36 GMT
>>All food and beverage packaging with I believe, the possible
>>exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> USDA. The law for beer labels mandates non- metric units and leaves
> metric units optional.

And the law for wine and hard liquor mandates metric units and, I
believe, forbids non-metric units.  Consistency?  What consistency?

> These laws make 100% metric labels illegal. There are companies like
> Proctor&Gamble that want to be able to import/export 100% metric
> products. Currently, they have to pay the costs of relabeling or
> face a fine.

I find it hard to believe that there is a whole lot that meets all of
the other American labeling requirements but can't be imported because
it doesn't have non-metric units (in addition to metric units, which
it has at the mandated precision).  Of course, if it existed, that
could be solved trivially by having other countries not *forbid*
non-metric units (in addition to metric units).  Which would also not
punish people who wanted to import products the other way without
relabeling.

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pat - 28 Jun 2009 18:09 GMT
>And the law for wine and hard liquor mandates metric units and, I
>believe, forbids non-metric units.

For wine and liquor, metric units are compulsory (as you say). Non-
metric units are optional (but they aren't forbidden, as you
believed). You are correct to say that the law is an impediment to
wine/liquor trade with countries outside the US that forbid metric
units on the label. The USDA published a list of relevant countries
(http://www.fas.usda.gov/htp2/circular/1998/98-03/nowine.html) and
they are dominated by countries that do not forbid metric units.

The US wine/liquor industry used to use units like "fifths" but the
industry asked for a change in label laws and now we have the current
metric laws.

>that could be solved trivially by having other countries not *forbid*
>non-metric units (in addition to metric units).

I'm a bit confused by that. Which countries do you think forbid non-
metric units on the label?
Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jun 2009 19:53 GMT
>>And the law for wine and hard liquor mandates metric units and, I
>>believe, forbids non-metric units.
>
> For wine and liquor, metric units are compulsory (as you say). Non-
> metric units are optional (but they aren't forbidden, as you
> believed).

I had thought that when they went to metric "standards of fill", the
labeling requirements were changed to say that that was how (and only
how) the contents could be stated.  But maybe I read more into it.
The rules state that

   The net contents of distilled spirits shall be stated in the same
   manner and form as set forth in the standards of fill in § 5.47a.

and

   Words or phrases qualifying statements of net contents are
   prohibited.

I had thought that the second part was held to rule out non-metric
units, but I could well have been mistaken.

> You are correct to say that the law is an impediment to wine/liquor
> trade with countries outside the US that forbid metric units on the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I'm a bit confused by that. Which countries do you think forbid non-
> metric units on the label?

I assumed that it was inherent in your example.  If Procter & Gamble
wants can't import things without relabeling, I presumed that if the
only thing mandating relabeling for the US market was that the
products made for sale elsewhere was the lack of non-metric units, the
simple solution would be to just put both units on in the first place
(or getting their suppliers to do so) for sale in both markets.  The
only reason I could see for that not to be done would be that the
other market didn't allow it.

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Mark Brader - 29 Jun 2009 01:38 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> that could be solved trivially by having other countries not *forbid*
>> non-metric units (in addition to metric units).

Pat Norton:
> I'm a bit confused by that. Which countries do you think forbid non-
> metric units on the label?

As we're talking about US products labeled by volume, for most of the
British commonwealth it wouldn't matter whether non-metric units are
allowed or not -- labels using "fluid ounces" or "pints" or "quarts"
or "gallons" that are not the Imperial units of those names would not
be acceptable.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

pat - 03 Jul 2009 19:18 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>     Words or phrases qualifying statements of net contents are
>     prohibited.
>
> I had thought that the second part was held to rule out non-metric
> units, but I could well have been mistaken.

The term 'qualifying' has a similar meaning to 'modifying'. Similar
regulations expand it a bit:
*************************************************************************************
"It shall not include any term qualifying a unit of weight, measure,
or count (such as jumbo quart and full gallon ) that tends to
exaggerate the amount of the food in the container."

"shall not include any term qualifying a unit of weight or mass,
measure, or count such as “jumbo quart,” “giant liter,” “full gallon,”
“when packed,” “minimum,” or words of similar import."
*************************************************************************************

>the simple solution would be to just put both units on in the first place
>(or getting their suppliers to do so) for sale in both markets. The
>only reason I could see for that not to be done would be that the
>other market didn't allow it.

Yes. If businesses in the rest of the world complied with US label
laws, relabeling wouldn't be required. Some of the huge cosmetic firms
do exactly that but they are exceptional. Most products in the metric
world don't have US units on the label. The problem occurs at the time
the transatlantic trade is initiated.

As Mark Brader says below, labels that say "pint", "quart" or "gallon"
are misleading (or inadequate) for transatlantic trade between the US
and Commonwealth countries. There are laws that forbid these
particular units but only in countries that used identical named units
of different size and hence the old name will mislead the older
customer.

The proposal to amend the FPLA will remove the technical barrier and
make free trade easier.
Mark Brader - 03 Jul 2009 19:24 GMT
Pat Norton:
> As Mark Brader says below,

ObAUE: Below?

> labels that say "pint", "quart" or "gallon" are misleading (or inadequate)
> for transatlantic trade between the US and Commonwealth countries.

Not to mention cisatlantic trade.
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James Silverton - 03 Jul 2009 21:20 GMT
Mark  wrote  on Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:24:50 -0500:

> Pat Norton:
>> As Mark Brader says below,

> ObAUE: Below?

>> labels that say "pint", "quart" or "gallon" are misleading
>> (or inadequate) for transatlantic trade between the US and
>> Commonwealth countries.

> Not to mention cisatlantic trade.

Fortunately, containers usually give the volume in fluid ounces. The US
and Canadian fluid ounces are not identical but close enough (I don't
dare say "For government work" :-)
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Mark Brader - 04 Jul 2009 02:20 GMT
Mark Brader:
> > Not to mention cisatlantic trade.

James Silverton:
> Fortunately, containers usually give the volume in fluid ounces.

I wouldn't go as far as "usually".

> The US and Canadian fluid ounces are not identical but close enough
> (I don't dare say "For government work" :-)

And labeling standards *are* government work, and a 4% difference
won't do.
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pat - 04 Jul 2009 07:18 GMT
> James Silverton:
>>Fortunately, containers usually give the volume in fluid ounces.
>
>I wouldn't go as far as "usually".

Nor would I. The US fluid ounce is rarely seen in Europe. An exception
is cosmetics produced by huge multinationals.

>>The US and Canadian fluid ounces are not identical but close enough
>>(I don't dare say "For government work" :-)
>
>And labeling standards *are* government work, and a 4% difference
>won't do.

Indeed. It is the worst case that counts in law. If you deliver 4% too
little, it is illegal. If you deliver 4% too much it isn't a legal
error but it is a cost.
J. J. Lodder - 07 Jun 2009 22:28 GMT
> >America just has to go metric.
>
> Why?
>
> (As I noted elsewhere, America is already metric where it needs
> to be.)

Why snip the reason given and then ask why?

Jan
Ildhund - 06 Jun 2009 20:56 GMT
Robin Bignall wrote...
> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
> teens...

No-one has mentioned the schism that took place, in my school at any
rate, around 1960. Until then, we had been using a metric system
called 'CGS,' but now we were to start thinking MKS. It could be
that those who never experienced this - non-scientists, perhaps -
got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the
millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to.
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Robin Bignall - 06 Jun 2009 21:34 GMT
>Robin Bignall wrote...
>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the
>millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to.

I went to a CAT (College of Advanced Technology) that converted to an
internal college of London University at the end of my first year.
They believed in teaching you rather than lecturing at you, a style
that suited me.  One of my best friends (the one who joined the brain
drain in 1967) started reading maths at Imperial College, where they
lectured at you, the year before and failed his first year, so he
converted to Physics.  We both ended up with firsts, so the CAT style
suited him, too.

I mention this because the CAT had a sort of "forget what you learned
at school: we do physics this way" philosophy that basically started
from scratch so it didn't matter much if you had been taught CGS or
MKS.  However, they went so fast through what you should have learned
at school that if you hadn't you wouldn't be able to keep up.
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Don Aitken - 06 Jun 2009 21:43 GMT
>Robin Bignall wrote...
>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the
>millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to.

Or not, as the case may be. The insistence that the centimeter is not
a proper unit has probably done more than anything else to inbibit
acceptence of the metric system. Ordinary unbrainwashed people simply
insist on having a unit of length larger than a millimetre and smaller
than a meter; the centimeter is used as a matter of course everywhere
where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of
SI was invented.

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Mark Brader - 06 Jun 2009 21:52 GMT
> ... The insistence that the centimeter is not
> a proper unit has probably done more than anything else to inbibit
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of
> SI was invented.

Hey, mind your religious slurs there!  Anticentimeterism is no part
of the mainstream SI religion; it's a holier-than-thou breakaway sect
that accepts only *part* of SI.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:26 GMT
>> ... The insistence that the centimeter is not
>> a proper unit has probably done more than anything else to inbibit
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>of the mainstream SI religion; it's a holier-than-thou breakaway sect
>that accepts only *part* of SI.

"Breakaway" my a.s. Centimeterism was around when SI wasn't even
a gleam in Rutherford's eye. SI is the heresy.

Maybe we need a full forum at Nicea.

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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 02:24 GMT
Don Aitken:
>>> ... the centimeter is used as a matter of course everywhere
>>> where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of
>>> SI was invented.

Mark Brader:
>> Hey, mind your religious slurs there!  Anticentimeterism is no part
>> of the mainstream SI religion; it's a holier-than-thou breakaway sect
>> that accepts only *part* of SI.

Dave Hatunen:
> "Breakaway" my a.s. Centimeterism was around when SI wasn't even
> a gleam in Rutherford's eye. SI is the heresy.

Disanticentimeterist!
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Robert Bannister - 07 Jun 2009 00:29 GMT
>> Robin Bignall wrote...
>>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of
> SI was invented.

I wouldn't have thought the average builder was brainwashed, but they
all seem to work and think in millimetres these days.

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Rob Bannister

Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:23 GMT
>Robin Bignall wrote...
>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the
>millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to.

Worse yet, when I entered engineering school in 1954 we were
taught FPS, even in physics class.

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Murray Arnow - 06 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT
>>Robin Bignall wrote...
>>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Worse yet, when I entered engineering school in 1954 we were
>taught FPS, even in physics class.

Yah, but that was an after thought. It was included to show that such
units existed. The FPS units disappeared after Physics 101.
HVS - 06 Jun 2009 22:44 GMT
On 06 Jun 2009, Ildhund wrote

> Robin Bignall wrote...
>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> progressing to the millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others
> eventually got used to.

There's still certainly a divide in the UK, at least in construction,
between consumer and industry measurements, where centimetres are
still used for labelling goods for sale to the public.

(DIY shops, for example, will sell you a door that's "73 x 195.5" --
a measurement that would never, ever be found in a building
specification.)

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jun 2009 23:38 GMT
>On 06 Jun 2009, Ildhund wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>a measurement that would never, ever be found in a building
>specification.)

B&Q seem to use mm sizing.
http://tinyurl.com/nnf8nw

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Nick - 07 Jun 2009 07:11 GMT
>>On 06 Jun 2009, Ildhund wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> B&Q seem to use mm sizing.
> http://tinyurl.com/nnf8nw

My god, you found something on the B&Q web site.  We are not worthy of
your presence.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 22:02 GMT
>> But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
>> named units that are so small and so close together.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> hectis and hectos or hectas or whatever) is, at 1000 (100 if you're
> lucky) just far, far too large for people sized things.

I've previously voiced my own theory (which is mine) that when it came
time to define the meter, the main unit in use was the yard, and so
they looked for a scientific way to get something close to a yard,
settling on 1/10-millionth of the distance between the equator and the
north pole as being usefully close.  Unfortunately, as you note,
decimal divisions of this unit don't really yield a useful "foot" (the
distance between hands held apart in front of the body) or "inch" (the
distince between thumb and index finger).

