 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009British English, American English side-by-side (Wikipedia)
I note that the Wikipedia article titled, "American and British English differences" is worth considering: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_differences (All words and phrases in BLUE can be clicked to take you to other relevant webpages.) Among the lists provided.... "List of words having different meanings in British and American English" (simply click a letter in the "Contents" box to find words that start with that letter, or just scroll down a bit to start browsing at words which start with the letter "A"): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_words_having_different_meanings_in_American _and_British_English "List of British words not widely used in the United States": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_words_not_widely_used_in_the_United _States The fundamental Wikipedia article on "English language" provides a huge collection of links to Wikipedia articles and external sources on special aspects of the English language. It is well worth a browser bookmark or "favorite" in my opinion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language Among the (many) interesting lists presented here, "List of dialects of the English language" (all nations): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_dialects As many of you know, Wikipedia is a user-maintained, user-edited online encyclopedia. I've done many edits to Wikipedia articles myself, and you could certainly edit the articles if you wish to. A secondary reason I'm posting this information here is that I think the English-language-related articles at Wikipedia could benefit from the expertise of many of the thoughtful, intelligent people who participate in this newsgroup. Of course, participation in Wikipedia is always free. How accurate is Wikipedia? Opinions on that vary. Here's what a study in the journal Nature concluded: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm === begin quoted text === Wikipedia survives research test The free online resource Wikipedia is about as accurate on science as the Encyclopedia Britannica, a study shows. The British journal Nature examined a range of scientific entries on both works of reference and found few differences in accuracy. Wikipedia is produced by volunteers, who add entries and edit any page.... ....In order to test [Wikipedia's] reliability, Nature conducted a peer review of scientific entries on Wikipedia and the well- established Encyclopedia Britannica. The reviewers were asked to check for errors, but were not told about the source of the information. "Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopedia," reported Nature. "But reviewers also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica, respectively...." === end quoted text === I certainly think Wikipedia has gotten better in recent years. It has always reminded me of the statement attributed to Voltaire, that "the perfect is the enemy of the good." Wikipedia is certainly not perfect, but on many subjects, it is very good (especially, I find, on non-controversial subjects). In any case, if any of you should choose to help improve Wikipedia's English-related articles, many thanks in advance. By the way, Happy Mid-Year Day! The exact middle moment of the year occurs on July 2 at noon (in non-leap years; in leap years, it occurs at one minute past 23:59 hours on July 2.) Hope you are all in good spirits.... -- Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA) http://www.100bestwebsites.org/ "The 100 finest sites on the Web, all in one place!" Widely-watched non-profit ranking of top Internet sites Berkeley Brett skrev: > By the way, Happy Mid-Year Day! The exact middle moment of the year > occurs on July 2 at noon Assuming, of course, that there is no leap second to consider. >(in non-leap years; in leap years, it occurs > at one minute past 23:59 hours on July 2.) Which is usually known as July 3, 00:00.  SignatureJens Brix Christiansen Berkeley Brett: > > By the way, Happy Mid-Year Day! The exact middle moment of the year > > occurs on July 2 at noon Jens Christiansen: > Assuming, of course, that there is no leap second to consider. And no daylight saving (summer) time. In most of Canada, the US, and Europe, it was July 2 at 1 pm. In New Zealand, for example, it was at 11 am. >> (in non-leap years; in leap years, it occurs >> at one minute past 23:59 hours on July 2.) > Which is usually known as July 3, 00:00. Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is not much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on that, please? SignatureMark Brader | "Follow my posts and choose the opposite msb@vex.net | of what I use. That generally works here." Toronto | --Tony Cooper My text in this article is in the public domain. In alt.usage.english, Mark Brader wrote: >Berkeley Brett: >> > By the way, Happy Mid-Year Day! The exact middle moment of the year [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is not >much of the English-speaking world. Why pick Jens up on it rather than Berkeley? >Can we avoid a thread on that, please? You started it. :-) SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England Mark Brader: >> Only in places where they "usually" ... Mike Barnes: > Why pick Jens up on it rather than Berkeley? Because he said "usually". >> Can we avoid a thread on that, please? > > You started it. :-) Doing my best with the construction of this fup! SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "The frencited scrivener, I, outspode." msb@vex.net --Jonathan Buss > Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is not > much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on that, please? Well, I live and work in Bristol in south west England, and, as far as I know, we are in the English speaking world, and the 24 hour clock is pretty universal for official and work-related purposes and where ambiguity or vagueness is to be avoided. (Like when the mid year moment occurs in a leap year maybe?) I take the 08.25 train to work, I sign in at around 08.55, I spend all day working with times in 24 hour format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to record Corrie from 19:30 to 20:00. Quoth contrex <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com>, and I quote: >> Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is not >> much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on that, please? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to record Corrie >from 19:30 to 20:00. It's interesting to see that you have a period between the hours and the minutes in the morning, but that changes to a colon in the afternoon. Is there a standard here? SignatureJames > Quoth contrex <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Is there a standard here? It's like AM and PM only different. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Quoth contrex <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > It's like AM and PM only different. In the afternoon, he switches to the 24-hour clock. In the morning, Time As Our Forebears Knew It is close enough for government work, or even for privatized railway work. At 13:00 one must switch to timetable time for the rest of the livelong day. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is >> not much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > in 24 hour format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to > record Corrie from 19:30 to 20:00. When you say to a co-worker, "Let's schedule the meeting for 14.00" or "My train leaves at 14.00", how do you pronounce it? "Fourteen o'clock"? "Fourteen hundred"? "Fourteen"? Something else? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |don't want it lying around where Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the children might be exposed to |it, but when you need one, you need kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will (650)857-7572 |do. | Bill McNutt http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > When you say to a co-worker, "Let's schedule the meeting for 14.00" or > "My train leaves at 14.00", how do you pronounce it? "Fourteen > o'clock"? "Fourteen hundred"? "Fourteen"? Something else? People read "14.30" as "fourteen thirty", but not many people say "fourteen o'clock" (except me; sometimes "fourteen hundred", but I don't like it because we're not really talking about 100s). Of course, if I were Minister of Education, the schools would teach kids to say "twelve o'clock, thirteen o'clock, ..." and within a generation it would become entirely natural, along with the metric system. (Of course, I'd also eradicate the British custom of using "." for times and Bible verses; I prefer the French and German "h" is the best for time, and ":" best for fractions without a fixed radix.) Incidentally, I was disappointed when I first went to France and discovered that they don't express approximately 14h30 as "quatorze heures et demie". Signaturehmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what happens. (Bryce Utting) Adam Funk skrev: > Of course, if I were Minister of Education, the schools would teach > kids to say "twelve o'clock, thirteen o'clock, ..." and within a > generation it would become entirely natural, along with the metric > system. You overestimate the influence of the schools. In Denmark we have had 24 hour clock all my life, but we usually don't say "fourteen o'clock (klokken fjorten). It's "two o'clock". We don't teach that way of speaking since it feels unnatural. We don't have 24 hour analogue watches. If precision is critical, we may use the 24 hour notation, but we don't if there is no ambiguity. It might be someone asking when a train leaves or someone asking about the time for an appointment. But we might as well say "Two thirty in the afternoon". > (Of course, I'd also eradicate the British custom of using > "." for times and Bible verses; I prefer the French and German What do you mean? Are you thinking of 5 · 8 = 40 That is German (and Danish) notation as well. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Adam Funk skrev: >> (Of course, I'd also eradicate the British custom of using >> "." for times and Bible verses; I prefer the French and German [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >That is German (and Danish) notation as well. It is also used in English technical work. In fact vector math has both dot and cross products: A . B and A x B (I don't know how to make a floating dot like you did.) Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen wrote, in <7g3v45t8jg3o88qsvmra9brkvkil04463q@4ax.com> on Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:18:42 -0700: > >Adam Funk skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > has both dot and cross products: A . B and A x B (I don't know > how to make a floating dot like you did.) Alt-0183 in Windows. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Hatunen wrote, in <7g3v45t8jg3o88qsvmra9brkvkil04463q@4ax.com> > on Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:18:42 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Alt-0183 in Windows. I'd write that down except I'll just forget where I wrote it down. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>Hatunen wrote, in <7g3v45t8jg3o88qsvmra9brkvkil04463q@4ax.com> >> on Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:18:42 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'd write that down except I'll just forget where I wrote it >down. If you have any version of Windows, you have a little program called charmap.exe lurking somewhere. A shortcut to it on your desktop will enable you to look up such things for yourself. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>Adam Funk skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > has both dot and cross products: A . B and A x B (I don't know > how to make a floating dot like you did.) Well it's compose-x-x for the cross product: × I've got compose mapped onto the otherwise useless button with a little picture of a mouse moving down a menu on it. Compose-.-. is supposed to generate the middle dot, but it gives me ellipses instead: … Other sources suggest compose-^-. but that doesn't do anything. I can get it with AltGr-. (·) but that's not as nice as a memorable compose sequence (I can get × as AltGr-shift-, but have to press the keys in that order). I look on these things as a challenge. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > It is also used in English technical work. In fact vector math > has both dot and cross products: A . B and A x B (I don't know > how to make a floating dot like you did.) "Ctrl-x 8 ." in XEmacs. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I believe there are more instances 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |of the abridgment of the freedom of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the people by gradual and silent |encroachments of those in power kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |than by violent and sudden (650)857-7572 |usurpations. | James Madison http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >(I don't know >how to make a floating dot like you did.) That's what Copy and Paste was designed for. · SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>(I don't know >>how to make a floating dot like you did.) > >That's what Copy and Paste was designed for. (Slaps self upside of head) Duh. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Adam Funk skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You overestimate the influence of the schools. (And I was being a bit facetious.) > In Denmark we have > had 24 hour clock all my life, but we usually don't say "fourteen [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > That is German (and Danish) notation as well. That mid-level dot is multiplication (and dot-product of vectors) in English mathematical notation too. I was talking about citations such as "John 3:16" (American) vs "John 3.16" (British), whereas in both countries "3.16" in general means 3+16/100. OTOH, most (all?) other European languages use "3,16" for 3+16/100. But I have just remembers that series such as 3.8, 3.9, 3.10, 3.11, ... are used for software versioning, so maybe I should shut up. SignatureLeila: "I don't think he knows." Agent Rogersz: "Increase the voltage." Leila: "What if he's innocent?" Agent Rogersz: "No one is innocent. Proceed" (Cox 1984) >> Adam Funk skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > 3+16/100. OTOH, most (all?) other European languages use "3,16" for > 3+16/100. If you go back a few generations, the English were using . (on the line) for multiplication and ? (centered) for the decimal point; the reverse was probably viewed as an Americanism. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Bertel Hansen: >>> What do you mean? Are you thinking of >>> 5 · 8 = 40 >>> That is German (and Danish) notation as well. Adam Funk: >> That mid-level dot is multiplication (and dot-product of vectors) in >> English mathematical notation too. Roland Hutchinson: > If you go back a few generations, the English were using . (on the line) > for multiplication and · (centered) for the decimal point; the reverse > was probably viewed as an Americanism. Not that many generations; I've seen it in books from as late as around 1970. I wonder if either the change to decimal currency or the increasing use of computers was a reason for the change. At one time it wasn't just the English who wrote "." for multiplication. When a friend looked up a paper published in German in 1887 in the Swedish journal Acta Mathematica, he was interested to see this notation there. For example, "2.17" was used to mean 2 times 17. Of course, in German (and many other European languages) the normal decimal point is ",", so "2.17" does not suggest "two point one seven" as it does to us. SignatureMark Brader | "This was followed by a vocal response which Toronto | would now be reserved for kicking a ball in a net." msb@vex.net | --Derrick Beckett My text in this article is in the public domain. > Bertel Hansen: >>>> What do you mean? Are you thinking of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > German (and many other European languages) the normal decimal point is > ",", so "2.17" does not suggest "two point one seven" as it does to us. Wikipedia, s.v. "interpunct": "In British publications up to the mid-1970s, especially scientific and mathematical texts, the decimal point was commonly typeset as a middle dot. When the British currency was decimalised in 1971, the official advice issued