How many feet in a meter?
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Bob G - 03 Jun 2009 03:00 GMT From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane:
" "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966 feet)," rench Prime Minister Francois Fillon told lawmakers in parliament Tuesday. "
About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, anyway?
Mark Brader - 03 Jun 2009 04:44 GMT Bob G.:
> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > About 23,000 feet maybe? Usually the next thing that happens is that someone does round it to "23,000 feet", and then a Canadian paper picks it up, converts it back to metric, and quotes Fillon as saying that the depths "reach up to 7,010 metres".
Incidentally, I like the bit about depths reaching up.
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James Silverton - 03 Jun 2009 14:56 GMT Mark wrote on Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:44:25 -0500:
> Bob G.: >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> About 23,000 feet maybe?
> Usually the next thing that happens is that someone does round > it to "23,000 feet", and then a Canadian paper picks it up, > converts it back to metric, and quotes Fillon as saying that > the depths "reach up to 7,010 metres".
> Incidentally, I like the bit about depths reaching up. The US National Park Service is also helpful to foreign visitors. I have seen a sign with "Viewpoint 1/2 mile (804.7 m)".
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Percival P. Cassidy - 03 Jun 2009 14:56 GMT > " "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather > conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, > anyway? You *want* the same kind of idiocy that appeared in Australian newspapers for quite a while after the conversion to the metric system? E.g., "The suspect was approximately 175.26cm in height...." I called it "delusions of accuracy." I assume that somebody had reported the suspect's height as "approximately 5ft 9in", and somebody had converted this to an exact metric equivalent.
Similarly, I knew someone who took the Queensland driving licence test just after metric conversion. Now all the distances (e.g., how close to a corner may one park?) were no longer nice round numbers of feet but expressed in metres and two decimal places. Where the old answer was "10 ft," the new expected answer was "3.05 metres"; "3 metres" was not an acceptable answer.
Perce
John Kane - 03 Jun 2009 16:59 GMT On Jun 3, 9:56 am, "Percival P. Cassidy" <nob...@notmyISP.invalid> wrote:
> > " "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather > > conditions and in a zone where depths reach up to 7,000 meters (22,966 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Perce We used to get that too but I don't remember seeing anything too obvious recently. With a lot of younger people having never been formally exposed to the Imperial System it may be dying out.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Hatunen - 03 Jun 2009 18:43 GMT >Similarly, I knew someone who took the Queensland driving licence test >just after metric conversion. Now all the distances (e.g., how close to >a corner may one park?) were no longer nice round numbers of feet but >expressed in metres and two decimal places. Where the old answer was "10 >ft," the new expected answer was "3.05 metres"; "3 metres" was not an >acceptable answer. I can see a real problem here. If the statute governing such parking has not been metricized and still says 10 ft, then one has to be very careful in the conversion not to alter that law.
We have a metric Interstate highway south of Tucson to the Mexican border. Distance signs are metric but the speed limit signs say, e.g., 65mph. The signs can's say it in kph for the simple reason that the law does not.
Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification, much to the annoyance and objections of many of us southern Arizonans. As far as I know it's the only metrically signed highway in the USA.
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 03 Jun 2009 19:02 GMT Hatunen skrev:
> Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification, much to > the annoyance and objections of many of us southern Arizonans. As > far as I know it's the only metrically signed highway in the USA. There used to be metric signs on Interstate 71 in Ohio, as documented here:
http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/signs/i-71-ohio.html
It seems that they have been taken down north of Columbus. I don't know if they are still up between Columbus and Cincinnati.
Anyway, there are metric signs on the Maine Turnpike:
http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg
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James Silverton - 03 Jun 2009 19:11 GMT Jens wrote on Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:02:58 +0200:
>> Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification, much >> to the annoyance and objections of many of us southern >> Arizonans. As far as I know it's the only metrically signed >> highway in the USA.
> There used to be metric signs on Interstate 71 in Ohio, as > documented here:
> http://lamar.colostate.edu/~hillger/signs/i-71-ohio.html
> It seems that they have been taken down north of Columbus. I > don't know if they are still up between Columbus and > Cincinnati.
> Anyway, there are metric signs on the Maine Turnpike:
> http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg I'm not a lawyer but I think road signs are a matter of state rather than federal law. The metric system has long been legal under federal law but its use is not directly enforceable, as far as I know. In the days when a uniform speed limit was desired by the Carter administration, reluctant states were induced to impose it by a threat of withdrawal of federal funds.
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Ian Jackson - 03 Jun 2009 20:37 GMT >Hatunen skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -literally metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m". For some reason, the highways people decided that that is the correct symbol for "miles".
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Jonathan Morton - 03 Jun 2009 21:30 GMT > In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -literally > metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m". For some > reason, the highways people decided that that is the correct symbol for > "miles". But they're not. Our distance signs merely say "London 120" or whatever - no mention of miles, metres, kilometres or anything.
When I saw the heading to this thread, my first thought was that it's six for a hexameter and five for a pentameter.
Regards
Jonathan
Ian Jackson - 03 Jun 2009 21:35 GMT >> In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight -literally >> metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m". For some [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >When I saw the heading to this thread, my first thought was that it's six >for a hexameter and five for a pentameter. I must admit that I haven't 'positively' looked lately for the 'little m', but I'm pretty sure that most distance signs do have them. Maybe it's only on motorways? I can't have imagined this constant source of annoyance to me.
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Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT >In message <hdadnUMjL6LHQLvXnZ2dnUVZ8sOdnZ2d@bt.com>, Jonathan Morton ><jonathan.mortonbutignorethispart@btinternet.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >it's only on motorways? I can't have imagined this constant source of >annoyance to me. I walked around the White Horse and Uffington Castle this evening (light until ten - wonderful) and remarked to the National Trust warden there that a finger post giving the distance to Wayland's Smithy was marked 2.2 km but also, with more precision, as 1.37 miles (sorry, I don't remember what abbreviation was used for miles). She told me that she had measured the distance herself, and the metric distance had been easy to round off, but the miles gave her a problem, whether to go up or down and mislead the walker either way; so she just gave the next significant figure, leaving it to the reader to cope with the extra information. That seemed a very practical approach to conversion.
It's remarkable how narrow the lines of the horse are, yet they can be made out over many miles.
The author here agrees: <http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earthmysteries/EMWhiteHorse.html>
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 09:59 GMT In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote:
>I walked around the White Horse and Uffington Castle this evening >(light until ten - wonderful) and remarked to the National Trust warden [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >significant figure, leaving it to the reader to cope with the extra >information. That seemed a very practical approach to conversion. Such precision is unnecessary. I'd expect to see 2 km (1 1/4 miles). Decimal miles are pretty unusual in the UK, except on the dashboard.
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Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 12:35 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Paul Wolff wrote: >>I walked around the White Horse and Uffington Castle this evening [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Such precision is unnecessary. But she had walked the distance herself, with a measuring device. She was proud of her effort and wanted the result to show her diligence.
>I'd expect to see 2 km (1 1/4 miles). >Decimal miles are pretty unusual in the UK, except on the dashboard. And, matchingly, in the output of route guidance software.
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bulland@gmail.com - 04 Jun 2009 00:14 GMT On 3 June, 21:35, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <hdadnUMjL6LHQLvXnZ2dnUVZ8sOdn...@bt.com>, Jonathan Morton > <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> writes>"Ian Jackson" <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > it's only on motorways? I can't have imagined this constant source of > annoyance to me. I think (having checked with some Google images) distances to junctions/services have the little m, but not distances to places.
Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 00:07 GMT In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - >literally metric. All distances are followed with one lower-case "m". >For some reason, the highways people decided that that is the correct >symbol for "miles". Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See <http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file).
In any event, whatever the highways people decide is the correct symbol for miles is the correct symbol for miles. By definition. The UK highway sign style might be non-standard but it's not "wrong" AFAIK.
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Ian Jackson - 04 Jun 2009 09:02 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See ><http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file). I see what you mean! I think you're right. Silly me.
>In any event, whatever the highways people decide is the correct symbol >for miles is the correct symbol for miles. By definition. The UK highway >sign style might be non-standard but it's not "wrong" AFAIK. I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the 'correct' symbol for miles. However, without looking it up, I can't think what it is. It can't be 'ml', because that's millilitres. At school, I'm sure we used 'mls', but these days this could easily be confused with millilitres (although it should only be 'ml'). Ah! Is it 'mi'?
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Leslie Danks - 04 Jun 2009 09:28 GMT [...]
> I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the > 'correct' symbol for miles. However, without looking it up, I can't > think what it is. It can't be 'ml', because that's millilitres. At > school, I'm sure we used 'mls', but these days this could easily be > confused with millilitres (although it should only be 'ml'). > Ah! Is it 'mi'? The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1992 edition) gives both "mi." and "m." (the "." distinguishing it from "m" for metre).
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Ian Jackson - 04 Jun 2009 11:07 GMT >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1992 edition) gives both "mi." >and "m." (the "." distinguishing it from "m" for metre). Noted. Thanks. I'm still trying to find other authoritative information, and stumbled across this. Very interesting, but it doesn't seem to deal with symbols. <http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Mile>
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Roland Hutchinson - 04 Jun 2009 15:10 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations (1992 edition) gives both "mi." > and "m." (the "." distinguishing it from "m" for metre). Ah, lexicographers. Give 'em a meter and they'll take a mile.
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 09:50 GMT In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote:
>>In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the >'correct' symbol for miles. They have the authority to decide what is correct for their signs, which is the point I was making.
>However, without looking it up, I can't think what it is. It can't be >'ml', because that's millilitres. At school, I'm sure we used 'mls', >but these days this could easily be confused with millilitres (although >it should only be 'ml'). >Ah! Is it 'mi'? "Correct" is a slippery concept. I believe the NIST recommends "mi", but that N stands for "National" as in a different nation. They'd also have us writing mi/h and mi/g I'm sure.
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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 11:34 GMT Ian Jackson:
> I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the > 'correct' symbol for miles. However, without looking it up, I can't > think what it is. It can't be 'ml', because that's millilitres. ... The standard for SI (metric) specifies what the correct symbols for its units are. There is no equivalent document for miles; they are defined by the government or standards authority within each country that uses them. (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that for ordinary purposes a mile is 1609.344 m.) Which means that your highways people *do* have the authority to get it wrong by using "m", instead of "mi." as we do here, unless some other branch of your government has declared otherwise.
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 11:45 GMT In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>The standard for SI (metric) specifies what the correct symbols for its >units are. There is no equivalent document for miles; they are defined [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >as we do here, unless some other branch of your government has declared >otherwise. I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing that?
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Nick - 04 Jun 2009 19:08 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote: >>The standard for SI (metric) specifies what the correct symbols for its [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing > that? Absolutely. Using "p" for metres is clearly getting it wrong and breaking the standard. But using a well established "m" for miles is no more wrong that using K for your friend Kevin when scoring a game of darts.
Interestingly, according to http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html the units should be in roman type. It's quite legitimate to read that as meaning that the sans-serif "m" used on British road signs isn't a valid SI symbol at all and so must be perfectly all right.
Nick, arguing on his own time.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 19:15 GMT > Interestingly, according to > http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/checklist.html the units should be in > roman type. It's quite legitimate to read that as meaning that the > sans-serif "m" used on British road signs isn't a valid SI symbol at all > and so must be perfectly all right. I don't see any conflict between "roman" and "sans-serif". To me, it contrasts primarily with "italic", being unslanted. The OED also contrasts it with "gothic", which also seems right.
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:37 GMT >Absolutely. Using "p" for metres is clearly getting it wrong and >breaking the standard. But using a well established "m" for miles is no >more wrong that using K for your friend Kevin when scoring a game of >darts. Unless, of course, Katherine is also competing.
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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 21:10 GMT Mark Brader:
>> Which means that your highways people >> *do* have the authority to get it wrong by using "m", instead of "mi." >> as we do here... Mike Barnes:
> I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for > "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing > that? In the sense that it's not "mi."
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 23:15 GMT In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>Mark Brader: >>> Which means that your highways people [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >In the sense that it's not "mi." But what makes "mi" the only right way?
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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 23:22 GMT Mike Barnes:
>>> I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for >>> "miles". But in what sense, exactly, do they "get it wrong" in doing >>> that? Mark Brader:
>> In the sense that it's not "mi." Mike Barnes:
> But what makes "mi" the only right way? No, I said "mi.", although the period may be omitted on road signs. Why? Because I said so. What did you think?
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 07:35 GMT In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>Mike Barnes: >>>> I agree that the UK highways people have the authority to use "m" for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >No, I said "mi.", Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm used to people, especially people from that side of the Atlantic, ending their sentences within quotes, then hurriedly closing the quotes after the end of the sentence. It now appears that your sentence didn't finish at all.
>although the period may be omitted on road signs. >Why? Because I said so. What did you think? That's exactly what I thought. But I try not to jump to conclusions.
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 11:02 GMT Mark Brader:
>>>> In the sense that it's not "mi." Mike Barnes:
> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm used to people, especially people > from that side of the Atlantic, ending their sentences within quotes, > then hurriedly closing the quotes after the end of the sentence. > It now appears that your sentence didn't finish at all. Of course it did. The "." inside the quotes subsumes the one outside.
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 11:40 GMT In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
>Mark Brader: >>>>> In the sense that it's not "mi." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Of course it did. The "." inside the quotes subsumes the one outside. So - being serious for a moment - how is one supposed to tell whether you meant "mi" or "mi."? Given that both are likely but quite different interpretations of what you wrote?.
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 19:36 GMT Mark Brader:
>>>>>> In the sense that it's not "mi." Mike Barnes:
>>> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm used to people, especially people >>> from that side of the Atlantic, ending their sentences within quotes, >>> then hurriedly closing the quotes after the end of the sentence. >>> It now appears that your sentence didn't finish at all. Mark Brader:
>> Of course it did. The "." inside the quotes subsumes the one outside. Mike Barnes:
> So - being serious for a moment - how is one supposed to tell whether > you meant "mi" or "mi."? Given that both are likely but quite different > interpretations of what you wrote?. Getting a bit carried away with the punctuation there?.? :-)
You're supposed to tell because it's an abbreviation, and therefore requires a period; and also because I used it in the previous message not at the end of a sentence.
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Default User - 04 Jun 2009 23:29 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote:
> > In the sense that it's not "mi." > > But what makes "mi" the only right way? It's mi way for the highway.
Brian
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:13 GMT >Ian Jackson: >> I doubt if the highways people have the authority to determine the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >them. (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that for ordinary >purposes a mile is 1609.344 m.) Not for surveying purposes, it isn't. The USA retains two sets of definitions for the foot. The survey foot is defined as 1200/3937 of a meter. the difference from the usual definitions is small but over the distances involved in surveys can still be significant.
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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 21:11 GMT Mark Brader (emphasis added):
> > (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for ordinary > > purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.) Dave Hatunen:
> Not for surveying purposes... Exactly.
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 22:05 GMT >Mark Brader (emphasis added): >> > (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for ordinary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Exactly. i guess it's a question of what one considers "ordinary". Surveying is an ordinary purpose for me.
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James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 23:33 GMT Mark wrote on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:11:36 -0500:
> Mark Brader (emphasis added): > >> (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for > >> ordinary purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.)
> Dave Hatunen: >> Not for surveying purposes...
> Exactly. The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters *exactly*, agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age that's their problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3!
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Skitt - 04 Jun 2009 23:50 GMT > Mark wrote: >> Mark Brader (emphasis added):
>>>> (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for >>>> ordinary purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters *exactly*, Good heavens, that's a very long inch.
> agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age that's > their problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the Tennessee > legislature deciding that PI was 3!
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James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 23:58 GMT Skitt wrote on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:50:20 -0700:
>> Mark wrote: >>> Mark Brader (emphasis added):
>>>>> (Of course, all such countries have now agreed that *for >>>>> ordinary purposes* a mile is 1609.344 m.) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters >> *exactly*,
> Good heavens, that's a very long inch.
>> agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age >> that's their problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the >> Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3! Dead right! 2.54 cm, 25.4 mm!
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 00:45 GMT > Skitt wrote on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:50:20 -0700:
>>> The scientific definition, 1 inch being 25.4 centimeters >>> *exactly*, > >> Good heavens, that's a very long inch. > > Dead right! 2.54 cm, 25.4 mm! You know, it's funny. The simple conversion factors between units is supposed to be one of the great advantages of the metric system, but I see this confusion between cm and mm all the time. (I think we've seen it at least twice in this thread.) I can't recall seeing a similar confusion between feet and inches or pounds and ounces. I'm starting to wonder whether the fact that the numbers appear so similar actually contributes to the likelihood of making this particular error.
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Leslie Danks - 05 Jun 2009 07:45 GMT [...]
> You know, it's funny. The simple conversion factors between units is > supposed to be one of the great advantages of the metric system, but I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > actually contributes to the likelihood of making this particular > error. Surely this is something that occurs only during the transition period between one set of units and the other--which involves old geezers learning something new. I can't imagine anyone brought up in the metric system (and using it for everyday tasks) confusing mm and cm.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 17:55 GMT >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >learning something new. I can't imagine anyone brought up in the metric >system (and using it for everyday tasks) confusing mm and cm. I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets that required the students to do some conversons between metric units. One of the questions involved changing meters to centimeters.
One cute little tenth grader said she didin't understand the problem, so I led her through it, step by step. After much promting from me she finally grasped that there were 100cm in a meter. Then, with increaing frustration, I got her to understand she had to multiply by 100.
I walked away in despair when she innocently asked me, "How do you multiply by 100?"
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Robert Bannister - 07 Jun 2009 00:21 GMT >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I walked away in despair when she innocently asked me, "How do > you multiply by 100?" I hope you showed her which buttons to press on her calculator.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 02:25 GMT >> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we >> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I hope you showed her which buttons to press on her calculator. Forty years ago?
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the Omrud - 07 Jun 2009 09:23 GMT >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Forty years ago? And it's quite difficult to explain how to multiply by 100 on a slide rule.
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Roland Hutchinson - 07 Jun 2009 14:25 GMT >>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we >>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And it's quite difficult to explain how to multiply by 100 on a slide > rule. Not as difficult as it is to explain how to add.
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Frank ess - 07 Jun 2009 17:45 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Forty years ago? Forty-nine years ago I was using push-buttons on Friden calculators.
Choosing the right buttons would make them do magic with rhythms.
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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:08 GMT >Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Choosing the right buttons would make them do magic with rhythms. Was that the desk calculator with the small vector monitor showing a four-high stack and using reverse polish notation? I had one of those at a job I was on in 1966.
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Frank ess - 09 Jun 2009 04:44 GMT >> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> Robert Bannister <robban1@bigpond.com> writes: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > showing a four-high stack and using reverse polish notation? I > had one of those at a job I was on in 1966. I can affirm the "desk" part; the remainder is beyond my ken or remembery. If you mean by "monitor", some kind of electronic display, no; all electrically powered machinery with numbers on wheels, it seemed.
The row of machines in what we called the "statistics lab" were large and had columns and rows of spinning numbers. Someone practiced and experimented so he could make all the whirrings and thumpings produce waltz tempos, marches, and a Latin rhythm of some kind. All I ever got to was posing a division problem (or was it multiplication) that yielded a product 1234567 ... end.
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Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 04:53 GMT >>Forty-nine years ago I was using push-buttons on Friden calculators. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > showing a four-high stack and using reverse polish notation? I > had one of those at a job I was on in 1966. My high school had a couple of those, acquired around that date.
Darned well taught me what a stack was, they did.
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Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:16 GMT >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Forty years ago? My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There were calculators around then, but of course not for school children. I think I still knew how to use a slide rule back then - the last time I looked at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else, and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway.
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John Kane - 08 Jun 2009 15:14 GMT > >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we > >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else, > and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway. Interesting. A bout 40 years ago slide rules were more or less obligatory for our grade nine students (approx. 14 years/age). The slide rules were small ( perhaps 15-20 cm in length) but they were handy.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Nick Spalding - 08 Jun 2009 16:53 GMT John Kane wrote, in <72a6bfd8-2611-49d4-8cc2-c29ff02b4201@j12g2000vbl.googlegroups.com> on Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:14:16 -0700 (PDT):
> > >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we > > >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > slide rules were small ( perhaps 15-20 cm in length) but they were > handy. There is one of those in a drawer in this desk. I have a ten inch one upstairs somewhere.
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J. J. Lodder - 08 Jun 2009 22:09 GMT > >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we > >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else, > and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway. That was in the golden age, when real SF heros navigated their spaceships to the centre of the galaxy and back with their slide rules,
Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 22:59 GMT >> My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There were >> calculators around then, but of course not for school children. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to the centre of the galaxy and back > with their slide rules, And a book of astrogation tables. Or Max Jones.
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J. J. Lodder - 09 Jun 2009 10:17 GMT > >> My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There were > >> calculators around then, but of course not for school children. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > And a book of astrogation tables. Or Max Jones. No, a slide rule really is what it takes. See the illustration in <http://www.ansible.co.uk/sfx/sfx129.html> for proof,
Jan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 16:02 GMT >> >> My problem is that 40 years doesn't seem very long ago. There >> >> were calculators around then, but of course not for school [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > <http://www.ansible.co.uk/sfx/sfx129.html> > for proof, He was a pirate. He'd use the astrogation tables on the ship he was taking over.
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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:11 GMT >>>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we >>>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >at one, I was able to work out how to multiply, but not anything else, >and not many school kids under 16 had them anyway. There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk calculators. Mechanical calculators had been around for decades, and electronic desk calculators were jsut appearing, but see http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Desktops-and-Notebooks/How-the-HP35-Calculator-Killed-t he-Slide-Rule-and-Made-an-IT-Giant-773270/
"In the early 1970s, the slide rule was standard equipment for students, engineers and scientists. The personal computer was still a twinkle in the eyes of the visionaries. Then, in 1972, Hewlett-Packard introduced the world's first scientific pocket calculatorthe HP-35and delivered portable "computing power" into the hands of users. An instant hit among scientists and engineers, the HP-35 soon displaced slide rules and marked the birthplace of HP's innovative and highly successful heritage in the handheld calculator market."
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 02:34 GMT > There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years > ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk calculators. Apparently, there were handheld calculators, too. Several sources say that TI brought one out one in 1967. And that it cost $2,500 (nearly $16,000 in 2008 money).
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James Silverton - 09 Jun 2009 13:12 GMT Evan wrote on Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:34:24 -0700:
>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty >> years ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk >> calculators.
> Apparently, there were handheld calculators, too. Several > sources say that TI brought one out one in 1967. And that it > cost $2,500 (nearly $16,000 in 2008 money). There were handheld mechanical calculators in the 50s. I remember one called a Curta (spelling in doubt) that would even fit in a pocket but was rather heavy, A Google image search on Curta calculator will bring up pictures.
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James Silverton - 09 Jun 2009 13:22 GMT James wrote to Evan Kirshenbaum on Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:12:23 -0400:
>>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty >>> years ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk >>> calculators.
>> Apparently, there were handheld calculators, too. Several >> sources say that TI brought one out one in 1967. And that it >> cost $2,500 (nearly $16,000 in 2008 money).
> There were handheld mechanical calculators in the 50s. I > remember one called a Curta (spelling in doubt) that would > even fit in a pocket but was rather heavy, A Google image > search on Curta calculator will bring up pictures. Sorry, about this addition to my own post. I began to write it before I thought to do the Google search and did not remove the comment about spelling. I haven't had my coffee yet.
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Mark Brader - 09 Jun 2009 03:57 GMT Dave Hatunen:
> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years > ago, 1969, there weren't. But there were desk calculators. Correct. Pocket calculators appeared just before I went to university in 1972 -- the first one I remember was the Rapidman, a Canadian brand, and Wikipedia says the first of all was a Busicom model in 1971.
The HP-35 was the first *scientific* pocket calulator (i.e. with log and trig functions) and came out in 1972. They were priced too high for typical students, and I remember when the University of Waterloo set up a calculator table in the library with a number of HP-35's firmly fastened down to it.
I got my first pocket calculator in 1972, just a basic model, and replaced it with an HP-21 in 1976.
> Mechanical calculators had been around for decades, and > electronic desk calculators were jsut appearing... They were a bit earlier, maybe early 1960s. I remember seeing one with a Nixie tube display at my father's office well before I went to university.
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Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 05:18 GMT > Dave Hatunen: >> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in 1972 -- the first one I remember was the Rapidman, a Canadian brand, > and Wikipedia says the first of all was a Busicom model in 1971. The first one spotted during my undergraduate career at MIT was owned by a freshman in 1972 whose grandmother owned a large chunk of a Fortune 100 company. Just four functions, and priced so that if you needed to ask you couldn't afford one.
> The HP-35 was the first *scientific* pocket calulator (i.e. with log > and trig functions) and came out in 1972. They were priced too high > for typical students, and I remember when the University of Waterloo > set up a calculator table in the library with a number of HP-35's > firmly fastened down to it. By the time I graduated a few years later, the HP 25C (continuous memory! wowie!) had become the tool of choice for students who needed to do calculations, and the Coop had stopped selling slide rules.
The scientific calculator in the library was a Wang desktop-sized model.
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Murray Arnow - 09 Jun 2009 14:05 GMT >> Dave Hatunen: >>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >The scientific calculator in the library was a Wang desktop-sized model. Now, that takes me back to antiquity. The Wang calculator really wasn't desktop. It's console had nixie tubes and the cpu was in a metal suitcase usually kept on the floor. About 1966 the calculator had only basic arithmetic functions with built-in trig and log function. About four years later it had more memory and could be programmed. All the electronics were discrete. Those transistors in the suitcase heated the room nicely.