If they had been going for the foot rather than the yard, they would
probably have taken the whole circumference of the earth, divided by
100 million and gotten about 15.8 inches, which would make a perfectly
good "foot".  A tenth of that would be a bit over an inch and a half,
which is a good "inch".  Two would make a good informal substitution
for a yard.  Ten would be eight tenths of a rod, a thousand would be
about two furlongs, and ten thousand would be just over two and a half
miles, each reasonable for those uses.  The equator would be a nice
round 100 megaunits in length.

Taking the cube of the deciunit as your volume base would give you
just over a quarter of a cup.  A tenth of that is a third more than a
teaspoon, the smallest used volume unit commonly used.  And ten volume
units gives you 21.76 ounces, about halfway between a pint and a quart
(and very close to a British pint).

Taking one volume unit's mass of water as your mass unit would give
you 2.18 ounces, and ten mass units would be a usable 22-ounce
"pound".

All of these would likely, given the lack of standardization at the
time, have been tolerably close to the magnitudes that people were
used to that there would have been very little resistance, especially
if they had been (at least initially) called "metric foot", "metric
inch", "metric pint", etc.

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Richard Bollard - 09 Jun 2009 05:42 GMT
...

>decimal divisions of this unit don't really yield a useful "foot" (the
>distance between hands held apart in front of the body) or "inch" (the
>distince between thumb and index finger).

You have me there. I can't see how or where you would make that (inch)
measurement. I can, of course, hold my thumb and finger an inch apart
but we don't want to beg the question. (Don't tell me that a
"distince" is some special way of measuring that I am ignorant of.)

Jimmy the Oneth defined it as the width of the thumb at the base of
the thumbnail. I checked this on my thumb and it is 2.5 cm, near as
dammit.
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the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 08:33 GMT
> ....
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the thumbnail. I checked this on my thumb and it is 2.5 cm, near as
> dammit.

Hence the French for "inch" - "le pouce", which means "thumb".  Although
"la puce" means "flea" (this is a public service announcement).

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David

Lars Enderin - 09 Jun 2009 08:45 GMT
>> ....
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Hence the French for "inch" - "le pouce", which means "thumb".  Although
> "la puce" means "flea" (this is a public service announcement).

The Swedish word for inch is "tum". Thumb = "tumme".
Jens Brix Christiansen - 09 Jun 2009 09:00 GMT
Lars Enderin skrev:

> The Swedish word for inch is "tum". Thumb = "tumme".

Not to be outdone by our neighbors to the east: The Danish word for inch
is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually "tommelfinger".

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Jens Brix Christiansen

Mike Lyle - 09 Jun 2009 23:19 GMT
> Lars Enderin skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually
> "tommelfinger".

"Tommy Thumb, Tommy Thumb,
Where are you?
Here I am, here I am,
How do you do?"

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Mike.

Ildhund - 10 Jun 2009 10:14 GMT
> Lars Enderin skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually
> "tommelfinger".
...or perhaps just as usually "tommeltot".
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Noel

Jens Brix Christiansen - 10 Jun 2009 10:26 GMT
Ildhund skrev:
> "Jens Brix Christiansen" <jens-usenet@alesia.dk> wrote in message

>> Not to be outdone by our neighbors to the east: The Danish word for
>> inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually "tommelfinger".

> ...or perhaps just as usually "tommeltot".

That would be a slightly more informal and maybe childish register, but
I agree that it might easily be as common. One of my recent geocaches
goes by that title:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC1QMCG

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Jens Brix Christiansen

Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 16:00 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> measurement. I can, of course, hold my thumb and finger an inch apart
> but we don't want to beg the question.

That's pretty much what I meant.  If you hold your thumb and finger
apart and more-or-less parallel and relaxed (i.e., not feeling that
you're "spreading" them), you'll probably find that they are somewhere
between a bit less than an inch and around two-and-a-half inches
apart.  That's what I meant by "an 'inch'" in scare quotes.  Not
necessarilly 2.54 cm, but a unit somewhere in that range.

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Robert Bannister - 10 Jun 2009 01:52 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the thumbnail. I checked this on my thumb and it is 2.5 cm, near as
> dammit.

I thought it was the length of end section of the thumb, ie from the
knuckle to the thumb tip.

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Nick Spalding - 10 Jun 2009 10:08 GMT
Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800:

> > ...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I thought it was the length of end section of the thumb, ie from the
> knuckle to the thumb tip.

Not very reliable, mine are 1¼".
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BrE/IrE

Mike Barnes - 10 Jun 2009 10:28 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
> on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Not very reliable, mine are 1¼".

Or 1-3/4" in my case. One inch is the width of my knuckle.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mike Lyle - 10 Jun 2009 23:38 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Or 1-3/4" in my case. One inch is the width of my knuckle.

The rule of thumb I was taught was that an inch was the width of a man's
thumb or the length of the top joint of his forefinger. I once bought
some kind of cordage from a Welsh ironmonmger who measured it in yards
as expressed by the distance from his finger tips to his nose.

Signature

Mike.

Robin Bignall - 11 Jun 2009 21:31 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>some kind of cordage from a Welsh ironmonmger who measured it in yards
>as expressed by the distance from his finger tips to his nose.

I think that you guys who have inch-wide thumbs and knuckles are
bare-knuckle boxers and I willingly forego my claim to five quid.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Richard Bollard - 12 Jun 2009 04:01 GMT
>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>I think that you guys who have inch-wide thumbs and knuckles are
>bare-knuckle boxers and I willingly forego my claim to five quid.

AIUI, small hands fibbed much harder than large ones. More punch to
the point.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robin Bignall - 12 Jun 2009 21:47 GMT
>>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>AIUI, small hands fibbed much harder than large ones. More punch to
>the point.

I'm not quite with that.  To fib, in BrE, means to tell lies, but not
serious ones.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Richard Bollard - 15 Jun 2009 03:43 GMT
>>>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>I'm not quite with that.  To fib, in BrE, means to tell lies, but not
>serious ones.

Probably completely obsolete. Much used in bare-knuckle days and
learned by me from Black Ajax by George MacDonald Fraser. Full of
glorious slanguage from the era.
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Robin Bignall - 15 Jun 2009 21:37 GMT
>>>>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>>>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>learned by me from Black Ajax by George MacDonald Fraser. Full of
>glorious slanguage from the era.

That's a new one to me, so I thought I'd look it up in OED.  It's the
second entry for "fib", dated 1814, meaning "a blow".  I'll be blowed!
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Robert Bannister - 11 Jun 2009 01:22 GMT
> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
>  on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Not very reliable, mine are 1¼".

That is because your body is not built along the same lines as whichever
ancient king (ruler?) defined the unit.

Signature

Rob Bannister

R H Draney - 11 Jun 2009 04:11 GMT
Robert Bannister filted:

>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net>
>>  on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>That is because your body is not built along the same lines as whichever
>ancient king (ruler?) defined the unit.

I am reminded here of a certain piece of absurdist cinema, explained in one
review as follows:

'In The Bed Sitting Room, Arthur Lowe elects himself Prime Minister one morning,
simply because he measures his inside leg and finds he's "very well equipped...
I always knew my inside leg would lead to power".'

....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

Jens Brix Christiansen - 09 Jun 2009 08:47 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:

> Unfortunately, as you note,
> decimal divisions of this unit don't really yield a useful "foot" (the
> distance between hands held apart in front of the body) or "inch" (the
> distince between thumb and index finger).

True. But there are other ways. When my wife spreads her fingers, the
distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger is 20
cm for all practical purposes. She uses this fact all the time for small
informal measurements.

When I stretch my arm out, the distance from the tip of my nose to the
tip of my middle finger is 100 cm for all practical purposes - not that
I use that measurement very often. I guess that this simply implies that
I am big enough to have a personal fathom of 2 m.

> "metric pint", etc.

As you probably already know, the metric pint for draft beer is half a
liter.

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Jens Brix Christiansen

Mike Page - 09 Jun 2009 09:31 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> As you probably already know, the metric pint for draft beer is half a
> liter.

No substitute at all. An inadequate quantity.

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Mike Page
Google me at port.ac.uk if you need to send an email.

Mike Barnes - 06 Jun 2009 10:12 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>How many decades does it have to be before it ceases to be "quite
>new"?

It varies from person to person. Some adapt to it straight away, some
never do. A lot depends on how much you use measurements in your day-to-
day life. It's different if you grew up with it.

>>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that
>>>a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches.  No 71-foot-tall people or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>American system to be unsure whether there are 3.3 or 39 feet in a
>meter?

My point is that people unfamiliar with cm and mm tend to get them
confused. So they know 2.54 or 25.4 to the inch but aren't sure what it
relates to. There aren't 39 feet in any unit that they're likely to come
across.

>But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
>named units that are so small and so close together.

Which is more-or-less what I just said, except for that "silly" bit,
which is itself particularly silly. In detail...

"so small" - that relates to your viewpoint and existing method of
working rather than the units themselves

"so close together" - hardly any closer than inch and foot,
proportionally

More important to my mind is that mm and cm sound quite similar, which
is an impediment only if you're not used to it.

>As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"?  For me, a "doorway" has
>connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches
>seems a bit small.  Were you thinking of a cabinet?  That wouldn't be
>a "doorway" here, I don't think.

How extraordinary, that you think a person couldn't easily walk through
a 35" doorway. The doorway to this room, like many in this old house, is
a full 7" narrower than that. Yet my extremely fat friend Steve (of
average height, weight must be approaching 300 lb, BMI of about 40)
routinely sails through it without showing any sign of anxiety.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Nick Spalding - 06 Jun 2009 10:40 GMT
Mike Barnes wrote, in
<vl2t7EqRMjKKFw0S@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>
on Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:12:49 +0100:

> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> average height, weight must be approaching 300 lb, BMI of about 40)
> routinely sails through it without showing any sign of anxiety.

All the room doors here are 29" except for the bathroom which is 26".
The front door is 31".
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 18:05 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> some never do. A lot depends on how much you use measurements in
> your day-to- day life. It's different if you grew up with it.

But we're talking about 35-40 years, right?  Even for people in their
50s and 60s, that's nearly all of their adult life.  "Still quite new"
is a bit hard to take seriously after that long.  

>>>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure
>>>>that a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches.  No 71-foot-tall people
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> it relates to. There aren't 39 feet in any unit that they're likely
> to come across.

I'm still not seeing it.  Why don't people unfamiliar with feet and
inches tend to get them confused?  Why don't they know (about) 39 to
the meter and (about) 3.3 (or about 3) to the meter but not be sure
which unit it relates to?

>>But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
>>named units that are so small and so close together.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> "so close together" - hardly any closer than inch and foot,
> proportionally

I didn't say that it was silly for them to be so small or silly for
them to be so close together.  I said that it was silly for them to be
so small and so close together.  

[snip]

>>As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"?  For me, a "doorway" has
>>connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> average height, weight must be approaching 300 lb, BMI of about 40)
> routinely sails through it without showing any sign of anxiety.

Youn know, it's funny.  Reading it, it actually never occurred to me
that you would have been describing the width rather than the height.
I can't quite decide whether I would expect to hear "36-inch doorway"
rather than "36-inch-wide doorway".

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Mike Barnes - 07 Jun 2009 17:20 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>50s and 60s, that's nearly all of their adult life.  "Still quite new"
>is a bit hard to take seriously after that long.

No, we're not talking about 35-40 years. I suspect (and this would be
hardly surprising given the distance) that you're confusing metrication
with currency decimalisation, which took place 38 years ago in the UK.
With regard to decimalisation, it's been a very long time since there
was any trace of the old money in everyday British life. And I don't
detect any nostalgia for it, despite deep misgivings from many people at
the time.