was to write decimal amounts with a raised point (thus: ?21?48) and to use a decimal point "on the line" only when typesetting constraints made it unavoidable. The widespread introduction of electronic typewriters and calculators soon afterwards was probably a major factor contributing to the decline of the raised decimal point, although it can still sometimes be encountered in academic circles (e.g., Cambridge University 2006) and its use is still enforced by some UK-based academic journals such as The Lancet." Apparently there is no Unicode code point that indicates the semantics of the decimal point. http://unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/Archives-Old/UML015/0404.html SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Bertel Hansen: > >>> What do you mean? Are you thinking of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > German (and many other European languages) the normal decimal point is > ",", so "2.17" does not suggest "two point one seven" as it does to us. Still in use in Dutch. (with the raised point) x and * are also used for multiplication. Jan Mark Brader filted: >At one time it wasn't just the English who wrote "." for multiplication. >When a friend looked up a paper published in German in 1887 in the >Swedish journal Acta Mathematica, he was interested to see this notation >there. For example, "2.17" was used to mean 2 times 17. Of course, in >German (and many other European languages) the normal decimal point is >",", so "2.17" does not suggest "two point one seven" as it does to us. It certainly "feels" British to me...another British usage of the full stop came in the works of H S M Coxeter on tessellations and polyhedra...a regular pattern might be designated 3.4.6.4 (a triangle, two squares and a hexagon around each vertex, with the squares non-adjacent)...the symbol for another pattern, 3³.4², suggests that the dots were thought of as something like multiplication....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Mark Brader filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >vertex, with the squares non-adjacent)...the symbol for another pattern, 3³.4², >suggests that the dots were thought of as something like multiplication....r Our engineering instructors in 1960's and 1970's America often used a raised dot to indicate multiplication, as did we. Our mathematics instructors, on the other hand, more often used the x symbol. Both used parenthesis inside brackets, when needed, to set off expressions. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:15:34 +0100: > Our engineering instructors in 1960's and 1970's America often > used a raised dot to indicate multiplication, as did we. Our > mathematics instructors, on the other hand, more often used > the x symbol. Both used parenthesis inside brackets, when > needed, to set off expressions. -- I'm going a bit OT but, as usual, the topic is drifting. Because of British upbringing perhaps, I have to think hard to remember definitions of brackets and parentheses and braces. To me there are three (or more) sorts of brackets. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Chuck wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:15:34 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of brackets and parentheses and braces. To me there are three (or more) > sorts of brackets. I would say brackets are square [], parentheses round(ish) and braces curly {}. But I suppose brackets and braces could be interchanged. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > > Chuck wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:15:34 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > depended upon an abundant supply of > the poor. --Voltaire In my experience, it's common usage in programming circles to say "square brackets" and "curly braces". Parentheses are always ( ). Jeffrey wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:59:45 +0430: >> Chuck wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:15:34 +0100: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> to remember definitions of brackets and parentheses and >> braces. To me there are three (or more) sorts of brackets. > I would say brackets are square [], parentheses round(ish) and > braces curly {}. But I suppose brackets and braces could be > interchanged. Those are the definitions that I remember when I think hard but I've come across many people in the US who feel that the terms are carved into stone. By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Jeffrey wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:59:45 +0430: >> I would say brackets are square [], parentheses round(ish) and >> braces curly {}. But I suppose brackets and braces could be >> interchanged. That agrees with my usage, at least when I am talking typesetting. However, there is a broader use of "bracket" to include all enclosing paired characters (when I worked for a typesetting company, our name for that was "fences"), so it is prudent to call [] "square brackets" in mixed company. > Those are the definitions that I remember when I think hard but I've > come across many people in the US who feel that the terms are carved > into stone. By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? Those are called angular brackets in the trade -- another good reason to call square brackets square. In ASCII one must make do with <>, but in print those brackets are distinct from the less-than & greater-than signs, being taller & narrower. In Dirac's own terminology, however, < & | are mated to form bras, | & > are mated to form kets, and a bracket is a whole expression of the form <a|b> or <a|H|b>. Wonderment at what happened to the c in this whimsy has inspired the clerihew P. A. M. Dirac Refused to call it a brac. Like many Brits, He had a thing about tits. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Human nature is something we are supposed to rise above. :|| Joe Fineman filted: >> Jeffrey wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:59:45 +0430: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >but in print those brackets are distinct from the less-than & >greater-than signs, being taller & narrower. If your contact lenses are a little dirty, those turn into guillemets....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Joe Fineman filted: >>Those are called angular brackets in the trade -- another good >>reason to call square brackets square. In ASCII one must make do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If your contact lenses are a little dirty, those turn into > guillemets....r They are much too tall for that. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: A politician uses statistics as a drunk uses a lamppost -- :|| ||: for support rather than illumination. :|| >> Joe Fineman filted: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > They are much too tall for that. Too wide, as well. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) James Silverton: > > By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? Joe Fineman: > Those are called angular brackets in the trade -- another good reason > to call square brackets square. In ASCII one must make do with <>, > but in print those brackets are distinct from the less-than & > greater-than signs, being taller & narrower. Yes. However, I don't remember seeing them called "angular" brackets; "angle" brackets is the term I'm familiar with. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | There is no step function between "safe" and "unsafe". msb@vex.net | -- Jeff Janes > Joe Fineman: >> Those are called angular brackets in the trade -- another good [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes. However, I don't remember seeing them called "angular" > brackets; "angle" brackets is the term I'm familiar with. Wikipedia agrees with you. In my book, however, angle brackets are pieces of metal with holes in them, to be screwed to pieces of wood to keep them at right angles: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.leftnode.com/public/images/door_ desk_angle_bracket.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.leftnode.com/blog/entry/2&h=531&w=8 00&sz=21&tbnid=ht0blykQ4BVVTM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522angle%2B bracket%2522&usg=__qMOaCKxo2FaQVvOaFO4QiR6eGjI=&ei=ELtTStD3OIvmMcj0jfAI&sa=X&oi= image_result&resnum=8&ct=image Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: We have torn ourselves away from nature as a man tears :|| ||: himself away from a crowd. :|| Mark Brader: > > However, I don't remember seeing them called "angular" > > brackets; "angle" brackets is the term I'm familiar with. Joe Fineman: > Wikipedia agrees with you. In my book, however, angle brackets are > pieces of metal with holes in them, to be screwed to pieces of wood to > keep them at right angles... Those I'd normally just call brackets, but "angle brackets" doesn't bother me. SignatureMark Brader "Great things are not done by those Toronto who sit down and count the cost msb@vex.net of every thought and act." --Daniel Gooch >> Joe Fineman: >>> Those are called angular brackets in the trade -- another good [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >pieces of metal with holes in them, to be screwed to pieces of wood to >keep them at right angles: >http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.leftnode.com/public/images/door_ desk_angle_bracket.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.leftnode.com/blog/entry/2&h=531&w=8 00&sz=21&tbnid=ht0blykQ4BVVTM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522angle%2B bracket%2522&usg=__qMOaCKxo2FaQVvOaFO4QiR6eGjI=&ei=ELtTStD3OIvmMcj0jfAI&sa=X&oi= image_result&resnum=8&ct=image And braces support trousers, but whether one is talking about men's attire or mathematical symbols would probably be clear from the context. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Fineman wrote: >>> Joe Fineman: >>>> Those are called angular brackets in the trade -- another good >>>> reason to call square brackets square. In ASCII one must make do [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > attire or mathematical symbols would probably be clear from the > context. The teeth! What about the teeth? SignatureSkitt (AmE) bracing himself >> Fineman wrote: >>>> Joe Fineman: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >The teeth! What about the teeth? Well, mathematicians are often braced by problems they can get their teeth into. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > > Fineman wrote: > >>> Joe Fineman: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > The teeth! What about the teeth? TEETH WILL BE PROVIDED! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > > > Fineman wrote: > > >>> Joe Fineman: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > > >> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.leftnode.com/public/images/door_ desk_angle_bracket.