When I were a lowly grad student, a professor used some grant money to get an HP-35 for $395. It was the marvel of the department. He was lucky to get it. The demand was huge. HP put on a big push to sell as many as possible, because they figured they had only a six month jump on the competition. HP used its entire sales force for its promotion. The calculator was sold in addition to whatever product line the salesman had. HP induced the salesmen to sell the calculator by rewarding them with a free calculator if they sold over a certain number. This little bit of HP history comes courtesy of the physics department HP sales rep.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:43 GMT >When I were a lowly grad student, a professor used some grant money to >get an HP-35 for $395. It was the marvel of the department. He was lucky [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >with a free calculator if they sold over a certain number. This little >bit of HP history comes courtesy of the physics department HP sales rep. I seem to recall a calculator, perhaps from HP, that had a display that only showed three significant figures like a slide rule.
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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:29 GMT >>> Dave Hatunen: >>>> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > electronics were discrete. Those transistors in the suitcase heated the > room nicely. That's true. It had its own dedicated table with a shelf or something for the suitcase. One of my duties as assistant head of circulation was to check from time to time that the thing was still working. It always was (or at least the nixie tubes would light up when it was turned on and the users never complained).
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 08:18 GMT In alt.usage.english, Hatunen wrote:
>There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years >ago, 1969, there weren't. It's rather closer than that. For instance the Sinclair Executive pocket calculator went on sale in the UK in 1972.
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Mike Lyle - 09 Jun 2009 22:50 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Hatunen wrote: >> There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years >> ago, 1969, there weren't. > > It's rather closer than that. For instance the Sinclair Executive > pocket calculator went on sale in the UK in 1972. And the Sinclair Cambridge must have appeared in about '74, because I vaguely think I must have got my Dixon's knock-off in '75 or '76 (for £7, was it?).
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John Kane - 09 Jun 2009 14:22 GMT > On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:16:04 +0800, Robert Bannister > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > There were pocket calculators by the late 1970s, but forty years > ago, 1969, there weren't. Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a pocket) mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually seen one but the wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta describes it.
I do remember an engineering student friend of mine who actually had a calculator in late 1972 or earlier 1973. I think it was the first time I'd even heard of them.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:45 GMT >Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a pocket) >mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually seen one but the >wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta describes it. The Curtas were heavily advertised in magazines like Scientific American.
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James Silverton - 10 Jun 2009 01:02 GMT Hatunen wrote on Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:45:28 -0700:
>> Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a >> pocket) mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually >> seen one but the wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta >> describes it.
> The Curtas were heavily advertised in magazines like > Scientific American. Did you ever use one? One was available for our use when I was a grad student but it was never very popular. Hand operated digital calculators were never much liked. I remember that the computer lab had a number of hand cranked Facit machines that were equally unpopular. The lab director felt that they instilled a real understanding of mechanical calculation. The motorized Facit *was* used even if the internal carriage had a disturbing tendency to move the whole machine as it returned. If you did not watch it, there was tendency for it to walk off your desk. Nevertheless, it was built like a tank and survived several such accidents.
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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:25 GMT >>Interestingly enough there was a handheld (probably fits in a pocket) >>mechanical calculator from 1948. I've never actually seen one but the >>wiki page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curta describes it. > > The Curtas were heavily advertised in magazines like Scientific > American. Didn't those ads (the later ones, at least) promote the fact that they took one to the moon, or at least into earth orbit?
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rwalker - 09 Jun 2009 19:52 GMT snip
>"In the early 1970s, the slide rule was standard equipment for >students, engineers and scientists. The personal computer was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >birthplace of HP's innovative and highly successful heritage in >the handheld calculator market." I started college in 1976. That same year, I got my first pocket calculator and my first (and only) slide rule.
Even now, I have an HP scientific calculator, but with the advent of PCs, even it gets hardly any use.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:05 GMT >>> I was teching high school science here about forty years ago and we >>> were stdying a unit on the metric system. I handed out worksheets [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Forty years ago? It was the 1969-70 school year. I don't think even the HP electronic slide rule was available yet, but I could be wrong. I bought my first four-function calculator in 1978.
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Jerry Friedman - 09 Jun 2009 03:51 GMT > On Fri, 05 Jun 2009 08:55:29 +0200, Leslie Danks > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I walked away in despair when she innocently asked me, "How do > you multiply by 100?" It's nice to know that some things haven't changed.
-- Jerry Friedman
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:24 GMT >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >learning something new. I can't imagine anyone brought up in the metric >system (and using it for everyday tasks) confusing mm and cm. It is a misapprehension that the USA is not metric; the metric system has been legal since the latter 19th century when all the American units were defined in terms of the metric units.
Today a substantial part of the American economy uses metric units (notable alcoholic beverages).
It matters little overall if Americans continue to use their old units. There is little harm in having our highway signage in miles and feet. The usual argument in favor of adopting the metric system is to help make our exports more attractive to other countires, but by and large our exports are already done in metric units. Sure, some people working in industry have to maintain one set of units for their private lives and another for their jobs, but it seems to be working OK.
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Nick Spalding - 07 Jun 2009 12:14 GMT Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com> on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700:
> >[...] > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > maintain one set of units for their private lives and another for > their jobs, but it seems to be working OK. Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago?
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Leslie Danks - 07 Jun 2009 12:25 GMT > Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com> > on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700: [...]
>> It matters little overall if Americans continue to use their old >> units. There is little harm in having our highway signage in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? Too much toffee?
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Ian Jackson - 07 Jun 2009 13:22 GMT >> Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com> >> on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Too much toffee? Yes. The Mars probe got 'decimated'!
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jun 2009 12:51 GMT >Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com> > on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? "Havoc"? Just a "mishap".
Mars Climate Orbiter Mishap Investigation Board Phase I Report November 10, 1999
.... The MCO was launched on December 11, 1998, and was lost sometime following the spacecraft's entry into Mars occultation during the Mars Orbit Insertion (MOI) maneuver. The spacecraft's carrier signal was last seen at approximately 09:04:52 UTC on Thursday, September 23, 1999.
The MCO MIB has determined that the root cause for the loss of the MCO spacecraft was the failure to use metric units in the coding of a ground software file, Small Forces, used in trajectory models. Specifically, thruster performance data in English units instead of metric units was used in the software application code titled SM_FORCES (small forces). A file called Angular Momentum Desaturation (AMD) contained the output data from the SM_FORCES software. The data in the AMD file was required to be in metric units per existing software interface documentation, and the trajectory modelers assumed the data was provided in metric units per the requirements.
During the 9-month journey from Earth to Mars, propulsion maneuvers were periodically performed to remove angular momentum buildup in the on-board reaction wheels (flywheels). These Angular Momentum Desaturation (AMD) events occurred 10-14 times more often than was expected by the operations navigation team. This was because the MCO solar array was asymmetrical relative to the spacecraft body as compared to Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) which had symmetrical solar arrays. This asymmetric effect significantly increased the Sun-induced (solar pressure-induced) momentum buildup on the spacecraft. The increased AMD events coupled with the fact that the angular momentum (impulse) data was in English, rather than metric, units, resulted in small errors being introduced in the trajectory estimate over the course of the 9-month journey. At the time of Mars insertion, the spacecraft trajectory was approximately 170 kilometers lower than planned. As a result, MCO either was destroyed in the atmosphere or re-entered heliocentric space after leaving Mars atmosphere.
The Board recognizes that mistakes occur on spacecraft projects. However, sufficient processes are usually in place on projects to catch these mistakes before they become critical to mission success. Unfortunately for MCO, the root cause was not caught by the processes in-place in the MCO project.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 17:55 GMT > Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com> > on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for numeric input data but was handed numbers that implicitly had different units. That one was metric and the other not is immaterial. I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done that last one myself). I think I remember one (local) expensive piece of equipment being damaged because it expected (fractions of) millimeters and got microns, causing it to jerk out of tolerance.
The problem wasn't and isn't the mismatch, it's the fact that the units are left implicit (i.e., only mentioned in the documentation, if at all) and therefore not checked or converted. It's possible to do it right, but people can't quite agree on the specs, so it never seems to get added to programming languages or libraries. It was a decent contender to get added to the upcoming version (7) of Java, but I understand it didn't get in. This has been one of my professional peeves for nearly twenty years now.
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James Hogg - 07 Jun 2009 18:02 GMT Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote:
>> Hatunen wrote, in <q59l255j9pbjvmhfun8igfuraf1pnv025v@4ax.com> >> on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:24:04 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >understand it didn't get in. This has been one of my professional >peeves for nearly twenty years now. Do you mean twenty calendar years of 365.2425 days or twenty Julian years of 365.25 days?
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 22:17 GMT > Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Do you mean twenty calendar years of 365.2425 days or twenty > Julian years of 365.25 days? Calendar years, but with the specificity of "nearly twenty", I'm not sure what difference it would make.
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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 19:29 GMT Nick Spalding:
>> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? Evan Kirshenbaum:
> What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for > numeric input data but was handed numbers that implicitly had > different units. That one was metric and the other not is immaterial. Fair point. Really, the cause of problems is the conversion from one system to the other. If people would just stop introducing metric, these problems wouldn't arise. :-)
> I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though > I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch > was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done > that last one myself). I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 07 Jun 2009 19:41 GMT >Evan Kirshenbaum: >> What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >system to the other. If people would just stop introducing metric, >these problems wouldn't arise. :-) Fortunately there were no Martians involved or there would have been at least one more set of units to consider.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 23:37 GMT > Nick Spalding: >>> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of. I don't have any specific incidents at hand. I've got a hardcopy file at work somewhere, mostly of programmatic approaches people had come up with, but with some history as well, but I was hot on this around 1990 or so, so it's all on paper. A few incidents that are vaguely sticking in my head are a plane from Canada that ran out of fuel because engineers (manually) decided there was enough fuel by using a conversion factor that assumed different units than they did, somthing that crashed because its height-above-ground alarm level was specified assuming thousands of feet rather than feet (and so never triggered), and an incident involving cancer-treatment radiation equipment. I wish my memory was better.
I've personally misconfigured timers or written programs that misinterpreted clocks. I've generated very bizarre-looking graphs by not realizing the implicit units that a graphing package's API expects. I've seen programs incorrectly assume that the Unix "du" program returns sizes in kilobytes rather than half-kilobyte bocks. I've told people "No, it didn't fail to print; your entire graph is in that one dot."
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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 07:07 GMT >>> What caused the problem was that a system assumed the units for >>> numeric input data but was handed numbers that implicitly had >>> different units. That one was metric and the other not is immaterial.
>> Fair point. Really, the cause of problems is the conversion from one >> system to the other. If people would just stop introducing metric, >> these problems wouldn't arise. :-)
>>> I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though >>> I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch >>> was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done >>> that last one myself).
>> I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of. > I don't have any specific incidents at hand. I've got a hardcopy file [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because engineers (manually) decided there was enough fuel by using a > conversion factor that assumed different units than they did... Bad memory -- the "Gimli Glider" is probably the most famous example *of* serious trouble caused entirely by conversion to metric. I'll post a separate followup with details.
> somthing that crashed because its height-above-ground alarm level was > specified assuming thousands of feet rather than feet ... That one I haven't heard of.
> and an incident involving cancer-treatment radiation equipment. If you're talking about the lethal malfunctions of the Therac 25, they had nothing to do with any confusion of measurements.
The machine had two modes of operation: it could directly irradiate the patient with an electron beam, or it could turn the power way up, interpose a target between the beam and the patient, and so irradiate the patient with X-rays. Thus changing modes required changing two things -- the target being in or out of the line, and the beam power. Unfortunately, if the operator selected one mode and then backspaced and corrected it to the other mode, sometimes it would set one thing one way and the other thing the other way.
Of course, you may have been thinking of something else altogether.
And you have just reminded me of a case in 2006 where a patient died because of a confusion between hours and days, which therefore could go on your list. An infusion pump was loaded with fluorouracil, a chemotherapy drug, at set to deliver it at 28.8 milliliters per hour. This was a plausible rate for some other drugs, but the correct amount in this case was 28.8 milliliters per *day*.
See <http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/24.66.html#subj3>. (The links in that posting no longer work, but the CBC News story is available at <http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/05/08/chemotherapy-report.html> and the link from that page to the report in PDF still works.)
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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 07:15 GMT Mark Brader:
> Bad memory -- the "Gimli Glider" is probably the most famous example > *of* serious trouble caused entirely by conversion to metric. I'll > post a separate followup with details. (Repeating an old posting of mine from another newsgroup. The original context, the "this" in the first sentence, was discussion of an airliner being glided to a landing after all engines failed.)
The most famous case of this has to be that of Air Canada flight 143 on 1983-07-23. Due to a series of errors[1] the plane ran out of fuel at cruising altitude. Unfortunately, the book I'm consulting for details[2] is written with more attention to sensationalism[3] than to straightforward presentation, and some of the numbers presented don't make sense in conjunction with each other[4].
In any case, the pilot first tried to divert to Winnipeg, then as it became clear that this wouldn't work, turned to the small town of Gimli where an abandoned air base was still in use as a general aviation airport[5], and landed there more or less safely[6]. The total glide was at least 45 miles and maybe as much as 80 miles, depending on how the book is interpretd. And at the end, the pilot had altitude to spare and sideslipped the plane to lose it. Not all that much like a rock! (Now if you were talking about the Space Shuttle...)
As well as the main generators on the engines, the plane included an "auxiliary power unit" which burned its own fuel from the main supply, but this was useless since there was no fuel. However, it was also provided with a "ram air turbine" which could be lowered from one of the wings -- basically a windmill, a 4-foot ducted propeller powered by the plane's motion relative to the air. This is what they depended on for electrical power, and limited hydraulic power, for the unpowered descent. (It couldn't operate some components such as the flaps, though.)
The pilot, Bob Pearson, was initially disciplined for mistake 2, but a subsequent inquiry felt that blame was so widely divisible that he was more to be praised for avoiding a disaster.
[1] The plane's fuel monitoring was dependent on two communication channels. If one failed, the other would take over automatically. Due to a badly soldered joint, one channel failed *partially* and this was not sufficient for the other to kick in. So the fuel gauges were inoperative unless the bad channel was disabled at the circuit breaker. One mechanic identified the symptom, opened the breaker, and left it marked "inop(erative)". Another mechanic, trying to diagnose the actual problem, closed the breaker again. He didn't locate it and, since his tests showed the other channel was working, he naturally assumed the gauges would work from it and didn't trouble to reopen the breaker: mistake 1.
It was permissible to fly with only one channel in the system working, so the mechanics declared the plane usable. It was not permissible to fly without gauges working, so the pilot declared it unusable. However, when informed that the mechanics had declared it usable, he believed them. Mistake 2. Note that the aircraft did include a fuel computer which, if told initially how much fuel was in the tanks, could report how much should be left, even with no actual gauges working.
The tanks then had to be fueled to a known quantity, which was measured by volume. However, the mass of the fuel is what really matters, and since the density varies by temperature, a conversion is required. The plane was a Boeing 767, the first model used by Air Canada where the mass is measured in kilograms[7]. The ground crew inadvertently supplied a density figure in pounds per liter, and as everyone was still more used to this, they failed to notice. (The habit of speaking in pure numbers without units must have been a contributing factor.) Everyone trusted the calculcations, and the plane set out with 21,700 pounds of fuel instead of 21,700 kg. Mistake 3.
[2] "Freefall" by William Hoffer and Marilyn Mona Hoffer (1989, St. Martin's Press, New York, ISBN 0-312-02919-5).
[3] Examples: "Looking around, she realized there were no atheists on Flight 143." And: "It began to oscillate, shaking and bouncing and rattling. He braced himself for the moment of impact, and his silent, lonely prayer continued. Oh my God, please help me, please help me. Get me through this, God, please God, no."
[4] They say the initial indication of a problem was at 41,000 feet and 120+ miles from Winnipeg, whereupon the pilot turned for Winnipeg almost immediately; and that the fuel actually ran out at 28,000 feet, still 100+ miles from Winnipeg; and that "anxious seconds later" (but several chapters away in the back-and-forth presentation of the book) they were at 22,000 feet, and apparently at the same time, 65 miles from Winnipeg and 45 from Gimli. Later they are at 9,400 feet and 39 miles from Winnipeg, and can be projected to fall 10-12 miles short. They then divert in a 180 degree right turn to Gimli, then 12 miles away. These numbers do not go together.
[5] Unfortunately, the air base had had two parallel runways, only one of which was still in use. The pilot misunderstood the landmarks and landed on the wrong runway, which had been converted to a racetrack and now, the racing day being over, had children cycling on it and families barbecuing nearby! Fortunately, everyone who needed to get out of the way did so.
[6] When the landing gear was lowered by gravity, the nose wheel didn't lock, and there wasn't time to do anything about it. The nose dragged along the strip and started a small fire. The aircraft was evacuated through the slides, but this was difficult because the tail was too high, and some injuries resulted.
[7] Some would add the fact of conversion to the list of mistakes.
Added in reposting: in 1995 there was a TV-movie about the incident. Many identifying details were changed, including the flight number, which they then proceeded to use in the title: "Falling from the Sky: Flight 174", also known as just "Flight 174".)
 Signature Mark Brader | this take Toronto | "If is shall really to msb@vex.net | flying I never it." | -- Piglet ("Winnie-the-Pooh", A. A. Milne)
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Nick - 08 Jun 2009 07:26 GMT > I don't have any specific incidents at hand. I've got a hardcopy file > at work somewhere, mostly of programmatic approaches people had come [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and an incident involving cancer-treatment radiation equipment. I > wish my memory was better. There was a case of a plane crash that was believed to be because the same display was used for two different features - angle of descent and rate of descent in 1000s of units - or something like that, without a clear indication of which was which. That sounds like poor display of units rather than confusion.
There've been a good few cases of tired medical staff injecting people with large overdoses of drugs. I can't remember details and my Googlefu's not good enough to avoid being swamped by Heath Ledger and Anna Nicole Smith.
 Signature Online waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu
Robin Bignall - 08 Jun 2009 21:40 GMT >> I don't have any specific incidents at hand. I've got a hardcopy file >> at work somewhere, mostly of programmatic approaches people had come [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Googlefu's not good enough to avoid being swamped by Heath Ledger and >Anna Nicole Smith. A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many times over the past few years. Recently she needed a scan of some kind and was prepped, but the scan never happened. The consultant came round, told her that her results looked good and was astonished when she told him she was still waiting. It transpired that there was another Pat Smith on the ward, more or less her age and general description, in hospital for something else entirely. Just imagine what might have happened if it had been a major operation rather than a scan.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 22:51 GMT > A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many > times over the past few years. Recently she needed a scan of some [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > what might have happened if it had been a major operation rather than > a scan. In the US, it's standard for the patient, before any procedure (including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate, to help guard against this kind of mistake.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't |learn anything at the Harvard kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |Business School. (650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen | Harvard Business School http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 Jun 2009 00:24 GMT >> A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many >> times over the past few years. Recently she needed a scan of some [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >(including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate, >to help guard against this kind of mistake. During my dealings with hospitals in this corner of the UK last year that seemed to be routine.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Jens Brix Christiansen - 09 Jun 2009 08:35 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
> In the US, it's standard for the patient, before any procedure > (including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate, > to help guard against this kind of mistake. In Denmark, it is standard to be asked your civil registration number, which is effectively the birthdate with four added digits. When I underwent surgery recently, I was asked to repeat my name and number about two minutes before the anaesthetic was administered.
 Signature Jens Brix Christiansen
Robin Bignall - 09 Jun 2009 21:35 GMT >> A friend of my wife's, call her Pat Smith, has been in hospital many >> times over the past few years. Recently she needed a scan of some [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >(including things like donating blood), to be asked their birthdate, >to help guard against this kind of mistake. It's standard here, too. A week last Wednesday I had to go to A&E for some hours and a name / birth date tag was fastened round my wrist. (I had a fun follow-up day today learning how to self-catheterise.)
But things seem to slip in the NHS. The Times ran an article yesterday stating that despite its potential virulence, few hospitals are routinely testing patients with serious chest infections for Swine Flu.
Back in 1998, the NHS hospital that did me so much damage seemed to have no mechanism for checking that a patient who was booked in for major elective surgery was actually fit enough to have the operation.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
John Kane - 09 Jun 2009 14:27 GMT > On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 07:26:37 +0100, Nick > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > what might have happened if it had been a major operation rather than > a scan. Not that uncommon I understand. A cousin of mine ( Mr Y) was in the hospital for something like a cyst removal. He was being prepped for surgury and realised something was wrong when he was addressed as Mr. Y. He discovered that he, as Mr Y was scheduled for a circumcision.
I've also heard of one man who was wheeled into the operating room for a hysterectomy.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
When
Mark Brader - 09 Jun 2009 15:19 GMT John Kane:
> Not that uncommon I understand. A cousin of mine ( Mr Y) was in the > hospital for something like a cyst removal. He was being prepped for > surgury and realised something was wrong when he was addressed as Mr. > Y. ... The medical staff pronounced "Mr" and "Mr." differently, then? :-)
 Signature Mark Brader | "[These] articles should be self-explanatory. Toronto | If they *don't* explain themselves, msb@vex.net | you'll have to read them." -- Michael Wares
John Kane - 10 Jun 2009 14:49 GMT > John Kane: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The medical staff pronounced "Mr" and "Mr." differently, then? :-) Damn typing gremlins.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 20:47 GMT > Not that uncommon I understand. A cousin of mine ( Mr Y) was in the > hospital for something like a cyst removal. He was being prepped for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've also heard of one man who was wheeled into the operating room for > a hysterectomy. Might stop him becoming hysterical, I suppose.
 Signature David somewhere near Munich
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 16:28 GMT > Nick Spalding: >>> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of. Oh, and there was this time a woman was in Mrs. Fields' and asked them if she could get a copy of the recipe ....
Evan "or was that the red velvet cake at the Waldorf?" Kirshenbaum
Jerry Friedman - 09 Jun 2009 04:00 GMT > Nick Spalding: > > >> Didn't it cause some havoc with a Mars probe a few years ago? > > Evan Kirshenbaum: ...
> > I've read of similar mishaps (although not quite as expensive, though > > I'm pretty sure there were some that lost aircraft) where the mismatch > > was, e.g., meters/kilometers, feet/inches, seconds/milliseconds (done > > that last one myself). > > I'd be interested to hear about any and all such incidents you know of. Funny you should ask. Just today, I got a phone call from the person I'd hired to teach physics this summer; the first class was today. He said he'd been quoted a number for his pay "with no units" and had assumed that was per month. When he saw the contract this morning, he found that that number was for the two-month course. He gave the first lecture but decided not to teach the course.
Well, it seemed like a mishap at the time. To my great surprise, the first person I called agreed to continue the class starting tomorrow. I stated the pay quite carefully.
-- Jerry Friedman
Murray Arnow - 09 Jun 2009 14:05 GMT >> Nick Spalding: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >first person I called agreed to continue the class starting tomorrow. >I stated the pay quite carefully. There you have it, well, maybe. Nobody seems too concerned that all the so-called metric systems are really mixed systems. Time has always been measured non-decimally, and this has caused very few problems. Talk about confusion: think about a changeover to a decimal year.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:48 GMT >>> Nick Spalding: >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >measured non-decimally, and this has caused very few problems. Talk >about confusion: think about a changeover to a decimal year. For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Murray Arnow - 10 Jun 2009 01:17 GMT >For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial) Temperature is metric, in the sense we've been talking metric here. The scales are divided decimally. There isn't any thing like 60 minutes equals one hour in temperature measurements. Temperature scales may have different metrics (that's mathematically) and different origins, but they all are universally divided into factors of ten.
Hatunen - 10 Jun 2009 01:37 GMT >>For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial) > >Temperature is metric, in the sense we've been talking metric here. Only because soomeone says so.
>The scales are divided decimally. So are Fahrenheit scales.
>There isn't any thing like 60 minutes >equals one hour in temperature measurements. Temperature scales may have >different metrics (that's mathematically) and different origins, but >they all are universally divided into factors of ten. Then your claim is that the Fahrenheit and Rankine scales are also metric. But I see nothing in the word "metric" that means decimals.
In fact, the SI would work just as well had it established Fahreneheit/Rankine as the scale for temperature, allowing for adjustments in pertinent definitions.
There's always the Potrezebie System...
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Jens Brix Christiansen - 10 Jun 2009 08:15 GMT Murray Arnow skrev:
>> For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial)
> Temperature is metric, in the sense we've been talking metric here. The > scales are divided decimally. That is a very weak sense of metric. "No one" would use millidegrees or kilodegrees centigrade or Fahrenheit. When it comes to using metric prefixes, only kelvin fits the bill.
 Signature Jens Brix Christiansen
Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:10 GMT >>For that matter, temperature isn't metric (nor Imperial) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > different metrics (that's mathematically) and different origins, but > they all are universally divided into factors of ten. It's not all that hard to Google up a (historical) use of minutes to divide degrees of temperature:
"Thus, as observed by Von Humboldt in his ' Aspects of Nature,' ' the temperature of the Pacific on the coast near Lima is sixty degrees two minutes Fahrenheit, while in the same latitude out of the current it is seventy- nine degrees two minutes Fahrenheit." (The Knickerbocker; or, New York Monthly Magazine, September 1850, p. 209)
http://books.google.com/books?id=3xEAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=%22minutes+f ahrenheit%22&source=bl&ots=uZNs5H0Lbi&sig=TGtcOPUj_- VLWE8AOTi4EbveoTM&hl=en&ei=9oEwSruhMoKEtwe- wZzcBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6#PPA209,M1
Hm, better make it this:
http://tinyurl.com/md2czv
And I bet minutes of temperature are divided into seconds (if they could measure that precisely in the mid-19th century).
 Signature Roland Hutchinson
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 08:59 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> Skitt wrote on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:50:20 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >You know, it's funny. The simple conversion factors between units is >supposed to be one of the great advantages of the metric system, "Supposed to be"? You doubt it?
