Exotic places
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Ildhund - 01 Jul 2009 15:07 GMT In one of those irritating pauses between services during Murray's match on Monday evening, a cameraman with nothing better to do happened upon an aeroplane with curly wingtips banking against the dying sun. Very pretty, marred only by the commentator's inane remark: "Taking off for somewhere exotic, I'm sure." Has "exotic" lost all vestige of what I think it's supposed to mean?
 Signature Noel
Mark Brader - 01 Jul 2009 17:19 GMT "Noel" writes:
> In one of those irritating pauses between services during Murray's > match on Monday evening, a cameraman with nothing better to do > happened upon an aeroplane with curly wingtips banking against the > dying sun. Very pretty, marred only by the commentator's inane > remark: "Taking off for somewhere exotic, I'm sure." Has "exotic" > lost all vestige of what I think it's supposed to mean? That rather depends on what you think it's supposed to mean, doesn't it? I agree that the remark was inane, but air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something normal today.
On the other hand, I have no idea whether any flights *from the city where "Murray's match", whatever that was, took place*, go to exotic places.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto It's all Henry's fault. msb@vex.net -- Geoff Collyer
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Ildhund - 01 Jul 2009 19:38 GMT Mark Brader wrote...
> "Noel" writes: >> In one of those irritating pauses between services during [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That rather depends on what you think it's supposed to mean, > doesn't it? That's why I phrased it like that, because I may be alone in thinking that "exotic" is supposed to mean "out of place". So, a banana tree would be exotic in my back garden, as would a llama. The opposite of "domestic" or "vernacular" or "native" or "indigenous", depending on what we're talking about. I *think* OED agrees with me, apart from an odd reference to US strip-tease.
> I agree that the remark was inane, but air travel to exotic places > certainly seems like something normal today. In my understanding, a place can't be exotic. Things - especially living creatures, including strippers - can be.
> On the other hand, I have no idea whether any flights *from the > city where "Murray's match", whatever that was, took place*, go to > exotic places. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/events/wimbledon/p003lfny
In case you're told that this clip isn't available exotically, it refers to a match between the best British male tennis player and a Slav in the fourth round of the Wimbledon tennis championships. Read about him here:
http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/news/articles/2009-06-16/200906161245166367390.html
 Signature Noel
Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Jul 2009 22:16 GMT >Mark Brader wrote... >> "Noel" writes: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >In my understanding, a place can't be exotic. Things - especially >living creatures, including strippers - can be. COED: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/exotic
adjective 1 originating in or characteristic of a distant foreign country. 2 strikingly colourful or unusual.
>> On the other hand, I have no idea whether any flights *from the >> city where "Murray's match", whatever that was, took place*, go to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/news/articles/2009-06-16/200906161245166367390.html
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Ildhund - 02 Jul 2009 00:57 GMT Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote...
>>Mark Brader wrote... >>> "Noel" writes: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > country. > 2 strikingly colourful or unusual. Thank you. Compact, indeed. I cannot imagine how the lexicographer could have envisaged applying any of those definitions to a place. Can you?
 Signature Noel
Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Jul 2009 01:06 GMT > Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote... >> COED: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > could have envisaged applying any of those definitions to a place. Can > you? You can't see how a distant foreign country might strike someone as being characteristic of a distant foreign country?
Chinatown, in San Francisco is exotic, by having an ambiance characteristic of China, different from that usual in the US. Beijing even more so.
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R H Draney - 02 Jul 2009 02:38 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote... >>> COED: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >characteristic of China, different from that usual in the US. Beijing >even more so. In Beijing, there's nothing especially exotic about Chinese culture....r
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Jul 2009 03:37 GMT > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > In Beijing, there's nothing especially exotic about Chinese > culture....r That's the main change that I see in the definition of "exotic". It's gone from meaning "relative to it's location" to "relative to the speaker's sense of normalcy". Beijing isn't exotic to those who grew up there; it is to an American, just as New York is exotic to someone from China. Thus the 1915 quotation from O. Henry:
Thus, in all the scorched and exotic places of the earth, Caucasians meet when the day's work is done to preserve the fulness of their heritage by the aspersion of alien things.
They're the ones who came from outside, but to them, the places are "exotic" and "alien".
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tony cooper - 02 Jul 2009 02:53 GMT >> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote... >>> COED: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >characteristic of China, different from that usual in the US. Beijing >even more so. I don't need to fly out of the state to see exotic. South Beach suffices and Key West exceeds.
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Jul 2009 00:45 GMT > Mark Brader wrote... >> "Noel" writes: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > what we're talking about. I *think* OED agrees with me, apart from an > odd reference to US strip-tease. It's the latter half of their sense 2 b:
Outlandish, barbarous, strange, uncouth. Also, having the attraction of the strange or foreign, glamorous.
The "strip-tease" sense is probably from it being (I believe) commonplace and possibly legally more acceptable for strippers to put on the trappings of a Middle Eastern "harem" dancer, a la Salome, and perform a version of the Dance of the Seven Veils. Cultural, you see, not smutty.
>> I agree that the remark was inane, but air travel to exotic places >> certainly seems like something normal today. > > In my understanding, a place can't be exotic. Things - especially > living creatures, including strippers - can be. They've been able to for quite a while
A modern Wandering Jew is he, A student of all races, And when there's nothing left to see In strange, exotic places, He homeward turns for fame to look, Quite sure that he will win it, And writes a most ambitious book, Without one new thing in it!
