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Discussion Groups / English Usage / June 2009Counting syllables in 'fire' and other words
Hi all, I've picked up a new hobby-writing haiku. However, since English is not my mother tongue, sometimes I have problems counting syllables in a word. So here are my questions: a) How many syllables in 'fire'? I pronounce it something along the lines of /fa/ /y/ /er/ when it's a noun, which would suggest it's a 2- syllables word, but I tend to say it in a different, more contracted way in 'fire alarm' or when it's a verb, such as 'fire your weapons', almost as if it had a single syllable. Which one is correct? b) Would you say that in acronyms that need to be spelled out (such as PC, SDSC, NSF) -- as opposed to those like NATO, ASIMO, etc -- the letter and syllable count is the same? thanks -- "Yes, we have a dress code. You have to dress." --Scott McNealy, co- founder of Sun Microsystems ~> http://www.wysinnwyg.com/ (a) In my opinion, in standard English pronunciation, "fire" has one syllable. Whether a verb or a noun. > I pronounce it something along the lines of /fa/ /y/ /er/ when it's a noun Because phonemes like /r/ have such a high sonority, they easily take on the role of vowels in syllables (depending on the formation of the word). If you listen very carefully to the word "fire", you will notice that there is no real separate vowel sound assigned to the second syllable. However regional variations often add syllables to a word. I guess you are American? (b) Strictly speaking, "NATO" is an acronym, but PC is an initialism. It is alleged that in 1943, Bell Laboratories coined the term acronym as the name for a word (such as SONAR) created from the first letters of each word in a series of words (such as SOund Navigation And Ranging). Some dictionaries, however, do not recognise that distinction. > (a) In my opinion, in standard English pronunciation, "fire" has one > syllable. Whether a verb or a noun. To me, the difference in sound between 'catch on fire' (open sound) and 'fire your weapons' (closed sound) is quite noticeable, but now that I think of it, part of that could be just attributed to their different position within the phrase. E.g. the difference between 'he lit the fire' and 'he chose to fire' is a little less noticeable, although it still sounds a bit different in my head. > word). If you listen very carefully to the word "fire", you will > notice that there is no real separate vowel sound assigned to the > second syllable. However regional variations often add syllables to a > word. I guess you are American? No, I'm actually Italian (and living in Italy). -- "Yes, we have a dress code. You have to dress." --Scott McNealy, co- founder of Sun Microsystems ~> http://www.wysinnwyg.com/ > To me, the difference in sound between 'catch on fire' (open sound) > and 'fire your weapons' (closed sound) is quite noticeable. Well, in Standard English the word is pronounced the same in each case. >> To me, the difference in sound between 'catch on fire' (open sound) >> and 'fire your weapons' (closed sound) is quite noticeable. > > Well, in Standard English the word is pronounced the same in each > case. Spoken slowly and carefully that may be true, but I imagine circumstances when "Fire your weapons" could sound more like "Fie ya weapons".  SignatureRob Bannister > > (a) In my opinion, in standard English pronunciation, "fire" has one > > syllable. Whether a verb or a noun. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > lit the fire' and 'he chose to fire' is a little less noticeable, > although it still sounds a bit different in my head. It is fairly easy to give 'fire' a two syllable pronunication. I'd normally pronounce fire with one syllable in the examples that you gave but, in a shouted command FIRE! it could have one or two syllables depending on exactly what the shouter intended. I am not sure, but I think the choise has more to do with the intend of the speaker than the position in the phrase. Of course Americans from the Deep South may be able to get 3 or 4 syllables out of it. John Kane Kingston ON Canada John Kane Kingston > > word). If you listen very carefully to the word "fire", you will > > notice that there is no real separate vowel sound assigned to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > founder of Sun Microsystems > ~>http://www.wysinnwyg.com/ John Kane wrote, in part: > It is fairly easy to give 'fire' a two syllable pronunication. [...] I tend to use two syllables (or at least one-and-a-half, if that's possible). > Of course Americans from the Deep South may be able to get 3 or 4 > syllables out of it. Huh. Try one: far. SignatureMaria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. Maria wrote on Sat, 27 Jun 2009 13:49:19 -0400: >> It is fairly easy to give 'fire' a two syllable >> pronunication. > [...] > I tend to use two syllables (or at least one-and-a-half, if > that's possible). >> Of course Americans from the Deep South may be able to get 3 or 4 >> syllables out of it. > Huh. Try one: far. Www could be 6: dubya dubya dubya, but that's associated with a gentleman of unregretted memory. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Www could be 6: dubya dubya dubya, but that's associated with a > gentleman of unregretted memory. What is "unregretted memory"? Does it mean "I don't regret remembering him" or something else"? Maria Conlon, who would have voted for Bush 43 again had he been legally able (and nominated) to run for a third term. (That's what many AUEers would suspect about my politics, and correctly so.) >> Www could be 6: dubya dubya dubya, but that's associated with a >> gentleman of unregretted memory. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > legally able (and nominated) to run for a third term. (That's what > many AUEers would suspect about my politics, and correctly so.) Well, see how you are? ;) SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>> Www could be 6: dubya dubya dubya, but that's associated with a >>> gentleman of unregretted memory. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Well, see how you are? ;) Yes, I know how I am: not smart (or amiable) enough to hide what I am when I probably should. Think I'll ever change? > > Www could be 6: dubya dubya dubya, but that's associated with a > > gentleman of unregretted memory. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Maria Conlon, who would have voted for Bush 43 again had he been legally > able ( What? Forty-three of them? That's an impressive dynasty. John Kane Kingston ON Canada P.S. Which one was 43 ? John Kane wrote in reply to my mention of "Bush 43": > What? Forty-three of them? That's an impressive dynasty. > P.S. Which one was 43 ? George Walker Bush, who succeeded Bill Clinton, our country's 42nd President, and preceded Barack Obama, our country's 44th President. George Herbert Walker Bush ("Bush 41") was 43's father. George Washington was #1 on the US President list; Abraham Lincoln was #16. I could go on, but won't. Non-Americans (and others, including my fellow citizens), may not be interested in the list. Nonethess, here's one place to find it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States Another father-son pair of U.S. Presidents: John Adams (#2) and John Quincy Adams (#6). (And yes, John, I know what you meant -- how many George Bushes. I have no idea.) SignatureMaria Conlon Maria Conlon filted: >John Kane wrote in reply to my mention of "Bush 43": >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >President, and preceded Barack Obama, our country's 44th President. >George Herbert Walker Bush ("Bush 41") was 43's father. Note that this reckoning considers Stephen Grover Cleveland both the 22nd and 24th President, despite his being the same human being (modulo a rubber prosthetic palate) in both terms....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Maria Conlon filted: >>John Kane wrote in reply to my mention of "Bush 43": [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > rubber > prosthetic palate) in both terms....r Since his terms were not consecutive, it makes perfect sense to me. (Then again, a lot of things make perfect sense to me that don't do the same for other folks.) Maria Conlon Seen on a T-shirt in Detroit's Greektown area: "At what age will I be old enought to know better?" Maria Conlon filted: >John Kane wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Huh. Try one: far. Pronounced like "a long, long way to run"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? R H Draney wrote... > Maria Conlon filted: >> John Kane wrote, in part: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> Huh. Try one: far. > Pronounced like "a long, long way to run"....r There is some sort of telepathic force at work tonight. I have just come in from nursing a nightcap beneath the stars, where I find r's post waiting to be read. I had been musing over the 'puns in languages other than English and French' thread, when some Bach wafted across from an open window somewhere. This set me thinking about musical 'puns', for want of a better term, like Liszt's variations on B-A-C-H (which presumes that you call the white note below C H and the black one below that B, Germanic style). The only other one I could think of is the jingle introducing announcements on the Danish railways. At least some of those countries using the B flat > B; B > H convention also have a useful shorthand for the names of the individual notes, which involves suffixing '-is' to sharpened ones and '-es' to flattened ones. Fis is thus F sharp , Ges is G flat. It's very handy, and it makes it possible to distil the DSB acronym for Danske Statsbaner[1] into the three notes D, Es, B (dotted crotchet-quaver-minim). It was a very bright spark who dreamt that one up, although it's also quite possible the idea was nicked from somewhere else. It would work for the German railways (DB) as well, but I've no idea whether it's used there or has been. So here are three examples - Doh, a deer..., B A C H and D Es B. Any more? [1] and the usage justification: we have dozens of words like road, way, track, street... for bits of ground to move