>but I >see this confusion between cm and mm all the time. (I think we've >seen it at least twice in this thread.) I can't recall seeing a >similar confusion between feet and inches or pounds and ounces. Surely that's because you mainly come across people who are familiar with feet and inches, and unfamiliar with mm and cm. Believe me, there are plenty of people in continental Europe who are just as inept in feet and inches.
>I'm >starting to wonder whether the fact that the numbers appear so similar >actually contributes to the likelihood of making this particular >error. As someone who was brought up in Imperial measure and is now pretty-much fully metricated, can I offer some additional explanation?
In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor was 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4. Also "everyone" knew that for small distances you use cm. So the first thought was that an inch was 25.4 cm.
In fact, in the modern UK and AFAIK in many other countries, for small distances where we previously used inches, we now use mm, not cm. Those familiar with the metric system are used to dealing in mm or cm or m depending on the scale of the job in hand, just we were used to dealing in in or ft or mi. But there is an added tendency in metric to use whole numbers, avoiding fractions and decimals. Additionally, km/m/mm make a uniformly graduated scale which has a lot of appeal. So contrary to our first impressions, cm are not used that much, compared to mm. For jobs on an inch-and-fractions scale, mm are the natural choice, not cm. Hence "25.4 mm to the inch" not "2.54 cm to the inch".
But the average American hasn't reached that stage yet, and seems to gravitate towards cm at the drop of a hat[*], and still has that 25.4 figure lodged somewhere in his memory. Hence, and I quote from above, "25.4 centimeters".
[*] Irritatingly, for many years Microsoft Word offered to work in inches, points, pica, or cm, but *not* mm.
And when you start with that incorrect conversion factor, the conversion result comes out wrong by a factor of ten, and you haven't got the instinct to spot the mistake. When I first "went metric", that sort of mistake happened all the time. My instinct is now very much better developed, and I don't make factor-of-ten errors. I'm still not metricated enough to instantly spot such errors made by others, though.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 16:59 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > "Supposed to be"? You doubt it? For everyday metrology, certainly. But that's neither here nor there, and we've been over this before.
>>but I see this confusion between cm and mm all the time. (I think >>we've seen it at least twice in this thread.) I can't recall seeing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > there are plenty of people in continental Europe who are just as > inept in feet and inches. I'm pretty sure I've seen these slips from Brits and Continental Europeans, as well. (And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide sidewalk that appeared recently in this thread wasn't by an American.)
And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches. No 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch- high ceilings. (Confusing 8' and 8" is another story, but that's a matter of not remembering which symbol goes with which unit.)
>>I'm starting to wonder whether the fact that the numbers appear so >>similar actually contributes to the likelihood of making this [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor was > 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4. Speaking as an American, 2.54 is the conversion factor that I was taught and that sticks in my head. I have to actively convert to 25.4 for mm.
> Also "everyone" knew that for small distances you use cm. So the > first thought was that an inch was 25.4 cm. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > But the average American hasn't reached that stage yet, and seems to > gravitate towards cm at the drop of a hat[*], That's probably because our rulers and tape measures, at least since I was a child in the late '60s, have tended to be marked in cm down one side. Are British rulers marked in millimeters?
And also because that's what we tend to come across in bilingual (and simply bi-systemic) packaging when the corresponding standard measure is non-fractional inches. If I saw, say a 54 inch fan, I'd expect it to be marked "137 cm", not "1,372 mm". An 18-inch-wide printer will be "46 cm", not "457 mm". Different in the UK? The only time millimeters come into play around here is for things normally expressed in fractions of an inch, such as drill bits and bolts.
> and still has that 25.4 figure lodged somewhere in his memory. I don't think Americans would have 25.4 lodged in their memory as the primary conversion factor, unless that was how it was taught before I learned it.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell |you. (If you're not that certain, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.) (650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 18:05 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I'm pretty sure I've seen these slips from Brits and Continental >Europeans, as well. Brits I'm happy to believe (this is all still quite new to many of us), continentals less so.
>(And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide >sidewalk that appeared recently in this thread wasn't by an American.) I hadn't given any thought to the nationality of that poster. I was concerned with the population that your general impressions were based on, which is mainly American isn't it?
>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that a >meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches. No 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch- >high ceilings. (Confusing 8' and 8" is another story, but that's a >matter of not remembering which symbol goes with which unit.) For that to be at all likely in any analogous sense, there would have to be a unit that equated to ten metres or one tenth of a metre. Although there are such units, they're not in common use, so it's not surprising you haven't come across anyone that confused them with the metre.
>> In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor was >> 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4. > >Speaking as an American, 2.54 is the conversion factor that I was >taught and that sticks in my head. I have to actively convert to 25.4 >for mm. Noted, thanks.
>> In fact, in the modern UK and AFAIK in many other countries, for >> small distances where we previously used inches, we now use mm, not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >was a child in the late '60s, have tended to be marked in cm down one >side. Are British rulers marked in millimeters? British rulers are also generally marked in cm, which is probably why (as I remarked) the same naive preference for cm was equally prevalent in the UK some time ago.
In practice you read off the cm and then append the last few mm. So a British builder measuring a 894 mm doorway, would see 89 (cm) and four ticks, and announce "894". Probably not "894 mm", because builders work in mm all the time. And in the same you don't hear about 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch-high ceilings, we don't hear about 89.4 mm or 8.94 m doors.
>And also because that's what we tend to come across in bilingual (and >simply bi-systemic) packaging when the corresponding standard measure [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >millimeters come into play around here is for things normally >expressed in fractions of an inch, such as drill bits and bolts. The fan seems to me to be not a measurement as such, but an indication of a class of product. The exact measurement is not so important. And if you were actually measuring that fan, you'd measure it as 4'6", wouldn't you? This seems a long way from the "inches-and-fractions scale" that I was actually talking about.
Moving on to the printer, yes, it probably would be 457 mm wide. I went to Amazon and looked at the first printer I was offered (an HP).
http://tinyurl.com/ojtdy6 "Dimensions (w x d x h) Out of package: 422 x 260 x 141 mm, with trays up: 422 x 182 x 141 mm, Maximum: 422 x 316 x 141 mm, packaged: 472 x 228 x 190 mm"
That's not to say that cm aren't to be found, but mm are more usual in my experience. You're more likely to find cm with measurements where precision is not so important - furniture, say, even some printers I would think - and whole cm would be the order of the day. As soon as the situation starts to demand cm and decimals, mm become more likely.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 18:42 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Brits I'm happy to believe (this is all still quite new to many of > us), continentals less so. How many decades does it have to be before it ceases to be "quite new"?
>>(And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide sidewalk that appeared >>recently in this thread wasn't by an American.) > > I hadn't given any thought to the nationality of that poster. I was > concerned with the population that your general impressions were > based on, which is mainly American isn't it? I see it mostly on-line, so it's hard to be sure.
>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that >>a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches. No 71-foot-tall people or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it's not surprising you haven't come across anyone that confused > them with the metre. I'm not sure I see your point. If it's reasonable for people unused to the metric system to be unsure whether there are 2.54 or 25.4 cm in an inch, why isn't it similarly likely for people unused to the American system to be unsure whether there are 3.3 or 39 feet in a meter?
But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common named units that are so small and so close together.
>>> In the pre-metric UK, "everyone" knew that the conversion factor >>> was 25.4. Not 2.54, but 25.4. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > a British builder measuring a 894 mm doorway, would see 89 (cm) and > four ticks, and announce "894". Ah. An American working in centimeters (which we would if that was what the spec called for) would announce "eighty-nine four". At that precision 890 mm would be "eighty-nine even". Indeed, even if the spec was in millimeters, I suspect that I'd read off the measurements as if I were measuring centimeters.
As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"? For me, a "doorway" has connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches seems a bit small. Were you thinking of a cabinet? That wouldn't be a "doorway" here, I don't think.
> Probably not "894 mm", because builders work in mm all the time. And > in the same you don't hear about 71-foot-tall people or 8-inch-high [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > indication of a class of product. The exact measurement is not so > important. Actually, the box I looked at was for a ceiling fan, and it's the diameter of the circle the blades make. True, there's less of a "will it fit in the space" notion, but it refers to a size that will be quite visible.
> And if you were actually measuring that fan, you'd measure it as > 4'6", wouldn't you? Not at all. I'd measure it as 54". Which is also 4'6", of course, but I probably wouldn't do the (simple) conversion unless I needed to compare it against something similarly measured in feet and inches. Similarly, in the discussion we had here about American appliances not fitting in British kitchens, the standards for the appliances (and cutouts) are 30", 32", and 36", not 2'6", 2'8", and 3'. If I'm using a tape measure, up to at least about eight feet, I'm going to read off the number in inches.
> This seems a long way from the "inches-and-fractions scale" that I > was actually talking about. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > trays up: 422 x 182 x 141 mm, Maximum: 422 x 316 x 141 mm, > packaged: 472 x 228 x 190 mm" Noted. The same shows up on the HP site. I'm surprised, but looking at other products, that appears to be our standard.
> That's not to say that cm aren't to be found, but mm are more usual > in my experience. You're more likely to find cm with measurements > where precision is not so important - furniture, say, even some > printers I would think - and whole cm would be the order of the > day. As soon as the situation starts to demand cm and decimals, mm > become more likely.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Revolution" has many definitions. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |From the looks of this, I'd say Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"going around in circles" comes |closest to applying... kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard M. Hartman (650)857-7572
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Nick - 05 Jun 2009 20:50 GMT > But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common > named units that are so small and so close together. Related to this, it's the absence of anything around a foot that I find the greatest gap in the system. A pound similarly though less dramatically.
Feet and poundss are the sort of thing you can feel. The metric system would have been far better to have put the baseline somewhere else, but even so, the scaling factor between units of the same type (unless you use all those frightfully confusing decis and decas and hectis and hectos or hectas or whatever) is, at 1000 (100 if you're lucky) just far, far too large for people sized things.
I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just find it terribly inconvenient in everyday life.
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Robin Bignall - 05 Jun 2009 21:57 GMT >> But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common >> named units that are so small and so close together. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I'm not opposed to it on principle, I just find it terribly inconvenient >in everyday life. Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time. How much time, as Evan asked? I don't know. Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle teens, but using it routinely in real life took decades. I'm about 2/3 of the way through having a new kitchen installed (difficult bits which contain sink and hob come on Monday), and all measurements are in mm, even "large" ones such as 1000 mm cupboards, rather than 100 cm. Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one side and cm/mm on the other.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 22:35 GMT > Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time. How much > time, as Evan asked? I don't know. Studying physics, I had to > start thinking "metric" in my middle teens, Much the same in the US. We first started using "meter sticks", rather than yardsticks, in science class when I was probably in sixth or seventh grade, in the mid/late '70s. Essentially all science was (and is) done in metric units. If you had to make sense of the answer when you were done, you converted it back to the units you were used to. But typically, it didn't matter all that much.
The exception was the internalization that light travels at (just under) a foot a nanosecond. That visualization became important when dealing with systems that had nanosecond-level synchronization requirements, and so cable lengths in
> but using it routinely in real life took decades. I'm about 2/3 of > the way through having a new kitchen installed (difficult bits which > contain sink and hob come on Monday), and all measurements are in > mm, even "large" ones such as 1000 mm cupboards, rather than 100 cm. Or even 1 m.
> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the > installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one > side and cm/mm on the other. Thanks. I was under the impression from earlier discussions that the US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both scales.
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 23:53 GMT Robin Bignall:
>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the >> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one >> side and cm/mm on the other. Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Thanks. I was under the impression from earlier discussions that > the US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both > scales. The rulers I first used as a schoolchild in the 1960s in Canada were marked in inches and centimeters, and today this is still common but not universal. I happen to have two tape measures right here; one of them is one that I bought, probably in the 1980s or early 1990s, and is also marked in both systems; but I remember that not all of the ones in the store were. I haven't looked in recent years to see if things have changed.
Incidentally, on the outside the length of this tape measure is marked as "26'/8m" [sic, no space], but it actually has no markings in feet or meters, just inches and centimeters. The inch scale ends at 312, which aligns with 792.5 cm on the other scale. The absence of "feet" markings is actually a bit annoying for longer measurements, where feet are likely to provide sufficient accuracy and I'd rather see "23 feet" than "276 inches". Metric is easier in this respect, of course.
(The other tape measure is the same brand and has the same style of markings.)
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Nick - 06 Jun 2009 08:39 GMT >> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the >> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both > scales. Absolutely standard in the UK. I'd be really surprised to find one that didn't have either.
Sometimes, if I just need to remember and transfer measurements from one thing to another, I'll use whichever scale they hit the tidiest value on, or whichever way round is easiest to line up.
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Mike Barnes - 06 Jun 2009 10:09 GMT In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the >>> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Absolutely standard in the UK. I'd be really surprised to find one that >didn't have either. Prepare to be surprised. All my tape measures are UK-sourced and marked in cm only, except one with inches as well that I keep for occasional conversions.
The tape measure in my desk drawer is a Fisco Uni-Matic, 3m, marked only in cm, Made in England. I've several others, of various lengths and brands, all cm-only.
https://www.jaydons.co.uk/d-i-y-3/hand-tools-12/measure-level-187/fisco- unimatic-ii-tape-2033.htm http://tinyurl.com/kjuepg
Single-scale rulers are convenient because you can use them left- or right-handed, whichever is better for the job in hand.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jun 2009 15:40 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Single-scale rulers are convenient because you can use them left- or >right-handed, whichever is better for the job in hand. I have one of these 30m fibreglass tapes. http://tinyurl.com/l4famk
It has metric on one side of the tape and feet and inches on the other (obverse and reverse). http://www.peterduncanson.net/images/30mTape%20lores.jpg
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister - 07 Jun 2009 00:26 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Single-scale rulers are convenient because you can use them left- or > right-handed, whichever is better for the job in hand. I seem to remember years ago when I was at school... OK, make that decades ago... our rulers had inches on one side and centimetres on the other. Each edge of the inches side had different fractions of an inch - I think tenths for one and eighths for the other. Can't remember about the metric side, but it might have been plain centimetres for one edge (not very useful) and millimetres for the other.
Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Sara Lorimer - 07 Jun 2009 21:27 GMT > Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they > were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used > them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me. "Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught with one?
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Robin Bignall - 07 Jun 2009 21:38 GMT >> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used >> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me. > >"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught >with one? You lost your feet.
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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:17 GMT >>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >You lost your feet. One inch at a time?
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Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 04:40 GMT >>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but >>>> they were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > One inch at a time? It's a game of centimeters.
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Wood Avens - 07 Jun 2009 21:38 GMT >> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used >> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me. > >"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught >with one? Doubtless all sorts of punishments were meted out. Being hanged from the yard-arm, for instance.
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Mike Page - 07 Jun 2009 22:44 GMT >>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Doubtless all sorts of punishments were meted out. Being hanged from > the yard-arm, for instance. Detention?
Decimation?
Lashes with the cat o' ten tails?
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Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:19 GMT >> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used >> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me. > > "Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught > with one? Can't remember, but I assume there was a fine - not for possession, but for manufacture.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jun 2009 04:44 GMT >>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Can't remember, but I assume there was a fine - not for possession, but > for manufacture. The phrase "flourishing black market in imperial rulers" has a certain ring to it, innit.
 Signature Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 08 Jun 2009 10:03 GMT >>>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >>>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The phrase "flourishing black market in imperial rulers" has a certain ring >to it, innit. "Up with local democracy. Down with Imperial Rulers."
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
John Kane - 08 Jun 2009 15:22 GMT > >>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they > >>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > Roland Hutchinson 50,000 sesterces bid for Nero (musical instruments not included).
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Richard Bollard - 09 Jun 2009 03:52 GMT >> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used >> them to measure something or other on the screen, which sounded iffy to me. > >"Banned" sounds rather extreme. What was the punishment for being caught >with one? It sounds extreme to me too. I seem to recall that a new rule would be marked in metric only but I was never aware of any ban, just a perceived lack of demand. Anyone who grew up with an awareness of inches would naturally prefer to have both scales on a rule. It seems completely redundant to have the same information on both sides, but maybe not for people who want to measure from both ends without flipping the rule to do so.
A rule lasts an awfully long time so mixed measures still abound. Most tape measures I have seen bear both scales.
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R H Draney - 09 Jun 2009 04:30 GMT Richard Bollard filted:
>It sounds extreme to me too. I seem to recall that a new rule would be >marked in metric only but I was never aware of any ban, just a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >A rule lasts an awfully long time so mixed measures still abound. Most >tape measures I have seen bear both scales. I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular cross-sections, with each of the six edges marked in different scales...there were inches in tenths, twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of those, and one in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r
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tony cooper - 09 Jun 2009 05:11 GMT >Richard Bollard filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of those, and one >in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r Remember them? I have one in my desk drawer. No tenths, though. 1 1/2", 3/32", 1/8", 3/38, 1/2", and 1" with submultiples. Made by Dietzgen.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Skitt - 09 Jun 2009 18:42 GMT >> I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular >> cross-sections, with each of the six edges marked in different [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 1/2", 3/32", 1/8", 3/38, 1/2", and 1" with submultiples. Made by > Dietzgen. I have a wooden one and a plastic-set-in-metal one. Haven't used either one in yonks, though.
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 09:59 GMT In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular cross-sections, with >each of the six edges marked in different scales...there were inches in tenths, >twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of >those, and one >in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r I still use a triangular scale like that, but designed for reading distances directly from drawings at various scales - from 1:1 to 1:2500 (300 mm to 745 m). It also works for scales outside that range, so for example I can measure on a 1:50000 map (a popular leisure map size here in the UK) using the 1:50 scale, and read off the result as km instead of m.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
R H Draney - 09 Jun 2009 10:19 GMT Mike Barnes filted:
>In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote: >>I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular cross-sections, with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >in the UK) using the 1:50 scale, and read off the result as km instead >of m. And so the Pondial differences continue...the preferred scale back when I was doing orienteering was 1:62500, which in the field is as near an-inch-equals-a-mile as makes no difference....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 10:37 GMT In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote:
>Mike Barnes filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >doing orienteering was 1:62500, which in the field is as near >an-inch-equals-a-mile as makes no difference....r The predecessor of our current 1:50k map series was similar at 1:63360, exactly one inch to the mile. From what I can make out the changeover period was approximately 1974 to 1987. Some old-timers refer to the 1:50k maps as "one inch" maps, and the 1:25k maps as "two and a half inch maps".
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 23:14 GMT >And so the Pondial differences continue...the preferred scale back when I was >doing orienteering was 1:62500, which in the field is as near >an-inch-equals-a-mile as makes no difference....r Those were the maps covering a "square" 15 minutes of longitude and latitude. New maps, from about the latter 1960s on were 7.5 minute maps and were at a scale of 1:24000.
The Army used maps at scales of 1:25000 and 1:50000. Somewhere here I have a map of Fort Knox that accidentally followed me home when I was released from the Army in the 1960s, and I believe it is at 1:25000, but I can't seem to find it easily at the moment.
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Mike Lyle - 09 Jun 2009 23:16 GMT > In alt.usage.english, R H Draney wrote: >> I fondly remember the drafting rulers with the triangular [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > leisure map size here in the UK) using the 1:50 scale, and read off > the result as km instead of m. Somebody seems to have swiped my scale rule, but I've got another nice ruler which might well be a century and a half old, but in poor condition. Made by W.E.Pain of Cambridge, the numerous very precise scales on its boxwood show things like 145 sixteenths of an inch and 4 times an inch and three-quarters; there are a couple of small patches of 64ths.
 Signature Mike.
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 23:01 GMT >Richard Bollard filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >twelfths and sixteenths, a couple of multiples or submultiples of those, and one >in centimeters and millimeters (for export to Canada, I reckon)....r I still have several triangular scales, one of them metric. The scales are marked in, well, scales, the primary scale being 1:100. The numbers indicate meters, but they are a centimeter apart. It also has scales at 1:200, 1:400, 1:250, 1:300 and 1:500. The plastic box that came with it says it is for archtects. I'm not familiar with metric architectural drawings, but I presume those are common scales used. I bought it decades ago, but I'm finding it useful with the feds' new topo maps, which are metric.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:18 GMT >>Richard Bollard filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ago, but I'm finding it useful with the feds' new topo maps, > which are metric. I remember that every well-stocked drugstore used to carry among its school supplies both "architect's rules" of that sort and "engineer's rules" with a somewhat different selection of scales.
If I recall correctly, the architect's rule scales were ruled for reading distances so-many feet to the inch (so not exactly the same as the metric version described above), while the engineer's scales may have been ruled in other sorts of round-number relationships not necessarily relating feet and inches (such as 100:1 or the like).
 Signature Roland Hutchinson
He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )
Skitt - 11 Jun 2009 18:09 GMT >>> Richard Bollard filted:
>>>> It sounds extreme to me too. I seem to recall that a new rule >>>> would be marked in metric only but I was never aware of any ban, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > may have been ruled in other sorts of round-number relationships not > necessarily relating feet and inches (such as 100:1 or the like). When I was working as a grade checker on highway construction (during college summer vacations), for elevations we worked in feet and tenths of feet, not inches. I used a measuring stick I made myself and a small hand level. This was for sub-grade, of course. The signals I flashed the grader operator (bladesman) were also signifying tenths of an inch.
 Signature Skitt (AmE)
Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 18:14 GMT >I remember that every well-stocked drugstore used to carry among its school >supplies both "architect's rules" of that sort and "engineer's rules" with a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >other sorts of round-number relationships not necessarily relating feet and >inches (such as 100:1 or the like). I have an American architect's triangular scale in front of me. It is marked in scales like "1 1/2", which means that on that scale 1.5 inches equals a foot, in other words a scale of 1:8. The scales are designed to be able to measure feet and inches, say 2ft-3 1/2 inches.
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 10:00 GMT In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:
>Anyone who grew up with an awareness of >inches would naturally prefer to have both scales on a rule. Most people might - I don't.
>It seems >completely redundant to have the same information on both sides, but >maybe not for people who want to measure from both ends without >flipping the rule to do so. Exactly. Also a single-unit measure can have larger numbers, making it easier to read. Assuming you meant the same information on both edges rather than both sides.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Richard Bollard - 10 Jun 2009 23:41 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote: >>Anyone who grew up with an awareness of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >easier to read. Assuming you meant the same information on both edges >rather than both sides. Is an edge not a side?
For some reason this reminds me of a nice usage by Australia Post in their definitions of large and normal letters. They define a normal letter as oblong but a large letter as rectangular. The distinction, it turns out, is to define anything that is, for example, square as a "large" letter even if it has a smaller are than a normal letter. Normal letters must be oblong and the square root of two gets into the ratio of the sides. These are cheaper even if they are larger than a square "large" letter (say a gift card).
WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong. Now I know different.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Mike Barnes - 11 Jun 2009 07:58 GMT In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote:
>>In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote: >>>Anyone who grew up with an awareness of [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Is an edge not a side? You can see both edges at once, but to see the other side, you have to turn the rule over (or bend it).
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Richard Bollard - 12 Jun 2009 04:00 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Richard Bollard wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >You can see both edges at once, but to see the other side, you have to >turn the rule over (or bend it). Fair enough. Many of mine are transparent (I used them to get one across my father).
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Jerry Friedman - 12 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT ...
> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong. WIWAK I was confused by the word "oblong", which grown-ups used as if everyone would know it. It seemed to mean "rectangle" or "oval".
-- Jerry Friedman
the Omrud - 12 Jun 2009 08:23 GMT > .... > >> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong. > > WIWAK I was confused by the word "oblong", which grown-ups used as if > everyone would know it. It seemed to mean "rectangle" or "oval". Rectangle; never oval in BrE.
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James Hogg - 12 Jun 2009 09:21 GMT Quoth the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com>, and I quote:
>> .... >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Rectangle; never oval in BrE. I have always thought of oblong as being rectangular, but now I realise that it can occasionally mean oval. OED defines it as:
"Elongated (usually as a deviation from an exact square or circular form); esp. rectangular with the adjacent sides unequal."
Oliver Goldsmith could write of an oblong egg, and the most recent quotation is from 2001, "This large, oblong fruit has a tough, green exterior". It doesn't say what this Caribbean fruit is, but I bet it's not rectangular. Botanists also describe leaves as oblong.
I have just had this problem in a translation. The Swedish counterpart "avlång" occurs in 18th-century explanations of why some substances are more fluid than others. It's because they consist of round particles which roll more easily than "avlång" ones. I won't translate it as "oblong", though.
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R H Draney - 12 Jun 2009 11:16 GMT James Hogg filted:
>Quoth the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >circular form); esp. rectangular with the adjacent sides >unequal." I've also encountered it used to describe a rectangle with rounded-off corners; the "bubtangle" of Ed Yourdon's DFDs....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Mark Brader - 12 Jun 2009 19:27 GMT Richard Bollard:
>>>> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong. Jerry Friedman:
>>> WIWAK I was confused by the word "oblong", which grown-ups used as if >>> everyone would know it. It seemed to mean "rectangle" or "oval". "David":
>> Rectangle; never oval in BrE. James Hogg:
> I have always thought of oblong as being rectangular, but now I > realise that it can occasionally mean oval. ... When I was a precocious little boy who had recently immigrated from England to Canada with my parents, I learned "oblong" as a word for a rectangle before I learned "rectangle" with the same meaning.
I think there may have have been a period when I believed that the difference was that a square was a kind of rectangle while an oblong was a rectangle that was not a square, and then I decided that that was just an artifact of the way I had learned the words and that "oblong" was just baby-talk for "rectangle", all of this without actual reference to a dictionary.
I then basically stopped encountering the word "oblong" at all, which probably means my parents were the ones who had been using it and they stopped doing so -- until, years later, I saw it being used to mean "oval". I was surprised.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 13 Jun 2009 12:35 GMT > Richard Bollard: >>>>> WIWAL, I thought that rectangle was the grown-up word for oblong. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I then basically stopped encountering the word "oblong" at all, I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym for "rectangke".