Metrication started much later and still in progress. Some people
started trying to think metric about (I guess) 20 years ago. Some people
still haven't started (and probably never will), and it was people
towards that end of the spectrum that I was focussing on.

>>>>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure
>>>>>that a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches.  No 71-foot-tall people
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>I'm still not seeing it.  Why don't people unfamiliar with feet and
>inches tend to get them confused?

I'm not sure that they don't. I've already explained why I think you
might perceive that to be more so than it generally is, and I won't
repeat myself.

But if you're convinced they don't, here are some reasons for you to
consider. Many European cultures have had something like feet and inches
in their not-too-distant past and remnants exist. Inches are still
mainstream in some applications even in continental Europe, for instance
car wheel sizes, and (someone told me) TV screen sizes. And feet for
heights of planes. I'm sure there are many others. "Foot" is pretty-much
self-explanatory to anyone with a rudimentary English vocabulary. And
unlike "millimetre" and "centimetre", the words "foot" and "inch" don't
have 75% of their syllables in common.

>Why don't they know (about) 39 to
>the meter and (about) 3.3 (or about 3) to the meter but not be sure
>which unit it relates to?

I don't know that they don't. I don't even know what conversion factors
spring immediately to the mind of a continental European - their
equivalent of that 25.4 that "everyone" knows in the UK and USA.

>>>But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common
>>>named units that are so small and so close together.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>them to be so close together.  I said that it was silly for them to be
>so small and so close together.

However, if the metric units were bigger - say about 25 times as big -
but still so close together, that wouldn't be "silly"? And they wouldn't
be confused as often as they are? This is what you seem to be saying. If
that's right, I'd like to know your reasoning.

>>>As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"?  For me, a "doorway" has
>>>connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Youn know, it's funny.  Reading it, it actually never occurred to me
>that you would have been describing the width rather than the height.

Glad we cleared that one up. It never occurred to me that you might be
referring to the height.

>I can't quite decide whether I would expect to hear "36-inch doorway"
>rather than "36-inch-wide doorway".

I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume
you were talking about the dimension that's most often critical. Usually
I think width is the critical dimension for a doorway, which is why it
never occurred to me that you were talking about height. If I were you
I'd be looking for some significant event in my past where height was
actually the crucial dimension.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 19:34 GMT
Mike Barnes:
> I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume
> you were talking about the dimension that's most often critical.  Usually
> I think width is the critical dimension for a doorway, which is why it
> never occurred to me that you were talking about height....

I don't recall ever running into a situation where *either* dimension
of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or
centimeters.  Comparing it directly against an object, yes, but not
measuring.  (If you're trying to get an object through the door, it's
not just the size of the opening that matters, but the configuration of
the walls around it, so experiment is often easier than measurement.)

However, I certainly understand that Mike's earlier reference was to
the width.
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msb@vex.net            |   is always right"           -- Michael DeCorte

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Nick - 07 Jun 2009 19:35 GMT
> Mike Barnes:
>> I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or
> centimeters.  

Buying a new door?
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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 19:45 GMT
Mike Barnes:
>>> Usually I think width is the critical dimension for a doorway...

Mark Brader:
>> I don't recall ever running into a situation where *either* dimension
>> of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or
>> centimeters.  

Nick Atty:
> Buying a new door?

[Thinks rapidly]

No, what I did then was to measure the old door, not the doorway.

[Phew, got away with it!]

Anyway, in that circumstance one dimension isn't more critical than
the other.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:26 GMT
> Mike Barnes:
>> I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> not just the size of the opening that matters, but the configuration of
> the walls around it, so experiment is often easier than measurement.)

You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker
yet. I've had to measure the width of most of our doors (only the front
door is wide enough).

Signature

Rob Bannister

Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 06:30 GMT
Rob Bannister:
> You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker
> yet. I've had to measure the width of most of our doors ...

Good point.
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Robin Bignall - 08 Jun 2009 21:44 GMT
>Rob Bannister:
>> You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker
>> yet. I've had to measure the width of most of our doors ...
>
>Good point.

My younger son is six foot seven.  He can just about get under a
standard French doorway of two metres without ducking, but he's been
caught out with smaller doorways so often that ducking when going
through any door is routine.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Ian Jackson - 08 Jun 2009 22:34 GMT
>>Rob Bannister:
>>> You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>caught out with smaller doorways so often that ducking when going
>through any door is routine.

As seen above low doors in many old English pubs, "Duck or Grouse".
Signature

Ian

Jerry Friedman - 09 Jun 2009 04:07 GMT
On Jun 8, 3:34 pm, Ian Jackson
<ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5ttq25tug4sjsfo0fk0p6tf07ms5h0q...@4ax.com>, Robin Bignall
> <docro...@ntlworld.com> writes
...

> >My younger son is six foot seven.  He can just about get under a
> >standard French doorway of two metres without ducking, but he's been
> >caught out with smaller doorways so often that ducking when going
> >through any door is routine.
>
> As seen above low doors in many old English pubs, "Duck or Grouse".

As someone four inches shorter than the younger Mr. Bignall, I find
that sort of thing very amusing.  Ha ha.

--
Jerry Friedman
John Kane - 08 Jun 2009 15:25 GMT
> Mike Barnes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or
> centimeters.  

Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local
university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a
wheelchair on that one".

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Robert Bannister - 09 Jun 2009 01:19 GMT
>> Mike Barnes:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a
> wheelchair on that one".

When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the
lift was so small, there was only just enough room for the wheelchair
and me. I presume they don't think that people with macular degeneration
might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have lifts) have
the best ones, because they allow room for shopping trolleys.

Signature

Rob Bannister

the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 08:34 GMT
>>> Mike Barnes:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have lifts) have
> the best ones, because they allow room for shopping trolleys.

And airports.

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David
off to Munich for a couple of days

R H Draney - 09 Jun 2009 10:21 GMT
the Omrud filted:

>> When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the
>> lift was so small, there was only just enough room for the wheelchair
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>And airports.

And Ikea....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 16:06 GMT
>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local
>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> And airports.

I don't think I've ever been in an elevator that had room for an
airport.  Seems excessive.

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the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 20:45 GMT
>>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local
>>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I don't think I've ever been in an elevator that had room for an
> airport.  Seems excessive.

These Germans don't do anything by halves.

Signature

David
somewhere near Munich

franzi - 09 Jun 2009 21:15 GMT
> >>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local
> >>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> These Germans don't do anything by halves.

Challenge: they play fussball, which is a game of two halves. But it's
true they don't play Rugby fussball, a game of four halves (scrum-half
and fly-half on each side).

The Germans, not half, are today celebrating the seventy-fifth
birthday of the world's favoutite duck:
<http://magazine.web.de/de/themen/unterhaltung/kultur/8303350-Die-
beliebteste-Ente-der-Welt-wird-75,cc=0000055379000830335018UOOE.html>

This is Kultur with a kapital K.
--
franzi
Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:23 GMT
>>>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local
>>>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> These Germans don't do anything by halves.

In Frankfurt they have one that can hold an airport on top of a train
station.

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... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 08:40 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:

>When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the
>lift was so small, there was only just enough room for the wheelchair
>and me. I presume they don't think that people with macular
>degeneration might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have
>lifts) have the best ones, because they allow room for shopping
>trolleys.

I don't think I've ever been in a supermarket lift. Airport lifts are
usually pretty big.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Robert Bannister - 10 Jun 2009 01:56 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>> When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't think I've ever been in a supermarket lift. Airport lifts are
> usually pretty big.

Far too many supermarkets and airports only have escalators or very
steep travellators, both of which are a nightmare for wheelchair users.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 Jun 2009 12:27 GMT
>>> Mike Barnes:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have lifts) have
>the best ones, because they allow room for shopping trolleys.

Not quite as good as general hospitals which have lifts which can take a
a bed with a retinue of people.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Robin Bignall - 09 Jun 2009 21:56 GMT
>>>> Mike Barnes:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Not quite as good as general hospitals which have lifts which can take a
>a bed with a retinue of people.

Up to now, but probably not for much longer, hospitals are the only
place where I have to use a wheelchair.  Mike Lyle touched on it a
month or two back: the fact that modern hospitals built out of town
centres expand horizontally such that it's a long way from one
department to another. The one I visited today has its lifts some 200
yards from its front entrance, but that is nothing compared with one
in Essex that a friend has to visit.  It has a "passageway" almost a
mile long, most of which is covered walkway connecting a linear array
of buildings.  Hospital wheelchairs themselves all appear to have been
left over from the Victorian period.
Signature

Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England

Robert Bannister - 10 Jun 2009 01:58 GMT
>>>> Mike Barnes:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Not quite as good as general hospitals which have lifts which can take a
> a bed with a retinue of people.

About the only good thing in hospitals that otherwise have carparks with
insufficient space and immensely long corridors.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 22:45 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> wouldn't be confused as often as they are? This is what you seem to
> be saying. If that's right, I'd like to know your reasoning.

"Man is the measure of all things."  Once you get up to the scale
where people have good reference objects, people's intuition kicks in.
I think that's the reason why inches and feet or feet and yards aren't
confused.  I suspect it's true that if you grow up with it you get a
feel for it, but looking historically at the sizes of units people
have come up with, there seem to be intuitively salient sizes:

  width of thumb/length of joint/index and thumb separation
  width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated
  arms outstretched/walking pace

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Mike Barnes - 07 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>   width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated
>   arms outstretched/walking pace

And that makes any other measure "silly"? Sorry, I just don't buy that.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 16:15 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> And that makes any other measure "silly"? Sorry, I just don't buy
> that.

I never called any measure silly.  As you acknowledged above.  I
thought we had moved beyond that.  We were talking about the
confusability of differences in sizes.  At 25 times as big, you're in
that realm, so the fact that you have measures from different rows
manifestly doesn't seem to be confusable even though the rows are
relatively small multiples of one another.  The further you go away
from the intuitive range, the more people tend to not be sure which
units are being used, especially when they're close together.  (E.g.,
people have no problem with seconds, minutes, and hours.  They confuse
milliseconds and microseconds all the time.)

The people who designed the metric system apparently agreed with me,
although they disagreed as to where to draw the boundary.  They took
their meter (arms outstretched) and defined subunits a factor of ten
apart for decimeter (hand span), centimeter (finger width), and
millimeter.  (And similarly factors of ten up through the "rod",
"furlong", and "mile" ranges.)  But then they switched to factors of a
thousand.  I suspect that the presence of both millimeters and
centimeters comes from those two approaches (factors of a thousand and
factors of ten through the intuitive range) rather than a notion that
it was important to have a factor of ten difference at those two
points.  But maybe I'm wrong.

But whether or not millimeters are below the cut, I'd think you'd
agree that at some level it might be strange for a designed system to
have commonly-used non-technical units even a factor of ten apart.  If
there were a prefix for 10,000th and a unit for 100 microns, I'd hope
you'd agree that there would be a lot more confusion between it and
millimeters if people used it in their everyday life, which they
probably wouldn't.  I suspect that if the meter had been in the foot
range, about a third its size, millimeters would be far less common
outside of scientific domains.

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Mike Barnes - 08 Jun 2009 17:53 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>people have no problem with seconds, minutes, and hours.  They confuse
>milliseconds and microseconds all the time.)

It's simply that people don't have difficulty using units that they've
been using all their lives. I don't think you'll find continental
Europeans getting their mm and cm mixed up. It's only people who didn't
grow up using those units that have that problem. It's not the units
themselves that are the issue, it's certain sections of the population.
I remain unconvinced by your thesis that the reason you have observed cm
and mm confused more often than inches and feet is due to an inherent
defect in the metric system, which you called silly. Called the alleged
defect silly I mean, not the system as a whole.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 18:38 GMT
> It's simply that people don't have difficulty using units that
> they've been using all their lives. I don't think you'll find
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> metric system, which you called silly. Called the alleged defect
> silly I mean, not the system as a whole.