on, but I can't think of one cognate with g. "bahn", Scandinavian "bane|bana". Are there any? SignatureNoel "Noel" writes: > ...This set me thinking > about musical 'puns', for want of a better term, like Liszt's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > dreamt that one up, although it's also quite possible the idea was > nicked from somewhere else. ... Well, the US radio and TV network NBC's started using a three-tone theme with the notes G-E-C about 80 years ago. There are conflicting versions as to whether it was originally deliberate or coincidental, but it's been known for a long time that those are the initials of one of their original owners, General Electric Corp. > [1] and the usage justification: we have dozens of words like road, > way, track, street... for bits of ground to move on, but I can't > think of one cognate with g. "bahn", Scandinavian "bane|bana". Are > there any? Hmm. "Band" apparently comes from a word that means "strip" and is of Germanic origin; could that be related? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "But I want credit for all the words msb@vex.net I spelled *right*!" -- BEETLE BAILEY My text in this article is in the public domain. > "Noel" writes: >> [travelling music] It's very handy, and it makes it possible to >> distil >> the DSB acronym for Danske Statsbaner[1] into the three notes D, >> Es, B (dotted crotchet-quaver-minim). [...] >> [1] and the usage justification: we have dozens of words like road, >> way, track, street... for bits of ground to move on, but I can't >> think of one cognate with g. "bahn", Scandinavian "bane|bana". Are >> there any? > Hmm. "Band" apparently comes from a word that means "strip" and is > of Germanic origin; could that be related? There's a brief discussion of the question here: http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:CF7AllmMAz0J:www.yourdictionary.com/communit y/forums/ viewthread/2534/+bahn+etymology&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca or http://tinyurl.com/mv7xxq . They think it's related to "bane", the connection being between "kill" and "beat", as in "beaten path". One contributor says that the verb "bana" is used in Swedish to mean "pave". Dunno, me. CDB wrote... >> "Noel" writes: >>> ... [W]e have dozens of words like road, way, track, street... >>> for bits of ground to move on, but I can't think of one cognate >>> with g. "bahn", Scandinavian "bane | bana". Are there any? [...] > There's a brief discussion of the question here: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "kill" and "beat", as in "beaten path". One contributor says that > the verb "bana" is used in Swedish to mean "pave". Dunno, me. Thank you. A fascinating discussion including references to a Gothic banjo. There does seem to be wide but not unanimous agreement that the common PIE root meaning 'bash' gives us both e. "bane" and g. "bahn" - and gr. "φόνος", as I learnt from the Danish dictionary (ODS). The Danish etymology of "bane" = v. "kill" and n. "track" links the two aspects via "at bane vej" ("to beat a track"). It's not a great leap to start using the verb bit to signify the result of the exercise, as the Germans seem to have done. SignatureNoel Mark Brader wrote... > "Noel" writes: >> ...This set me thinking about musical 'puns', for want of a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the initials of one of their original owners, General Electric > Corp. Thank you; I thought the idea must have been used before, although I don't know how old the Danish one is. ABC, the BBC and CBC are of course also candidates, but none of those - and GEC - is as interesting musically as D Es B. >> [1] and the usage justification: we have dozens of words like >> road, way, track, street... for bits of ground to move on, but I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hmm. "Band" apparently comes from a word that means "strip" and > is of Germanic origin; could that be related? Could well be, but others have come up with highly plausible etymologies elsethreads. SignatureNoel Mark Brader (copyedited): >> Well, the US radio and TV network NBC started using a three-tone >> theme with the notes G-E-C about 80 years ago. ... it's been known >> for a long time that those are the initials of one of their original >> owners, General Electric Corp. "Noel": > Thank you; I thought the idea must have been used before, although I > don't know how old the Danish one is. ABC, the BBC and CBC are of > course also candidates... I think mean "ABC, the ABC, the BBC, and the CBC." > but none of those - and GEC - is as interesting musically as D Es B. Definitely no comment. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Ever wonder why they call the screen msb@vex.net a vacuum tube?" -- Kent Paul Dolan My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >Mark Brader (copyedited): >>> Well, the US radio and TV network NBC started using a three-tone [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Definitely no comment. Using the German names for notes, we ought to be able to come up with a tune for the Arizona Health Care Cost Containment System (pronounced "access")...we'll have to assume that an unwritten "e" or "i" precedes the final letter....