> which > probably means my parents were the ones who had been using it and they > stopped doing so -- until, years later, I saw it being used to mean > "oval". I was surprised.
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Wood Avens - 13 Jun 2009 14:41 GMT >I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym >for "rectangle". Same here. The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird one.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 13 Jun 2009 16:09 GMT >>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym >>for "rectangle". > >Same here. The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird >one. Agreed. For some reason I got hold of the idea that some people used oblong to mean a rectangle with rounded corners. It wasn't until I came to AUE that came across the oval meaning and then realised that I might have been mistaken when I understood it to mean a rectangle with rounded corners.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Richard Bollard - 15 Jun 2009 03:58 GMT >>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >have been mistaken when I understood it to mean a rectangle with rounded >corners. This is why I found the usage so interesting and looked further. To find one source using both terms apparently so carefully was intriguing.
I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the sides. One term allows the square where the other doesn't.
I don't like this idea of an oval being an oblong although I suppose it may be one with *very* rounded corners.
If you asked the young me if a square was an oblong, I'd have said "no way". Then again, I probably would have opposed the idea of a square being a rectangle. Now I know it is just a special case.
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Robert Bannister - 16 Jun 2009 01:03 GMT > I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles > and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the > sides. One term allows the square where the other doesn't. I would agree with that.
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Rob Bannister
Richard Bollard - 17 Jun 2009 01:23 GMT >> I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles >> and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the >> sides. One term allows the square where the other doesn't. > >I would agree with that. Hmmm, how did "know" get there for "now"?
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R H Draney - 17 Jun 2009 04:32 GMT Richard Bollard filted:
>>> I know think of "rectangle" being about the rectitude of the angles >>> and "oblong" being about the obligatory relative longness of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Hmmm, how did "know" get there for "now"? It's that damn metric unit-confusion again, innit....r
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Richard Bollard - 18 Jun 2009 01:43 GMT >Richard Bollard filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >It's that damn metric unit-confusion again, innit....r Kno, kno a thousand times no.
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Earle Jones - 23 Jul 2009 05:09 GMT * An optimist sees the glass half full. An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
earle (engineer) *
Murray Arnow - 23 Jul 2009 14:57 GMT >* >An optimist sees the glass half full. >An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. A good engineer says the glass is thrice as big as it needs be.
R H Draney - 23 Jul 2009 16:54 GMT >>* >>An optimist sees the glass half full. >>An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. A good systems analyst says the glass has 100% reserve capacity....r
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 23 Jul 2009 18:14 GMT >>* >>An optimist sees the glass half full. >>An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. >> > A good engineer says the glass is thrice as big as it needs be. I would have thought that a good engineer would say that it was about half again as big as it needs to be. You have to allow some margin.
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Murray Arnow - 23 Jul 2009 18:53 GMT >>>* >>>An optimist sees the glass half full. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I would have thought that a good engineer would say that it was about >half again as big as it needs to be. You have to allow some margin. In practice, the safety margin is usually 3. I don't know why that is the factor, but it is fairly common.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Jul 2009 05:41 GMT >>>>* >>>>An optimist sees the glass half full. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > In practice, the safety margin is usually 3. I don't know why that > is the factor, but it is fairly common. In that case, it's about a third too small.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never attempt to teach a pig to 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |sing; it wastes your time and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |annoys the pig. | Robert Heinlein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572
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Roland Hutchinson - 24 Jul 2009 12:44 GMT > >>>>* > >>>>An optimist sees the glass half full. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > In that case, it's about a third too small. Or it needs to be half again as large.
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Prai Jei - 23 Jul 2009 21:35 GMT Earle Jones set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum:
> An optimist sees the glass half full. > An engineer says the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. The binge drinker says make it a double.
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Ian Jackson - 13 Jun 2009 16:27 GMT >>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym >>for "rectangle". > >Same here. The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird >one. I must admit that it has come as a bit of a surprise to me that "oblong" means anything other than "rectangle" (or "rectangular"). I suppose it is similar to "elongated". But of course, for a circle and a sphere, we do have perfectly good words, such as "oval" and (I suppose "ovoid"?). But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is that an oblong too?
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franzi - 13 Jun 2009 20:14 GMT On Jun 13, 4:27 pm, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <22b7355d5e3v7j5klkic5dsk4qqoqn2...@4ax.com>, Wood Avens > <woodav...@askjennison.com> writes>On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:35:37 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > is similar to "elongated". But of course, for a circle and a sphere, we > do have perfectly good words, such as "oval" and (I suppose "ovoid"?). Ovoid is eggy, but not so eggy as ovate, both meaning oval with one end pointier than the other. Lilliputians care about this. We also have obovoid, in which one end is blunter than the other, but not so much more so than in obovate. The ob- prefix sets up a contrast. In eggs, the contrast is which way up they lie.
> But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is that an > oblong too? Oblong means having contrast due to length, and until this thread the idea of an oblong being an oval wasn't in my head. Strict rectitude was called for.
On the question: all cubes are rectangular blocks, but not all rectangular blocks are cubes. Oblong rectangular blocks are right parallelepipeds, if you want my opinion.
-- franzi
R H Draney - 13 Jun 2009 21:23 GMT franzi filted:
>On Jun 13, 4:27=A0pm, Ian Jackson ><ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Ovoid is eggy, but not so eggy as ovate, both meaning oval with one >end pointier than the other. Lilliputians care about this. We also [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >rectangular blocks are cubes. Oblong rectangular blocks are right >parallelepipeds, if you want my opinion. ObGeometry: I vaguely recall there being a special term that distinguished rectangular prisms with two dimensions the same and the third different from those with all three dimensions different....r
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franzi - 13 Jun 2009 23:28 GMT > franzi filted: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > rectangular prisms with two dimensions the same and the third different from > those with all three dimensions different....r In the trade, the former are square rods.
If you go shopping for any, be careful to speak clearly, or you may come home with a bundle of stair rods. Then you'd have spare rods, and the risk of spoilt children to boot. -- franzi
R H Draney - 14 Jun 2009 02:50 GMT franzi filted:
>> ObGeometry: I vaguely recall there being a special term that distinguishe= >d [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >come home with a bundle of stair rods. Then you'd have spare rods, >and the risk of spoilt children to boot. I'd rather have spare ribs, if you don't mind....r
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Robert Bannister - 15 Jun 2009 01:12 GMT > franzi filted: >>> ObGeometry: I vaguely recall there being a special term that distinguishe= [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I'd rather have spare ribs, if you don't mind....r Thinking about creating an Eve or two?
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Robert Bannister - 14 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT >>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>> it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is that an > oblong too? "box-shaped".
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Athel Cornish-Bowden - 14 Jun 2009 07:02 GMT >>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>> it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "ovoid"?). But what do you call a cube that is a rectangular block? Is > that an oblong too? I learned "cuboid" with that meaning, but I've rarely if ever heard it outside of a geometry class.
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Robin Bignall - 13 Jun 2009 21:22 GMT >>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym >>for "rectangle". > >Same here. The thought that it might also mean "oval" is a very weird >one. Yes, I thought that. I think "oblong" is a word I learned when very small, certainly long before "rectangle".
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Amethyst Deceiver - 14 Jun 2009 17:07 GMT >>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Yes, I thought that. I think "oblong" is a word I learned when very >small, certainly long before "rectangle". I have just asked YoungBloke (5.5yrs) what a rectangle is. He drew a rectangle in the air. I asked him what an oblong is and he didn't know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that the current term is definitely rectangle.
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R H Draney - 14 Jun 2009 17:31 GMT Amethyst Deceiver filted:
>I have just asked YoungBloke (5.5yrs) what a rectangle is. He drew a >rectangle in the air. I asked him what an oblong is and he didn't >know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that >the current term is definitely rectangle. He's probably much too young to appreciate this show:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblongs
....r
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Nick - 14 Jun 2009 19:01 GMT >>>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that > the current term is definitely rectangle. My (just) 6 year old said that she knew what both "oblong" and "rectangle" meant. When asked the difference she explained that an oblong is like this (drew it in the air) and said it had long and shorter sides, and that if you stretch an oblong "out like this" it turns into a rectangle.
On being asked if that meant it was between a square and a rectangle she agreed. Her slightly elder sister agreed.
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tony cooper - 14 Jun 2009 19:03 GMT >>>>I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say >>>>it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >know. He was at nursery before he went to school, so it appears that >the current term is definitely rectangle. Grandsons are over, so I asked the eldest (5.5 but hasn't started school yet because of the date of his birth). Without hesitation he drew a rectangle. To "What does oblong mean?", I got a baffled shrug.
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Robert Bannister - 14 Jun 2009 00:02 GMT > I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say > it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym > for "rectangke". I still use "oblong" too, but I take it to mean "shaped like a rectangle"; in other words, the angles might not be exactly 90°, but near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2009 08:20 GMT Robert Bannister wrote, in <79ipgoF1p76fjU1@mid.individual.net> on Sun, 14 Jun 2009 07:02:48 +0800:
> > I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't say > > it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary synonym [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into > that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does. Indeed. There is a lack of precision about oblong.
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Nick - 14 Jun 2009 13:37 GMT >> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't >> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into > that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does. What about a rectangle with scalloped corners? Like this, for example: http://fewebb.com/images/REESE.JPG
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the Omrud - 14 Jun 2009 14:29 GMT >>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't >>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What about a rectangle with scalloped corners? Like this, for example: > http://fewebb.com/images/REESE.JPG Not for me, in either case. Oblong *means* rectangle to me.
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Frank ess - 14 Jun 2009 20:11 GMT >>>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I >>>> don't say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Not for me, in either case. Oblong *means* rectangle to me. Rectangle is a noun, for me.
Rectangular and oblong are adjectives, in my vocabulary.
An oblongated object need not have rectangular corners.
I'd say an eclair is oblong. But not for long.
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Robert Bannister - 15 Jun 2009 01:14 GMT >>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't >>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What about a rectangle with scalloped corners? Like this, for example: > http://fewebb.com/images/REESE.JPG I'd be happy to call that an oblong.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jun 2009 04:45 GMT >> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't >> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > near enough so it looks roughly like that. An oval does not fit into > that category, but a rectangle with rounded corners does. For me, a canonical oblong is what you get when you take a circle, cut it in half, and insert a rectangle between the two halves. I could allow the curvature of the ends to be a bit shallower (squished toward the middle), but probably not to the point of having any significant straight section and perhaps the elongated edges being bowed out a bit, but not to the point of being an oval.
MWCD11 says
deviating from a square, circular, or spherical form by elongation in one dimension
which seems tocover both my understanding and yours. Around here, if I were buying tablecloths, I'd expect to choose primarily from "circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong". Calling a rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle".
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R H Draney - 15 Jun 2009 04:56 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>For me, a canonical oblong is what you get when you take a circle, cut >it in half, and insert a rectangle between the two halves. I could [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >"circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong". Calling a >rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle". Would you consider this an oblong?
http://www.oberonplace.com/products/plotter/tutor/images/superellipse.gif
Piet Hein (of "Grooks" and Soma cubes fame) called it a superellipse...where an ellipse has the formula (x/a)²+(y/b)²=1, the superellipse is given by abs(x/a)^2.5+abs(y/b)^2.5=1
As the exponent increases to infinity, the equation yields a shape closer and closer to a rectangle....r
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Mark Brader - 15 Jun 2009 07:09 GMT R.H. Draney:
> Would you consider this an oblong? > > http://www.oberonplace.com/products/plotter/tutor/images/superellipse.gif You mean this:
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=59.33255,18.0652&t=k&z=18 [Requires JavaScript enabled]
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James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 07:21 GMT Quoth msb@vex.net (Mark Brader), and I quote:
>R.H. Draney: >> Would you consider this an oblong? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=59.33255,18.0652&t=k&z=18 > [Requires JavaScript enabled] Funny, that's twice Piet Hein has come up in the past few days, with reference to two of his inventions, the gruk and the superellipse.
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Mark Brader - 15 Jun 2009 07:36 GMT James Hogg:
> Funny, that's twice Piet Hein has come up in the past few days, > with reference to two of his inventions, the gruk and the > superellipse. (That's "grook" in English.)
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James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 07:51 GMT Quoth msb@vex.net (Mark Brader), and I quote:
>>>You mean this: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >(That's "grook" in English.) Indeed it is.
I have now seen two different accounts of the origin of the superellipse. That super-reliable source Wikipedia says:
"After Liberation, Scandinavian architects, tired of square buildings but cognizant that circular buildings were impractical, asked Piet Hein for a solution. Applying his mathematical prowess to the problem, Piet Hein created the superellipse which became the hallmark of modern Scandinavian architecture."
The other comes from David Helldén, the architect responsible for the design of Sergels Torg in Stockholm:
"It was Christmas 1959. Piet Hein and I were sitting talking in his Rungsted Skovhus. 'What are you working on now?' he asked. 'I'm having trouble with a curve for Sergels Torg,' I said. ... Piet Hein was silent for a while, studied my sketch and then said slowly: 'There must be a bend with a continuously varying curve', and he started to write figures on a sheet of paper. In a minute the formula was there and the 'Superellipse', as he immediately christened it, had entered the general consciousness."
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John Holmes - 15 Jun 2009 13:15 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > As the exponent increases to infinity, the equation yields a shape > closer and closer to a rectangle....r I was thinking of those as well. I'd call those oblong at exponents of about 3-4 and above, and provided that a/b is not too close to 1. That's because they appear to have ends as well as sides, even though no part of them is perfectly straight. But Evan's two half-circles on a rectangle wouldn't qualify, since they don't have "ends".
For anybody who is keen to play with generalised superellipses, and who can handle a 90MB download, there's a nice toy available at: http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/SuperellipseShapes/
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jun 2009 14:37 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > http://www.oberonplace.com/products/plotter/tutor/images/superellipse.gif Yeah, that works for me.
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Mike Barnes - 15 Jun 2009 07:57 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>For me, a canonical oblong is what you get when you take a circle, cut >it in half, and insert a rectangle between the two halves. A running track?
For me (and many Brits, I think) that isn't an oblong. An oblong is the shape of a sheet of writing paper. Yes, I know the definition is actually more general than that, but I was taught that an oblong is a rectangle that is not a square.
The NSOED definition of the adjective includes "esp. rectangular with adjacent sides unequal", in which the word "adjacent" seems entirely superfluous, almost misleading.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 15 Jun 2009 13:47 GMT >>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't >>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >"circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong". Calling a >rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle". OED says something similar:
A. adj. 1. a. Elongated (usually as a deviation from an exact square or circular form); esp. rectangular with the adjacent sides unequal. b. Bot. Of a leaf: approximately rectangular, or broadly linear, in shape, with long straight sides and blunt or slightly rounded ends. Of a plant: having such leaves. c. Of a sheet of paper, page, picture, postage stamp, etc.: rectangular, with the breadth greater than the height; in landscape as opposed to portrait format. {dag}2. fig. Disproportionately long; drawn out. Obs. nonce-use. B. n. An oblong figure or object; esp. a rectangle of greater length than breadth.
So, it appears that an oblong is a non-square rectangle, an enclosed curved shape that is a squished circle or a combination of these.
Add to that concave corners and we might have covered most if not all possibilities.
It don't use the word myself.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Robert Bannister - 16 Jun 2009 01:06 GMT >>> I don't think "oblong" has ever left my vocabulary, though I don't >>> say it very often. When I hear it I regard it as a quite ordinary [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "circular", "square", "rectangular", and "oblong". Calling a > rectangle an "oblong" seems as bizarre as calling a square a "circle". The dictionary sort of implies a pondial difference, but most of the other Americans who've written in this thread don't seem to agree with MWC or you. Perhaps it's more regional than pondial.
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Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:13 GMT >>> Australia banned rulers with imperial measurements for a while, but they >>> were reintroduced after protests from the IT industry who allegedly used [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > A rule lasts an awfully long time so mixed measures still abound. Which is precisely why rules require regulation. (Someone had to say it.)
ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts -- exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts.
> Most > tape measures I have seen bear both scales.
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Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 18:17 GMT >ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts -- >exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts. In engineering we call them "scales", e.g., "Hand me that engineer's scale".
My metric scale is the only one I still have the original box for, and the manufacturer labels it a "Triangular Scale".
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Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 18:24 GMT >>ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts -- >>exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >My metric scale is the only one I still have the original box >for, and the manufacturer labels it a "Triangular Scale". By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for measuring. Woe betide someone who uses one of my scales for making lines. Running a pen or pencil along the edge will ultimately damage the edge of the scale. You use the scale to mark off distances with dots or ticks and you use a straightedge or a triangle to make the actual line.
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Murray Arnow - 11 Jun 2009 19:16 GMT >By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is >used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >mark off distances with dots or ticks and you use a straightedge >or a triangle to make the actual line. Alan Chace, the University of Cincinnati Physics Department's Master Machinist, would have agreed with you almost completely. You would find yourself in an argument, however, over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no uncertain terms, the instrument was a rule not a ruler.
the Omrud - 11 Jun 2009 19:18 GMT >> By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is >> used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > yourself in an argument, however, over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no > uncertain terms, the instrument was a rule not a ruler. Yep, somebody at my school tried to enforce that. King Ludwig (the insane) was a ruler.
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James Silverton - 11 Jun 2009 20:08 GMT the wrote on Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:18:16 GMT:
>>> By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A >>> ruler is used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no uncertain terms, the >> instrument was a rule not a ruler.
> Yep, somebody at my school tried to enforce that. King Ludwig > (the insane) was a ruler. True enough but the battle of nomenclature was lost long ago.
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Hatunen - 11 Jun 2009 21:07 GMT >>By teh way, a ruler and a scale are different things. A ruler is >>used for ruling lines on a piece of paper, a scale is for [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >yourself in an argument, however, over "ruler." Alan maintained, in no >uncertain terms, the instrument was a rule not a ruler. OK. But you use it to rule lines, so to me it is a ruler.
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Richard Bollard - 12 Jun 2009 03:54 GMT ...
>ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts -- >exceptin' slide rules and (sometimes, some) other techie sorts. Same here insofar as ruler rules in usage. My father used to have it on auto correct whenever we asked for a "ruler" he would tell us that the Queen was a ruler, we wanted a "rule".
If you don't know the "correct" term then the old joke "mine's twelve inches but I don't use it as a rule" doesn't work.
 Signature Richard Bollard Canberra Australia
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Robert Bannister - 13 Jun 2009 01:42 GMT > ... >> ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts -- [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If you don't know the "correct" term then the old joke "mine's twelve > inches but I don't use it as a rule" doesn't work. When I was at school (back in England), we (presumably because of the teachers' usage) distinguished between a foot ruler and a metre rule. This may have been because the 12 inch ruler was used to rule lines while the metre rule appeared to mainly used to whack boys over the hand.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 13 Jun 2009 12:39 GMT >> ... >>> ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts -- [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > When I was at school (back in England), we (presumably because of the > teachers' usage) distinguished between a foot ruler and a metre rule. I've no idea what (if any) was the logic behind this difference, but that was exacty what I heard at school also. Maybe it had to do with the fact that a ruler was mainly used for ruling lines, whereas a metre rule was mainly used for measuring distances. Typographers use "rule" (but never "ruler") to mean a straight line.
> This may have been because the 12 inch ruler was used to rule lines > while the metre rule appeared to mainly used to whack boys over the > hand.
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Robert Bannister - 14 Jun 2009 00:06 GMT >>> ... >>>> ObAmE: we usually call 'em "rulers" rather than "rules" hereabouts [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> This may have been because the 12 inch ruler was used to rule lines >> while the metre rule appeared to mainly used to whack boys over the hand. To be serious this time, I suppose the reason was that metre rules were only found in science and occasionally maths classrooms.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 14 Jun 2009 06:26 GMT Rob Bannister:
>>> When I was at school (back in England), we (presumably because of the >>> teachers' usage) distinguished between a foot ruler and a metre rule. Athel Cornish-Bowden:
>> I've no idea what (if any) was the logic behind this difference, but >> that was exacty what I heard at school also. Maybe it had to do with the >> fact that a ruler was mainly used for ruling lines, whereas a metre rule >> was mainly used for measuring distances. ... Rob Bannister:
> ... I suppose the reason was that metre rules were > only found in science and occasionally maths classrooms. Reading this again now, I realize that I have a different difference. The "rulers" I first used were opaque plastic or sometimes wood and were typically a foot long (30 cm), or sometimes about 6 inches (15 cm), marked in 16ths of an inch and in 10ths of a centimeter (by which I mean there were 10 marks at 1 mm intervals between the numbers 2 and 3, say).
Later I encountered metal ones (often somewhat longer, up to about 17 inches or 40 cm), which might be marked in 32nds for part of their length; and still later what I now consider the best kind for most purposes, clear plastic, which are usually 6-12 inches, with the inch scale sometimes in 10ths instead of 16ths. Any of these or other similar variations I call a "ruler".
But the other kind I commonly encountered in school was a relatively thick piece of wood a yard long, typically marked along just one side in inches, and only in eighths, nothing finer. And the only name I have for this is a "yardstick". When I got to high school science, we had the metric equivalent, a meter long, marked only in 10ths of a centimeter (as explained above), and the name we used for this was definitely "meter stick".
However, right now I have at home the metal equivalent of this, only with an inch scale *as well*, and this I call a ruler. So for me, it seems that whether it's a "ruler" or a "...stick" depends not only on the length but also the material.
My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it could by folded for convenient storage or unfolded to measure a length of something like 5 feet, but was not good for drawing long straight lines. As I recall it was made of wood but with some hard white finish like on a bamboo slide rule, with brass joints. This I know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much that I'd use "rule" for.
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John Kane - 14 Jun 2009 19:59 GMT > My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments > each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much > that I'd use "rule" for. My father had one too, and I think my grandfather on my mother's side, also had one. I think they were quite common before the advent of the retracting tape measure.
John Kane Kingston ON
Pat Durkin - 14 Jun 2009 21:32 GMT On Jun 14, 1:26 am, m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments > each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much > that I'd use "rule" for. John Kane: My father had one too, and I think my grandfather on my mother's side, also had one. I think they were quite common before the advent of the retracting tape measure.
Pat Durkin: Here is one that I found among my brother's stuff. I think I stowed it in another "safe" place when the 5-year-old boy next door had it out and was using it as a sword/machine gun. He can convert _anything_ into a weapon. It is probably 50 years old. My older brother, 20 years deceased, seemed to find old tools fascinating.
Well, I just went straight to my screw-driver/hammer box and found it in the first place I looked. I think it is a kind of steel, quite flexible, 12 leaves riveted together, measuring 6 feet (72 inches) I have a hard time reading the inches and tenths (1 to 71 on one side, 71 to 1 on the other). Can't find my WD-40, so I used veg. oil to clean it a bit.
The numbers aren't as large as on this one: http://tinyurl.com/levxe2 for: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Lufkin-Metal-Folding-Ruler-%3E-Antique-Tool-Tools_W0 QQitemZ350202952346QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090517?IMSfp=TL090517129001r39430 And, the fractions of the inch appear on both edges, and the numbers are in a path down the center. It looks like millimeters in one section on one side of the first (or last) leaf. That section isn't even an inch long. The number 72 doesn't appear. As with the images, the last leaf ends squarely about an inch beyond the "7" on each end. On one side it seems to read "GER" or "GBR" after the "71" The folded ruler is about 1/2 inch thick.
the Omrud - 14 Jun 2009 22:19 GMT >> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments >> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > also had one. I think they were quite common before the advent of the > retracting tape measure. My Dad (one-time draughtsman) had one, probably still does. It's called an "engineer's rule". There's a little game which draughtsmen played with new recruits: you have to entirely unfold the rule with only three moves, each of which must be away from you. It's not really difficult but it takes a while to figure it out.
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Leslie Danks - 14 Jun 2009 22:30 GMT >>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments >>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > moves, each of which must be away from you. It's not really difficult > but it takes a while to figure it out. They're still common enough on Austrian building sites. They have the advantage over retractable steel rules that they can be used to take measurements in mucky places, and will even survive being dropped into a bucket of mortar.
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Mark Brader - 15 Jun 2009 01:13 GMT Mark Brader:
>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments >> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it >> could by folded for convenient storage or unfolded to measure a >> length of something like 5 feet ... This I know as a "folding rule"... John Kane:
> My father had one too, and I think my grandfather on my mother's side, > also had one. I think they were quite common before the advent of the > retracting tape measure. Makes sense. Ours wasn't that old, though. He acquired it around 1968-70, and I'm sure he had a 6-foot retractable tape measure well before that.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.
tony cooper - 15 Jun 2009 04:02 GMT >> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments >> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >also had one. I think they were quite common before the advent of the >retracting tape measure. I hate posts that make me feel really old. I have a folding rule in my garage in the workbench drawers. I still use it occasionally because it's a rigid ruler and I can poke it places where the retracting tape measure bends and use it on a horizontal surface without it bending. One of these days I'll buy one of those heavy, wide retractable tape measures that doesn't get all wobbly when extended.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 15 Jun 2009 13:52 GMT >>> My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments >>> each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >wide retractable tape measures that doesn't get all wobbly when >extended. Feel younger again. Folding rules are still available (new): http://tinyurl.com/ksescc
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Hatunen - 14 Jun 2009 23:54 GMT >My father used to have a device that consisted of about 8-10 segments >each 6-8 inches long, hinged together near their ends, so that it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >know as a "folding rule" and it's the only such device I've used much >that I'd use "rule" for. That's a carpenter's (folding) rule, still available. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruler
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Mike Lyle - 08 Jun 2009 23:48 GMT >>> Incidentally, the several rulers and tape measures that the >>> installer and I have between us are all calibrated in inches one [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Absolutely standard in the UK. I'd be really surprised to find one > that didn't have either. Me, too. Until I looked around the house, and found, as well as a standard clear plastic rule in inches and metric, one unbranded "non-shatter" rule marked in cm one edge and mm the other, and a very old 9" boxwood one marked in eighths and twelfths on the obverse and tenths and sixteenths on the reverse. My steel tapes and two sewing-box tapes are biunitary; there's also a sewing-type one which is metric only, and I rather think that came from a school.