I can deal with that.  Especially if you can deal with the fact that
someone may (as with the phrase that started this subthread) be
unconvinced that using multiples of ten for conversion factors is
necessarily a great advantage of a system when it comes to everyday
measurements.

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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 08:10 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> It's simply that people don't have difficulty using units that
>> they've been using all their lives. I don't think you'll find
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>necessarily a great advantage of a system when it comes to everyday
>measurements.

No problem, in fact I agree with you on that point. The real superiority
of a power-of-ten system of units becomes apparent only when you look
beyond "everyday measurements".

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 15:53 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> superiority of a power-of-ten system of units becomes apparent only
> when you look beyond "everyday measurements".

I can certainly have no argument with that.  (Although for many of my
non-everyday tasks, powers of two are more useful.)  "Pick a unit and
stick with it through the calculations", with prefixes as a way to
read off exponents, makes a lot of sense, and is what most people do
even with non-metric units for tasks like that.  And then possibly
apply one non-trivial conversion to the result to get it into the
appropriate flavor units.

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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 17:57 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
> The further you go away
> from the intuitive range, the more people tend to not be sure which
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "furlong", and "mile" ranges.)  But then they switched to factors of a
> thousand.

No, they didn't.  When the system was designed, all the prefixes
represented successive factors of 10 up and town from the base unit.
The factors-of-1,000 prefixes are later additions.

Here are the earliest cites in the OED1 and OED Supplement for each
of the prefixes from 10^-12 to 10^+12.  Of course, these dates only
relate to their use in English, and I haven't checked the OED Online
to see if any have been antedated since the Supplement came out.

   pico-      1915 [1]   1/1,000,000,000,000
   nano-      1947       1/1,000,000,000
   micro-     1873       1/1,000,000

   milli-     1807       1/1,000
   centi-     1801       1/100
   deci-      1801       1/10

   deca- [2]  1810       10
   hecto-     1810       100
   kilo-      1797 [3]   1,000
   myria-     1804       10,000

   mega-      1868       1,000,000
   giga-      1951       1,000,000,000
   tera-      1947       1,000,000,000,000

I think I may have read somewhere that myria-, which is now obsolete,
was an early addition and not an original part of the system; but I'm
not sure about that.

[1] The second cite is from the same 1947 source as the first cite
for nano-, leading me to think that the use in 1915 was an unofficial
or proposed use that did not catch on at the time.

[2] The spelling deka- is not mentioned at all.

[3] The definition of this one alone specifically states that it
was "introduced in French in 1795, at the institution of the Metric
system".  Note the capital letter, incidentally.  In some of the other
definitions toward the start of the alphabet, i.e. in the first-written
part of the dictionary, the expression is "the French metric system".

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 18:28 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> The further you go away
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> was an early addition and not an original part of the system; but I'm
> not sure about that.

Interesting.  I had thought that at least "micro" and "mega" had been
part of the initial spec.  The main ones have been pushed back to
1797.  From the entry for "myriametre":

   1797 _Jrnl. Nat. Philos._ Aug. 196 This usual and portative
        measure..was called metre. Proceeding..from this measure as
        the common unity, its multiples have been named by prefixing
        to the word metre, one of the Greek words deca, hecaton or
        hecto, chilia or kilo, and myria, which signify ten, a
        hundred, a thousand, and ten thousand; and its sub-multiples
        by means of the Latin prefixes deci, centi, milli.

I was apparently mistaken.  Millimeters (or perhaps small-denominator
fractions of them) were probably seen as as far down as you'd have to
go.

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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 20:29 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> No, they didn't.  When the system was designed, all the prefixes
>> represented successive factors of 10 up and town from the base unit.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> I haven't checked the OED Online to see if any have been antedated
>> since the Supplement came out.

Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Interesting.

Thanks.

> The main ones have been pushed back to 1797.

Not surprising.  Thanks for checking.

> From the entry for "myriametre":
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>          hundred, a thousand, and ten thousand; and its sub-multiples
>          by means of the Latin prefixes deci, centi, milli.

I wonder if the reason they stopped at 1/1,000 and 10,000 is that Latin
and Greek didn't have single words for numbers larger than 1,000 and
10,000 respectively!

> I was apparently mistaken.  Millimeters (or perhaps small-denominator
> fractions of them) were probably seen as as far down as you'd have to
> go.

The other point is that the limited range of prefixes would (I presume)
have been an issue in determining how large to make the two base units.
If what we call the centimeter had been the base unit of length, as in
the later CGS metric system, then applying myria- to this would have
produced what we actually call the hectometer, which at about 330 feet
or 1/16 mile is an inconveniently small unit for inter-city distances,
whereas in 1795 where was little use for a unit 100 times smaller than
a millimeter.

Similarly, if what we call the kilogram had been the base unit of
weight or mass, as in the later MKS or SI system, then applying milli-
to this would have produced what we call the gram, an inconveniently
large unit for accurate measurement of things like drugs or coins.
(On the other hand, applying kilo- would have produced what we now call
a megagram or tonne or metric ton, and that *is* a convenient-sized unit
that might better have been fitted into the original system.)  (I don't
know how old the names "tonne" and "metric ton" for it are, by the way.)

The invention of additional prefixes has freed us from these constraints.
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Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 05:05 GMT
> Millimeters (or perhaps small-denominator
> fractions of them) were probably seen as as far down as you'd have to
> go.

A millimeter is intermediate in size between the ligne (1/144 of the pied du
roi) and the point (1/12 of the ligne).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_units_of_measurement

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J. J. Lodder - 08 Jun 2009 22:09 GMT
> I never called any measure silly.  As you acknowledged above.  I
> thought we had moved beyond that.  We were talking about the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> it was important to have a factor of ten difference at those two
> points.  But maybe I'm wrong.

The idea that only powers of 10^3 should have prefixes
is a recent invention.

> But whether or not millimeters are below the cut, I'd think you'd
> agree that at some level it might be strange for a designed system to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> range, about a third its size, millimeters would be far less common
> outside of scientific domains.

It had been decided that the metre should be about yard size
before the definition  in terms the earth was invented.
(as the seconds pendulum)
Not a bad choice, about midway (logarithmically)
in the dimensions that were practically measurable at the time.

Jan
Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:29 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>    width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated
>    arms outstretched/walking pace

Apart from "hands" for horses and "feet", it was a long time before I
knew about the relationship between the old measurements and the size of
some ancient king's body. "Feet" still puzzle me.

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J. J. Lodder - 08 Jun 2009 09:17 GMT
> > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>    width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated
>    arms outstretched/walking pace

Sure, no reason at all why a centurion's helmet, wagon, castellum,
or distance to Rome should be measured in the same unit.

Jan
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:09 GMT
>In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote
>>(And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>concerned with the population that your general impressions were based
>on, which is mainly American isn't it?

I'm the poster, an American, and it was a pure dum-dum. I've been
familiar with metric measurements since the early 1950s and my
face turned a bit red realizing what I had done.

I think my mind got a bit muddled because I relized that most
metric engineering work is done in millimeters, even for large
objects such as locomotives. So, since sidewalks are a minor form
of engineering my head was thinking 25.4 even as I meant
centimeters.

In retrospect I found I could no longer remember if we had
changed our specs to cm or mm.

As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
in some industries by using only inches and decimals of an inch.
Thus, a drawing of a 1' 3-3/8" part will be labeled "15.38-in" or
"15.37-in" with appropiate tolerances noted. Default tolerance is
plus and minus one in the last place shown. Using "15.375 inches"
implies an accuracy of a thousandth of an inch, and would only be
used where that precision is require.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 18:55 GMT
> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> implies an accuracy of a thousandth of an inch, and would only be
> used where that precision is require.

So 15.37-in for 15 3/8 in means that the tolerance is .015" down and
.005" up?

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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 19:23 GMT
>> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
>> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>So 15.37-in for 15 3/8 in means that the tolerance is .015" down and
>.005" up?

No. It means the part must be between 15.36 and 15.38. Plus and
minus one in the last digit. This means 9.8 is different from
9.80. The former is to be between 9.7 and 9.9; the latter between
9.79 and 9.81.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 20:11 GMT
>>> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
>>> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 9.80. The former is to be between 9.7 and 9.9; the latter between
> 9.79 and 9.81.

I was misled by your calling it a 1' 3-3/8" part.  To me, that's
15.375" with some tolerance.  If the tolerance range goes down to
15.36" and up to 15.38", either it's an asymmetric tolerance, or you
really meant 15.37", not 1' 3-3/8".  In particular, if I'm buying from
somebody spec'ing at 15 3/8", I'm going to need a supplier that gives
tolerances of 0.005" or less, because anything wider might be too
big.  (If they spec at 15.37", of course, I'm fine with tolerances of
0.01".)

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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:06 GMT
>>>> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
>>>> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>I was misled by your calling it a 1' 3-3/8" part.  

Many times that's only a nominal size.

>To me, that's
>15.375" with some tolerance.  If the tolerance range goes down to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>tolerances of 0.005" or less, because anything wider might be too
>big.  

So you are actually calling out a nominal size of 15 3/8"; the
part is not going to be that size and you wouldn't want it to be
exactly 15 3/8; mating a female and male part made to exactly the
same size is difficult. You have to allow some space for moving
them together or else the parts will bind. Although soemtimes you
do want something like this. For instance, ball bearings are
always mounted with a press fit where the shaft is slightly
larger than the internal diameter of the bearing.

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Paul Wolff - 06 Jun 2009 23:06 GMT
>On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:11:36 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
><kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>always mounted with a press fit where the shaft is slightly
>larger than the internal diameter of the bearing.

Not in a conventional bicycle headset, to give one counter-example.

Which is my way of pointing out that 'ball bearing' is a general term
for any kind of bearing based on a ring of balls rolling around a
race[1], and what Dave Hatunen is referring to is only one kind of
ball-bearing assembly with an inner bearing race which is a press fit
over a shaft. So it's a bearing race that sometimes is a press fit, not
every ball bearing.

[1] Nothing to do with the British Education Secretary and wannabee
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
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Garrett Wollman - 07 Jun 2009 04:18 GMT
>As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
>in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
>in some industries by using only inches and decimals of an inch.

ObEnglishUsage: "Imperial" != "U.S. Customary".

-GAWollman

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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:12 GMT
>>As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another
>>in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved
>>in some industries by using only inches and decimals of an inch.
>
>ObEnglishUsage: "Imperial" != "U.S. Customary".

Thus the quote marks.

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Skitt - 05 Jun 2009 18:22 GMT
<huge snippage>

>> Also "everyone" knew that for small distances you use cm. So the
>> first thought was that an inch was 25.4 cm.
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> primary conversion factor, unless that was how it was taught before I
> learned it.

I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking
countries.  The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers,
meters, and centimeters, with fractions added as necessary.  Millimeters
came into play only for very small distances.  I guess, things have changed.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 18:50 GMT
> I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking
> countries.  The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers,
> meters, and centimeters, with fractions added as necessary.
> Millimeters came into play only for very small distances.  I guess,
> things have changed.

I would guess, based on German recipes from that era I've seen, that
your usual kitchen fluid measurements were in deciliters (and
fractions), which, at about half a cup is a useful size, as opposed to
the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe
predominates these days in the UK.

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 07 Jun 2009 16:19 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:

> I would guess, based on German recipes from that era I've seen, that
> your usual kitchen fluid measurements were in deciliters (and
> fractions), which, at about half a cup is a useful size, as opposed to
> the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe
> predominates these days in the UK.

