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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009British rhoticism
Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the death of Michael Jackson saying something about "the plans that they will drawr up for his funeral" I've heard "withdrawral" plenty of times before, but not "drawr" on its own. How common is this? How do such people say "drawers"?  SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk "Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote : > Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the death of > Michael Jackson saying something about "the plans that they will drawr up [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've heard "withdrawral" plenty of times before, but not "drawr" on its > own. Common. It's no so much on its own, Steve; more a typical intrusion into "drawup". Philip Eden >"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Common. It's no so much on its own, Steve; more a typical intrusion >into "drawup". If that were the case I would have expected him to say "draw rup" but I heard him say, quite distinctly, "drawr up". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:33:25 +0100, "Philip Eden" > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > If that were the case I would have expected him to say "draw rup" but I heard > him say, quite distinctly, "drawr up". To my BrE ears that seems pretty difficult to say. I can imagine a totally non-rhotic "draw [very short pause] up"", or a rhotic "draw rup" - probably spoken by a westcountryman or East Anglian - but "drawr [very short pause] up"? Nope. Mike M >> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:33:25 +0100, "Philip Eden" >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >rhotic "draw rup" - probably spoken by a westcountryman or East >Anglian - but "drawr [very short pause] up"? Nope. Well, I didn't imagine it, I heard it. I suppose if I exaggerated my (non-rhotic) pronunciation it might come out something like "draw wup". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:33:25 +0100, "Philip Eden" >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > I suppose if I exaggerated my (non-rhotic) pronunciation it might > come out something like "draw wup". When crime is the topic, be alert for references to Laura Norder. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >When crime is the topic, be alert for references to Laura Norder. As opposed to law wind order? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:33:25 +0100, "Philip Eden" >>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >When crime is the topic, be alert for references to Laura Norder. As I've said before, a Laura Nodder used to live just down the road from me. It wasn't that her parents had a wicked/strange sense of humour. She just was just 'unfortunate' enough to marry a Mr Nodder. SignatureIan > [ ... ] >> When crime is the topic, be alert for references to Laura Norder. > > As I've said before, a Laura Nodder used to live just down the road > from me. It wasn't that her parents had a wicked/strange sense of > humour. She just was just 'unfortunate' enough to marry a Mr Nodder. I knew a Dawn Bourne once, who arrived at that unfortunate combination in the same way. Of course, it wouldn't be unfortunate among rhotic people. There was once a well known Scottish editor who complained about a rhyme dawn - born in a poem, and asked "do you say 'dorn'?", to which the only reasonable answer for a non-rhotic English person would be "no, but I do say 'bawn'". Another problem for our transatlantic colleages would be even without the question of rhoticism "born" and "dawn" wouldn't rhyme, but they undoubtedly do in my idiolect. Signatureathel >>"Steve Hayes" <hayesmstw@hotmail.com> wrote : >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> I've heard "withdrawral" plenty of times before, but not "drawr" >>> on its own. You didn't hear "drawr" on its own. You heard it in a sentence in which it was followed by a vowel. >>Common. It's no so much on its own, Steve; more a typical intrusion >>into "drawup". > > If that were the case I would have expected him to say "draw rup" > but I heard him say, quite distinctly, "drawr up". No, the notion is that for such speakers, the word is phonemically /drOr/, and that they have a rule that deletes the /r/ unless it's followed by a vowel. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |...as a mobile phone is analogous 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to a Q-Tip -- yeah, it's something Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you stick in your ear, but there |all resemblance ends. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Ross Howard (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the death > of Michael Jackson saying something about "the plans that they will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > How do such people say "drawers"? My brother-in-law was raised on Long Island in the US (New York state), and still says "rawr eggs". I think it is the vowel following the "w" that kind of forces the "r" into the sound, or else he swallows the "r" at the end of the word if a consonant comes along. (I know you asked about UK.) > > Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the death > > of Michael Jackson saying something about "the plans that they will [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > at the end of the word if a consonant comes along. (I know you asked > about UK.) It sounds to me like an eastern Massachusetts or Boston accent. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> > Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the >> > death [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > It sounds to me like an eastern Massachusetts or Boston accent. Oh, the Kennedys, etc? Maybe it originated in Long Island Sound and spread N. and S. > Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the death of > Michael Jackson saying something about "the plans that they will drawr up for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > How common is this? Very. It's a common example of "intrusive r" in a non-rhotic accent. See also Laura Norder. > How do such people say "drawers"? Without pronouncing the r, as is the way in non-rhotic English. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> How do such people say "drawers"? > > Without pronouncing the r, as is the way in non-rhotic English. I thought drawers were unmentionables. Fran >> Just heard a British TV reporter on Sky News talking about the death of >> Michael Jackson saying something about "the plans that they will drawr up for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Very. It's a common example of "intrusive r" in a non-rhotic accent. See > also Laura Norder. Yes. I think that title "British rhoticism" was misleading, as this is not to my mind an example of rhoticism but of, as you correctly put it, of "intrusive r". I doubt if there is any correlation between British speakers with rhotic accents and speakers who use intrusive r. For the original question, I'd expect "drawr up" from the same people as I hear saying "drawring" or "withdrawral". >> How do such people say "drawers"? > > Without pronouncing the r, as is the way in non-rhotic English. Again yes. As I say it "drawers" is a single syllable with no hint of an r, and not much hint of a w -- it almost rhymes with "gauze". Signatureathel Steve Hayes: >>> How do such people say "drawers"? Linz Endell: >> Without pronouncing the r, as is the way in non-rhotic English. Athel Cornish-Bowden: > Again yes. As I say it "drawers" is a single syllable with no hint of > an r, and not much hint of a w -- it almost rhymes with "gauze". You *are* both talking only about the *second* R, R'nt you? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto (require 'msb) msb@vex.net -- Lars Lindberg [...]> > For the original question, I'd expect "drawr up" from the same people > as I hear saying "drawring" or "withdrawral". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Again yes. As I say it "drawers" is a single syllable with no hint of > an r, and not much hint of a w -- it almost rhymes with "gauze". And it's quite often written "draw". Which is far from unreasonable, I suppose, when you think of telescopes...but I find OED says it's US in furniture, and doesn't seem to know about the telescope tube. I think I do give it a sort of one-and-a-half syllable treatment. Maybe it depends on context. But, as usual, it's easy to be wrong about one's own speech. OED mentions only the two-syll version. SignatureMike. > I think I do give it a sort of one-and-a-half syllable treatment. Maybe it > depends on context. But, as usual, it's easy to be wrong about one's own > speech. OED mentions only the two-syll version. I pronounce it the way Mike describes - when it's something in a chest of drawers. But - illogically - if it's someone who writes a cheque, I pronounce the word with two syllables. Regards Jonathan On 27 June, 21:39, "Jonathan Morton" <jonathan.mortonbutignorethisp...@btinternet.com> wrote: > "MikeLyle" <mike_lyle...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > drawers. But - illogically - if it's someone who writes a cheque, I > pronounce the word with two syllables. Ah, now you mention it, I do that, too. Perhaps it's not illogical, but a sort of strangulated rationality: the suffix "-er" and the suffix "-er" are clearly different in meaning, so it wouldn't be strange if the inner man felt they must be pronounced differently. -- MIke. Amethyst Deceiver wrote... > hayesmstw@hotmail.com says... >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Very. It's a common example of "intrusive r" in a non-rhotic > accent. I'll warrant that a good number of the old fogies and whatever the feminine counterpart of that is in here have been berated by sundry choral society directors for singing "Fo runto uz a child is born". That's bad enough, but understandable. "Gloria rineggshellsis" is downright painful to listen to, and I heard one of the newer soprano stars of stage and screen sing just that not very long ago. I wish I could remember who and when. SignatureNoel > Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >> hayesmstw@hotmail.com says... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > feminine counterpart of that is in here have been berated by sundry > choral society directors for singing "Fo runto uz a child is born". Not to mention "Good King Wence'las last looked out". It took me a good many years to realize that that wasn't what the words said. > That's bad enough, but understandable. "Gloria rineggshellsis" is > downright painful to listen to, and I heard one of the newer soprano > stars of stage and screen sing just that not very long ago. I wish I > could remember who and when. Signatureathel >I'll warrant that a good number of the old fogies and whatever the >feminine counterpart of that is in here have been berated by sundry >choral society directors for singing "Fo runto uz a child is born". I thought that was "Fo runto wuss a child is born". At least in the first error the "r" is actually there, and we're just being fussy about making the words clear. In the same work, some like a glottal stop in "for ever", whereas others are quite happy to treat it as "forever" (which is after all what most people would do in speech). Katy > Amethyst Deceiver wrote... > > hayesm...@hotmail.com says... [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Very. It's a common example of "intrusive r" in a non-rhotic > > accent. < "Gloria rineggshellsis" is > downright painful to listen to, and I heard one of the newer soprano > stars of stage and screen sing just that not very long ago. I wish I > could remember who and when. Presumably musicians these days don't have to be able to read the words? John Kane Kingston ON Canada |
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