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Exotic places

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Ildhund - 01 Jul 2009 15:07 GMT
In one of those irritating pauses between services during Murray's
match on Monday evening, a cameraman with nothing better to do
happened upon an aeroplane with curly wingtips banking against the
dying sun. Very pretty, marred only by the commentator's inane
remark: "Taking off for somewhere exotic, I'm sure." Has "exotic"
lost all vestige of what I think it's supposed to mean?
Signature

Noel

Mark Brader - 01 Jul 2009 17:19 GMT
"Noel" writes:
> In one of those irritating pauses between services during Murray's
> match on Monday evening, a cameraman with nothing better to do
> happened upon an aeroplane with curly wingtips banking against the
> dying sun. Very pretty, marred only by the commentator's inane
> remark: "Taking off for somewhere exotic, I'm sure." Has "exotic"
> lost all vestige of what I think it's supposed to mean?

That rather depends on what you think it's supposed to mean, doesn't
it?  I agree that the remark was inane, but air travel to exotic places
certainly seems like something normal today.

On the other hand, I have no idea whether any flights *from the city where
"Murray's match", whatever that was, took place*, go to exotic places.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Ildhund - 01 Jul 2009 19:38 GMT
Mark Brader wrote...
> "Noel" writes:
>> In one of those irritating pauses between services during
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> That rather depends on what you think it's supposed to mean,
> doesn't it?

That's why I phrased it like that, because I may be alone in
thinking that "exotic" is supposed to mean "out of place". So, a
banana tree would be exotic in my back garden, as would a llama. The
opposite of "domestic" or "vernacular" or "native" or "indigenous",
depending on what we're talking about. I *think* OED agrees with me,
apart from an odd reference to US strip-tease.

> I agree that the remark was inane, but air travel to exotic places
> certainly seems like something normal today.

In my understanding, a place can't be exotic. Things - especially
living creatures, including strippers - can be.

> On the other hand, I have no idea whether any flights *from the
> city where "Murray's match", whatever that was, took place*, go to
> exotic places.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/events/wimbledon/p003lfny

In case you're told that this clip isn't available exotically, it
refers to a match between the best British male tennis player and a
Slav in the fourth round of the Wimbledon tennis championships. Read
about him here:

http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/news/articles/2009-06-16/200906161245166367390.html
Signature

Noel

Peter Duncanson (BrE) - 01 Jul 2009 22:16 GMT
>Mark Brader wrote...
>> "Noel" writes:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>In my understanding, a place can't be exotic. Things - especially
>living creatures, including strippers - can be.

COED:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/exotic

   adjective
   1 originating in or characteristic of a distant foreign
   country.
   2 strikingly colourful or unusual.

>> On the other hand, I have no idea whether any flights *from the
>> city where "Murray's match", whatever that was, took place*, go to
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>http://www.wimbledon.org/en_GB/news/articles/2009-06-16/200906161245166367390.html

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Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Ildhund - 02 Jul 2009 00:57 GMT
Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote...
>>Mark Brader wrote...
>>> "Noel" writes:
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> country.
>    2 strikingly colourful or unusual.

Thank you. Compact, indeed. I cannot imagine how the lexicographer
could have envisaged applying any of those definitions to a place.
Can you?
Signature

Noel

Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Jul 2009 01:06 GMT
> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote...
>> COED:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> could have envisaged applying any of those definitions to a place. Can
> you?

You can't see how a distant foreign country might strike someone as
being characteristic of a distant foreign country?

Chinatown, in San Francisco is exotic, by having an ambiance
characteristic of China, different from that usual in the US.  Beijing
even more so.

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R H Draney - 02 Jul 2009 02:38 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum filted:

>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote...
>>> COED:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>characteristic of China, different from that usual in the US.  Beijing
>even more so.

In Beijing, there's nothing especially exotic about Chinese culture....r

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Jul 2009 03:37 GMT
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> In Beijing, there's nothing especially exotic about Chinese
> culture....r

That's the main change that I see in the definition of "exotic".  It's
gone from meaning "relative to it's location" to "relative to the
speaker's sense of normalcy".  Beijing isn't exotic to those who grew
up there; it is to an American, just as New York is exotic to someone
from China.  Thus the 1915 quotation from O. Henry:

   Thus, in all the scorched and exotic places of the earth,
   Caucasians meet when the day's work is done to preserve the
   fulness of their heritage by the aspersion of alien things.

They're the ones who came from outside, but to them, the places are
"exotic" and "alien".

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tony cooper - 02 Jul 2009 02:53 GMT
>> Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote...
>>> COED:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>characteristic of China, different from that usual in the US.  Beijing
>even more so.

I don't need to fly out of the state to see exotic.  South Beach
suffices and Key West exceeds.

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Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Evan Kirshenbaum - 02 Jul 2009 00:45 GMT
> Mark Brader wrote...
>> "Noel" writes:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> what we're talking about. I *think* OED agrees with me, apart from an
> odd reference to US strip-tease.

It's the latter half of their sense 2 b:

   Outlandish, barbarous, strange, uncouth. Also, having the
   attraction of the strange or foreign, glamorous.

The "strip-tease" sense is probably from it being (I believe)
commonplace and possibly legally more acceptable for strippers to put
on the trappings of a Middle Eastern "harem" dancer, a la Salome, and
perform a version of the Dance of the Seven Veils.  Cultural, you see,
not smutty.

>> I agree that the remark was inane, but air travel to exotic places
>> certainly seems like something normal today.
>
> In my understanding, a place can't be exotic. Things - especially
> living creatures, including strippers - can be.

They've been able to for quite a while

   A modern Wandering Jew is he,
     A student of all races,
   And when there's nothing left to see
     In strange, exotic places,
   
   He homeward turns for fame to look,
     Quite sure that he will win it,
   And writes a most ambitious book,
     Without one new thing in it!