Current Danish recipes have fluid measurements in dl. When I mix batter
for a small batch of crepes, I use one egg, 1 dl wheat flour, 1½ dl
milk, a pinch of salt and a teaspoon of sugar. The teaspoon measure is 5
ml, but I don't think of it that way when measuring out the sugar.

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Leslie Danks - 07 Jun 2009 17:53 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> milk, a pinch of salt and a teaspoon of sugar. The teaspoon measure is 5
> ml, but I don't think of it that way when measuring out the sugar.

I've had a look in a few (modern) German language cooking books. All the
weights up to one kilogram are given in grams.

Volumes are given either in ml or in fractions of a litre (1/2 l, 1/4 l,
1/8 l); one book I found uses both systems, but not AFAIK in the same
recipe. EL (tablespoon = approx. 15 ml) and TL (teaspoon = 5 ml) are used
for smaller quantities.

I also found an "heirloom" - a book on South German cooking, published in
1902. Quantities are given in decilitres and decagrams. Interestingly,
the decagram (abbr. "Deka") is still used for buying sausage, cheese,
etc.

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John Holmes - 10 Jun 2009 12:06 GMT
>> I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking
>> countries.  The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe
> predominates these days in the UK.

It's no great problem using millilitres, especially when they nearly
always come in round multiples of five: 5, 10, 25, 100, 250 etc.

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Mike Barnes - 10 Jun 2009 14:06 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>I would guess, based on German recipes from that era I've seen, that
>your usual kitchen fluid measurements were in deciliters (and
>fractions), which, at about half a cup is a useful size, as opposed to
>the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe
>predominates these days in the UK.

Speaking for myself, "375 ml" would work better than "3 3/4 dl",
especially if I had to multiply or divide it.

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 19:45 GMT
> I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking
> countries.  The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers,
> meters, and centimeters, with fractions added as necessary.  Millimeters
> came into play only for very small distances.  I guess, things have changed.

Or things are different in countries like the UK where metric is a
recent arrival.  I think this is more likely.  Is there anyone reading
this thread who lives in continental Europe now, or has recently?
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Peter Brandt Nielsen - 06 Jun 2009 14:47 GMT
> > I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking
> > countries.  The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> recent arrival.  I think this is more likely.  Is there anyone reading
> this thread who lives in continental Europe now, or has recently?

For everyday measurements, in Denmark, it strikes me as unusual to use
millimeters for anything longer than a few centimeters. If I saw a
computer printer measured in millimeters I would convert the numbers
to centimeters in my head and think of them in those terms. Similarly,
milliliters might be used on food packaging, but in a recipe I would
expect deciliters and liters.

If those of us who are accustomed to metric measurements are less
likely to make mistakes about inches and feet than the other way
around it might be because of traditional measuements in our own
countries. I'm Danish and in my twenties, but I'm aware of the old
measurements of "tomme" and "fod", which were used before the metric
system and were roughly equivalent to English inches and feet.
("Tomme" is still used for select items such as television screens,
now apparently based on the English length of an inch.)
Ian Jackson - 06 Jun 2009 16:15 GMT
In message
<fa618e31-c24c-466b-aa8d-4cfedc5e9760@j18g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
Peter Brandt Nielsen <peterbrandtnielsen@gmail.com> writes

>> > I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking
>> > countries.  The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>milliliters might be used on food packaging, but in a recipe I would
>expect deciliters and liters.

The pedantic use of mm seems silly to me.

I first came across this in the early 80s, when the company I worked for
had to get planning permission to attached a sign (bearing the company
name) to the front wall of the office. It was probably not long after we
'went metric' for many things.

The company draughtsman produced a detailed drawing of what was planned
(showing the front elevation of the building and the position of the
sign. The width of the building was about 60 feet (say 18m?), but this
(and all the other dimensions) had to be indicated accurately in mm.
Obviously the local council planning committee liked big numbers (or
didn't understand decimals).

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 07 Jun 2009 16:16 GMT
Peter Brandt Nielsen skrev:

> For everyday measurements, in Denmark, it strikes me as unusual to use
> millimeters for anything longer than a few centimeters.

Exactly. But that is for everyday measurements. For engineering and
construction, millimeters are the norm for measurements up to several
meters - perhaps even up to 20 m. I used to work in the railroad
business, and I think of the standard railroad gauge as 1435 (mm of
course), but I am 188 tall (cm of course).

Similarly, I think of my car as being 385 cm long (or 3.85 m), but it
says 3850 (mm of course) in the specs.

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Jens Brix Christiansen

Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 20:34 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
> (Confusing 8' and 8" is another story, but that's a
> matter of not remembering which symbol goes with which unit.)

In fact, as well as feet and inches, the single and double prime
are also used to represent minutes and seconds of arc and sometimes
also for minutes and seconds of time, and I've seen them used for
hours and minutes of time, so there's a nice way to be confusing!
And according to Russ Rowlett's site, they are also used sometimes
for minutes and seconds of right ascension, which of course are 15
times the size of the respective the arc units...
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 23:57 GMT
> Mark  wrote  on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:11:36 -0500:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age that's
> their problem, in my opinion.

It's not a matter of wanting to remain in the Stone Age, but rather
not wanting to invalidate millions of maps and deeds that specify
property boundaries in terms of feet and miles using an earlier
standard.  I presume that older definitions are used in the UK, too,
when interpretting old deeds, even if modern surveying practice there
uses meters and kilometers.

> It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3!

And when was that, exactly?

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Default User - 05 Jun 2009 00:06 GMT
> It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3!

<http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-legislature-on
ce-pass-a-law-saying-pi-equals-3>

Brian

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 00:43 GMT
James Silverton:
> > It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3!

"Brian":
> <http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-legislature-once-pass-a
-law-saying-pi-equals-3
>

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aux/pi.html
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Hatunen - 05 Jun 2009 02:22 GMT
> Mark  wrote  on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:11:36 -0500:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature
>deciding that PI was 3!

It wasn't Tennessee, it was Indiana in 1897. And the legislature
didn't decide it. The House passed the bill but the state Senate
had some sense and didn't.

I heartily recommend the book A History of Pi by Petr Beckmann.

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R H Draney - 05 Jun 2009 03:46 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>I heartily recommend the book A History of Pi by Petr Beckmann.

Some years ago, I found myself watching both Fritz Lang's "M", starring Peter
Lorre, and "Z", the Costa-Gavras political thriller, in the same weekend...this
got me wondering just how many major movies there are with one-letter titles....

I remain undecided whether Aronofsky's 1998 film should be included on such a
list....r

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 04:54 GMT
R.H. Draney:
> Some years ago, I found myself watching both Fritz Lang's "M", starring
> Peter Lorre, and "Z", the Costa-Gavras political thriller, in the same
> weekend...this got me wondering just how many major movies there are
> with one-letter titles....

Well, M was remade under the same title in 1951.  Other than that and pi,
I think the only "major" movie, meaning one we're likely to have heard of,
with a one-character title was $, a 1971 caper movie set in Germany and
starring Warren Beatty and Goldie Hawn.

The IMDB lists a total of 105 single-character primary titles and
8 more as alternate titles (more if you count things like working
titles or shortened titles used in advertising).  The title "pi"
does not appear as a single character on these lists because they
don't support Greek characters (at least not in their raw data files).

The most popular single-character titles are 4 and X, used 8 times
each; then 3, 5, K, and M, 7 times each; Q, 5 times; 9 and W, 4 times.
All digits have been used at least once except 0, all letters except C.
The title $ has only been used once, and likewise @ (this in 1979, so
not an Internet reference; but they have no details about what it is
about), but ? has been used 3 times.
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J. J. Lodder - 04 Jun 2009 12:49 GMT
> >In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> confused with millilitres (although it should only be 'ml').
> Ah! Is it 'mi'?

Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world.
Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.

Jan
Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 14:13 GMT
In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

>> >In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> >>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world.
>Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.

Signs in the UK also just give numbers, with the units understood.

Obviously there are exceptions everywhere.

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 04 Jun 2009 15:04 GMT
Mike Barnes skrev:
> In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:

>> Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world.
>> Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.
>
> Signs in the UK also just give numbers, with the units understood.
>
> Obviously there are exceptions everywhere.

Denmark went metric 100 years ago, before the advent of modern road
signs. Nevertheless, the Danish speed limit signs have systematically
irritated the scientifically literate driver by using an inconsistent
unit, viz. km. Happily, the newest signs have now dropped the unit, so
instead of e.g. "60 km" they now just say "60" with "km/h" understood --
like they do in all neighboring countries.

Signs giving distances to towns etc. on the highways are in numbers only
with "km" understood". Signs on motorways giving the distance to the
next exit are in meters with an explicit "m", while the distance to the
subsequent exit is in numbers only with "km" understood. The first exit
in Denmark on the Øresund link from Sweden is signed from the unusually
long distance of 5700 m; this is because the motorway goes through a 4
km long tunnel that ends only 900 m from the exit, and there is no room
for the sign in the tunnel.

Signs for maximum height, weight, width, axle weight, etc. are always
given explict units (e.g. "m", "kg" or "t").

The point of this posting is, I guess, to point out that
well-established metrication does not necessarily imply that all units
are implicit on road signs. Here is an example of the distance to the
next exit given in explicit meters. Just for kicks, I chose and example
from the Netherlands instead of Denmark:

http://www.lurling.nl/Leerlingen/Rvv/borden/k/k02.gif

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 00:50 GMT
Jens Christiansen:
> The first exit
> in Denmark on the Øresund link from Sweden is signed from the unusually
> long distance of 5700 m; this is because the motorway goes through a 4
> km long tunnel that ends only 900 m from the exit, and there is no room
> for the sign in the tunnel.

No room?  I find that hard to believe.  I've been in many tunnels that
have road signs inside them, and this one is pretty new, so it's not a
case of some old tunnel that isn't even wide enough for its traffic
lanes in modern times.

What I could believe is that there isn't room for a sign *in the same
format as used ordinarily*.
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 07 Jun 2009 22:46 GMT
Mark Brader skrev:

> What I could believe is that there isn't room for a sign *in the same
> format as used ordinarily*.

Right you are. There are variable LED signs in the tunnel, which usually
show the standard speed limit (90), but which can also show assorted
warnings and lane closures. These signs are smaller than standard and
built into "beams" in the tunnel ceiling.

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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:14 GMT
>Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world.
>Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.

Oh, well, they do that in America, too, only it's miles.

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R H Draney - 04 Jun 2009 23:13 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>>Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world.
>>Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.
>
>Oh, well, they do that in America, too, only it's miles.

There are exceptions...I remember a series of freeway signs counting down the
distance until the exit to a certain hospital...all but the last were in miles,
with the units implicit, but the last said something like "500 yds"....r

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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 23:21 GMT
Jan Lodder:
>>> Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.

Dave Hatunen:
>> Oh, well, they do that in America, too, only it's miles.

R.H. Draney:
> There are exceptions...I remember a series of freeway signs counting
> down the distance until the exit to a certain hospital...all but
> the last were in miles, with the units implicit, but the last said
> something like "500 yds".

The usual practice is that distances to the nearest whole mile are used
for destinations.  Turnoffs, lane endings, and anything else that's
normally signed only a short distance ahead are given in miles and
fractions (normally in multiples of 1/4 mile) until a distance is
reached where that won't do, and then in feet.  Yards are for football.

Same here before they changed it all to metric.
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J. J. Lodder - 06 Jun 2009 09:56 GMT
> Hatunen filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> in miles, with the units implicit, but the last said something like "500
> yds"....r

Mow that you mention it,
this does have a unit (m of course) in Europe.
The distances to the exit at which to put up signs
are not standardised though,

Jan
James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 16:30 GMT
Ian  wrote  on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:02:13 +0100:

>. It can't be 'ml', because that's
> millilitres. At school, I'm sure we used 'mls', but these days
> this could easily be confused with millilitres (although it
> should only be 'ml'). Ah! Is it 'mi'?