> Sometimes, if I just need to remember and transfer measurements from > one thing to another, I'll use whichever scale they hit the tidiest > value on, or whichever way round is easiest to line up. Yes, I'm promiscuous, too.
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John Kane - 06 Jun 2009 16:50 GMT > > Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time. How much > > time, as Evan asked? I don't know. Studying physics, I had to [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both > scales. Completely normal in Canada and has been since, I believe, the 1960's. I don't think we have the dual speedometer numbering that we used to have, though.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
J. J. Lodder - 06 Jun 2009 20:42 GMT > > Like Mike B has said, you get used to it after a time. How much > > time, as Evan asked? I don't know. Studying physics, I had to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > when you were done, you converted it back to the units you were used > to. But typically, it didn't matter all that much. America just has to go metric. Nowadays the American kiddies have become to dumb to do all the sums needed for all those conversions. (don't blame me, not my joke, it's a quote)
> The exception was the internalization that light travels at (just > under) a foot a nanosecond. That visualization became important when > dealing with systems that had nanosecond-level synchronization > requirements, and so cable lengths in The Amazing Grace always carried her nanosecond with her. She had a sailor carrying the microsecond (spooled), and some picosecond dust. ,
> > but using it routinely in real life took decades. I'm about 2/3 of > > the way through having a new kitchen installed (difficult bits which [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > US was unusual in having rulers and tape measures that had both > scales. Certainly not. They are common in thoroughly metricated countries as well. (I have several of them)
Jan
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:08 GMT >America just has to go metric. Why?
(As I noted elsewhere, America is already metric where it needs to be.)
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Murray Arnow - 06 Jun 2009 23:37 GMT >>America just has to go metric. > >Why? > >(As I noted elsewhere, America is already metric where it needs >to be.) This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in many places. The most notable place is the military. Medical practice is to use metric measurements with the exception of measuring body temperature. And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common in engineering, although not universal. One major exception to metric usage is agricultural; comestibles have successfully avoided metricization. And of course, distances just won't submit to the metric system. There was an ill-fated attempt years past to post signs in km and miles, but that went the way of Burma Shave signs.
Personally, I enjoy systems of mixed units. It keeps you on your toes. I think the British may have suffered a national drop in IQ by adopting a decimal based currency.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 23:49 GMT > This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have > re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in > many places. The most notable place is the military. Medical > practice is to use metric measurements with the exception of > measuring body temperature. Are you sure about that exception? They may convert when they tell you, but I'm pretty sure that it's at least reasonably common (especially in hospitals) for body temperature to be measured and recorded in Celsius. (Though not Kelvin.)
> And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all > electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common in > engineering, although not universal. One major exception to metric > usage is agricultural; comestibles have successfully avoided > metricization. Huh? All food and beverage packaging with I believe, the possible exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and non-metric) units.
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Murray Arnow - 07 Jun 2009 00:45 GMT >> This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have >> re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and >non-metric) units. I wasn't referring to legal requirements. I was speaking to what is done in practice. When was the last time you bought a kilo of peaches? Although, some soft drinks are sold by metric units, milk and whiskey aren't. The custom of selling food in English units is so common a "huh?" could be asked about your huh? Also, other commodities have escaped the metricization, gems and jewelry.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 02:19 GMT >>> And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all >>> electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I wasn't referring to legal requirements. I was speaking to what is > done in practice. In practice, all prepackaged food has its size given in metric units. Not necessarily round metric units, but not necessarily round non-metric units, either. I'm not sure how that counts as "successfully avoiding metricization".
> When was the last time you bought a kilo of peaches? I don't know. I picked up the peaches and put them in a bag. Did I buy 21 oz or did I buy 595 g? If I weigh them, it's on a scale that tells me ounces and grams. If I want to buy a kilo of peaches, it's pretty straightforward. I'll grant you that this is one area in which the posted price may well only be in non-metric units. (Or may not.)
> Although, some soft drinks are sold by metric units, milk and > whiskey aren't. Whiskey is, by law. Only in metric units. I don't believe there are any legal non-metric "standards of fill" for hard liquor.
> The custom of selling food in English units is so common a "huh?" > could be asked about your huh? Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American comes in contact with the metric system every day.
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Murray Arnow - 07 Jun 2009 02:41 GMT >Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American >comes in contact with the metric system every day. He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the chap will begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when his recipe books use metric measures only.
tony cooper - 07 Jun 2009 02:52 GMT >>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American >>comes in contact with the metric system every day. > >He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the chap will >begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when his recipe books use >metric measures only. I'm a PC user who uses Adobe Photoshop CS4 and Lightroom2. At this moment, there are three books on my desk that I'm working through to improve my skills in Photoshop. Every book I've ever read on Photoshop gives each keystroke command for both users of PCs and Macs: "Command-J PC: Control J".
I would expect recipe books to use similar instructions, but it would be a bit more difficult since there are not even equivalents.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 06:47 GMT >>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American >>comes in contact with the metric system every day. > > He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the > chap will begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when > his recipe books use metric measures only. I'll keep checking the ones on my shelves. When they change, I'll let you know.
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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:20 GMT >>Packaged food is one of the only places that the average American >>comes in contact with the metric system every day. > >He may have daily contact, but he seems to ignore it. I suspect the chap will >begin paying more attention to the metric labeling when his recipe books use >metric measures only. As long as the recipe books continue to be written by Americans, that remains unlikely.
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Egbert White - 07 Jun 2009 14:02 GMT >> This subject cycles through AUE every few years. You have >> re-iterated what I said in the past. Metric units are standard in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >(especially in hospitals) for body temperature to be measured and >recorded in Celsius. (Though not Kelvin.) I've recently observed that at a Kaiser Permanente hospital the nurses measure your temperature by sticking a probe in your ear, the temperature in Celsius then appearing on a digital display. It was also interesting that there was a conversion table on the wall of each room listing Celsius temperatures for small increments of a degree alongside the equivalent Fahrenheit temperatures. I suspect that the table may have been motivated by the frequency of the question from patients: "What's that in Fahrenheit?"
>> And all scientific work is done in metric units. Of course, all >> electrical measurements are metric. Metric units are very common in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and >non-metric) units. I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric molded in the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit. At least that's true of a bottle from the Door Peninsula Winery I just looked at (750 ml). Also, a jug of Christian Brothers VS Brandy is labeled 1.75 liter with no mention of Fahrenheit.
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tony cooper - 07 Jun 2009 14:26 GMT >I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric molded in >the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit. At least >that's true of a bottle from the Door Peninsula Winery I just looked >at (750 ml). Also, a jug of Christian Brothers VS Brandy is labeled >1.75 liter with no mention of Fahrenheit. I think you can save some time and stop examining wine bottles for signs of measurement of capacity in Fahrenheit.
You might, however, find a reference on a wine label to "chill", but that seems to work in both Fahrenheit and Celsius.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Egbert White - 07 Jun 2009 15:35 GMT >>I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric molded in >>the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit. At least [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I think you can save some time and stop examining wine bottles for >signs of measurement of capacity in Fahrenheit. That's true, thank you. My headbone sometimes does strange things early in the morning. I really did know better.
 Signature Egbert White WAmE
Nick - 07 Jun 2009 17:17 GMT > On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper > <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That's true, thank you. My headbone sometimes does strange things > early in the morning. I really did know better. I thought you were being whimsical.
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Leslie Danks - 07 Jun 2009 17:35 GMT > On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper > <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That's true, thank you. My headbone sometimes does strange things > early in the morning. I really did know better. I thought you were deliberately pulling our plonkers. You didn't need to confess.
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James Hogg - 07 Jun 2009 17:45 GMT Quoth Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at>, and I quote:
>> On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper >> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I thought you were deliberately pulling our plonkers. You didn't need to >confess. It could easily have been an American equivalent to the British:
"750 ml - what's that in old money?"
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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:21 GMT >Quoth Leslie Danks <leslie.danks@aon.at>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >"750 ml - what's that in old money?" A fifth of a gallon.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Skitt - 09 Jun 2009 01:30 GMT > James Hogg wrote: >> Quoth Leslie Danks, and I quote: >>> Egbert White wrote:
>>>>>> I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric >>>>>> molded in the glass near the base with no mention of Fahrenheit. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > A fifth of a gallon. Better known as just "a fifth". <hic>
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John Kane - 09 Jun 2009 14:36 GMT > >> Quoth Leslie Danks, and I quote: > >>>>>> I think wine bottles typically have their capacity in metric [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Better known as just "a fifth". <hic> I'd always wondered why that volume was called a 'fifth'.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 22:53 GMT >> >> "750 ml - what's that in old money?" >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I'd always wondered why that volume was called a 'fifth'. See the wonderful things you cvan learn online? Of course, it's a tad too late to need that one.
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Egbert White - 07 Jun 2009 18:17 GMT >> On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:26:01 -0400, tony cooper >> <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I thought you were deliberately pulling our plonkers. You didn't need to >confess. Okay, I hereby retract my confession.
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Roland Hutchinson - 08 Jun 2009 04:36 GMT > On Sun, 07 Jun 2009 18:46:09 +0200, Leslie Danks > <leslie.danks@aon.at> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Okay, I hereby retract my confession. You clearly aren't expecting the British Inquisition.
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pat - 27 Jun 2009 16:35 GMT >All food and beverage packaging with I believe, the possible >exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and >non-metric) units. You are referring to products controlled by the FPLA. As you say, the FPLA mandates both units. As you say, beer is controlled by the Treasury (I think). The law for beer labels mandates non-metric units and leaves metric units optional. Milk is controlled by the USDA. The law for beer labels mandates non- metric units and leaves metric units optional.
These laws make 100% metric labels illegal. There are companies like Proctor&Gamble that want to be able to import/export 100% metric products. Currently, they have to pay the costs of relabeling or face a fine.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jun 2009 16:36 GMT >>All food and beverage packaging with I believe, the possible >>exception of beer, is required to be labeled with metric (and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > USDA. The law for beer labels mandates non- metric units and leaves > metric units optional. And the law for wine and hard liquor mandates metric units and, I believe, forbids non-metric units. Consistency? What consistency?
> These laws make 100% metric labels illegal. There are companies like > Proctor&Gamble that want to be able to import/export 100% metric > products. Currently, they have to pay the costs of relabeling or > face a fine. I find it hard to believe that there is a whole lot that meets all of the other American labeling requirements but can't be imported because it doesn't have non-metric units (in addition to metric units, which it has at the mandated precision). Of course, if it existed, that could be solved trivially by having other countries not *forbid* non-metric units (in addition to metric units). Which would also not punish people who wanted to import products the other way without relabeling.
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pat - 28 Jun 2009 18:09 GMT >And the law for wine and hard liquor mandates metric units and, I >believe, forbids non-metric units. For wine and liquor, metric units are compulsory (as you say). Non- metric units are optional (but they aren't forbidden, as you believed). You are correct to say that the law is an impediment to wine/liquor trade with countries outside the US that forbid metric units on the label. The USDA published a list of relevant countries (http://www.fas.usda.gov/htp2/circular/1998/98-03/nowine.html) and they are dominated by countries that do not forbid metric units.
The US wine/liquor industry used to use units like "fifths" but the industry asked for a change in label laws and now we have the current metric laws.
>that could be solved trivially by having other countries not *forbid* >non-metric units (in addition to metric units). I'm a bit confused by that. Which countries do you think forbid non- metric units on the label?
Evan Kirshenbaum - 28 Jun 2009 19:53 GMT >>And the law for wine and hard liquor mandates metric units and, I >>believe, forbids non-metric units. > > For wine and liquor, metric units are compulsory (as you say). Non- > metric units are optional (but they aren't forbidden, as you > believed). I had thought that when they went to metric "standards of fill", the labeling requirements were changed to say that that was how (and only how) the contents could be stated. But maybe I read more into it. The rules state that
The net contents of distilled spirits shall be stated in the same manner and form as set forth in the standards of fill in § 5.47a.
and
Words or phrases qualifying statements of net contents are prohibited.
I had thought that the second part was held to rule out non-metric units, but I could well have been mistaken.
> You are correct to say that the law is an impediment to wine/liquor > trade with countries outside the US that forbid metric units on the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I'm a bit confused by that. Which countries do you think forbid non- > metric units on the label? I assumed that it was inherent in your example. If Procter & Gamble wants can't import things without relabeling, I presumed that if the only thing mandating relabeling for the US market was that the products made for sale elsewhere was the lack of non-metric units, the simple solution would be to just put both units on in the first place (or getting their suppliers to do so) for sale in both markets. The only reason I could see for that not to be done would be that the other market didn't allow it.
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Mark Brader - 29 Jun 2009 01:38 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum:
>> that could be solved trivially by having other countries not *forbid* >> non-metric units (in addition to metric units). Pat Norton:
> I'm a bit confused by that. Which countries do you think forbid non- > metric units on the label? As we're talking about US products labeled by volume, for most of the British commonwealth it wouldn't matter whether non-metric units are allowed or not -- labels using "fluid ounces" or "pints" or "quarts" or "gallons" that are not the Imperial units of those names would not be acceptable.
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pat - 03 Jul 2009 19:18 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> Words or phrases qualifying statements of net contents are > prohibited. > > I had thought that the second part was held to rule out non-metric > units, but I could well have been mistaken. The term 'qualifying' has a similar meaning to 'modifying'. Similar regulations expand it a bit: ************************************************************************************* "It shall not include any term qualifying a unit of weight, measure, or count (such as jumbo quart and full gallon ) that tends to exaggerate the amount of the food in the container."
"shall not include any term qualifying a unit of weight or mass, measure, or count such as “jumbo quart,” “giant liter,” “full gallon,” “when packed,” “minimum,” or words of similar import." *************************************************************************************
>the simple solution would be to just put both units on in the first place >(or getting their suppliers to do so) for sale in both markets. The >only reason I could see for that not to be done would be that the >other market didn't allow it. Yes. If businesses in the rest of the world complied with US label laws, relabeling wouldn't be required. Some of the huge cosmetic firms do exactly that but they are exceptional. Most products in the metric world don't have US units on the label. The problem occurs at the time the transatlantic trade is initiated.
As Mark Brader says below, labels that say "pint", "quart" or "gallon" are misleading (or inadequate) for transatlantic trade between the US and Commonwealth countries. There are laws that forbid these particular units but only in countries that used identical named units of different size and hence the old name will mislead the older customer.
The proposal to amend the FPLA will remove the technical barrier and make free trade easier.
Mark Brader - 03 Jul 2009 19:24 GMT Pat Norton:
> As Mark Brader says below, ObAUE: Below?
> labels that say "pint", "quart" or "gallon" are misleading (or inadequate) > for transatlantic trade between the US and Commonwealth countries. Not to mention cisatlantic trade.
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James Silverton - 03 Jul 2009 21:20 GMT Mark wrote on Fri, 03 Jul 2009 13:24:50 -0500:
> Pat Norton: >> As Mark Brader says below,
> ObAUE: Below?
>> labels that say "pint", "quart" or "gallon" are misleading >> (or inadequate) for transatlantic trade between the US and >> Commonwealth countries.
> Not to mention cisatlantic trade. Fortunately, containers usually give the volume in fluid ounces. The US and Canadian fluid ounces are not identical but close enough (I don't dare say "For government work" :-)
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Mark Brader - 04 Jul 2009 02:20 GMT Mark Brader:
> > Not to mention cisatlantic trade. James Silverton:
> Fortunately, containers usually give the volume in fluid ounces. I wouldn't go as far as "usually".
> The US and Canadian fluid ounces are not identical but close enough > (I don't dare say "For government work" :-) And labeling standards *are* government work, and a 4% difference won't do.
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pat - 04 Jul 2009 07:18 GMT > James Silverton: >>Fortunately, containers usually give the volume in fluid ounces. > >I wouldn't go as far as "usually". Nor would I. The US fluid ounce is rarely seen in Europe. An exception is cosmetics produced by huge multinationals.
>>The US and Canadian fluid ounces are not identical but close enough >>(I don't dare say "For government work" :-) > >And labeling standards *are* government work, and a 4% difference >won't do. Indeed. It is the worst case that counts in law. If you deliver 4% too little, it is illegal. If you deliver 4% too much it isn't a legal error but it is a cost.
J. J. Lodder - 07 Jun 2009 22:28 GMT > >America just has to go metric. > > Why? > > (As I noted elsewhere, America is already metric where it needs > to be.) Why snip the reason given and then ask why?
Jan
Ildhund - 06 Jun 2009 20:56 GMT Robin Bignall wrote...
> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle > teens... No-one has mentioned the schism that took place, in my school at any rate, around 1960. Until then, we had been using a metric system called 'CGS,' but now we were to start thinking MKS. It could be that those who never experienced this - non-scientists, perhaps - got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to.
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Robin Bignall - 06 Jun 2009 21:34 GMT >Robin Bignall wrote... >> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the >millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to. I went to a CAT (College of Advanced Technology) that converted to an internal college of London University at the end of my first year. They believed in teaching you rather than lecturing at you, a style that suited me. One of my best friends (the one who joined the brain drain in 1967) started reading maths at Imperial College, where they lectured at you, the year before and failed his first year, so he converted to Physics. We both ended up with firsts, so the CAT style suited him, too.
I mention this because the CAT had a sort of "forget what you learned at school: we do physics this way" philosophy that basically started from scratch so it didn't matter much if you had been taught CGS or MKS. However, they went so fast through what you should have learned at school that if you hadn't you wouldn't be able to keep up.
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Don Aitken - 06 Jun 2009 21:43 GMT >Robin Bignall wrote... >> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the >millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to. Or not, as the case may be. The insistence that the centimeter is not a proper unit has probably done more than anything else to inbibit acceptence of the metric system. Ordinary unbrainwashed people simply insist on having a unit of length larger than a millimetre and smaller than a meter; the centimeter is used as a matter of course everywhere where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of SI was invented.
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Mark Brader - 06 Jun 2009 21:52 GMT > ... The insistence that the centimeter is not > a proper unit has probably done more than anything else to inbibit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of > SI was invented. Hey, mind your religious slurs there! Anticentimeterism is no part of the mainstream SI religion; it's a holier-than-thou breakaway sect that accepts only *part* of SI.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:26 GMT >> ... The insistence that the centimeter is not >> a proper unit has probably done more than anything else to inbibit [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >of the mainstream SI religion; it's a holier-than-thou breakaway sect >that accepts only *part* of SI. "Breakaway" my a.s. Centimeterism was around when SI wasn't even a gleam in Rutherford's eye. SI is the heresy.
Maybe we need a full forum at Nicea.
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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 02:24 GMT Don Aitken:
>>> ... the centimeter is used as a matter of course everywhere >>> where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of >>> SI was invented. Mark Brader:
>> Hey, mind your religious slurs there! Anticentimeterism is no part >> of the mainstream SI religion; it's a holier-than-thou breakaway sect >> that accepts only *part* of SI. Dave Hatunen:
> "Breakaway" my a.s. Centimeterism was around when SI wasn't even > a gleam in Rutherford's eye. SI is the heresy. Disanticentimeterist!
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Robert Bannister - 07 Jun 2009 00:29 GMT >> Robin Bignall wrote... >>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > where the metric system has been in use since before the religion of > SI was invented. I wouldn't have thought the average builder was brainwashed, but they all seem to work and think in millimetres these days.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:23 GMT >Robin Bignall wrote... >> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >got stuck in the centimetre/cc mire instead of progressing to the >millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others eventually got used to. Worse yet, when I entered engineering school in 1954 we were taught FPS, even in physics class.
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Murray Arnow - 06 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT >>Robin Bignall wrote... >>> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Worse yet, when I entered engineering school in 1954 we were >taught FPS, even in physics class. Yah, but that was an after thought. It was included to show that such units existed. The FPS units disappeared after Physics 101.
HVS - 06 Jun 2009 22:44 GMT On 06 Jun 2009, Ildhund wrote
> Robin Bignall wrote... >> Studying physics, I had to start thinking "metric" in my middle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > progressing to the millimetre/meter/millilitre gamut we others > eventually got used to. There's still certainly a divide in the UK, at least in construction, between consumer and industry measurements, where centimetres are still used for labelling goods for sale to the public.
(DIY shops, for example, will sell you a door that's "73 x 195.5" -- a measurement that would never, ever be found in a building specification.)
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 06 Jun 2009 23:38 GMT >On 06 Jun 2009, Ildhund wrote > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >a measurement that would never, ever be found in a building >specification.) B&Q seem to use mm sizing. http://tinyurl.com/nnf8nw
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Nick - 07 Jun 2009 07:11 GMT >>On 06 Jun 2009, Ildhund wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > B&Q seem to use mm sizing. > http://tinyurl.com/nnf8nw My god, you found something on the B&Q web site. We are not worthy of your presence.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 22:02 GMT >> But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common >> named units that are so small and so close together. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > hectis and hectos or hectas or whatever) is, at 1000 (100 if you're > lucky) just far, far too large for people sized things. I've previously voiced my own theory (which is mine) that when it came time to define the meter, the main unit in use was the yard, and so they looked for a scientific way to get something close to a yard, settling on 1/10-millionth of the distance between the equator and the north pole as being usefully close. Unfortunately, as you note, decimal divisions of this unit don't really yield a useful "foot" (the distance between hands held apart in front of the body) or "inch" (the distince between thumb and index finger).
If they had been going for the foot rather than the yard, they would probably have taken the whole circumference of the earth, divided by 100 million and gotten about 15.8 inches, which would make a perfectly good "foot". A tenth of that would be a bit over an inch and a half, which is a good "inch". Two would make a good informal substitution for a yard. Ten would be eight tenths of a rod, a thousand would be about two furlongs, and ten thousand would be just over two and a half miles, each reasonable for those uses. The equator would be a nice round 100 megaunits in length.
Taking the cube of the deciunit as your volume base would give you just over a quarter of a cup. A tenth of that is a third more than a teaspoon, the smallest used volume unit commonly used. And ten volume units gives you 21.76 ounces, about halfway between a pint and a quart (and very close to a British pint).
Taking one volume unit's mass of water as your mass unit would give you 2.18 ounces, and ten mass units would be a usable 22-ounce "pound".
All of these would likely, given the lack of standardization at the time, have been tolerably close to the magnitudes that people were used to that there would have been very little resistance, especially if they had been (at least initially) called "metric foot", "metric inch", "metric pint", etc.
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Richard Bollard - 09 Jun 2009 05:42 GMT ...
>decimal divisions of this unit don't really yield a useful "foot" (the >distance between hands held apart in front of the body) or "inch" (the >distince between thumb and index finger). You have me there. I can't see how or where you would make that (inch) measurement. I can, of course, hold my thumb and finger an inch apart but we don't want to beg the question. (Don't tell me that a "distince" is some special way of measuring that I am ignorant of.)
Jimmy the Oneth defined it as the width of the thumb at the base of the thumbnail. I checked this on my thumb and it is 2.5 cm, near as dammit.
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the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 08:33 GMT > .... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the thumbnail. I checked this on my thumb and it is 2.5 cm, near as > dammit. Hence the French for "inch" - "le pouce", which means "thumb". Although "la puce" means "flea" (this is a public service announcement).
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Lars Enderin - 09 Jun 2009 08:45 GMT >> .... >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Hence the French for "inch" - "le pouce", which means "thumb". Although > "la puce" means "flea" (this is a public service announcement). The Swedish word for inch is "tum". Thumb = "tumme".
Jens Brix Christiansen - 09 Jun 2009 09:00 GMT Lars Enderin skrev:
> The Swedish word for inch is "tum". Thumb = "tumme". Not to be outdone by our neighbors to the east: The Danish word for inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually "tommelfinger".
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Mike Lyle - 09 Jun 2009 23:19 GMT > Lars Enderin skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually > "tommelfinger". "Tommy Thumb, Tommy Thumb, Where are you? Here I am, here I am, How do you do?"
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Ildhund - 10 Jun 2009 10:14 GMT > Lars Enderin skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually > "tommelfinger". ...or perhaps just as usually "tommeltot".
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 10 Jun 2009 10:26 GMT Ildhund skrev:
> "Jens Brix Christiansen" <jens-usenet@alesia.dk> wrote in message
>> Not to be outdone by our neighbors to the east: The Danish word for >> inch is "tomme". Thumb = "tommel", but nowadays usually "tommelfinger".
> ...or perhaps just as usually "tommeltot". That would be a slightly more informal and maybe childish register, but I agree that it might easily be as common. One of my recent geocaches goes by that title:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?wp=GC1QMCG
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 16:00 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > measurement. I can, of course, hold my thumb and finger an inch apart > but we don't want to beg the question. That's pretty much what I meant. If you hold your thumb and finger apart and more-or-less parallel and relaxed (i.e., not feeling that you're "spreading" them), you'll probably find that they are somewhere between a bit less than an inch and around two-and-a-half inches apart. That's what I meant by "an 'inch'" in scare quotes. Not necessarilly 2.54 cm, but a unit somewhere in that range.
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Robert Bannister - 10 Jun 2009 01:52 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the thumbnail. I checked this on my thumb and it is 2.5 cm, near as > dammit. I thought it was the length of end section of the thumb, ie from the knuckle to the thumb tip.
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Nick Spalding - 10 Jun 2009 10:08 GMT Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800:
> > ... > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I thought it was the length of end section of the thumb, ie from the > knuckle to the thumb tip. Not very reliable, mine are 1¼".
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Mike Barnes - 10 Jun 2009 10:28 GMT In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote:
>Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> > on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Not very reliable, mine are 1¼". Or 1-3/4" in my case. One inch is the width of my knuckle.
