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Discussion Groups / English Usage / June 2009Crap(s)
Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I count this amongst the top five; they certainly didn't ruin it. However, throughout the performance, and in the programme, the dice game was referred to as "crap". The "floating crap game", etc. It was clearly spoken as "crap" and written as "crap". To my mind this is Dead Wrong - I happened to be singing in a different concert with their voice coach on Saturday and I asked her, but she thought they were correct in their usage. Am I right? Were they actually using a moderately unacceptable English term of disapproval, rather than the name of an incomprehensible dice game? If I'm right then the The Richoux Ratio has failed spectacularly: "floating crap game" - 18,500 "floating craps game" - 3,070 "oldest established permanent floating craps game" - 1,560 "oldest established permanent floating crap game" - 10,600  SignatureDavid > Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls > last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "oldest established permanent floating craps game" - 1,560 > "oldest established permanent floating crap game" - 10,600 According to M-W Online, the game is "craps", and the word "crap" is used attributively, as in "a crap game". In other words, you play craps at a crap table. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls >> last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > In other words, you play craps at a crap table. That's my understanding. You play craps. You shoot craps. You join a crap game where you are a crap shooter and may crap out. Apparently (OED) it may derive from the old dice game of hazard where a double one was known as 'crabs' and was a Bad Thing. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls >>> last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Apparently (OED) it may derive from the old dice game of hazard > where a double one was known as 'crabs' and was a Bad Thing. Double one in my crap games was "snake eyes". All those bits of jargon associated with shooting craps are somehow quite poignant: "boxcars", "the hard way", "natural"; I disremember (possibly) several others. SignatureFrank ess Frank ess filted: >> That's my understanding. You play craps. You shoot craps. You join >> a crap game where you are a crap shooter and may crap out. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >associated with shooting craps are somehow quite poignant: "boxcars", >"the hard way", "natural"; I disremember (possibly) several others. "Little Joe from Kokomo"?...there's a corresponding name for rolling ten ("Big" somebody, maybe Ed?)...and then there's all the fun stuff when you bet on someone *else's* luck: "pass" and "come" and "field"...it's the most mathematically interesting table in any casino, with roulette a close second (blackjack would score higher if not for the multi-deck "shoes" they deal from that make it hard to count cards, even intuitively).... The Wikipedia article thinks "crap" comes from the French "crapaud"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > The Wikipedia article thinks "crap" comes from the French "crapaud"....r Whereas the OED leans toward it coming from "crabs". "Craps" isn't cited until 1843, but they have a sense of "crabs" of The lowest throw at hazard, two aces. 1768 LD. CARLISLE in Jesse _G. Selwyn_ (1882) II. 238 (Farmer) If you..will play, the best thing I can wish you is, that you may win and never throw crabs. which would seem to be relevant. The list it under the animal, but note that it might actually be the "apple" sense, which by then had already been extended to "a sour person". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this. | MST3K kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ R H Draney skrev: > "Little Joe from Kokomo"?...there's a corresponding name for rolling ten ("Big" > somebody, maybe Ed?) Big Dick from Boston, I believe. My favorite is Ada from Decatur. SignatureJens Brix Christiansen > R H Draney skrev: > >> "Little Joe from Kokomo"?...there's a corresponding name for rolling >> ten ("Big" somebody, maybe Ed?) > > Big Dick from Boston, I believe. My favorite is Ada from Decatur. Public service announcement: <http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dice-play/CrapsGlossary.htm> And here are Kelly's eye and the rest: <http://www.apennyearned.co.uk/bingo-terms.html> SignatureLes (BrE) >> Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls >> last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > In other words, you play craps at a crap table. The OED cites "craps" to 1843, and also cites "crap's table" to the same work. "Crap" as the name of the game is cited to 1891, with "crap-shooting" (1885), "craphouse" (1888), and "crap games" (1890) a bit earlier. "Crap table" shows up in 1902. Google Books has it about the same, with "crap table" showing up in 1885. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate |profundity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls >> last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >In other words, you play craps at a crap table. That's a dictionary definition, though, and the people who shoot craps don't always follow dictionary definitions. After all, it's not something like "i before e except after c" that you're taught in school. And, I would not think that "play craps" is said by anyone who actually rolls the bones. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls >>> last week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > And, I would not think that "play craps" is said by anyone who > actually rolls the bones. Right -- you /shoot craps/, but it loses on Google to /play craps/ by a ratio of 14 to 1. Oh, well ... SignatureSkitt (AmE) >Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls last >week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I count this [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >"oldest established permanent floating craps game" - 1,560 >"oldest established permanent floating crap game" - 10,600 As one who has actually been around a floating crap game, I'll take the position that either "craps game" or "crap game" is correct. There's no "right" or "wrong" to it. Most people would say that you "shoot craps", but it is not unknown to hear to "shoot crap". One of the many jobs I had in college was night (8PM to 8AM) attendant in a multi-story parking garage. I was the cashier. A floating crap game was held in the basement every Friday night, and the participants tipped me to act as look-out. I had a metal paint bucket in the office, and dropped the paint bucket out of a window if anyone (who wasn't there to pick up his car) came in the garage. The bucket would land with a clatter near a window in the basement. (The basement window was below ground level, but in a pit) The game was held in the garage every Friday night, but the "floating" designation was because the same people put on the game in different places on other nights. These people got the word out on where the game was, screened the invitees, kept order, and took some sort of cut out of the pots. I don't know how that was arranged since I was never allowed to actually watch the game. All of the gamblers were (what we call now) African Americans. Gambling was, of course, illegal in Indiana. However, it wasn't fear of arrest that required a look-out. It was fear of robbery or of the cops coming and confiscating the money. The cops wouldn't bother with the paperwork of an arrest. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls last >> week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I count this [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > There's no "right" or "wrong" to it. Most people would say that you > "shoot craps", but it is not unknown to hear to "shoot crap". Thanks all - I must never have noticed the "crap" version. > One of the many jobs I had in college was night (8PM to 8AM) attendant > in a multi-story parking garage. I was the cashier. A floating crap [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > cops coming and confiscating the money. The cops wouldn't bother with > the paperwork of an arrest. What was your fee? SignatureDavid >> Gambling was, of course, illegal in Indiana. However, it wasn't fear >> of arrest that required a look-out. It was fear of robbery or of the >> cops coming and confiscating the money. The cops wouldn't bother with >> the paperwork of an arrest. > >What was your fee? There wasn't a set fee. Sometimes they'd give me $5, and sometimes they'd throw me $10 or more. I believe I was making $1 or $1.25 an hour, so $5.00 was a good enough sum. It was a great job at the time. I sat in an office from 8PM to 8AM and took parking fees from departing parkers. Once the after-movie crowd was gone I had the rest of the shift to study. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Wife's college put on a (somewhat reduced) version of Guys & Dolls last > week, and very enjoyable it was. I am keen on musicals and I count this [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Am I right? Were they actually using a moderately unacceptable English > term of disapproval, By the way, I've seen the attributive adjective "crap" ("a crap album") mostly from British people. I'm not sure I've ever heard it or seen it from an American. We do have "piece-of-crap" and "piece-of- sh.t" as attributive adjectives, but I think they show anger, not just disapproval. "That piece-of-crap car broke down on me." > rather than the name of an incomprehensible dice > game? "Dice game" is evidence that irregular plurals are less likely to become singular when used attributively--though we still say "toothbrush", "footrest", etc. I think the basic rules of craps are pretty simple, by the way. The terminology can get a little odd. -- Jerry Friedman hollered, "Someone fade me!" |
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