All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the abbreviation
for milliliter and milliliters. I forget when it was that I gave up
using "cc". However, almost always "ml" was verbalized as "mil" in the
singular and "mils" in the plural. Typically, one might say "Add another
10 mils of acetone". The scientifically obsolete "cc" unit was also
verbalized with an "s" in the plural. More accurately, I suppose the "s"
was actually a "z" sound.
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:25 GMT
> Ian  wrote  on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:02:13 +0100:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>verbalized with an "s" in the plural. More accurately, I suppose the "s"
>was actually a "z" sound.

Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic
centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined. A
long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this. The SI
now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be used, but
if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 cubic cm.

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James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 23:43 GMT
Hatunen  wrote  on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:25:13 -0700:

>> Ian  wrote  on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:02:13 +0100:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> verbalized with an "s" in the plural. More accurately, I
>> suppose the "s" was actually a "z" sound.

> Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic
> centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined.
> A long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this. The
> SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be
> used, but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000
> cubic cm.

It is true that the old cc and ml were not identical but the last time I
picked up a beaker it was marked 500 ml.

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 01:00 GMT
James Silverton:
>> All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the abbreviation
>> for milliliter and milliliters. I forget when it was that I gave up
>> using "cc". However, almost always "ml" was verbalized as "mil" in the
>> singular and "mils" in the plural. ...

I recall the same usage from my science classes in high school.

Dave Hatunen:
> Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic
> centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined. A
> long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this.

True.

> The SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be used,

False.  It shouldn't be used *for high-precision work*.

> but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 cubic cm.

True.  And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm with a
superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc".
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Hatunen - 05 Jun 2009 02:28 GMT
>James Silverton:
>>> All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the abbreviation
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>True.  

Which means it is just as precise as using cubic centimeters.
What's in a name...?

And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm with a
>superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc".

Easy for you to type. My system won't let me do that. Besides, SI
is a good guide to the metric system and defines it for a number
of professions, but it isn't binding on any of the rest of us.

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R H Draney - 05 Jun 2009 03:48 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm with a
>>superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc".
>
>Easy for you to type. My system won't let me do that.

You need a Mac...it's the key with the quotation mark on it....r

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Nick Spalding - 05 Jun 2009 08:21 GMT
R H Draney wrote, in <h0a114013ik@drn.newsguy.com>
on 4 Jun 2009 19:48:04 -0700:

> Hatunen filted:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You need a Mac...it's the key with the quotation mark on it....r

Or in Windows a little free program called AllChars from
<http://allchars.zwolnet.com/>
which allows you to construct things like that with a few keystrokes.
For example Ctrl . 3 gives ³, with Ctrl treated as a normal key, not
held down.

Although it says it only works partly on Vista I have never had it fail
for me.
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James Silverton - 05 Jun 2009 15:22 GMT
Mark  wrote  on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:00:05 -0500:

> James Silverton:
>>> All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the
>>> abbreviation for milliliter and milliliters. I forget when
>>> it was that I gave up using "cc". However, almost always
>>> "ml" was verbalized as "mil" in the singular and "mils" in
>>> the plural. ...

> I recall the same usage from my science classes in high
> school.

> Dave Hatunen:
>> Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic
>> centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined.
>> A long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this.

> True.

>> The SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be
>> used,

> False.  It shouldn't be used *for high-precision work*.

>> but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 cubic cm.

> True.  And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm
> with a superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc".

Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions
were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion
factor was 25.40005. This means that the old US mile and the current one
differ by 3.168 mm. For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m
(meters). This isn't much but is appreciable.

The old British conversion factor of 25.39998 would give a difference of
1.267 mm for the old and new miles so nationalists may deplore that the
US lost more than the British gained. I wonder if anyone knows what the
probable error would be if surveyors were to measure out 1000 miles?
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Adam Funk - 05 Jun 2009 19:08 GMT
> Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions
> were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion
> factor was 25.40005. This means that the old US mile and the current one
> differ by 3.168 mm. For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m
> (meters). This isn't much but is appreciable.

This explains why my expedition to find the Fountain of Youth went
wrong.

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tony cooper - 05 Jun 2009 21:00 GMT
>> Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions
>> were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>This explains why my expedition to find the Fountain of Youth went
>wrong.

You should have asked me.  It's about 30 minutes north of me:  
http://www.planetdeland.com/deleonsprings/

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Adam Funk - 05 Jun 2009 21:42 GMT
>>> Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions
>>> were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You should have asked me.  It's about 30 minutes north of me:  
> http://www.planetdeland.com/deleonsprings/

Hmm, I don't think I could've been 1000 km off, even though I found
was a partly derelict C19 resort, some apartments, and a disused
bowling alley.

But I see on the interwebs that Yellow Sulfur Springs is now a
"Historic Inn and Healing Spa", so maybe I wasn't as wrong as I'd
thought.

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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:16 GMT
>Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions
>were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion
>factor was 25.40005. This means that the old US mile and the current one
>differ by 3.168 mm. For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m
>(meters). This isn't much but is appreciable.

Which is, as I mentioned earlier, why the US has retained the old
conversion for survey and geodetic work in the form of the
"survey foot".

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James Silverton - 06 Jun 2009 18:20 GMT
Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700:

>> Talking about high precision, until the British and American
>> definitions were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm
>> exactly, the US conversion factor was 25.40005. This means
>> that the old US mile and the current one differ by 3.168 mm.
>> For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m (meters). This
>> isn't much but is appreciable.

> Which is, as I mentioned earlier, why the US has retained the
> old conversion for survey and geodetic work in the form of the
> "survey foot".

That doesn't alter my opinion that the custom is antediluvian,
especially since, as I said, I doubt that a surveyor coiud lay out 1000
miles withthe  accuracy necessary to detect the difference.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:36 GMT
> Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>especially since, as I said, I doubt that a surveyor coiud lay out 1000
>miles withthe  accuracy necessary to detect the difference.

These days I have little doubt they can do it. The difference is
about 13ft if my back of the envelope calcs are correct.

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James Silverton - 06 Jun 2009 19:33 GMT
Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:36:42 -0700:

>> Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>> surveyor coiud lay out 1000 miles withthe  accuracy necessary
>> to detect the difference.

> These days I have little doubt they can do it. The difference
> is about 13ft if my back of the envelope calcs are correct.

I agree that the difference is about that order of magnitude. However,
as someone who once spent a summer as a lowly member of a survey team, I
wonder about the accuracy. The survey was done forward and back and
there was a significant discrepancy over only about 20 miles.

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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:09 GMT
> Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:36:42 -0700:
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>wonder about the accuracy. The survey was done forward and back and
>there was a significant discrepancy over only about 20 miles.

Might not count for much over 20 miles; it matters most in
geodesy.

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J. J. Lodder - 06 Jun 2009 20:42 GMT
> > Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> These days I have little doubt they can do it. The difference is
> about 13ft if my back of the envelope calcs are correct.

If it matters selected positions can be measured to cm accuracy
over continental distances.
Good enough to measure continental drifts of a few cm/year,

Jan
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:13 GMT
>> > Hatunen  wrote  on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>over continental distances.
>Good enough to measure continental drifts of a few cm/year,

You're missing the point. The question is, once you measure the
distance which units are you going to use to record it? Because
of the voluminous long distance measurements already made before
the inch was set to 2.54cm, it seemed prudent to retain the old
units rather than suffer all the chaos of going back and revising
the old documents.

I assume these days that international geodetics is done to
metric units.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 18:45 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See
> <http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file).

What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator and
denominator on fractional miles.  Is that common in the UK?  For more
than just road signs?

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Nick - 04 Jun 2009 19:11 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> denominator on fractional miles.  Is that common in the UK?  For more
> than just road signs?

I'm pretty sure it is.  The typography of road signs is very carefully
laid down - a specific font was developed for it I believe.

I'm pretty sure I've seen that in other fonts though - I seem to
remember a typewriter with it.
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Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 20:19 GMT
>Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> writes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>I'm pretty sure I've seen that in other fonts though - I seem to
>remember a typewriter with it.

The font is called Transport, which hints at its purpose. The barless
fractions are designed into it. Barlessness is a legibility thing, for
occasions when drivers have little time in poor visibility.

I don't know the history of fraction-writing at large. I do know that
when I was taught them, they were to be written with a horizontal bar,
and not with a slash and everything on the same line, nor even with any
compromise by fractional lowering of the denominator after a slash.

Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol, and
what the symbology of the regular division sign of a bar with dots above
and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a fraction with
cyphers for the numerator and denominator.

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Skitt - 04 Jun 2009 20:31 GMT
Paul Wolff wrote, in small part:

> Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol, and
> what the symbology of the regular division sign of a bar with dots
> above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a
> fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator.

When I was young, in Latvia, and possibly also in Germany (I don't
remember), the division symbol was a colon.  No bar.
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Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 21:11 GMT
>Paul Wolff wrote, in small part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>When I was young, in Latvia, and possibly also in Germany (I don't
>remember), the division symbol was a colon.  No bar.

I still use that for explicit ratios, such as 4:3 or 10:1.  In the
latter case a fraction would normally not show "divided by one" and
would resolve to just "10".
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Paul

Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 21:02 GMT
> I don't know the history of fraction-writing at large. I do know
> that when I was taught them, they were to be written with a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> dots above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a
> fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator.

Somewhat surprisingly, Cajori (_A History of Mathematical Notations_,
1928) has several pages on division and fractions, but doesn't mention
forward slash other than

   In 1923 the National Committee on Mathematical Requirements voiced
   the following opinion: "Since neither ÷ nor :, as signs of
   division, plays any part in business life, it seems proper to
   consider only the needs of algebra, and to make more use of the
   fractional form and (where the meaning is clear) of the symbol /,
   and to drop the symbol ÷ in writing algebraic expressions."

The "÷" sign is cited back to Swiss mathematician Johann Heinrich
Rahn's 1659 _Teutsche Algebra_.  It didn't catch on in Switzerland,
but it did in England based on the works of John Pell, who had met
Rahn, and it came to be known as "Pell's symbol".

Cajori notes that

   The sign ÷ as a symbol for division was adopted by John Wallis and
   other English writers.  It came to be adopted regularly in Great
   Britain and the United States, but not on the European Continent.
   The only text not in the English language, known to us as using
   it, is one published in Buenos Aires; where it is given also in
   the modified form ·/·

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 05:34 GMT
Paul Wolff:
> > Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol,
> > and what the symbology of the regular division sign of a bar with
> > dots above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a
> > fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator.

Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Somewhat surprisingly, Cajori (_A History of Mathematical Notations_,
> 1928) has several pages on division and fractions, but doesn't mention
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>     fractional form and (where the meaning is clear) of the symbol /,
>     and to drop the symbol ÷ in writing algebraic expressions."

Evan looked under division, but not under fractions.

     The ordinary mode of writing fractions... is typographically
     objectionable as requiring three terraces of type.  An effort
     to remove this objection was the introduction of the solidus,
     as in a/b...  It was recommended by De Morgan in his article
     on "The Calculus of Functions", published in the "Encyclopedia
     Metropolitana" (1845).  But practically that notation occurs
     earlier in Spanish America.  In the "Gazetas de Mexico" (1784),
     page 1, Manuel Antonio Valdes used a curved line resembling
     the sign of integration...

That is, Valdes's notation for ¼ looked like something intermediate
between "1/4" and 1S4", using a diagonal line with curves at each end.

     While De Morgan recommended the solidus in 1843 [sic], he used
     a:b in his subsequent works, and as Glaisher remarks, "answers
     the purpose completely and it is free from the objection to ÷
     viz., that the pen must be twice removed from the paper in the
     course of writing it."

Cajori mentions the / again in the section on multiplication.
In 1893 Irving Stringham suggested in his book "Uniplanar Algebra"
that since × means multiplication and / means division, ×/ should
mean "multiplied or divided by" (presumably by analogy with ±).