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Mike Lyle - 10 Jun 2009 23:38 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote: >> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Or 1-3/4" in my case. One inch is the width of my knuckle. The rule of thumb I was taught was that an inch was the width of a man's thumb or the length of the top joint of his forefinger. I once bought some kind of cordage from a Welsh ironmonmger who measured it in yards as expressed by the distance from his finger tips to his nose.
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Robin Bignall - 11 Jun 2009 21:31 GMT >> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote: >>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >some kind of cordage from a Welsh ironmonmger who measured it in yards >as expressed by the distance from his finger tips to his nose. I think that you guys who have inch-wide thumbs and knuckles are bare-knuckle boxers and I willingly forego my claim to five quid.
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Richard Bollard - 12 Jun 2009 04:01 GMT >>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote: >>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I think that you guys who have inch-wide thumbs and knuckles are >bare-knuckle boxers and I willingly forego my claim to five quid. AIUI, small hands fibbed much harder than large ones. More punch to the point.
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Robin Bignall - 12 Jun 2009 21:47 GMT >>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote: >>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >AIUI, small hands fibbed much harder than large ones. More punch to >the point. I'm not quite with that. To fib, in BrE, means to tell lies, but not serious ones.
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Richard Bollard - 15 Jun 2009 03:43 GMT >>>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote: >>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >I'm not quite with that. To fib, in BrE, means to tell lies, but not >serious ones. Probably completely obsolete. Much used in bare-knuckle days and learned by me from Black Ajax by George MacDonald Fraser. Full of glorious slanguage from the era.
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Robin Bignall - 15 Jun 2009 21:37 GMT >>>>>> In alt.usage.english, Nick Spalding wrote: >>>>>>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >learned by me from Black Ajax by George MacDonald Fraser. Full of >glorious slanguage from the era. That's a new one to me, so I thought I'd look it up in OED. It's the second entry for "fib", dated 1814, meaning "a blow". I'll be blowed!
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Robert Bannister - 11 Jun 2009 01:22 GMT > Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> > on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Not very reliable, mine are 1¼". That is because your body is not built along the same lines as whichever ancient king (ruler?) defined the unit.
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R H Draney - 11 Jun 2009 04:11 GMT Robert Bannister filted:
>> Robert Bannister wrote, in <798eenF1po4igU2@mid.individual.net> >> on Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:39 +0800: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >That is because your body is not built along the same lines as whichever >ancient king (ruler?) defined the unit. I am reminded here of a certain piece of absurdist cinema, explained in one review as follows:
'In The Bed Sitting Room, Arthur Lowe elects himself Prime Minister one morning, simply because he measures his inside leg and finds he's "very well equipped... I always knew my inside leg would lead to power".'
....r
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 09 Jun 2009 08:47 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
> Unfortunately, as you note, > decimal divisions of this unit don't really yield a useful "foot" (the > distance between hands held apart in front of the body) or "inch" (the > distince between thumb and index finger). True. But there are other ways. When my wife spreads her fingers, the distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger is 20 cm for all practical purposes. She uses this fact all the time for small informal measurements.
When I stretch my arm out, the distance from the tip of my nose to the tip of my middle finger is 100 cm for all practical purposes - not that I use that measurement very often. I guess that this simply implies that I am big enough to have a personal fathom of 2 m.
> "metric pint", etc. As you probably already know, the metric pint for draft beer is half a liter.
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Mike Page - 09 Jun 2009 09:31 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > As you probably already know, the metric pint for draft beer is half a > liter. No substitute at all. An inadequate quantity.
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Mike Barnes - 06 Jun 2009 10:12 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >How many decades does it have to be before it ceases to be "quite >new"? It varies from person to person. Some adapt to it straight away, some never do. A lot depends on how much you use measurements in your day-to- day life. It's different if you grew up with it.
>>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure that >>>a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches. No 71-foot-tall people or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >American system to be unsure whether there are 3.3 or 39 feet in a >meter? My point is that people unfamiliar with cm and mm tend to get them confused. So they know 2.54 or 25.4 to the inch but aren't sure what it relates to. There aren't 39 feet in any unit that they're likely to come across.
>But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common >named units that are so small and so close together. Which is more-or-less what I just said, except for that "silly" bit, which is itself particularly silly. In detail...
"so small" - that relates to your viewpoint and existing method of working rather than the units themselves
"so close together" - hardly any closer than inch and foot, proportionally
More important to my mind is that mm and cm sound quite similar, which is an impediment only if you're not used to it.
>As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"? For me, a "doorway" has >connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches >seems a bit small. Were you thinking of a cabinet? That wouldn't be >a "doorway" here, I don't think. How extraordinary, that you think a person couldn't easily walk through a 35" doorway. The doorway to this room, like many in this old house, is a full 7" narrower than that. Yet my extremely fat friend Steve (of average height, weight must be approaching 300 lb, BMI of about 40) routinely sails through it without showing any sign of anxiety.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Nick Spalding - 06 Jun 2009 10:40 GMT Mike Barnes wrote, in <vl2t7EqRMjKKFw0S@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid> on Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:12:49 +0100:
> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > average height, weight must be approaching 300 lb, BMI of about 40) > routinely sails through it without showing any sign of anxiety. All the room doors here are 29" except for the bathroom which is 26". The front door is 31".
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 18:05 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > some never do. A lot depends on how much you use measurements in > your day-to- day life. It's different if you grew up with it. But we're talking about 35-40 years, right? Even for people in their 50s and 60s, that's nearly all of their adult life. "Still quite new" is a bit hard to take seriously after that long.
>>>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure >>>>that a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches. No 71-foot-tall people [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it relates to. There aren't 39 feet in any unit that they're likely > to come across. I'm still not seeing it. Why don't people unfamiliar with feet and inches tend to get them confused? Why don't they know (about) 39 to the meter and (about) 3.3 (or about 3) to the meter but not be sure which unit it relates to?
>>But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common >>named units that are so small and so close together. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "so close together" - hardly any closer than inch and foot, > proportionally I didn't say that it was silly for them to be so small or silly for them to be so close together. I said that it was silly for them to be so small and so close together.
[snip]
>>As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"? For me, a "doorway" has >>connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > average height, weight must be approaching 300 lb, BMI of about 40) > routinely sails through it without showing any sign of anxiety. Youn know, it's funny. Reading it, it actually never occurred to me that you would have been describing the width rather than the height. I can't quite decide whether I would expect to hear "36-inch doorway" rather than "36-inch-wide doorway".
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Mike Barnes - 07 Jun 2009 17:20 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >50s and 60s, that's nearly all of their adult life. "Still quite new" >is a bit hard to take seriously after that long. No, we're not talking about 35-40 years. I suspect (and this would be hardly surprising given the distance) that you're confusing metrication with currency decimalisation, which took place 38 years ago in the UK. With regard to decimalisation, it's been a very long time since there was any trace of the old money in everyday British life. And I don't detect any nostalgia for it, despite deep misgivings from many people at the time.
Metrication started much later and still in progress. Some people started trying to think metric about (I guess) 20 years ago. Some people still haven't started (and probably never will), and it was people towards that end of the spectrum that I was focussing on.
>>>>>And I don't recall seeing the analagous slip of not being sure >>>>>that a meter isn't 39 feet or 3.3 inches. No 71-foot-tall people [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >I'm still not seeing it. Why don't people unfamiliar with feet and >inches tend to get them confused? I'm not sure that they don't. I've already explained why I think you might perceive that to be more so than it generally is, and I won't repeat myself.
But if you're convinced they don't, here are some reasons for you to consider. Many European cultures have had something like feet and inches in their not-too-distant past and remnants exist. Inches are still mainstream in some applications even in continental Europe, for instance car wheel sizes, and (someone told me) TV screen sizes. And feet for heights of planes. I'm sure there are many others. "Foot" is pretty-much self-explanatory to anyone with a rudimentary English vocabulary. And unlike "millimetre" and "centimetre", the words "foot" and "inch" don't have 75% of their syllables in common.
>Why don't they know (about) 39 to >the meter and (about) 3.3 (or about 3) to the meter but not be sure >which unit it relates to? I don't know that they don't. I don't even know what conversion factors spring immediately to the mind of a continental European - their equivalent of that 25.4 that "everyone" knows in the UK and USA.
>>>But perhaps the point is really that it's silly to have two common >>>named units that are so small and so close together. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >them to be so close together. I said that it was silly for them to be >so small and so close together. However, if the metric units were bigger - say about 25 times as big - but still so close together, that wouldn't be "silly"? And they wouldn't be confused as often as they are? This is what you seem to be saying. If that's right, I'd like to know your reasoning.
>>>As an aside, and "894 mm doorway"? For me, a "doorway" has >>>connotations of something a person could walk through, and 35 inches [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Youn know, it's funny. Reading it, it actually never occurred to me >that you would have been describing the width rather than the height. Glad we cleared that one up. It never occurred to me that you might be referring to the height.
>I can't quite decide whether I would expect to hear "36-inch doorway" >rather than "36-inch-wide doorway". I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume you were talking about the dimension that's most often critical. Usually I think width is the critical dimension for a doorway, which is why it never occurred to me that you were talking about height. If I were you I'd be looking for some significant event in my past where height was actually the crucial dimension.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 19:34 GMT Mike Barnes:
> I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume > you were talking about the dimension that's most often critical. Usually > I think width is the critical dimension for a doorway, which is why it > never occurred to me that you were talking about height.... I don't recall ever running into a situation where *either* dimension of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or centimeters. Comparing it directly against an object, yes, but not measuring. (If you're trying to get an object through the door, it's not just the size of the opening that matters, but the configuration of the walls around it, so experiment is often easier than measurement.)
However, I certainly understand that Mike's earlier reference was to the width.
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Nick - 07 Jun 2009 19:35 GMT > Mike Barnes: >> I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or > centimeters. Buying a new door?
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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 19:45 GMT Mike Barnes:
>>> Usually I think width is the critical dimension for a doorway... Mark Brader:
>> I don't recall ever running into a situation where *either* dimension >> of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or >> centimeters. Nick Atty:
> Buying a new door? [Thinks rapidly]
No, what I did then was to measure the old door, not the doorway.
[Phew, got away with it!]
Anyway, in that circumstance one dimension isn't more critical than the other.
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Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:26 GMT > Mike Barnes: >> I think if you quote one unspecified dimension, most people would assume [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not just the size of the opening that matters, but the configuration of > the walls around it, so experiment is often easier than measurement.) You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker yet. I've had to measure the width of most of our doors (only the front door is wide enough).
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 06:30 GMT Rob Bannister:
> You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker > yet. I've had to measure the width of most of our doors ... Good point.
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Robin Bignall - 08 Jun 2009 21:44 GMT >Rob Bannister: >> You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker >> yet. I've had to measure the width of most of our doors ... > >Good point. My younger son is six foot seven. He can just about get under a standard French doorway of two metres without ducking, but he's been caught out with smaller doorways so often that ducking when going through any door is routine.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Ian Jackson - 08 Jun 2009 22:34 GMT >>Rob Bannister: >>> You are lucky that no-one in your family needs a wheelchair or a walker [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >caught out with smaller doorways so often that ducking when going >through any door is routine. As seen above low doors in many old English pubs, "Duck or Grouse".
 Signature Ian
Jerry Friedman - 09 Jun 2009 04:07 GMT On Jun 8, 3:34 pm, Ian Jackson <ianREMOVETHISjack...@g3ohx.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5ttq25tug4sjsfo0fk0p6tf07ms5h0q...@4ax.com>, Robin Bignall > <docro...@ntlworld.com> writes ...
> >My younger son is six foot seven. He can just about get under a > >standard French doorway of two metres without ducking, but he's been > >caught out with smaller doorways so often that ducking when going > >through any door is routine. > > As seen above low doors in many old English pubs, "Duck or Grouse". As someone four inches shorter than the younger Mr. Bignall, I find that sort of thing very amusing. Ha ha.
-- Jerry Friedman
John Kane - 08 Jun 2009 15:25 GMT > Mike Barnes: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of a doorway was critical, so that I would measure it in inches or > centimeters. Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a wheelchair on that one".
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Robert Bannister - 09 Jun 2009 01:19 GMT >> Mike Barnes: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a > wheelchair on that one". When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the lift was so small, there was only just enough room for the wheelchair and me. I presume they don't think that people with macular degeneration might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have lifts) have the best ones, because they allow room for shopping trolleys.
 Signature Rob Bannister
the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 08:34 GMT >>> Mike Barnes: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have lifts) have > the best ones, because they allow room for shopping trolleys. And airports.
 Signature David off to Munich for a couple of days
R H Draney - 09 Jun 2009 10:21 GMT the Omrud filted:
>> When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the >> lift was so small, there was only just enough room for the wheelchair [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >And airports. And Ikea....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 16:06 GMT >>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local >>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And airports. I don't think I've ever been in an elevator that had room for an airport. Seems excessive.
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the Omrud - 09 Jun 2009 20:45 GMT >>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local >>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I don't think I've ever been in an elevator that had room for an > airport. Seems excessive. These Germans don't do anything by halves.
 Signature David somewhere near Munich
franzi - 09 Jun 2009 21:15 GMT > >>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local > >>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > These Germans don't do anything by halves. Challenge: they play fussball, which is a game of two halves. But it's true they don't play Rugby fussball, a game of four halves (scrum-half and fly-half on each side).
The Germans, not half, are today celebrating the seventy-fifth birthday of the world's favoutite duck: <http://magazine.web.de/de/themen/unterhaltung/kultur/8303350-Die- beliebteste-Ente-der-Welt-wird-75,cc=0000055379000830335018UOOE.html>
This is Kultur with a kapital K. -- franzi
Roland Hutchinson - 11 Jun 2009 05:23 GMT >>>>> Wheelchair access? I was looking at an old elevator at the local >>>>> university the other day and thinking, " Almost impossible to get a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > These Germans don't do anything by halves. In Frankfurt they have one that can hold an airport on top of a train station.
 Signature Roland Hutchinson
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 08:40 GMT In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote:
>When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the >lift was so small, there was only just enough room for the wheelchair >and me. I presume they don't think that people with macular >degeneration might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have >lifts) have the best ones, because they allow room for shopping >trolleys. I don't think I've ever been in a supermarket lift. Airport lifts are usually pretty big.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Robert Bannister - 10 Jun 2009 01:56 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >> When I took my mother to a hospital specialising in eye problems, the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I don't think I've ever been in a supermarket lift. Airport lifts are > usually pretty big. Far too many supermarkets and airports only have escalators or very steep travellators, both of which are a nightmare for wheelchair users.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 09 Jun 2009 12:27 GMT >>> Mike Barnes: >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >might be old and wheelchair-boung. Supermarkets (that have lifts) have >the best ones, because they allow room for shopping trolleys. Not quite as good as general hospitals which have lifts which can take a a bed with a retinue of people.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Robin Bignall - 09 Jun 2009 21:56 GMT >>>> Mike Barnes: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Not quite as good as general hospitals which have lifts which can take a >a bed with a retinue of people. Up to now, but probably not for much longer, hospitals are the only place where I have to use a wheelchair. Mike Lyle touched on it a month or two back: the fact that modern hospitals built out of town centres expand horizontally such that it's a long way from one department to another. The one I visited today has its lifts some 200 yards from its front entrance, but that is nothing compared with one in Essex that a friend has to visit. It has a "passageway" almost a mile long, most of which is covered walkway connecting a linear array of buildings. Hospital wheelchairs themselves all appear to have been left over from the Victorian period.
 Signature Robin (BrE) Herts, England
Robert Bannister - 10 Jun 2009 01:58 GMT >>>> Mike Barnes: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Not quite as good as general hospitals which have lifts which can take a > a bed with a retinue of people. About the only good thing in hospitals that otherwise have carparks with insufficient space and immensely long corridors.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum - 07 Jun 2009 22:45 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > wouldn't be confused as often as they are? This is what you seem to > be saying. If that's right, I'd like to know your reasoning. "Man is the measure of all things." Once you get up to the scale where people have good reference objects, people's intuition kicks in. I think that's the reason why inches and feet or feet and yards aren't confused. I suspect it's true that if you grow up with it you get a feel for it, but looking historically at the sizes of units people have come up with, there seem to be intuitively salient sizes:
width of thumb/length of joint/index and thumb separation width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated arms outstretched/walking pace
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Mike Barnes - 07 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated > arms outstretched/walking pace And that makes any other measure "silly"? Sorry, I just don't buy that.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 16:15 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > And that makes any other measure "silly"? Sorry, I just don't buy > that. I never called any measure silly. As you acknowledged above. I thought we had moved beyond that. We were talking about the confusability of differences in sizes. At 25 times as big, you're in that realm, so the fact that you have measures from different rows manifestly doesn't seem to be confusable even though the rows are relatively small multiples of one another. The further you go away from the intuitive range, the more people tend to not be sure which units are being used, especially when they're close together. (E.g., people have no problem with seconds, minutes, and hours. They confuse milliseconds and microseconds all the time.)
The people who designed the metric system apparently agreed with me, although they disagreed as to where to draw the boundary. They took their meter (arms outstretched) and defined subunits a factor of ten apart for decimeter (hand span), centimeter (finger width), and millimeter. (And similarly factors of ten up through the "rod", "furlong", and "mile" ranges.) But then they switched to factors of a thousand. I suspect that the presence of both millimeters and centimeters comes from those two approaches (factors of a thousand and factors of ten through the intuitive range) rather than a notion that it was important to have a factor of ten difference at those two points. But maybe I'm wrong.
But whether or not millimeters are below the cut, I'd think you'd agree that at some level it might be strange for a designed system to have commonly-used non-technical units even a factor of ten apart. If there were a prefix for 10,000th and a unit for 100 microns, I'd hope you'd agree that there would be a lot more confusion between it and millimeters if people used it in their everyday life, which they probably wouldn't. I suspect that if the meter had been in the foot range, about a third its size, millimeters would be far less common outside of scientific domains.
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Mike Barnes - 08 Jun 2009 17:53 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >people have no problem with seconds, minutes, and hours. They confuse >milliseconds and microseconds all the time.) It's simply that people don't have difficulty using units that they've been using all their lives. I don't think you'll find continental Europeans getting their mm and cm mixed up. It's only people who didn't grow up using those units that have that problem. It's not the units themselves that are the issue, it's certain sections of the population. I remain unconvinced by your thesis that the reason you have observed cm and mm confused more often than inches and feet is due to an inherent defect in the metric system, which you called silly. Called the alleged defect silly I mean, not the system as a whole.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 18:38 GMT > It's simply that people don't have difficulty using units that > they've been using all their lives. I don't think you'll find [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > metric system, which you called silly. Called the alleged defect > silly I mean, not the system as a whole. I can deal with that. Especially if you can deal with the fact that someone may (as with the phrase that started this subthread) be unconvinced that using multiples of ten for conversion factors is necessarily a great advantage of a system when it comes to everyday measurements.
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Mike Barnes - 09 Jun 2009 08:10 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> It's simply that people don't have difficulty using units that >> they've been using all their lives. I don't think you'll find [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >necessarily a great advantage of a system when it comes to everyday >measurements. No problem, in fact I agree with you on that point. The real superiority of a power-of-ten system of units becomes apparent only when you look beyond "everyday measurements".
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Evan Kirshenbaum - 09 Jun 2009 15:53 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > superiority of a power-of-ten system of units becomes apparent only > when you look beyond "everyday measurements". I can certainly have no argument with that. (Although for many of my non-everyday tasks, powers of two are more useful.) "Pick a unit and stick with it through the calculations", with prefixes as a way to read off exponents, makes a lot of sense, and is what most people do even with non-metric units for tasks like that. And then possibly apply one non-trivial conversion to the result to get it into the appropriate flavor units.
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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 17:57 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum:
> The further you go away > from the intuitive range, the more people tend to not be sure which [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "furlong", and "mile" ranges.) But then they switched to factors of a > thousand. No, they didn't. When the system was designed, all the prefixes represented successive factors of 10 up and town from the base unit. The factors-of-1,000 prefixes are later additions.
Here are the earliest cites in the OED1 and OED Supplement for each of the prefixes from 10^-12 to 10^+12. Of course, these dates only relate to their use in English, and I haven't checked the OED Online to see if any have been antedated since the Supplement came out.
pico- 1915 [1] 1/1,000,000,000,000 nano- 1947 1/1,000,000,000 micro- 1873 1/1,000,000
milli- 1807 1/1,000 centi- 1801 1/100 deci- 1801 1/10
deca- [2] 1810 10 hecto- 1810 100 kilo- 1797 [3] 1,000 myria- 1804 10,000
mega- 1868 1,000,000 giga- 1951 1,000,000,000 tera- 1947 1,000,000,000,000
I think I may have read somewhere that myria-, which is now obsolete, was an early addition and not an original part of the system; but I'm not sure about that.
[1] The second cite is from the same 1947 source as the first cite for nano-, leading me to think that the use in 1915 was an unofficial or proposed use that did not catch on at the time.
[2] The spelling deka- is not mentioned at all.
[3] The definition of this one alone specifically states that it was "introduced in French in 1795, at the institution of the Metric system". Note the capital letter, incidentally. In some of the other definitions toward the start of the alphabet, i.e. in the first-written part of the dictionary, the expression is "the French metric system".
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jun 2009 18:28 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum: >> The further you go away [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > was an early addition and not an original part of the system; but I'm > not sure about that. Interesting. I had thought that at least "micro" and "mega" had been part of the initial spec. The main ones have been pushed back to 1797. From the entry for "myriametre":
1797 _Jrnl. Nat. Philos._ Aug. 196 This usual and portative measure..was called metre. Proceeding..from this measure as the common unity, its multiples have been named by prefixing to the word metre, one of the Greek words deca, hecaton or hecto, chilia or kilo, and myria, which signify ten, a hundred, a thousand, and ten thousand; and its sub-multiples by means of the Latin prefixes deci, centi, milli.
I was apparently mistaken. Millimeters (or perhaps small-denominator fractions of them) were probably seen as as far down as you'd have to go.
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Mark Brader - 08 Jun 2009 20:29 GMT Mark Brader:
>> No, they didn't. When the system was designed, all the prefixes >> represented successive factors of 10 up and town from the base unit. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> I haven't checked the OED Online to see if any have been antedated >> since the Supplement came out. Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Interesting. Thanks.
> The main ones have been pushed back to 1797. Not surprising. Thanks for checking.
> From the entry for "myriametre": > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hundred, a thousand, and ten thousand; and its sub-multiples > by means of the Latin prefixes deci, centi, milli. I wonder if the reason they stopped at 1/1,000 and 10,000 is that Latin and Greek didn't have single words for numbers larger than 1,000 and 10,000 respectively!
> I was apparently mistaken. Millimeters (or perhaps small-denominator > fractions of them) were probably seen as as far down as you'd have to > go. The other point is that the limited range of prefixes would (I presume) have been an issue in determining how large to make the two base units. If what we call the centimeter had been the base unit of length, as in the later CGS metric system, then applying myria- to this would have produced what we actually call the hectometer, which at about 330 feet or 1/16 mile is an inconveniently small unit for inter-city distances, whereas in 1795 where was little use for a unit 100 times smaller than a millimeter.
Similarly, if what we call the kilogram had been the base unit of weight or mass, as in the later MKS or SI system, then applying milli- to this would have produced what we call the gram, an inconveniently large unit for accurate measurement of things like drugs or coins. (On the other hand, applying kilo- would have produced what we now call a megagram or tonne or metric ton, and that *is* a convenient-sized unit that might better have been fitted into the original system.) (I don't know how old the names "tonne" and "metric ton" for it are, by the way.)
The invention of additional prefixes has freed us from these constraints.
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Roland Hutchinson - 09 Jun 2009 05:05 GMT > Millimeters (or perhaps small-denominator > fractions of them) were probably seen as as far down as you'd have to > go. A millimeter is intermediate in size between the ligne (1/144 of the pied du roi) and the point (1/12 of the ligne).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_units_of_measurement
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J. J. Lodder - 08 Jun 2009 22:09 GMT > I never called any measure silly. As you acknowledged above. I > thought we had moved beyond that. We were talking about the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it was important to have a factor of ten difference at those two > points. But maybe I'm wrong. The idea that only powers of 10^3 should have prefixes is a recent invention.
> But whether or not millimeters are below the cut, I'd think you'd > agree that at some level it might be strange for a designed system to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > range, about a third its size, millimeters would be far less common > outside of scientific domains. It had been decided that the metre should be about yard size before the definition in terms the earth was invented. (as the seconds pendulum) Not a bad choice, about midway (logarithmically) in the dimensions that were practically measurable at the time.
Jan
Robert Bannister - 08 Jun 2009 01:29 GMT >> In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated > arms outstretched/walking pace Apart from "hands" for horses and "feet", it was a long time before I knew about the relationship between the old measurements and the size of some ancient king's body. "Feet" still puzzle me.
 Signature Rob Bannister
J. J. Lodder - 08 Jun 2009 09:17 GMT > > In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > width of hand/length of forearm/palms naturally separated > arms outstretched/walking pace Sure, no reason at all why a centurion's helmet, wagon, castellum, or distance to Rome should be measured in the same unit.
Jan
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:09 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote >>(And I had thought that the 1,500-cm-wide [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >concerned with the population that your general impressions were based >on, which is mainly American isn't it? I'm the poster, an American, and it was a pure dum-dum. I've been familiar with metric measurements since the early 1950s and my face turned a bit red realizing what I had done.
I think my mind got a bit muddled because I relized that most metric engineering work is done in millimeters, even for large objects such as locomotives. So, since sidewalks are a minor form of engineering my head was thinking 25.4 even as I meant centimeters.
In retrospect I found I could no longer remember if we had changed our specs to cm or mm.