                        Cendrillon, "A Kind of Traveller",
                        _Scribner's_, 1880

But it seems to have become common around World War I.    

   Thus, in all the scorched and exotic places of the earth,
   Causcasians meet when the day's work is done to preserve the
   fulness of their heritage by the aspersion of alien things.

                          O. Henry, "The Shamrock and the Palm", in
                          _Cabbages and Kings_, 1915

   The native streets are as "characteristic" of China as any
   elsewhere, but in a few minutes it is possible to pass beyond any
   ofthem and find a settlement of Europeans or Americans where there
   is little to suggest the exotic locale.

                          Archie Bell, _The Spell of China_, 1917

   Mr. Hammond has turned this fantastic tale of just retribution
   into a little keyboard drama of tense effect, the massive chord
   progressions which typify the movements of the stone image
   climaxing into the stroke of justice, lending an added
   picturesqueness of the bizarre and barbaric by reason of the
   exotic harmonies, a sound evocation that establishes the exotic
   _locale_, which places the entire concept without the occidental
   pale.

                          _The Musical Quarterly_, October, 1922

   Mrs. Gelzer, whose tales of life in the Chinese quarter of
   Melbourne, "The Street of a Thousand Delights," were widely read
   and admired, has selected a less exotic locale as the setting for
   her first novel.

                          Spring, 1924, catalog at the back of
                          A.E. Beamish, _First Steps to Lawn Tennis_,
                          1922

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Jerry Friedman - 02 Jul 2009 03:55 GMT
> > Mark Brader wrote...
> >> "Noel" writes:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> > what we're talking about. I *think* OED agrees with me, apart from an
> > odd reference to US strip-tease.

This is familiar local vernacular in ecology.  I'm on mailing lists
about birds and plants, and I'm always hearing about exotic species.

> It's the latter half of their sense 2 b:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> perform a version of the Dance of the Seven Veils.  Cultural, you see,
> not smutty.
...

I'll bet the similarity to "erotic" has a great deal to do with it
too.

--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes - 02 Jul 2009 05:49 GMT
>> > Mark Brader wrote...
>> >> "Noel" writes:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>This is familiar local vernacular in ecology.  I'm on mailing lists
>about birds and plants, and I'm always hearing about exotic species.

Our government has embarked on a campaign to remove all exotic vegetation.
It's xenophobia applied to plants.

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Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
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Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Ildhund - 02 Jul 2009 00:56 GMT
Mark Brader wrote...
> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something
> normal today.

I'd be interested to hear what *you* mean by "exotic" (a) in
general, and (b) when you use it like this.
Signature

Noel

Steve Hayes - 02 Jul 2009 05:55 GMT
>Mark Brader wrote...
>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something
>> normal today.
>
>I'd be interested to hear what *you* mean by "exotic" (a) in
>general, and (b) when you use it like this.

Isn't that what the original comment meant -- the aeroplane might be going to
far-away places with different surroundings, unlike those of the place it took
off from?

In that context it would take exotic to mean "far away and different", as
opposed to, say, flying from Maidenhead to Basingstoke, or Bapsfontein to
Ventersdorp. If it flew from Bapsfontein to Basingstoke it would be going
somewhere exotic.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Mark Brader - 02 Jul 2009 06:09 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something
>>> normal today.

"Noel":
>> I'd be interested to hear what *you* mean by "exotic" (a) in
>> general, and (b) when you use it like this.

Steve Hayes:
> Isn't that what the original comment meant -- the aeroplane might be
> going to far-away places with different surroundings, unlike those
> of the place it took off from?

Well, either that or unlike the places the person saying it is used to.
If it was a British commentator talking about a flight from London,
the two may be effectively the same.
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Mark Brader, Toronto | A driver I know is getting uncomfortably close to
msb@vex.net          | earning the nickname "Crash".        --Lee Ayrton

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Jonathan Morton - 02 Jul 2009 21:30 GMT
> Mark Brader:
>>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If it was a British commentator talking about a flight from London,
> the two may be effectively the same.

M' Lord, I am instructed that the commentator was speaking of a match in the
Gentlemen's Singles at the Lawn Tennis Championships. I understand that
these take place in Wimbledon. We may deduce that the flight was from
London.

Regards

Jonathan
Steve Hayes - 03 Jul 2009 04:01 GMT
>> Mark Brader:
>>>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>these take place in Wimbledon. We may deduce that the flight was from
>London.

So we may also deduce that if it was going to Madeira it would have (of) been
exotic, and if it had been going to Birmingham it would not.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

R H Draney - 03 Jul 2009 04:22 GMT
Steve Hayes filted:

>>> Mark Brader:
>>>>>> ... air travel to exotic places certainly seems like something
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>So we may also deduce that if it was going to Madeira it would have (of) been
>exotic, and if it had been going to Birmingham it would not.

But if it were bound for Gibraltar, that would have been inconclusive....r

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An optometrist asks whether you see the glass
more full like this?...or like this?

John Varela - 01 Jul 2009 18:34 GMT
> In one of those irritating pauses between services during Murray's
> match on Monday evening, a cameraman with nothing better to do
> happened upon an aeroplane with curly wingtips banking against the
> dying sun. Very pretty, marred only by the commentator's inane
> remark: "Taking off for somewhere exotic, I'm sure." Has "exotic"
> lost all vestige of what I think it's supposed to mean?

OED:

2. a. Of or pertaining to, or characteristic of a foreigner, or what
is foreign (now rare); hence    b. Outlandish, barbarous, strange,
uncouth. Also, having the attraction of the strange or foreign,
glamorous.

Thus, "Taking off for some glamorous foreign place, I'm sure."

Vestiges of other meanings remain.

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John Varela
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