> The "÷" sign is cited back to Swiss mathematician Johann Heinrich
> Rahn's 1659 _Teutsche Algebra_.

Of course, / for division got a boost in popularity in the computer
era.  So did * for multiplication -- another symbol that Rahn tried
in this book, but which at the time did not catch on at all!  Cajori
mentions this one one paragraph after the ×/ sign!

And so also did ^ for exponentiation -- another symbol that De Morgan
recommended in the 1845 book cites above.  In Cajori's section on
powers, he cites De Morgan's example a^{(a+bx)/(c+ex)}, which also uses
the / for division.  The {} characters are indicating grouping.

> It [÷] didn't catch on in Switzerland,
> but it did in England based on the works of John Pell, who had met
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>     it, is one published in Buenos Aires; where it is given also in
>     the modified form ·/·

Before ÷ was a division sign, it was a minus sign.  The minus sign we
know was introduced around 1480-1500, but apparently some writers
wanted something that didn't look so much like a dash, and they added
one or more dots to the minus sign.  The most common form of this
was exactly our ÷ sign, which dates from 1525.  Cajori:

     With the beginning of the seventeenth century ÷ for "minus"
     appears more frequently, but, as far as we have been able
     to ascertain, only in German, Swiss, and Dutch books.
     A Dutch teacher, Jacob Vander Schuere, in his "Arithmetica"
     (Haarlem, 1600), defines + and -, but lapses into using ÷
     in the solution of problems.
   ...
     The vitality of this redundant symbol of subtraction is
     shown by its continued existence during the eighteenth century.
   ...
     In fact, in Scandinavian countries the sign ÷ for "minus" is
     found occasionally in the twentieth century.  For instance,
     in a Danish scientific publication of the year 1915, a
     chemist expresses a range of temperatures in the words
     "fra +18° C. til ÷18° C."

(That's "from" and "to".)
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 05:59 GMT
> Paul Wolff:
>> > Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol,
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Evan looked under division, but not under fractions.

Sigh.  I did look under fractions, but I forgot (as I tend to) that
his index gives you paragraph numbers rather than page numbers.  The
section numbers for fractions correspond to the page numbers for
division.  Had it not seemed reasonable, I probably would have
noticed.  Thanks.

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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 04 Jun 2009 19:13 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>denominator on fractional miles.  Is that common in the UK?  For more
>than just road signs?

My cautious answer is that it is not common outside the road sign
context.

Signature

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(in alt.usage.english)

Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 19:25 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator and
>denominator on fractional miles.

That's very observant of you.

>Is that common in the UK?  For more
>than just road signs?

It's just road signs. And it's a work of genius, IMO.

  <url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>

That URL is a test for your newsreader. If it flunks the test, try this:

 http://tinyurl.com/7a34lj

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Default User - 04 Jun 2009 22:46 GMT
>    <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
>
> That URL is a test for your newsreader.

It would have worked in XanaNews without the "url: " part. As long as
directly enclosed in <> the trailing parenthesis will be part of the
clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to
selected link feature.

Brian

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 23:44 GMT
>>    <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to
> selected link feature.

I wonder why they implemented it to know about the angle brackets but
not the "URL:", since that's part of what the RFC specifies.

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Default User - 05 Jun 2009 00:02 GMT
> >>    <url:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I wonder why they implemented it to know about the angle brackets but
> not the "url: ", since that's part of what the RFC specifies.

I don't know.

Brian

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Nick - 05 Jun 2009 07:31 GMT
>>    <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to
> selected link feature.

It worked beautifully in Gnus; it tends to spot URLs pretty well, but
gets fooled by the brackets (parentheses).  Even angle brackets don't
help, but that url: did the trick.  I'll remember that.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 18:10 GMT
>>>    <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> gets fooled by the brackets (parentheses).  Even angle brackets don't
> help, but that url: did the trick.  I'll remember that.

The other nice thing about the standard (which Gnus follows) is that
line breaks and leading whitespace on lines between the brackets are
to be removed, so you can break things up to be readable.
(Unfortunately, it can't handle line-split URLs that have been
quoted.)

Another nifty feature of Gnus is

   gnus-article-unsplit-urls (W u)

which can often stitch together unbracketted URLs that have been split
across lines so that they can be clicked.

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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 09:14 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote:

>>    <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to
>selected link feature.

Did XanaNews insert that space after the colon? I certainly didn't. I
have no idea whether it makes any difference to the functionality.

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Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Default User - 05 Jun 2009 17:24 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >
> > It would have worked in XanaNews without the "url:  " part.

> Did XanaNews insert that space after the colon? I certainly didn't. I
> have no idea whether it makes any difference to the functionality.

It must have. Interesting. I might flag that on their bug site,
although to be fair I run an older version.

Brian

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Nick Spalding - 05 Jun 2009 08:36 GMT
Mike Barnes wrote, in
<fi3Rqs9XGBKKFwS$@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>
on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:25:27 +0100:

>    <url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
>
> That URL is a test for your newsreader. If it flunks the test, try this:

Agent passes the test.  It invokes IE7 as intended.
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Amethyst Deceiver - 05 Jun 2009 15:11 GMT
> It's just road signs. And it's a work of genius, IMO.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>   http://tinyurl.com/7a34lj

Gravity lost the URL after the ( which is, I suspect, a Fail.

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My accent may vary

James Hogg - 04 Jun 2009 19:38 GMT
Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>denominator on fractional miles.  Is that common in the UK?  For more
>than just road signs?

I don't think so. I remember seeing that way of writing 1/2 the
first time I was ever on a motorway and thinking what a neat way
it was to eliminate the slash. It was different from the old road
signs:

http://www.freefoto.com/images/41/01/41_01_9---Old-Road-Traffic-Signs_web.jpg

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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 01:05 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum:
> What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator and
> denominator on fractional miles.  Is that common in the UK?  For more
> than just road signs?

Some screen fonts I've used make single-character fractions (¼, ½, ¾)
that way, although not the one on the terminal I'm using now.  When
you don't have many pixels to work with, it can be a good idea.
I can't remember seeing it done in printed matter anywhere.
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Frank ess - 05 Jun 2009 05:04 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> When you don't have many pixels to work with, it can be a good idea.
> I can't remember seeing it done in printed matter anywhere.

I can't remember why I looked for and found a "transport" and a
"transport heavy" font, apparently UK usage, and there are special
characters that result in slashless fractions, in TruType Word
application.

Quote:

Special Characters
==================
In Transport Heavy, all the alphanumeric characters are as normal, but
there are also a few special characters available.

# = Space between route letter (A,B or M) and number, e.g. A 702
^ = "Get in lane" arrow
< = Arrow right
> = Arrow left
/ = /
\ = higher
! = Feet
" = Inches
Alt + 0188 = 1/4
Alt + 0189 = 1/2
Alt + 0190 = 3/4

Footnote
========
This font was made by Nathaniel Porter from images in the Department
for Transport Proposed Revision of the Traffic Signs Regulations and
General Directions documentation which can be found here:
http://www.roads.dft.gov.uk/consult/traffic/regulations/10.htm

This font can be found online at http://www.allan-online.co.uk
"
It may not be used for commerical purposes.

End Quote.

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Frank ess

bulland@gmail.com - 04 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See
> <http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file).

I still maintain that signs for services use the "m": see
http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/19496/wm/pd1662970.jpg, for
example.

Also http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/services/pease/image5.jpg,
though that's a bit different as it involves a mixed number (1 1/2).
Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 09:15 GMT
In alt.usage.english,  wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Also http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/services/pease/image5.jpg,
>though that's a bit different as it involves a mixed number (1 1/2).

I wonder if signs for service areas, being commercial enterprises, are
outside the system.

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Robert Bannister - 05 Jun 2009 01:40 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> for miles is the correct symbol for miles. By definition. The UK highway
> sign style might be non-standard but it's not "wrong" AFAIK.

But it could be very confusing, especially as distances less than a mile
would more naturally be taken to be metres...
...Hmm, I've just looked at your link and changed my mind, since I don't
believe anybody would think a signpost with "1/2 m" could mean "half a
metre".

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Rob Bannister

Hatunen - 03 Jun 2009 21:47 GMT
>Hatunen skrev:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg

Those are all dual-system signs. The signs on I-19 are metric
only.

I see there's a Wikepedia article about I-19:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_19

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Garrett Wollman - 03 Jun 2009 19:45 GMT
>We have a metric Interstate highway south of Tucson to the
>Mexican border. Distance signs are metric but the speed limit
>signs say, e.g., 65mph. The signs can's say it in kph for the
>simple reason that the law does not.
>
>Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification

It's more complicated than that, on both counts.

(a) The specifications for signage on Federal-Aid Highways are given
in the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, which is
incorporated by reference into the regulations of the Federal Highway
Administration.  States are, however, permitted to adopt their own
local signing manuals, so long as they are consistent with the
standards set forth in the MUTCD.  The Federal MUTCD includes complete
specifications for both systems of units, and a companion volume,
Standard Highway Signs, includes patterns in both systems for all
types of signs.  They both include signs for speed limits in km/h
(note correct unit symbol).  I can't speak for ADOT policy or state
law with respect to posting metric speed limits (although I do know
that Arizona uses the "85th percentile rule" as recommended in the
MUTCD).

(b) About ten years ago, some states started putting projects out to
bid which were designed using metric units (but still signed in
U.S. Customary units), once the then-new MUTCD edition came out which
gave specific design standards for metric projects.  The highway
contractors raised a holy ruckus in Congress at the thought that they
might have to learn a new system of units, and as a result, the next
Federal highway bill (TEA-21[1] if I remember correctly) contained a
rider that prohibited the use of Federal money on metric highway
designs or signage.  Sigh.

-GAWollman

[1] All highway bills in recent years have had the letters "TEA"
backronymed into them somehow, taking as a model the Intermodal
Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991 (ISTEA), pronounced "ice
tea".  The Wikipedia article notes "It was preceded by the Surface
Transportation and Uniform Relocation Assistance Act of 1987 and
followed by the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century
(TEA-21) and most recently in 2005, the Safe, Accountable, Flexible,
Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU)."
(So you can see the somewhat Orwellian naming scheme used by Congress
extends well beyond the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T.A.C.T.)
Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Hatunen - 03 Jun 2009 22:10 GMT
>>We have a metric Interstate highway south of Tucson to the
>>Mexican border. Distance signs are metric but the speed limit
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>that Arizona uses the "85th percentile rule" as recommended in the
>MUTCD).

It's also more complicated than that. The states are free to do
as they like with their highways (even the Interstates are, in
fact, state highways). The federal government has rules regarding
all sorts of minutiae but the state are no legally bound to these
rules if they are wiling to forego federal monetary aid. States
are beginning to assert their sovereignty here in some case,
although I certainly wouldn't want them to go back to the
bewildering varieties of signage and striping they used when I
was first driving (OK, We're in New York state. What do the solid
and dashed white lines in the middle of the road mean here?)

>(b) About ten years ago, some states started putting projects out to
>bid which were designed using metric units (but still signed in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>rider that prohibited the use of Federal money on metric highway
>designs or signage.  Sigh.

So use state money. The point for Arizona is that the signs were
adopted back when thr feds were pushing to go metric. Now it's
going to cost money to remove them, and a lot of us are saying,
why bother? Especially since it's a main coorridor for Mexicans
entering the USA.

I was working for the Palo Alto, CA, Public Works Engineering
Department 15-20 years ago. We went had a furious push to adopt
our standards and specifications to California's standards and
specifications, which were now done in "hard" metric [1] at teh
insistence of the feds. We had a team rewriting our standards. I
was going to be required and we'd better be ready. Then, it all
just sort of went away, including the state's standards and
specifications.

[1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions
and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk
remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm.