As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved in some industries by using only inches and decimals of an inch. Thus, a drawing of a 1' 3-3/8" part will be labeled "15.38-in" or "15.37-in" with appropiate tolerances noted. Default tolerance is plus and minus one in the last place shown. Using "15.375 inches" implies an accuracy of a thousandth of an inch, and would only be used where that precision is require.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 18:55 GMT > As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another > in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > implies an accuracy of a thousandth of an inch, and would only be > used where that precision is require. So 15.37-in for 15 3/8 in means that the tolerance is .015" down and .005" up?
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 19:23 GMT >> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another >> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >So 15.37-in for 15 3/8 in means that the tolerance is .015" down and >.005" up? No. It means the part must be between 15.36 and 15.38. Plus and minus one in the last digit. This means 9.8 is different from 9.80. The former is to be between 9.7 and 9.9; the latter between 9.79 and 9.81.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jun 2009 20:11 GMT >>> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another >>> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 9.80. The former is to be between 9.7 and 9.9; the latter between > 9.79 and 9.81. I was misled by your calling it a 1' 3-3/8" part. To me, that's 15.375" with some tolerance. If the tolerance range goes down to 15.36" and up to 15.38", either it's an asymmetric tolerance, or you really meant 15.37", not 1' 3-3/8". In particular, if I'm buying from somebody spec'ing at 15 3/8", I'm going to need a supplier that gives tolerances of 0.005" or less, because anything wider might be too big. (If they spec at 15.37", of course, I'm fine with tolerances of 0.01".)
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:06 GMT >>>> As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another >>>> in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >I was misled by your calling it a 1' 3-3/8" part. Many times that's only a nominal size.
>To me, that's >15.375" with some tolerance. If the tolerance range goes down to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >tolerances of 0.005" or less, because anything wider might be too >big. So you are actually calling out a nominal size of 15 3/8"; the part is not going to be that size and you wouldn't want it to be exactly 15 3/8; mating a female and male part made to exactly the same size is difficult. You have to allow some space for moving them together or else the parts will bind. Although soemtimes you do want something like this. For instance, ball bearings are always mounted with a press fit where the shaft is slightly larger than the internal diameter of the bearing.
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Paul Wolff - 06 Jun 2009 23:06 GMT >On Sat, 06 Jun 2009 12:11:36 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum ><kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >always mounted with a press fit where the shaft is slightly >larger than the internal diameter of the bearing. Not in a conventional bicycle headset, to give one counter-example.
Which is my way of pointing out that 'ball bearing' is a general term for any kind of bearing based on a ring of balls rolling around a race[1], and what Dave Hatunen is referring to is only one kind of ball-bearing assembly with an inner bearing race which is a press fit over a shaft. So it's a bearing race that sometimes is a press fit, not every ball bearing.
[1] Nothing to do with the British Education Secretary and wannabee Chancellor of the Exchequer.
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Garrett Wollman - 07 Jun 2009 04:18 GMT >As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another >in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved >in some industries by using only inches and decimals of an inch. ObEnglishUsage: "Imperial" != "U.S. Customary".
-GAWollman
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Hatunen - 09 Jun 2009 01:12 GMT >>As for convenience when converting from one dimension to another >>in the American ("Imperial") system, that problem has been solved >>in some industries by using only inches and decimals of an inch. > >ObEnglishUsage: "Imperial" != "U.S. Customary". Thus the quote marks.
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Skitt - 05 Jun 2009 18:22 GMT <huge snippage>
>> Also "everyone" knew that for small distances you use cm. So the >> first thought was that an inch was 25.4 cm. [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > primary conversion factor, unless that was how it was taught before I > learned it. I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking countries. The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers, meters, and centimeters, with fractions added as necessary. Millimeters came into play only for very small distances. I guess, things have changed.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 18:50 GMT > I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking > countries. The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers, > meters, and centimeters, with fractions added as necessary. > Millimeters came into play only for very small distances. I guess, > things have changed. I would guess, based on German recipes from that era I've seen, that your usual kitchen fluid measurements were in deciliters (and fractions), which, at about half a cup is a useful size, as opposed to the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe predominates these days in the UK.
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 07 Jun 2009 16:19 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum skrev:
> I would guess, based on German recipes from that era I've seen, that > your usual kitchen fluid measurements were in deciliters (and > fractions), which, at about half a cup is a useful size, as opposed to > the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe > predominates these days in the UK. Current Danish recipes have fluid measurements in dl. When I mix batter for a small batch of crepes, I use one egg, 1 dl wheat flour, 1½ dl milk, a pinch of salt and a teaspoon of sugar. The teaspoon measure is 5 ml, but I don't think of it that way when measuring out the sugar.
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Leslie Danks - 07 Jun 2009 17:53 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > milk, a pinch of salt and a teaspoon of sugar. The teaspoon measure is 5 > ml, but I don't think of it that way when measuring out the sugar. I've had a look in a few (modern) German language cooking books. All the weights up to one kilogram are given in grams.
Volumes are given either in ml or in fractions of a litre (1/2 l, 1/4 l, 1/8 l); one book I found uses both systems, but not AFAIK in the same recipe. EL (tablespoon = approx. 15 ml) and TL (teaspoon = 5 ml) are used for smaller quantities.
I also found an "heirloom" - a book on South German cooking, published in 1902. Quantities are given in decilitres and decagrams. Interestingly, the decagram (abbr. "Deka") is still used for buying sausage, cheese, etc.
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John Holmes - 10 Jun 2009 12:06 GMT >> I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking >> countries. The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe > predominates these days in the UK. It's no great problem using millilitres, especially when they nearly always come in round multiples of five: 5, 10, 25, 100, 250 etc.
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Mike Barnes - 10 Jun 2009 14:06 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>I would guess, based on German recipes from that era I've seen, that >your usual kitchen fluid measurements were in deciliters (and >fractions), which, at about half a cup is a useful size, as opposed to >the fiddling small fifth-of-a-teaspoon milliliter that I believe >predominates these days in the UK. Speaking for myself, "375 ml" would work better than "3 3/4 dl", especially if I had to multiply or divide it.
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 19:45 GMT > I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking > countries. The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers, > meters, and centimeters, with fractions added as necessary. Millimeters > came into play only for very small distances. I guess, things have changed. Or things are different in countries like the UK where metric is a recent arrival. I think this is more likely. Is there anyone reading this thread who lives in continental Europe now, or has recently?
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Peter Brandt Nielsen - 06 Jun 2009 14:47 GMT > > I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking > > countries. The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > recent arrival. I think this is more likely. Is there anyone reading > this thread who lives in continental Europe now, or has recently? For everyday measurements, in Denmark, it strikes me as unusual to use millimeters for anything longer than a few centimeters. If I saw a computer printer measured in millimeters I would convert the numbers to centimeters in my head and think of them in those terms. Similarly, milliliters might be used on food packaging, but in a recipe I would expect deciliters and liters.
If those of us who are accustomed to metric measurements are less likely to make mistakes about inches and feet than the other way around it might be because of traditional measuements in our own countries. I'm Danish and in my twenties, but I'm aware of the old measurements of "tomme" and "fod", which were used before the metric system and were roughly equivalent to English inches and feet. ("Tomme" is still used for select items such as television screens, now apparently based on the English length of an inch.)
Ian Jackson - 06 Jun 2009 16:15 GMT In message <fa618e31-c24c-466b-aa8d-4cfedc5e9760@j18g2000yql.googlegroups.com>, Peter Brandt Nielsen <peterbrandtnielsen@gmail.com> writes
>> > I spent my first sixteen years in Europe, but not in English-speaking >> > countries. The usual units of distance measurements were kilometers, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >milliliters might be used on food packaging, but in a recipe I would >expect deciliters and liters. The pedantic use of mm seems silly to me.
I first came across this in the early 80s, when the company I worked for had to get planning permission to attached a sign (bearing the company name) to the front wall of the office. It was probably not long after we 'went metric' for many things.
The company draughtsman produced a detailed drawing of what was planned (showing the front elevation of the building and the position of the sign. The width of the building was about 60 feet (say 18m?), but this (and all the other dimensions) had to be indicated accurately in mm. Obviously the local council planning committee liked big numbers (or didn't understand decimals).
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 07 Jun 2009 16:16 GMT Peter Brandt Nielsen skrev:
> For everyday measurements, in Denmark, it strikes me as unusual to use > millimeters for anything longer than a few centimeters. Exactly. But that is for everyday measurements. For engineering and construction, millimeters are the norm for measurements up to several meters - perhaps even up to 20 m. I used to work in the railroad business, and I think of the standard railroad gauge as 1435 (mm of course), but I am 188 tall (cm of course).
Similarly, I think of my car as being 385 cm long (or 3.85 m), but it says 3850 (mm of course) in the specs.
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Mark Brader - 07 Jun 2009 20:34 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum:
> (Confusing 8' and 8" is another story, but that's a > matter of not remembering which symbol goes with which unit.) In fact, as well as feet and inches, the single and double prime are also used to represent minutes and seconds of arc and sometimes also for minutes and seconds of time, and I've seen them used for hours and minutes of time, so there's a nice way to be confusing! And according to Russ Rowlett's site, they are also used sometimes for minutes and seconds of right ascension, which of course are 15 times the size of the respective the arc units...
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 23:57 GMT > Mark wrote on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:11:36 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > agrees with that. If others want to remain in the Stone Age that's > their problem, in my opinion. It's not a matter of wanting to remain in the Stone Age, but rather not wanting to invalidate millions of maps and deeds that specify property boundaries in terms of feet and miles using an earlier standard. I presume that older definitions are used in the UK, too, when interpretting old deeds, even if modern surveying practice there uses meters and kilometers.
> It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3! And when was that, exactly?
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Default User - 05 Jun 2009 00:06 GMT > It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3! <http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-legislature-on ce-pass-a-law-saying-pi-equals-3>
Brian
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 00:43 GMT James Silverton:
> > It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature deciding that PI was 3! "Brian":
> <http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/805/did-a-state-legislature-once-pass-a -law-saying-pi-equals-3> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawler/aux/pi.html
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Hatunen - 05 Jun 2009 02:22 GMT > Mark wrote on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:11:36 -0500: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >problem, in my opinion. It's a bit like the Tennessee legislature >deciding that PI was 3! It wasn't Tennessee, it was Indiana in 1897. And the legislature didn't decide it. The House passed the bill but the state Senate had some sense and didn't.
I heartily recommend the book A History of Pi by Petr Beckmann.
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R H Draney - 05 Jun 2009 03:46 GMT Hatunen filted:
>I heartily recommend the book A History of Pi by Petr Beckmann. Some years ago, I found myself watching both Fritz Lang's "M", starring Peter Lorre, and "Z", the Costa-Gavras political thriller, in the same weekend...this got me wondering just how many major movies there are with one-letter titles....
I remain undecided whether Aronofsky's 1998 film should be included on such a list....r
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 04:54 GMT R.H. Draney:
> Some years ago, I found myself watching both Fritz Lang's "M", starring > Peter Lorre, and "Z", the Costa-Gavras political thriller, in the same > weekend...this got me wondering just how many major movies there are > with one-letter titles.... Well, M was remade under the same title in 1951. Other than that and pi, I think the only "major" movie, meaning one we're likely to have heard of, with a one-character title was $, a 1971 caper movie set in Germany and starring Warren Beatty and Goldie Hawn.
The IMDB lists a total of 105 single-character primary titles and 8 more as alternate titles (more if you count things like working titles or shortened titles used in advertising). The title "pi" does not appear as a single character on these lists because they don't support Greek characters (at least not in their raw data files).
The most popular single-character titles are 4 and X, used 8 times each; then 3, 5, K, and M, 7 times each; Q, 5 times; 9 and W, 4 times. All digits have been used at least once except 0, all letters except C. The title $ has only been used once, and likewise @ (this in 1979, so not an Internet reference; but they have no details about what it is about), but ? has been used 3 times.
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J. J. Lodder - 04 Jun 2009 12:49 GMT > >In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: > >>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > confused with millilitres (although it should only be 'ml'). > Ah! Is it 'mi'? Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world. Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood.
Jan
Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 14:13 GMT In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >> >>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world. >Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood. Signs in the UK also just give numbers, with the units understood.
Obviously there are exceptions everywhere.
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 04 Jun 2009 15:04 GMT Mike Barnes skrev:
> In alt.usage.english, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world. >> Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood. > > Signs in the UK also just give numbers, with the units understood. > > Obviously there are exceptions everywhere. Denmark went metric 100 years ago, before the advent of modern road signs. Nevertheless, the Danish speed limit signs have systematically irritated the scientifically literate driver by using an inconsistent unit, viz. km. Happily, the newest signs have now dropped the unit, so instead of e.g. "60 km" they now just say "60" with "km/h" understood -- like they do in all neighboring countries.
Signs giving distances to towns etc. on the highways are in numbers only with "km" understood". Signs on motorways giving the distance to the next exit are in meters with an explicit "m", while the distance to the subsequent exit is in numbers only with "km" understood. The first exit in Denmark on the Øresund link from Sweden is signed from the unusually long distance of 5700 m; this is because the motorway goes through a 4 km long tunnel that ends only 900 m from the exit, and there is no room for the sign in the tunnel.
Signs for maximum height, weight, width, axle weight, etc. are always given explict units (e.g. "m", "kg" or "t").
The point of this posting is, I guess, to point out that well-established metrication does not necessarily imply that all units are implicit on road signs. Here is an example of the distance to the next exit given in explicit meters. Just for kicks, I chose and example from the Netherlands instead of Denmark:
http://www.lurling.nl/Leerlingen/Rvv/borden/k/k02.gif
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 00:50 GMT Jens Christiansen:
> The first exit > in Denmark on the Øresund link from Sweden is signed from the unusually > long distance of 5700 m; this is because the motorway goes through a 4 > km long tunnel that ends only 900 m from the exit, and there is no room > for the sign in the tunnel. No room? I find that hard to believe. I've been in many tunnels that have road signs inside them, and this one is pretty new, so it's not a case of some old tunnel that isn't even wide enough for its traffic lanes in modern times.
What I could believe is that there isn't room for a sign *in the same format as used ordinarily*.
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 07 Jun 2009 22:46 GMT Mark Brader skrev:
> What I could believe is that there isn't room for a sign *in the same > format as used ordinarily*. Right you are. There are variable LED signs in the tunnel, which usually show the standard speed limit (90), but which can also show assorted warnings and lane closures. These signs are smaller than standard and built into "beams" in the tunnel ceiling.
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:14 GMT >Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world. >Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood. Oh, well, they do that in America, too, only it's miles.
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R H Draney - 04 Jun 2009 23:13 GMT Hatunen filted:
>>Life is so much simpler in the long ago metricated parts of the world. >>Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood. > >Oh, well, they do that in America, too, only it's miles. There are exceptions...I remember a series of freeway signs counting down the distance until the exit to a certain hospital...all but the last were in miles, with the units implicit, but the last said something like "500 yds"....r
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Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 23:21 GMT Jan Lodder:
>>> Highway signs just give numbers, with the unit understood. Dave Hatunen:
>> Oh, well, they do that in America, too, only it's miles. R.H. Draney:
> There are exceptions...I remember a series of freeway signs counting > down the distance until the exit to a certain hospital...all but > the last were in miles, with the units implicit, but the last said > something like "500 yds". The usual practice is that distances to the nearest whole mile are used for destinations. Turnoffs, lane endings, and anything else that's normally signed only a short distance ahead are given in miles and fractions (normally in multiples of 1/4 mile) until a distance is reached where that won't do, and then in feet. Yards are for football.
Same here before they changed it all to metric.
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J. J. Lodder - 06 Jun 2009 09:56 GMT > Hatunen filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in miles, with the units implicit, but the last said something like "500 > yds"....r Mow that you mention it, this does have a unit (m of course) in Europe. The distances to the exit at which to put up signs are not standardised though,
Jan
James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 16:30 GMT Ian wrote on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:02:13 +0100:
>. It can't be 'ml', because that's > millilitres. At school, I'm sure we used 'mls', but these days > this could easily be confused with millilitres (although it > should only be 'ml'). Ah! Is it 'mi'? All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the abbreviation for milliliter and milliliters. I forget when it was that I gave up using "cc". However, almost always "ml" was verbalized as "mil" in the singular and "mils" in the plural. Typically, one might say "Add another 10 mils of acetone". The scientifically obsolete "cc" unit was also verbalized with an "s" in the plural. More accurately, I suppose the "s" was actually a "z" sound.
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Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:25 GMT > Ian wrote on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:02:13 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >verbalized with an "s" in the plural. More accurately, I suppose the "s" >was actually a "z" sound. Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined. A long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this. The SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be used, but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 cubic cm.
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James Silverton - 04 Jun 2009 23:43 GMT Hatunen wrote on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:25:13 -0700:
>> Ian wrote on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:02:13 +0100: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> verbalized with an "s" in the plural. More accurately, I >> suppose the "s" was actually a "z" sound.
> Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic > centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined. > A long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this. The > SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be > used, but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 > cubic cm. It is true that the old cc and ml were not identical but the last time I picked up a beaker it was marked 500 ml.
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 01:00 GMT James Silverton:
>> All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the abbreviation >> for milliliter and milliliters. I forget when it was that I gave up >> using "cc". However, almost always "ml" was verbalized as "mil" in the >> singular and "mils" in the plural. ... I recall the same usage from my science classes in high school.
Dave Hatunen:
> Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic > centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined. A > long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this. True.
> The SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be used, False. It shouldn't be used *for high-precision work*.
> but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 cubic cm. True. And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm with a superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc".
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Hatunen - 05 Jun 2009 02:28 GMT >James Silverton: >>> All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the abbreviation [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >True. Which means it is just as precise as using cubic centimeters. What's in a name...?
And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm with a
>superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc". Easy for you to type. My system won't let me do that. Besides, SI is a good guide to the metric system and defines it for a number of professions, but it isn't binding on any of the rest of us.
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R H Draney - 05 Jun 2009 03:48 GMT Hatunen filted:
>And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm with a >>superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc". > >Easy for you to type. My system won't let me do that. You need a Mac...it's the key with the quotation mark on it....r
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Nick Spalding - 05 Jun 2009 08:21 GMT R H Draney wrote, in <h0a114013ik@drn.newsguy.com> on 4 Jun 2009 19:48:04 -0700:
> Hatunen filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You need a Mac...it's the key with the quotation mark on it....r Or in Windows a little free program called AllChars from <http://allchars.zwolnet.com/> which allows you to construct things like that with a few keystrokes. For example Ctrl . 3 gives ³, with Ctrl treated as a normal key, not held down.
Although it says it only works partly on Vista I have never had it fail for me.
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James Silverton - 05 Jun 2009 15:22 GMT Mark wrote on Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:00:05 -0500:
> James Silverton: >>> All the way thro my scientific career, I used "ml" as the >>> abbreviation for milliliter and milliliters. I forget when >>> it was that I gave up using "cc". However, almost always >>> "ml" was verbalized as "mil" in the singular and "mils" in >>> the plural. ...
> I recall the same usage from my science classes in high > school.
> Dave Hatunen: >> Historically, the liter was not exactly equal to 1000 cubic >> centimeters, due to the way the liter and meter were defined. >> A long time ago I won quite a few bar bets based on this.
> True.
>> The SI now considers the liter to be a unit that shouldn't be >> used,
> False. It shouldn't be used *for high-precision work*.
>> but if you must use it it is now defined to be 1000 cubic cm.
> True. And the correct symbol for cubic centimeters is cm³ (cm > with a superscript 3), not "cubic cm", let alone "cc". Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion factor was 25.40005. This means that the old US mile and the current one differ by 3.168 mm. For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m (meters). This isn't much but is appreciable.
The old British conversion factor of 25.39998 would give a difference of 1.267 mm for the old and new miles so nationalists may deplore that the US lost more than the British gained. I wonder if anyone knows what the probable error would be if surveyors were to measure out 1000 miles?
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Adam Funk - 05 Jun 2009 19:08 GMT > Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions > were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion > factor was 25.40005. This means that the old US mile and the current one > differ by 3.168 mm. For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m > (meters). This isn't much but is appreciable. This explains why my expedition to find the Fountain of Youth went wrong.
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tony cooper - 05 Jun 2009 21:00 GMT >> Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions >> were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >This explains why my expedition to find the Fountain of Youth went >wrong. You should have asked me. It's about 30 minutes north of me: http://www.planetdeland.com/deleonsprings/
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Adam Funk - 05 Jun 2009 21:42 GMT >>> Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions >>> were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You should have asked me. It's about 30 minutes north of me: > http://www.planetdeland.com/deleonsprings/ Hmm, I don't think I could've been 1000 km off, even though I found was a partly derelict C19 resort, some apartments, and a disused bowling alley.
But I see on the interwebs that Yellow Sulfur Springs is now a "Historic Inn and Healing Spa", so maybe I wasn't as wrong as I'd thought.
 Signature hmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what happens. (Bryce Utting)
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:16 GMT >Talking about high precision, until the British and American definitions >were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm exactly, the US conversion >factor was 25.40005. This means that the old US mile and the current one >differ by 3.168 mm. For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m >(meters). This isn't much but is appreciable. Which is, as I mentioned earlier, why the US has retained the old conversion for survey and geodetic work in the form of the "survey foot".
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James Silverton - 06 Jun 2009 18:20 GMT Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700:
>> Talking about high precision, until the British and American >> definitions were reconciled so that 1 inch became 25.4 mm >> exactly, the US conversion factor was 25.40005. This means >> that the old US mile and the current one differ by 3.168 mm. >> For 1000 miles, the difference is thus 3.168 m (meters). This >> isn't much but is appreciable.
> Which is, as I mentioned earlier, why the US has retained the > old conversion for survey and geodetic work in the form of the > "survey foot". That doesn't alter my opinion that the custom is antediluvian, especially since, as I said, I doubt that a surveyor coiud lay out 1000 miles withthe accuracy necessary to detect the difference.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 18:36 GMT > Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >especially since, as I said, I doubt that a surveyor coiud lay out 1000 >miles withthe accuracy necessary to detect the difference. These days I have little doubt they can do it. The difference is about 13ft if my back of the envelope calcs are correct.
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James Silverton - 06 Jun 2009 19:33 GMT Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:36:42 -0700:
>> Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> surveyor coiud lay out 1000 miles withthe accuracy necessary >> to detect the difference.
> These days I have little doubt they can do it. The difference > is about 13ft if my back of the envelope calcs are correct. I agree that the difference is about that order of magnitude. However, as someone who once spent a summer as a lowly member of a survey team, I wonder about the accuracy. The survey was done forward and back and there was a significant discrepancy over only about 20 miles.
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Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:09 GMT > Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:36:42 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >wonder about the accuracy. The survey was done forward and back and >there was a significant discrepancy over only about 20 miles. Might not count for much over 20 miles; it matters most in geodesy.
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J. J. Lodder - 06 Jun 2009 20:42 GMT > > Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700: > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > These days I have little doubt they can do it. The difference is > about 13ft if my back of the envelope calcs are correct. If it matters selected positions can be measured to cm accuracy over continental distances. Good enough to measure continental drifts of a few cm/year,
Jan
Hatunen - 06 Jun 2009 22:13 GMT >> > Hatunen wrote on Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:16:14 -0700: >> > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >over continental distances. >Good enough to measure continental drifts of a few cm/year, You're missing the point. The question is, once you measure the distance which units are you going to use to record it? Because of the voluminous long distance measurements already made before the inch was set to 2.54cm, it seemed prudent to retain the old units rather than suffer all the chaos of going back and revising the old documents.
I assume these days that international geodetics is done to metric units.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 18:45 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See > <http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file). What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator and denominator on fractional miles. Is that common in the UK? For more than just road signs?
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Nick - 04 Jun 2009 19:11 GMT >> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > denominator on fractional miles. Is that common in the UK? For more > than just road signs? I'm pretty sure it is. The typography of road signs is very carefully laid down - a specific font was developed for it I believe.
I'm pretty sure I've seen that in other fonts though - I seem to remember a typewriter with it.
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Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 20:19 GMT >Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I'm pretty sure I've seen that in other fonts though - I seem to >remember a typewriter with it. The font is called Transport, which hints at its purpose. The barless fractions are designed into it. Barlessness is a legibility thing, for occasions when drivers have little time in poor visibility.
I don't know the history of fraction-writing at large. I do know that when I was taught them, they were to be written with a horizontal bar, and not with a slash and everything on the same line, nor even with any compromise by fractional lowering of the denominator after a slash.
Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol, and what the symbology of the regular division sign of a bar with dots above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator.
 Signature Paul
Skitt - 04 Jun 2009 20:31 GMT Paul Wolff wrote, in small part:
> Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol, and > what the symbology of the regular division sign of a bar with dots > above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a > fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator. When I was young, in Latvia, and possibly also in Germany (I don't remember), the division symbol was a colon. No bar.
 Signature Skitt (AmE)
Paul Wolff - 04 Jun 2009 21:11 GMT >Paul Wolff wrote, in small part: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >When I was young, in Latvia, and possibly also in Germany (I don't >remember), the division symbol was a colon. No bar. I still use that for explicit ratios, such as 4:3 or 10:1. In the latter case a fraction would normally not show "divided by one" and would resolve to just "10".
 Signature Paul
Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 21:02 GMT > I don't know the history of fraction-writing at large. I do know > that when I was taught them, they were to be written with a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > dots above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a > fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator. Somewhat surprisingly, Cajori (_A History of Mathematical Notations_, 1928) has several pages on division and fractions, but doesn't mention forward slash other than
In 1923 the National Committee on Mathematical Requirements voiced the following opinion: "Since neither ÷ nor :, as signs of division, plays any part in business life, it seems proper to consider only the needs of algebra, and to make more use of the fractional form and (where the meaning is clear) of the symbol /, and to drop the symbol ÷ in writing algebraic expressions."