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > R H Draney wrote... > > Maria Conlon filted: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > variations on B-A-C-H (which presumes that you call the white note > below C H and the black one below that B, Germanic style). ... You know Bach himself used that motif, right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-A-C-H_motif Scroll down to the bottom for "Other signature motifs". > So here are three examples - Doh, a deer..., B A C H and D Es B. Any > more? If you're willing to take "Doe, a deer", there's a children's riddle: Why is slippery ice like music? If you don't C-sharp, you'll B-flat! You might also be interested in groaning at this: http://boredstiffgeeks.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-you-dont-c-sharp-youll-b-flat.html > [1] and the usage justification: we have dozens of words like road, > way, track, street... for bits of ground to move on, but I can't > think of one cognate with g. "bahn", Scandinavian "bane|bana". Are > there any? There's German "Gasse", meaning "street", apparently. I can't think of any in English. (Assuming that by "cognate" you mean a word with that kind of meaning. I think "cognate" more properly means a word that descends from the same origin, such as "frail" and "fragile", or "color" and "couleur".) -- Jerry Friedman > You might also be interested in groaning at this: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > There's German "Gasse", meaning "street", apparently. More like "alley", although there is also a separate word for that ("die Allee"). <snip> SignatureSkitt (AmE) [...] >> There's German "Gasse", meaning "street", apparently. > > More like "alley", although there is also a separate word for that ("die > Allee"). IME "Allee" refers more often to something grander--an avenue or a boulevard. Other possible translations of Gasse are "lane" and "narrow street", and "Gasse" is frequently part of the name of the thoroughfare in question. SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > street", and "Gasse" is frequently part of the name of the > thoroughfare in question. I agree, but for "Gasse" I was thinking of an AmE "alley", which is small and narrow, usually. Yes, the German "Allee" can be quite grand -- a different thing altogether. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >and narrow, usually. Yes, the German "Allee" can be quite grand -- a >different thing altogether. Gasse also is (or was) a colloquialism equivalent to the English "gutter". There is a famous quote about antisemitism saying something like "das ist fur die Gasse" (genders not guaranteed; origin not remembered). SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Gasse also is (or was) a colloquialism equivalent to the English > "gutter". Just to confuse matters, the German for "gutter" is "Gosse", also used figuratively--for example "in der Gosse enden" means to end up in the gutter. > There is a famous quote about antisemitism saying something > like "das ist fur die Gasse" (genders not guaranteed; origin not > remembered). I found this in a Daily Telegraph article: [quote] My Turkish friend smiled gently. "Das ist für die Gasse," he said. It was a clever answer. The phrase, which roughly translates as "that's for the gutter", was used in the 1920s by a previous Austrian chancellor, Ignaz Seipel, to describe the anti-Semitism that his party preached but never practised. By quoting it, the Turkish MP was at once signalling his familiarity with European history and delivering a neat put-down to Mr Schüssel. [endquote] <http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/1499748/A-cynical -comedy-that-is-likely-to-end-in-ironic-tragedy.html> <http://tinyurl.com/nha7tw> My G-E dictionary [Collins "Complete & Unabridged] translates "auf der Gasse" as "on the street" (Austria, S. Germany) and I'm inclined to think that "Das ist für die Gasse" would be better rendered as "That's for the street". Rey would be the man to ask. SignatureLes (BrE) >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > small and narrow, usually. Yes, the German "Allee" can be quite > grand -- a different thing altogether. I forgot to mention that for a German "Allee", trees along the sides of the street are almost a necessity. It's the same for the Latvian "aleja". SignatureSkitt (AmE) Jerry Friedman wrote... >> R H Draney wrote... >> > Maria Conlon filted: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Scroll down to the bottom for "Other signature motifs". Yes, thank you. I was aware of that. Not the easiest of note-sequences to build on, but that never stopped JSB. >> So here are three examples - Doh, a deer..., B A C H and D Es B. >> Any more? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://boredstiffgeeks.blogspot.com/2009/03/if-you-dont-c-sharp-youll-b-flat.html Thanks again - I enjoyed that. >> [1] and the usage justification: we have dozens of words like >> road, way, track, street... for bits of ground to move on, but I >> can't think of one cognate with g. "bahn", Scandinavian >> "bane|bana". Are there any? > There's German "Gasse", meaning "street", apparently. I can't > think of any in English. (Assuming that by "cognate" you mean a > word with that kind of meaning. I think "cognate" more properly > means a word that descends from the same origin, such as "frail" > and "fragile", or "color" and "couleur".) No, I meant 'cognate', quite prepared for anything that turned up to mean something seemingly totally unconnected with "bahn" - as it did. It would be quite understandable for a German to translate "Drink was the bane of his life" as "Zu trinken var seine Weise des Lebens." SignatureNoel Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>, and I quote: >> R H Draney wrote... >> > Maria Conlon filted: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >that descends from the same origin, such as "frail" and "fragile", or >"color" and "couleur".) German "Gasse" has a cognate in English "gate", not the barrier but the Scandinavian word found in street names like Kirkgate, for example in York. SignatureJames > Quoth Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman@yahoo.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > but the Scandinavian word found in street names like Kirkgate, > for example in York. And as far south as Manchester - St Mary's Gate, Deansgate. SignatureDavid On 27 Jun 2009, contrex wrote > (a) In my opinion, in standard English pronunciation, "fire" has > one syllable. Whether a verb or a noun. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > initialism. It is alleged that in 1943, Bell Laboratories coined > the term acronym Who alleges this? I'm not very good at searching google books, but a quick peek in there turns up some references that look to me to pre- date that. (OED's earliest example is from February, 1943, in American Notes & Queries, but there's no mention of IBM.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >b) Would you say that in acronyms that need to be spelled out (such as >PC, SDSC, NSF) -- as opposed to those like NATO, ASIMO, etc -- the >letter and syllable count is the same? That might depend on how many doubleyews they have. ¬R "People late for work only deal with the essentials, cutting away uneccesary tasks like Occam's Razor with no time to shave." --oTTo--Bahn >> b) Would you say that in acronyms that need to be spelled out (such as >> PC, SDSC, NSF) -- as opposed to those like NATO, ASIMO, etc -- the >> letter and syllable count is the same? > > That might depend on how many doubleyews they have. As in World Wide Web -- nine syllables for the price of three. Signatureathel >As in World Wide Web -- nine syllables for the price of three. Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three syllables. -GAWollman [1] I can't recall if Tim B-L has ever had reason to pronounce it in my presence. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> As in World Wide Web -- nine syllables for the price of three. > > Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three > syllables. I've heard it reduced to "trip dub." --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire On 27 Jun 2009, Jeffrey Turner wrote >>> As in World Wide Web -- nine syllables for the price of three. >> >> Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three >> syllables. > > I've heard it reduced to "trip dub." I know that in NZ it's pronounced "dub dub dub" on the radio and TV (in commercials and such-like), but I've personally only ever encountered the nine-syllable version in the UK. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS wrote on Sat, 27 Jun 2009 16:30:33 +0100: >>>> As in World Wide Web -- nine syllables for the price of >>>> three. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> I've heard it reduced to "trip dub." > I know that in NZ it's pronounced "dub dub dub" on the radio > and TV (in commercials and such-like), but I've personally > only ever encountered the nine-syllable version in the UK. I tend to *say* "W" three times but, in my personal jotted notes, I use a single "w" with the last arm extended to indicate "www." SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not On 27 Jun 2009, James Silverton wrote > HVS wrote on Sat, 27 Jun 2009 16:30:33 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > notes, I use a single "w" with the last arm extended to indicate > "www." Ah, yes; in written notes I write a single "w" in a small circle -- on the model of "@" in an e-mail address. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >>As in World Wide Web -- nine syllables for the price of three. > > Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three > syllables. > > -GAWollman Because you type www and not World Wide Web. >Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three >syllables. Interesting. I'm still the only person *I* know that I've heard say "wuh-wuh-wuh." ¬R http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/bluemoon.html "Nothing says 'Thursday' quite like Ira Fusfeld." > >Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three > >syllables. > > Interesting. I'm still the only person *I* know that I've heard say > "wuh-wuh-wuh." I also say "wuh-wuh-wuh" and I get to say it a lot, trying to tell people how to find documents on our intranet. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> >Which may be why everyone I know[1] pronounces "www" with three >> >syllables. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I also say "wuh-wuh-wuh"... So do these guys: <http://tinyurl.com/ly3grz> > ...and I get to say it a lot, trying to tell > people how to find documents on our intranet. SignatureLes (BrE) > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > way in 'fire alarm' or when it's a verb, such as 'fire your weapons', > almost as if it had a single syllable. Which one is correct? Traditionally, in English verse, "fire" is considered one syllable, as are "hour", "world", "tile", "sail", "chasm", etc. I pronounce all those words as two syllables and have usually scanned them that way in writing verse. > b) Would you say that in acronyms that need to be spelled out (such as > PC, SDSC, NSF) -- as opposed to those like NATO, ASIMO, etc -- the > letter and syllable count is the same? Yes. In keeping with what Glenn Knickerbocker said, here's a pointless haiku about a poster in this group. Dave Hatunen went To WRA in Hudson, Ohio. (WRA is a school, Western Reserve Academy.) -- Jerry Friedman > Yes. In keeping with what Glenn Knickerbocker said, here's a > pointless haiku about a poster in this group. Is there any other kind? ;) > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > a) How many syllables in 'fire'? The Rolling Stones sang two. http://www.mtv.com/lyrics/rolling_stones/hang_fire/783418/lyrics.jhtml --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > a) How many syllables in 'fire'? That will vary by speaker. There are tests that you can use to determine whether you use two syllables or one. These tests involve singing or calling, where you need to change pitch within the word. The Stanford Hymn has a line Where at eve the coastrange lies in the sunset fire. with fire dropping from a [goes to bass to check] D to a C. Those of us who pronounce the word with two syllables (as I believe the author of they lyrics did) will pronounce this /fAI R/ ("fie-ur"), while those who pronounce it with one syllable will pronounce it /fA AIr/ ("fah-ire"). I've heard it performed and recorded both ways. (Clearly a given group has to come to a decision as to which way to pronounce it.) The same thing happens before /l/. My brother's name is "Lyle", and everybody in my family pronounced it with two syllables, calling out /lAI @l/ ("lie-ul") when we wanted him, except for my grandmother who would call /lA AIL/ ("la-ile"). > I pronounce it something along the lines of /fa/ /y/ /er/ when it's > a noun, which would suggest it's a 2- syllables word, but I tend to > say it in a different, more contracted way in 'fire alarm' or when > it's a verb, such as 'fire your weapons', almost as if it had a > single syllable. Which one is correct? Either way will sound fine to most people, and if you're working with something where you need a particular number of syllables, either way of counting it will be wrong to some readers. > b) Would you say that in acronyms that need to be spelled out (such > as PC, SDSC, NSF) -- as opposed to those like NATO, ASIMO, etc -- > the letter and syllable count is the same? As long as none of the letters is "W". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You cannot solve problems with the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |same type of thinking that created Palo Alto, CA 94304 |them. | Albert Einstein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > a) How many syllables in 'fire'? I have always thought of it as two syllables, and so, it seems, have many other Americans: Longfellow rhymes it with "higher". However, there is a long-standing tradition in dictionaries of making it one; AHD & MWC10, to my surprise, do not even list an alternative. Likewise, I have thought of "oil", since early childhood, as having two syllables; for me, it does not rhyme with "boil". Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: When you try to grab power, you should find a piece of it :|| ||: come off in your hand. :|| >> a) How many syllables in 'fire'? > > I have always thought of it as two syllables, and so, it seems, have > many other Americans: Longfellow rhymes it with "higher". However, > there is a long-standing tradition in dictionaries of making it one; > AHD & MWC10, to my surprise, do not even list an alternative. MW changed between the tenth and the eleventh. The tenth has it as /fAIr/, while the eleventh has /fAI(@)r/. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You may hate gravity, but gravity 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |doesn't care. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Clayton Christensen kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |
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