Cendrillon, "A Kind of Traveller", _Scribner's_, 1880
But it seems to have become common around World War I.
Thus, in all the scorched and exotic places of the earth, Causcasians meet when the day's work is done to preserve the fulness of their heritage by the aspersion of alien things.
O. Henry, "The Shamrock and the Palm", in _Cabbages and Kings_, 1915
The native streets are as "characteristic" of China as any elsewhere, but in a few minutes it is possible to pass beyond any ofthem and find a settlement of Europeans or Americans where there is little to suggest the exotic locale.
Archie Bell, _The Spell of China_, 1917
Mr. Hammond has turned this fantastic tale of just retribution into a little keyboard drama of tense effect, the massive chord progressions which typify the movements of the stone image climaxing into the stroke of justice, lending an added picturesqueness of the bizarre and barbaric by reason of the exotic harmonies, a sound evocation that establishes the exotic _locale_, which places the entire concept without the occidental pale.
_The Musical Quarterly_, October, 1922
Mrs. Gelzer, whose tales of life in the Chinese quarter of Melbourne, "The Street of a Thousand Delights," were widely read and admired, has selected a less exotic locale as the setting for her first novel.
Spring, 1924, catalog at the back of A.E. Beamish, _First Steps to Lawn Tennis_, 1922
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Jerry Friedman - 02 Jul 2009 03:55 GMT > > Mark Brader wrote... > >> "Noel" writes: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > what we're talking about. I *think* OED agrees with me, apart from an > > odd reference to US strip-tease. This is familiar local vernacular in ecology. I'm on mailing lists about birds and plants, and I'm always hearing about exotic species.
> It's the latter half of their sense 2 b: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > perform a version of the Dance of the Seven Veils. Cultural, you see, > not smutty. ...
I'll bet the similarity to "erotic" has a great deal to do with it too.
-- Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes - 02 Jul 2009 05:49 GMT >> > Mark Brader wrote... >> >> "Noel" writes: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >This is familiar local vernacular in ecology. I'm on mailing lists >about birds and plants, and I'm always hearing about exotic species. Our government has embarked on a campaign to remove all exotic vegetation. It's xenophobia applied to plants.
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Ildhund - 02 Jul 2009 00:56 GMT Mark Brader wrote...
> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something > normal today. I'd be interested to hear what *you* mean by "exotic" (a) in general, and (b) when you use it like this.
 Signature Noel
Steve Hayes - 02 Jul 2009 05:55 GMT >Mark Brader wrote... >> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something >> normal today. > >I'd be interested to hear what *you* mean by "exotic" (a) in >general, and (b) when you use it like this. Isn't that what the original comment meant -- the aeroplane might be going to far-away places with different surroundings, unlike those of the place it took off from?
In that context it would take exotic to mean "far away and different", as opposed to, say, flying from Maidenhead to Basingstoke, or Bapsfontein to Ventersdorp. If it flew from Bapsfontein to Basingstoke it would be going somewhere exotic.
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Mark Brader - 02 Jul 2009 06:09 GMT Mark Brader:
>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something >>> normal today. "Noel":
>> I'd be interested to hear what *you* mean by "exotic" (a) in >> general, and (b) when you use it like this. Steve Hayes:
> Isn't that what the original comment meant -- the aeroplane might be > going to far-away places with different surroundings, unlike those > of the place it took off from? Well, either that or unlike the places the person saying it is used to. If it was a British commentator talking about a flight from London, the two may be effectively the same.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.
Jonathan Morton - 02 Jul 2009 21:30 GMT > Mark Brader: >>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If it was a British commentator talking about a flight from London, > the two may be effectively the same. M' Lord, I am instructed that the commentator was speaking of a match in the Gentlemen's Singles at the Lawn Tennis Championships. I understand that these take place in Wimbledon. We may deduce that the flight was from London.
Regards
Jonathan
Steve Hayes - 03 Jul 2009 04:01 GMT >> Mark Brader: >>>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >these take place in Wimbledon. We may deduce that the flight was from >London. So we may also deduce that if it was going to Madeira it would have (of) been exotic, and if it had been going to Birmingham it would not.
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R H Draney - 03 Jul 2009 04:22 GMT Steve Hayes filted:
>>> Mark Brader: >>>>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >So we may also deduce that if it was going to Madeira it would have (of) been >exotic, and if it had been going to Birmingham it would not. But if it were bound for Gibraltar, that would have been inconclusive....r
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John Varela - 01 Jul 2009 18:34 GMT > In one of those irritating pauses between services during Murray's > match on Monday evening, a cameraman with nothing better to do > happened upon an aeroplane with curly wingtips banking against the > dying sun. Very pretty, marred only by the commentator's inane > remark: "Taking off for somewhere exotic, I'm sure." Has "exotic" > lost all vestige of what I think it's supposed to mean? OED:
2. a. Of or pertaining to, or characteristic of a foreigner, or what is foreign (now rare); hence b. Outlandish, barbarous, strange, uncouth. Also, having the attraction of the strange or foreign, glamorous.
Thus, "Taking off for some glamorous foreign place, I'm sure."
Vestiges of other meanings remain.
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