The "÷" sign is cited back to Swiss mathematician Johann Heinrich Rahn's 1659 _Teutsche Algebra_. It didn't catch on in Switzerland, but it did in England based on the works of John Pell, who had met Rahn, and it came to be known as "Pell's symbol".
Cajori notes that
The sign ÷ as a symbol for division was adopted by John Wallis and other English writers. It came to be adopted regularly in Great Britain and the United States, but not on the European Continent. The only text not in the English language, known to us as using it, is one published in Buenos Aires; where it is given also in the modified form ·/·
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Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 05:34 GMT Paul Wolff:
> > Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol, > > and what the symbology of the regular division sign of a bar with > > dots above and below is. The latter looks as if it might signify a > > fraction with cyphers for the numerator and denominator. Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Somewhat surprisingly, Cajori (_A History of Mathematical Notations_, > 1928) has several pages on division and fractions, but doesn't mention [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > fractional form and (where the meaning is clear) of the symbol /, > and to drop the symbol ÷ in writing algebraic expressions." Evan looked under division, but not under fractions.
The ordinary mode of writing fractions... is typographically objectionable as requiring three terraces of type. An effort to remove this objection was the introduction of the solidus, as in a/b... It was recommended by De Morgan in his article on "The Calculus of Functions", published in the "Encyclopedia Metropolitana" (1845). But practically that notation occurs earlier in Spanish America. In the "Gazetas de Mexico" (1784), page 1, Manuel Antonio Valdes used a curved line resembling the sign of integration...
That is, Valdes's notation for ¼ looked like something intermediate between "1/4" and 1S4", using a diagonal line with curves at each end.
While De Morgan recommended the solidus in 1843 [sic], he used a:b in his subsequent works, and as Glaisher remarks, "answers the purpose completely and it is free from the objection to ÷ viz., that the pen must be twice removed from the paper in the course of writing it."
Cajori mentions the / again in the section on multiplication. In 1893 Irving Stringham suggested in his book "Uniplanar Algebra" that since × means multiplication and / means division, ×/ should mean "multiplied or divided by" (presumably by analogy with ±).
> The "÷" sign is cited back to Swiss mathematician Johann Heinrich > Rahn's 1659 _Teutsche Algebra_. Of course, / for division got a boost in popularity in the computer era. So did * for multiplication -- another symbol that Rahn tried in this book, but which at the time did not catch on at all! Cajori mentions this one one paragraph after the ×/ sign!
And so also did ^ for exponentiation -- another symbol that De Morgan recommended in the 1845 book cites above. In Cajori's section on powers, he cites De Morgan's example a^{(a+bx)/(c+ex)}, which also uses the / for division. The {} characters are indicating grouping.
> It [÷] didn't catch on in Switzerland, > but it did in England based on the works of John Pell, who had met [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > it, is one published in Buenos Aires; where it is given also in > the modified form ·/· Before ÷ was a division sign, it was a minus sign. The minus sign we know was introduced around 1480-1500, but apparently some writers wanted something that didn't look so much like a dash, and they added one or more dots to the minus sign. The most common form of this was exactly our ÷ sign, which dates from 1525. Cajori:
With the beginning of the seventeenth century ÷ for "minus" appears more frequently, but, as far as we have been able to ascertain, only in German, Swiss, and Dutch books. A Dutch teacher, Jacob Vander Schuere, in his "Arithmetica" (Haarlem, 1600), defines + and -, but lapses into using ÷ in the solution of problems. ... The vitality of this redundant symbol of subtraction is shown by its continued existence during the eighteenth century. ... In fact, in Scandinavian countries the sign ÷ for "minus" is found occasionally in the twentieth century. For instance, in a Danish scientific publication of the year 1915, a chemist expresses a range of temperatures in the words "fra +18° C. til ÷18° C."
(That's "from" and "to".)
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 05:59 GMT > Paul Wolff: >> > Digressing, I wonder how long a slash has been a division symbol, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Evan looked under division, but not under fractions. Sigh. I did look under fractions, but I forgot (as I tend to) that his index gives you paragraph numbers rather than page numbers. The section numbers for fractions correspond to the page numbers for division. Had it not seemed reasonable, I probably would have noticed. Thanks.
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Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 04 Jun 2009 19:13 GMT >> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >denominator on fractional miles. Is that common in the UK? For more >than just road signs? My cautious answer is that it is not common outside the road sign context.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 19:25 GMT In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator and >denominator on fractional miles. That's very observant of you.
>Is that common in the UK? For more >than just road signs? It's just road signs. And it's a work of genius, IMO.
<url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)>
That URL is a test for your newsreader. If it flunks the test, try this:
http://tinyurl.com/7a34lj
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Default User - 04 Jun 2009 22:46 GMT > <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> > > That URL is a test for your newsreader. It would have worked in XanaNews without the "url: " part. As long as directly enclosed in <> the trailing parenthesis will be part of the clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to selected link feature.
Brian
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jun 2009 23:44 GMT >> <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to > selected link feature. I wonder why they implemented it to know about the angle brackets but not the "URL:", since that's part of what the RFC specifies.
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Default User - 05 Jun 2009 00:02 GMT > >> <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I wonder why they implemented it to know about the angle brackets but > not the "url: ", since that's part of what the RFC specifies. I don't know.
Brian
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Nick - 05 Jun 2009 07:31 GMT >> <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to > selected link feature. It worked beautifully in Gnus; it tends to spot URLs pretty well, but gets fooled by the brackets (parentheses). Even angle brackets don't help, but that url: did the trick. I'll remember that.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jun 2009 18:10 GMT >>> <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > gets fooled by the brackets (parentheses). Even angle brackets don't > help, but that url: did the trick. I'll remember that. The other nice thing about the standard (which Gnus follows) is that line breaks and leading whitespace on lines between the brackets are to be removed, so you can break things up to be readable. (Unfortunately, it can't handle line-split URLs that have been quoted.)
Another nifty feature of Gnus is
gnus-article-unsplit-urls (W u)
which can often stitch together unbracketted URLs that have been split across lines so that they can be clicked.
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Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 09:14 GMT In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote:
>> <url: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >clickable link. Of course, I can always select and use the Go to >selected link feature. Did XanaNews insert that space after the colon? I certainly didn't. I have no idea whether it makes any difference to the functionality.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Default User - 05 Jun 2009 17:24 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Default User wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > It would have worked in XanaNews without the "url: " part.
> Did XanaNews insert that space after the colon? I certainly didn't. I > have no idea whether it makes any difference to the functionality. It must have. Interesting. I might flag that on their bug site, although to be fair I run an older version.
Brian
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Nick Spalding - 05 Jun 2009 08:36 GMT Mike Barnes wrote, in <fi3Rqs9XGBKKFwS$@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid> on Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:25:27 +0100:
> <url:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)> > > That URL is a test for your newsreader. If it flunks the test, try this: Agent passes the test. It invokes IE7 as intended.
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Amethyst Deceiver - 05 Jun 2009 15:11 GMT > It's just road signs. And it's a work of genius, IMO. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/7a34lj Gravity lost the URL after the ( which is, I suspect, a Fail.
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James Hogg - 04 Jun 2009 19:38 GMT Quoth Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com>, and I quote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >>>In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >denominator on fractional miles. Is that common in the UK? For more >than just road signs? I don't think so. I remember seeing that way of writing 1/2 the first time I was ever on a motorway and thinking what a neat way it was to eliminate the slash. It was different from the old road signs:
http://www.freefoto.com/images/41/01/41_01_9---Old-Road-Traffic-Signs_web.jpg
 Signature James
Mark Brader - 05 Jun 2009 01:05 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum:
> What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator and > denominator on fractional miles. Is that common in the UK? For more > than just road signs? Some screen fonts I've used make single-character fractions (¼, ½, ¾) that way, although not the one on the terminal I'm using now. When you don't have many pixels to work with, it can be a good idea. I can't remember seeing it done in printed matter anywhere.
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Frank ess - 05 Jun 2009 05:04 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum: >> What struck me there was the lack of a slash between the numerator [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > When you don't have many pixels to work with, it can be a good idea. > I can't remember seeing it done in printed matter anywhere. I can't remember why I looked for and found a "transport" and a "transport heavy" font, apparently UK usage, and there are special characters that result in slashless fractions, in TruType Word application.
Quote:
Special Characters ================== In Transport Heavy, all the alphanumeric characters are as normal, but there are also a few special characters available.
# = Space between route letter (A,B or M) and number, e.g. A 702 ^ = "Get in lane" arrow < = Arrow right
> = Arrow left / = / \ = higher ! = Feet " = Inches Alt + 0188 = 1/4 Alt + 0189 = 1/2 Alt + 0190 = 3/4
Footnote ======== This font was made by Nathaniel Porter from images in the Department for Transport Proposed Revision of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions documentation which can be found here: http://www.roads.dft.gov.uk/consult/traffic/regulations/10.htm
This font can be found online at http://www.allan-online.co.uk " It may not be used for commerical purposes.
End Quote.
 Signature Frank ess
bulland@gmail.com - 04 Jun 2009 23:36 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Only for distance of less than one mile, is my impression. See > <http://tinyurl.com/ogngdg> (PDF file). I still maintain that signs for services use the "m": see http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/19496/wm/pd1662970.jpg, for example.
Also http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/services/pease/image5.jpg, though that's a bit different as it involves a mixed number (1 1/2).
Mike Barnes - 05 Jun 2009 09:15 GMT In alt.usage.english, wrote:
>> In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Also http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/services/pease/image5.jpg, >though that's a bit different as it involves a mixed number (1 1/2). I wonder if signs for service areas, being commercial enterprises, are outside the system.
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Robert Bannister - 05 Jun 2009 01:40 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Ian Jackson wrote: >> In the UK, ALL our distance signs appear to be - at first sight - [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > for miles is the correct symbol for miles. By definition. The UK highway > sign style might be non-standard but it's not "wrong" AFAIK. But it could be very confusing, especially as distances less than a mile would more naturally be taken to be metres... ...Hmm, I've just looked at your link and changed my mind, since I don't believe anybody would think a signpost with "1/2 m" could mean "half a metre".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Hatunen - 03 Jun 2009 21:47 GMT >Hatunen skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >http://www.northeastroads.com/maine050/i-095_nb_exit_102_02.jpg Those are all dual-system signs. The signs on I-19 are metric only.
I see there's a Wikepedia article about I-19: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_19
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Garrett Wollman - 03 Jun 2009 19:45 GMT >We have a metric Interstate highway south of Tucson to the >Mexican border. Distance signs are metric but the speed limit >signs say, e.g., 65mph. The signs can's say it in kph for the >simple reason that the law does not. > >Sadly, the state wants to take away the metrification It's more complicated than that, on both counts.
(a) The specifications for signage on Federal-Aid Highways are given in the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, which is incorporated by reference into the regulations of the Federal Highway Administration. States are, however, permitted to adopt their own local signing manuals, so long as they are consistent with the standards set forth in the MUTCD. The Federal MUTCD includes complete specifications for both systems of units, and a companion volume, Standard Highway Signs, includes patterns in both systems for all types of signs. They both include signs for speed limits in km/h (note correct unit symbol). I can't speak for ADOT policy or state law with respect to posting metric speed limits (although I do know that Arizona uses the "85th percentile rule" as recommended in the MUTCD).
(b) About ten years ago, some states started putting projects out to bid which were designed using metric units (but still signed in U.S. Customary units), once the then-new MUTCD edition came out which gave specific design standards for metric projects. The highway contractors raised a holy ruckus in Congress at the thought that they might have to learn a new system of units, and as a result, the next Federal highway bill (TEA-21[1] if I remember correctly) contained a rider that prohibited the use of Federal money on metric highway designs or signage. Sigh.
-GAWollman
[1] All highway bills in recent years have had the letters "TEA" backronymed into them somehow, taking as a model the Intermodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act of 1991 (ISTEA), pronounced "ice tea". The Wikipedia article notes "It was preceded by the Surface Transportation and Uniform Relocation Assistance Act of 1987 and followed by the Transportation Equity Act for the 21st Century (TEA-21) and most recently in 2005, the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU)." (So you can see the somewhat Orwellian naming scheme used by Congress extends well beyond the U.S.A.P.A.T.R.I.O.T.A.C.T.)
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Hatunen - 03 Jun 2009 22:10 GMT >>We have a metric Interstate highway south of Tucson to the >>Mexican border. Distance signs are metric but the speed limit [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >that Arizona uses the "85th percentile rule" as recommended in the >MUTCD). It's also more complicated than that. The states are free to do as they like with their highways (even the Interstates are, in fact, state highways). The federal government has rules regarding all sorts of minutiae but the state are no legally bound to these rules if they are wiling to forego federal monetary aid. States are beginning to assert their sovereignty here in some case, although I certainly wouldn't want them to go back to the bewildering varieties of signage and striping they used when I was first driving (OK, We're in New York state. What do the solid and dashed white lines in the middle of the road mean here?)
>(b) About ten years ago, some states started putting projects out to >bid which were designed using metric units (but still signed in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >rider that prohibited the use of Federal money on metric highway >designs or signage. Sigh. So use state money. The point for Arizona is that the signs were adopted back when thr feds were pushing to go metric. Now it's going to cost money to remove them, and a lot of us are saying, why bother? Especially since it's a main coorridor for Mexicans entering the USA.
I was working for the Palo Alto, CA, Public Works Engineering Department 15-20 years ago. We went had a furious push to adopt our standards and specifications to California's standards and specifications, which were now done in "hard" metric [1] at teh insistence of the feds. We had a team rewriting our standards. I was going to be required and we'd better be ready. Then, it all just sort of went away, including the state's standards and specifications.
[1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm.
"Hard" metrification means adopting metric standards as they might be used in the rest of teh world. The sidewalk would now be, perhaps, 150cm wide. The problem is that you need to have suppliers also using hard metrics, e.g., no more 8-inch steel beams.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Garrett Wollman - 03 Jun 2009 22:18 GMT >It's also more complicated than that. The states are free to do >as they like with their highways (even the Interstates are, in >fact, state highways). The federal government has rules regarding >all sorts of minutiae but the state are no legally bound to these >rules if they are wiling to forego federal monetary aid. I believe the phrase you're not thinking of here is "Commerce Clause".
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 00:06 GMT >>It's also more complicated than that. The states are free to do >>as they like with their highways (even the Interstates are, in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I believe the phrase you're not thinking of here is "Commerce Clause". If the commerce clause were invoked it would make the federal rules mandatory and the states would not be able to opt out even at the cost of losing federal highway money. There could be an argument for this, but it is not apt at the present save for certain rules regarding the likes of interstate trucking.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
R H Draney - 04 Jun 2009 00:46 GMT Hatunen filted:
>"Hard" metrification means adopting metric standards as they >might be used in the rest of teh world. The sidewalk would now >be, perhaps, 150cm wide. The problem is that you need to have >suppliers also using hard metrics, e.g., no more 8-inch steel >beams. I'd say that marks a complete 3.14 radian change in policy....r
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Jens Brix Christiansen - 04 Jun 2009 08:35 GMT Hatunen skrev:
> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions > and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > suppliers also using hard metrics, e.g., no more 8-inch steel > beams. Sometimes you can get away with interpreting both standards as hard. The standard railroad gauge is 1435 mm in "hard" metric units and 4'8½" in "hard" traditional units. The difference is .1 mm, which fortunately is well within the overall tolerance for railroad gauges.
 Signature Jens Brix Christiansen
Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 11:29 GMT Jens Christiansen:
> Sometimes you can get away with interpreting both standards as hard. The > standard railroad gauge is 1435 mm in "hard" metric units and 4'8½" in > "hard" traditional units. The difference is .1 mm, which fortunately is > well within the overall tolerance for railroad gauges. True. In fact, on some railways they actually use 4' 8 3/8" or 1432 mm. The wheel flanges are actually 4'8¼" apart, and the closer-set rails give better riding behavior as long as the track is maintained to a higher precision than would be necessary with 4'8½" gauge track.
 Signature Mark Brader "They are taking to the new methods Toronto like a duck takes to stock trading." msb@vex.net --Mark Leeper
Mark Brader - 04 Jun 2009 11:25 GMT Dave Hatunen:
> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions > and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk > remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm. Want to try that again?
 Signature Mark Brader "Thus the metric system did not really catch on Toronto in the States, unless you count the increasing msb@vex.net popularity of the 9 mm bullet." -- Dave Barry
John Kane - 04 Jun 2009 14:42 GMT > Dave Hatunen: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Want to try that again? Why? I LIKE wide sidewalks.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Skitt - 04 Jun 2009 18:36 GMT > Dave Hatunen:
>> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions >> and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk >> remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm. > > Want to try that again? Mm ...
 Signature Skitt (AmE)
Hatunen - 04 Jun 2009 19:04 GMT >Dave Hatunen: >> [1] "Soft" metrification means simply taking your old dimensions >> and converting them into metci units. A five foot wide sidewalk >> remains five feet wide, but now we're calling it 1524 cm.
>Want to try that again? OK. "1524mm".
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be - 03 Jun 2009 22:24 GMT > In article <j9dd259a62fg1agrqc83ks7t3c3lhbv...@4ax.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > (TEA-21) and most recently in 2005, the Safe, Accountable, Flexible, > Efficient Transportation Equity Act: A Legacy for Users (SAFETEA-LU)." Would that be sung to the tune of 'Skip to My Safetea-Lu' then? Yikes what ever happened to boring names of legislation?!
Percival P. Cassidy - 03 Jun 2009 19:52 GMT >> Similarly, I knew someone who took the Queensland driving licence test >> just after metric conversion. Now all the distances (e.g., how close to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the annoyance and objections of many of us southern Arizonans. As > far as I know it's the only metrically signed highway in the USA. I think it's Glen Cove Rd. on Long Island, NY that has at one intersection a sign giving the distance to Glen Cove in Kilometers.
Perce
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 03 Jun 2009 17:49 GMT > From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, > anyway? Or "an inch or two", said to have been converted to "2.54 or 5.08 cm" in a document in the early days of UK metrication.
 Signature athel
Ian Jackson - 03 Jun 2009 20:39 GMT >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> " "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Or "an inch or two", said to have been converted to "2.54 or 5.08 cm" >in a document in the early days of UK metrication. I've seen "approximately one inch from the wall (25.4mm)".
 Signature Ian
Jonathan Morton - 03 Jun 2009 21:32 GMT >>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >>> " "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult weather [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I've seen "approximately one inch from the wall (25.4mm)". Then, of course, there's the "so-and-so breezed into town looking like a million dollars (£584,467)" - allegedly Daily Telegraphese from a previous generation.
Regards
Jonathan
Nick - 04 Jun 2009 07:47 GMT >>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >>> " "We are in a race against the clock in extremely difficult [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I've seen "approximately one inch from the wall (25.4mm)". British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of places a few years ago. It's a bit different from 4mph (implying a precision of less than a boat length per hour).
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Mike Barnes - 04 Jun 2009 09:53 GMT In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote:
>British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of >places a few years ago. It's a bit different from 4mph (implying a >precision of less than a boat length per hour). 6430 mph? Seems overly generous. Presumably if they meant 6.43 km/h that's what they'd have written.
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Robert Bannister - 05 Jun 2009 02:01 GMT > In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote: >> British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 6430 mph? Seems overly generous. Presumably if they meant 6.43 km/h > that's what they'd have written. I suppose "kph" doesn't conform to IS, but that's what I usually see.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Nick Spalding - 14 Jun 2009 12:38 GMT Robert Bannister wrote, in <78r92mF1ngkf1U1@mid.individual.net> on Fri, 05 Jun 2009 09:01:10 +0800:
> > In alt.usage.english, Nick wrote: > >> British waterways put up "speed limit 6.43 kmph" signs in a couple of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I suppose "kph" doesn't conform to IS, but that's what I usually see. The RoI changed its speed limits to metric a couple of years ago, the signs have km/h on them. The distances were all changed to metric many years ago.
<http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://viaterra.net/photos/ireland/near-cork/ only-in-ireland.jpg&imgrefurl=http://viaterra.net/photopages/ireland/Ireland2004 -nearcork.htm&usg=__dLq3YYwC2g_cKetTF6rDcPpDtSE=&h=500&w=450&sz=99&hl=en&start=5 &tbnid=giuqzmtdqL3qBM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=117&prev=/images%3Fq%3Direland%2B%2522speed %2Blimit%2522%2Bsign%26as_st%3Dy%26hl%3Den%26newwindow%3D1> <http://tinyurl.com/nf72s7>
 Signature Nick Spalding BrE/IrE
Bob Martin - 04 Jun 2009 07:19 GMT >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >-- >athel UK metrication? I'll look forward to that.
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 04 Jun 2009 09:26 GMT >>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > UK metrication? I'll look forward to that. Well yes. I wondered whether to refer to the slowness of the process in my earlier post. (Faster than in the USA, though.)
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James Hogg - 04 Jun 2009 11:50 GMT Quoth Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel_cb@yahoo.co.uk>, and I quote:
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Or "an inch or two", said to have been converted to "2.54 or 5.08 cm" >in a document in the early days of UK metrication. Give them 2.54 cm and they'll take 1.609 km.
 Signature James
stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be - 03 Jun 2009 22:21 GMT > From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, > anyway? What happened to the missing F, anyway?
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 04 Jun 2009 00:08 GMT >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >What happened to the missing F, anyway? There was an unfortunate accident. Instead of being decimalised it was decimated.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Rambler III - 14 Jun 2009 01:50 GMT > From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, > anyway? 7000 meters is 22,965.833 feet.
If you're using a tape measure, it's 22,965 feet, 9.996 inches.
Skitt - 14 Jun 2009 02:06 GMT >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > If you're using a tape measure, it's 22,965 feet, 9.996 inches. I get 22,965.879265 feet, or 22,965 feet and 10.55118 inches.
Call it 23,000 feet, though.
 Signature Skitt (AmE)
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 14 Jun 2009 16:43 GMT >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >If you're using a tape measure, it's 22,965 feet, 9.996 inches. That's one heck of a tape measure!
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Hatunen - 15 Jun 2009 00:03 GMT >> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >7000 meters is 22,965.833 feet. If you're using survey feet. If you're using the definition of a foot as exactly .3048 meters, 7000 meters is 22,965.879 feet.
 Signature ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 14 Jun 2009 07:52 GMT > From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, > anyway? There was a striking example of this in a television programme about global warming I was watching a few minutes ago. The commentary (in French) referred to a volcanic eruption 80000 years ago that had sent ash and dust into the atmosphere to a height of 34 km. But no one was around at the time with balloons to measure the height, so how did they get it to within 1 km? Then I thought that maybe it was a trnslation from English, but 34 km doen't seem to correspond to a round number of feet or miles. Furlongs? Rods, poles or perches?
 Signature athel
R H Draney - 14 Jun 2009 08:06 GMT Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >from English, but 34 km doen't seem to correspond to a round number of >feet or miles. Furlongs? Rods, poles or perches? Maybe by inference, because they knew it reached the ozone layer, which Wikipedia says is at about that height?...r
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Mark Brader - 14 Jun 2009 12:16 GMT > There was a striking example of this in a television programme about > global warming I was watching a few minutes ago. The commentary (in > French) referred to a volcanic eruption 80000 years ago that had sent > ash and dust into the atmosphere to a height of 34 km. ... I thought > that maybe it was a trnslation from English, but 34 km doen't seem > to correspond to a round number of feet or miles. Well, it's 110,000 feet rounded to the nearest whole kilometer, but 110,000 also seems too precise to be the original number. I wonder about a round-trip translation. Maybe the original number was 35 km, translated to 21.75 miles, truncated to 21 miles instead of rounding to 22, and then back to metric.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "Don't let it drive you crazy... msb@vex.net | Leave the driving to us!" --Wayne & Shuster
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 14 Jun 2009 18:41 GMT > From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > About 23,000 feet maybe? What happened to the missing decimals, > anyway? I should have remembered this earlier, before everyone got tired of this thread, but this is acartoon that I liked a lot when I first saw it:
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem109/
The page doesn't acknowledge the artist. I think it was B. Kliban.
 Signature athel
R H Draney - 15 Jun 2009 00:05 GMT Athel Cornish-Bowden filted:
>> From an AP wire about the downed Air France plane: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >The page doesn't acknowledge the artist. I think it was B. Kliban. Unless you're talking about the "Joe Camel" thing, I don't see the cartoon you're talking about...and that's not Kliban....r
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James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 06:51 GMT Quoth R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net>, and I quote:
>Athel Cornish-Bowden filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Unless you're talking about the "Joe Camel" thing, I don't see the cartoon >you're talking about...and that's not Kliban....r No, Kliban's cartoons look like this:
http://www.yahoodrummers.com/davey/kliban/images/tf_stickbook.jpg http://www.norreg.dk/tok/logicman2.gif http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2925429669_1c2fd971dc.jpg?v=0 http://www.blackjelly.com/Mag/gallery/kliban3.GIF
 Signature James
Athel Cornish-Bowden - 15 Jun 2009 07:56 GMT > Athel Cornish-Bowden filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Unless you're talking about the "Joe Camel" thing, I don't see the cartoon > you're talking about...and that's not Kliban....r I left the end off the URL. Try
http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem109/Metric.html
If that doesn't work try googling images for "exchanging feet for meters" (without quotes), which is how I found it yesterday. It should come up at about No. 8. If you include "kliban" in the search it won't find it.
 Signature athel
James Hogg - 15 Jun 2009 08:03 GMT Quoth Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>, and I quote:
>> Athel Cornish-Bowden filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/chem/faculty/leontis/chem109/Metric.html Now that *is* Kliban.
 Signature James
R H Draney - 15 Jun 2009 09:44 GMT James Hogg filted:
>Quoth Athel Cornish-Bowden <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr>, and I >quote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Now that *is* Kliban. If I'd had the title I would have known which cartoon you were describing even without the full URL, and yes, it certainly is Kliban....
I often find myself feeling like Salvatore Quanucci....r
 Signature A pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this?
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