"Hard" metrification means adopting metric standards as they
might be used in the rest of teh world. The sidewalk would now
be, perhaps, 150cm wide. The problem is that you need to have
suppliers also using hard metrics, e.g., no more 8-inch steel
beams.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Garrett Wollman - 03 Jun 2009 22:18 GMT
>It's also more complicated than that. The states are free to do
>as they like with their highways (even the Interstates are, in
>fact, state highways). The federal government has rules regarding
>all sorts of minutiae but the state are no legally bound to these
>rules if they are wiling to forego federal monetary aid.

I believe the phrase you're not thinking of here is "Commerce Clause".

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 00:06 GMT
>>It's also more complicated than that. The states are free to do
>>as they like with their highways (even the Interstates are, in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>I believe the phrase you're not thinking of here is "Commerce Clause".

If the commerce clause were invoked it would make the federal
rules mandatory and the states would not be able to opt out even
at the cost of losing federal highway money. There could be an
argument for this, but it is not apt at the present save for
certain rules regarding the likes of interstate trucking.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

R H Draney - 04 Jun 2009 00:46 GMT
Hatunen filted:

>"Hard" metrification means adopting metric standards as they
>might be used in the rest of teh world. The sidewalk would now
>be, perhaps, 150cm wide. The problem is that you need to have
>suppliers also using hard metrics, e.g., no more 8-inch steel
>beams.

I'd say that marks a complete 3.14 radian change in policy....r

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Jens Brix Christiansen - 04 Jun 2009 08:35 GMT
Hatunen skrev:

> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions
> and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> suppliers also using hard metrics, e.g., no more 8-inch steel
> beams.

Sometimes you can get away with interpreting both standards as hard. The
standard railroad gauge is 1435 mm in "hard" metric units and 4'8½" in
"hard" traditional units. The difference is .1 mm, which fortunately is
well within the overall tolerance for railroad gauges.

Signature

Jens Brix Christiansen

Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 11:29 GMT
Jens Christiansen:
> Sometimes you can get away with interpreting both standards as hard. The
> standard railroad gauge is 1435 mm in "hard" metric units and 4'8½" in
> "hard" traditional units. The difference is .1 mm, which fortunately is
> well within the overall tolerance for railroad gauges.

True.  In fact, on some railways they actually use 4' 8 3/8" or 1432 mm.
The wheel flanges are actually 4'8¼" apart, and the closer-set rails give
better riding behavior as long as the track is maintained to a higher
precision than would be necessary with 4'8½" gauge track.
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Mark Brader          "They are taking to the new methods
Toronto               like a duck takes to stock trading."
msb@vex.net                                            --Mark Leeper

Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 11:25 GMT
Dave Hatunen:
> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions
> and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk
> remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm.

Want to try that again?
Signature

Mark Brader            "Thus the metric system did not really catch on
Toronto                 in the States, unless you count the increasing
msb@vex.net             popularity of the 9 mm bullet."  -- Dave Barry

John Kane - 04 Jun 2009 14:42 GMT
> Dave Hatunen:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Want to try that again?

Why? I LIKE wide sidewalks.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Skitt - 04 Jun 2009 18:36 GMT
> Dave Hatunen:

>> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions
>> and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk
>> remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm.
>
> Want to try that again?

Mm ...
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:04 GMT
>Dave Hatunen:
>> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions
>> and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk
>> remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm.

>Want to try that again?

OK. "1524mm".

Signature

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be - 03 Jun 2009 22:24 GMT
> In article <j9dd259a62fg1agrqc83ks7t3c3lhbv...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> (TEA-21) and most recently in 2005, the Safe, Accountable, Flexible,
> Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU)."

Would that be sung to the tune of 'Skip to My Safetea-Lu' then?  Yikes
what ever happened to boring names of legislation?!
Percival P. Cassidy - 03 Jun 2009 19:52 GMT
>> Similarly, I knew someone who took the Queensland driving licence test
>> just after metric conversion. Now all the distances (e.g., how close to
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> the annoyance and objections of many of us southern Arizonans. As
> far as I know it's the only metrically signed highway in the USA.

I think it's Glen Cove Rd. on Long Island, NY that has at one
intersection a sign giving the distance to Glen Cove in Kilometers.

Perce
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 03 Jun 2009 17:49 GMT
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
> anyway?

Or "an inch or two", said to have been converted to "2.54 or 5.08 cm"
in a document in the early days of UK metrication.
Signature

athel

Ian Jackson - 03 Jun 2009 20:39 GMT
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>  "  "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Or "an inch or two", said to have been converted to "2.54 or 5.08 cm"
>in a document in the early days of UK metrication.

I've seen "approximately one inch from the wall (25.4mm)".
Signature

Ian

Jonathan Morton - 03 Jun 2009 21:32 GMT
>>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>>  "  "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I've seen "approximately one inch from the wall (25.4mm)".

Then, of course, there's the "so-and-so breezed into town looking like a
million dollars (£584,467)" - allegedly Daily Telegraphese from a previous
generation.

Regards

Jonathan
Nick - 04 Jun 2009 07:47 GMT
>>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>>  "  "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I've seen "approximately one inch from the wall (25.4mm)".

British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of
places a few years ago.  It's a bit different from 4mph (implying a
precision of less than a boat length per hour).
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 09:53 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of
>places a few years ago.  It's a bit different from 4mph (implying a
>precision of less than a boat length per hour).

6430 mph? Seems overly generous. Presumably if they meant 6.43 km/h
that's what they'd have written.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Robert Bannister - 05 Jun 2009 02:01 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>> British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 6430 mph? Seems overly generous. Presumably if they meant 6.43 km/h
> that's what they'd have written.

I suppose "kph" doesn't conform to IS, but that's what I usually see.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2009 12:38 GMT
Robert Bannister wrote, in <78r92mF1ngkf1U1@mid.individual.net>
on Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:01:10 +0800:

> > In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
> >> British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I suppose "kph" doesn't conform to IS, but that's what I usually see.

The RoI changed its speed limits to metric a couple of years ago, the
signs have km/h on them.  The distances were all changed to metric many
years ago.

<http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://viaterra.net/photos/ireland/near-cork/
only-in-ireland.jpg&imgrefurl=http://viaterra.net/photopages/ireland/Ireland2004
-nearcork.htm&usg=__dLq3YYwC2g_cKetTF6rDcPpDtSE=&h=500&w=450&sz=99&hl=en&start=5
&tbnid=giuqzmtdqL3qBM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=117&prev=/images%3Fq%3Direland%2B%2522speed
%2Blimit%2522%2Bsign%26as_st%3Dy%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1
>
<http://tinyurl.com/nf72s7>
Signature

Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE

Bob Martin - 04 Jun 2009 07:19 GMT
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>--
>athel

UK metrication?  I'll look forward to that.
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 04 Jun 2009 09:26 GMT
>>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> UK metrication?  I'll look forward to that.

Well yes. I wondered whether to refer to the slowness of the process in
my earlier post. (Faster than in the USA, though.)
Signature

athel

James Hogg - 04 Jun 2009 11:50 GMT
Quoth Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel_cb@yahoo.co.uk>, and I quote:

>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Or "an inch or two", said to have been converted to "2.54 or 5.08 cm"
>in a document in the early days of UK metrication.

Give them 2.54 cm and they'll take 1.609 km.

Signature

James

stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be - 03 Jun 2009 22:21 GMT
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
> anyway?

What happened to the missing F, anyway?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 04 Jun 2009 00:08 GMT
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>What happened to the missing F, anyway?

There was an unfortunate accident. Instead of being decimalised it was
decimated.

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Rambler III - 14 Jun 2009 01:50 GMT
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
> anyway?

7000 meters is 22,965.833 feet.

If you're using a tape measure, it's 22,965 feet,  9.996 inches.
Skitt - 14 Jun 2009 02:06 GMT
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> If you're using a tape measure, it's 22,965 feet,  9.996 inches.

I get 22,965.879265 feet, or 22,965 feet and 10.55118 inches.

Call it 23,000 feet, though.
Signature

Skitt (AmE)

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 14 Jun 2009 16:43 GMT
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>If you're using a tape measure, it's 22,965 feet,  9.996 inches.

That's one heck of a tape measure!

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Hatunen - 15 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>7000 meters is 22,965.833 feet.

If you're using survey feet. If you're using the definition of a
foot as exactly .3048 meters, 7000 meters is 22,965.879 feet.

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  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
  *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
  * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 14 Jun 2009 07:52 GMT
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
> anyway?

There was a striking example of this in a television programme about
global warming  I was watching a few minutes ago. The commentary (in
French) referred to a volcanic eruption 80000 years ago that had sent
ash and dust into the atmosphere to a height of 34 km. But no one was
around at the time with balloons to measure the height, so how did they
get it to within 1 km? Then I thought that maybe it was a trnslation
from English, but 34 km doen't seem to correspond to a round number of
feet or miles. Furlongs? Rods, poles or perches?

Signature

athel

R H Draney - 14 Jun 2009 08:06 GMT
Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:

>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>from English, but 34 km doen't seem to correspond to a round number of
>feet or miles. Furlongs? Rods, poles or perches?

Maybe by inference, because they knew it reached the ozone layer, which
Wikipedia says is at about that height?...r

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Mark Brader - 14 Jun 2009 12:16 GMT
> There was a striking example of this in a television programme about
> global warming  I was watching a few minutes ago. The commentary (in
> French) referred to a volcanic eruption 80000 years ago that had sent
> ash and dust into the atmosphere to a height of 34 km. ... I thought
> that maybe it was a trnslation from English, but 34 km doen't seem
> to correspond to a round number of feet or miles.

Well, it's 110,000 feet rounded to the nearest whole kilometer, but
110,000 also seems too precise to be the original number.  I wonder
about a round-trip translation.  Maybe the original number was 35 km,
translated to 21.75 miles, truncated to 21 miles instead of rounding
to 22, and then back to metric.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 14 Jun 2009 18:41 GMT
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals,
> anyway?

I should have remembered this earlier, before everyone got tired of
this thread, but this is acartoon that I liked a lot when I first saw
it:

http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem109/

The page doesn't acknowledge the artist. I think it was B. Kliban.

Signature

athel

R H Draney - 15 Jun 2009 00:05 GMT
Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:

>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>The page doesn't acknowledge the artist. I think it was B. Kliban.

Unless you're talking about the "Joe Camel" thing, I don't see the cartoon
you're talking about...and that's not Kliban....r

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A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 06:51 GMT
Quoth R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net>, and I quote:

>Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Unless you're talking about the "Joe Camel" thing, I don't see the cartoon
>you're talking about...and that's not Kliban....r

No, Kliban's cartoons look like this:

http://www.yahoodrummers.com/davey/kliban/images/tf_stickbook.jpg
http://www.norreg.dk/tok/logicman2.gif
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2925429669_1c2fd971dc.jpg?v=0
http://www.blackjelly.com/Mag/gallery/kliban3.GIF

Signature

James

Athel Cornish-Bowden - 15 Jun 2009 07:56 GMT
> Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Unless you're talking about the "Joe Camel" thing, I don't see the cartoon
> you're talking about...and that's not Kliban....r

I left the end off the URL. Try

     http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem109/Metric.html

If that doesn't work try googling images for "exchanging feet for
meters" (without quotes), which is how I found it yesterday. It should
come up at about No. 8. If you include "kliban" in the search it won't
find it.

Signature

athel

James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 08:03 GMT
Quoth Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>, and I
quote:

>> Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>      http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem109/Metric.html

Now that *is* Kliban.

Signature

James

R H Draney - 15 Jun 2009 09:44 GMT
James Hogg filted:

>Quoth Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>, and I
>quote:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Now that *is* Kliban.

If I'd had the title I would have known which cartoon you were describing even
without the full URL, and yes, it certainly is Kliban....

I often find myself feeling like Salvatore Quanucci....r

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