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.leftnode.com/blog/en try/2&h=531&w=800&sz=21&tbnid=ht0blykQ4BVVTM:&tbnh=95&tbnw=143&prev=/ima ges%3Fq%3D%2522angle%2Bbracket%2522&usg=__qMOaCKxo2FaQVvOaFO4QiR6eGjI=&e i=ELtTStD3OIvmMcj0jfAI&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=8&ct=image > > > And braces support trousers, but whether one is talking about men's > > > attire or mathematical symbols would probably be clear from the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > TEETH WILL BE PROVIDED! More than brain cells? Jan > [ ... ] > In Dirac's own terminology, however, < & | are mated to form bras, | & >> are mated to form kets, and a bracket is a whole expression of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Like many Brits, > He had a thing about tits. Did you write this yourself (searching for "He had a thing about tits" on google yielded your post and one other, also from July 2009)? If so, congratulations. Maybe not quite up to James's standards, but pretty good nonetheless. So far as the last two lines are concerned, we Brits tend to think it's the Yanks who have an obsession with bosoms (as Terry-Thomas once expressed it). Signatureathel > Jeffrey wrote on Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:59:45 +0430: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > come across many people in the US who feel that the terms are carved > into stone. By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? Useful for wall-mounting a Dirac. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >> ... By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? > >Useful for wall-mounting a Dirac. I mention those in another post; "<" is called "bra" and ">" is called "ket". Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> ... By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? >> >>Useful for wall-mounting a Dirac. > > I mention those in another post; "<" is called "bra" and ">" is > called "ket". Try putting them on the wrong way. SignatureSome say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults. [XKCD 312] > >>> ... By the way, have you heard of "Dirac Brackets" ? > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Try putting them on the wrong way. That gives you a bad case of projection, Jan > Our engineering instructors in 1960's and 1970's America often used a > raised dot to indicate multiplication, as did we. Our mathematics > instructors, on the other hand, more often used the x symbol. Both > used parenthesis inside brackets, when needed, to set off expressions. Does anyone still do that thing where you draw a line over the top of a group of terms to "put them in brackets"? SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Nick Atty: > Does anyone still do that thing where you draw a line over the top of a > group of terms to "put them in brackets"? It's called a vinculum. Most people who use a square root sign today do this, but they think of the vinculum as part of the sign. Historically, it was a separate component, and I've seen books that use the square root sign without it. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "I don't know about your brain, msb@vex.net | but mine is really bossy." -- Laurie Anderson My text in this article is in the public domain. > Nick Atty: >> Does anyone still do that thing where you draw a line over the top [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > separate component, and I've seen books that use the square root > sign without it. To use a bare vinculum for mere bracketing would be rash these days. Such bars usually have some special meaning -- especially, some kind of aveage. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: When the water reaches the upper decks, follow the rats. :|| Joe Fineman filted: >> Nick Atty: >>> Does anyone still do that thing where you draw a line over the top [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Such bars usually have some special meaning -- especially, some kind >of aveage. Found astride a group of digits, I'd assume it represented a repeating decimal....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Joe Fineman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Found astride a group of digits, I'd assume it represented a repeating > decimal....r Which has gotten me thinking: Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" (as the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Joe Fineman filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" (as >the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? The square root symbol? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Joe Fineman filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The square root symbol? By gum, I think you're right. That one was rather staring me in the face, wasn't it. One for the "duh" file. Oh, and by the way (I haven't said it yet), welcome back! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson: >>> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" >>> (as the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? Chuck Riggs: >> The square root symbol? Roland Hutchinson: > By gum, I think you're right. I don't. If you use it with one operand, it's square root; with two, it's nth root. (The other operand is the n, nestled like a superscript in the upper left corner.) The fact that the two meanings are related doesn't mean it's not overloaded; in fact, it makes it a classic example of why people *would* overload it. The integral sign has a similar issue. With one operand, it means the indefinite integral; with three, the definite integral. Another candidate for an answer is the = sign, but then it depends on what exactly you consider it to mean. For example, in a context of modulo 5 arithmetic we might write "7 = 2", but then are we saying that 7 and 2 are two different integers that are congruent modulo 5 (which might also be written with the triple-barred "congruent" sign), or are we saying that in modulo 5 arithmetic, where only 5 integers exist, 7 and 2 are two names for the same one? I lean to the second view and therefore feel that "=" should be considered non-overloaded. (Of course if we allow uses outside of math, it *is* overloaded -- in different widely used programming languages it has two different meanings, both different from the mathematical one.) Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. I think the notation in geometrical diagrams where a little square is set into the intersection two lines to mark a known right angle is also probably non-overloaded, but it's not exactly a "symbol" in its own right. SignatureMark Brader | Either the universe works in a predictable, analyzable Toronto | way or it works spasmodically, with miracles, action at msb@vex.net | a distance and wishful thinking as the three fundamental | forces. People tend to take one view or the other. | -- Frank D. Kirschner My text in this article is in the public domain. > Roland Hutchinson: >>>> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > doesn't mean it's not overloaded; in fact, it makes it a classic example > of why people *would* overload it. You've got a point there. I've got to start thinking before I post. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > You've got a point there. > > I've got to start thinking before I post. Please don't set a bad precedent. SignatureSteve: Now, okay. I did say that monkeys could program Visual Basic. Leo: But not that all Visual Basic programmers are monkeys. Steve: Exactly. [Security Now 194] >> Roland Hutchinson: >>>>> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I've got to start thinking before I post. No worries. You were right, as was I. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or >equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. While perhpas not really the same graphic symbol, foroms of the signs "<" and ">" are also used as a form of bracket in certain processes for quantum theory notation, where they are called "bra" and "ket". See http://www.physics.unlv.edu/~bernard/phy721_99/tex_notes/node6.html Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Mark Brader; >> Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or >> equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. Dave Hatunen (copyedited): > While perhaps not really the same graphic symbol, forms of the > signs "<" and ">" are also used as a form of bracket ... So what? Please reread. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Where is down special?" ... "Good." msb@vex.net | "Do you refuse to answer my question?" "Don't know." >Mark Brader; >>> Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >So what? Please reread. I just did. What's your point? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Mark Brader: >>>> Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or >>>> equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. Dave Hatunen (copyedited): >>> While perhaps not really the same graphic symbol, forms of the >>> signs "<" and ">" are also used as a form of bracket ... Mark Brader: >> So what? Please reread. Dave Hatunen: > I just did. What's your point? That I never mentioned "<" or ">". SignatureMark Brader | The "I didn't think of that" type of failure occurs because Toronto | I didn't think of that, and the reason I didn't think of it msb@vex.net | is because it never occurred to me. If we'd been able to | think of 'em, we would have. -- John W. Campbell My text in this article is in the public domain. >Mark Brader: >>>>> Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >That I never mentioned "<" or ">". Ah. There are other greater-than and less-than symbols? I didn't know that (save for some computer language conventions). Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>>> Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or >>>>>> equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. >>>>> While perhaps not really the same graphic symbol, forms of the >>>>> signs "<" and ">" are also used as a form of bracket ... >>>> So what? Please reread. >>> I just did. What's your point? >> That I never mentioned "<" or ">". > Ah. There are other greater-than and less-than symbols? I didn't > know that (save for some computer language conventions). I didn't mention *any* "greater than" or "less than" symbols! SignatureMark Brader "By this time I was feeling guilty. No, correction, Toronto I was feeling that I *should* feel guilty ..." msb@vex.net -- Jude Devereaux >>>>>>> Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or >>>>>>> equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >I didn't mention *any* "greater than" or "less than" symbols! Oh. Of course. I don't know of any other use of the common symbol for the likes of LTE. Never mind. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>That I never mentioned "<" or ">". > > Ah. There are other greater-than and less-than symbols? I didn't > know that (save for some computer language conventions). In mathematical typesetting, the greater-than and less-than symbols are wider and shorter than angle brackets. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Brackets.svg/180px-Brac kets.svg.png The red symbols in that picture are less/greater-than; the ones right above those are angle brackets. SignatureIn Karhide king and kyorremy have a good deal of control over what people do, but very little over what they hear, and none over what they say. Here, the government can check not only act but thought. Surely no men should have such power over others. (LeGuin 1969) >>>That I never mentioned "<" or ">". >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >The red symbols in that picture are less/greater-than; the ones right >above those are angle brackets. Read the whole thread more carefully. Like I didn't. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>That I never mentioned "<" or ">". >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Read the whole thread more carefully. Like I didn't. OK! SignatureSteve: Now, okay. I did say that monkeys could program Visual Basic. Leo: But not that all Visual Basic programmers are monkeys. Steve: Exactly. [Security Now 194] Mark Brader filted: >Roland Hutchinson: >>>> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >different widely used programming languages it has two different meanings, >both different from the mathematical one.) In most of the programming languages I'm familiar with, different symbols are used for the "compare for equality" and the "assign a value" operators...the only one that comes to mind where the two are the same is PL/1 (which also uses parentheses in multiple ways that get their own unique symbols in other languages)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Mark Brader [referring to the = sign]: >> (Of course if we allow uses outside of math, it *is* overloaded -- >> in different widely used programming languages it has two different >> meanings, both different from the mathematical one.) R.H. Draney: > In most of the programming languages I'm familiar with, different > symbols are used for the "compare for equality" and the "assign a > value" operators... Is that meant to be a correction? If so, please reread. SignatureMark Brader "They are taking to the new methods Toronto like a duck takes to stock trading." msb@vex.net --Mark Leeper Mark Brader filted: >Mark Brader [referring to the = sign]: >>> (Of course if we allow uses outside of math, it *is* overloaded -- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Is that meant to be a correction? If so, please reread. I don't doubt that programming languages other than PL/1 use the = sign for "two different meanings", but of those I'm fluent in, only that one language does so...within the confines of any one of Fortran, APL, Pascal, C, the symbol is not overloaded....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Mark Brader [referring to the = sign]: >>>> (Of course if we allow uses outside of math, it *is* overloaded -- >>>> in different widely used programming languages it has two different >>>> meanings, both different from the mathematical one.) R.H. Draney: >>> In most of the programming languages I'm familiar with, different >>> symbols are used for the "compare for equality" and the "assign a >>> value" operators... Mark Brader: >> Is that meant to be a correction? If so, please reread. R.H. Draney: > I don't doubt that programming languages other than PL/1 use the = sign > for "two different meanings", but of those I'm fluent in, only that one > language does so...within the confines of any one of Fortran, APL, > Pascal, C, the symbol is not overloaded. Agreed. But the question was about uses of the symbol, not uses in a particular context such as a particular programming language. In other words, we're just viewing the same facts from different angles. SignatureMark Brader "Remember, this is Mark we're dealing with. Toronto Rationality and fact won't work very well." msb@vex.net -- Jeff Scott Franzman My text in this article is in the public domain. > In most of the programming languages I'm familiar with, different symbols are > used for the "compare for equality" and the "assign a value" operators...the > only one that comes to mind where the two are the same is PL/1 (which also uses > parentheses in multiple ways that get their own unique symbols in other > languages)....r That's because you only program in decent languages. Pretty well all Basics I've encountered use = for both assignment and comparison. As does shell scripting if you accept that "test" is part of the language and not just another program! I'm ashamed to confess that my home-brew scripting langauge falls into this class. And, of course, the fact that C uses = for assignment and Pascal uses it for comparison is overloading across the field of languages, even if not within a particular one. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu Nick filted: >> In most of the programming languages I'm familiar with, different symbols are >> used for the "compare for equality" and the "assign a value" operators...the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >does shell scripting if you accept that "test" is part of the language >and not just another program! I once worked with a dialect of Basic (on the IBM 5100?) that required assignment statements to begin with the keyword "LET".... In one sense of course, even the "decent" uses are overloaded, as anyone who's written a compiler knows...comparing two integers generates different code than comparing two character strings, and assigning a Boolean to a variable of that type is not the same as assigning a floating point value to a likewise appropriate identifier...(we shan't even get into implicit type conversion).... >And, of course, the fact that C uses = for assignment and Pascal uses it >for comparison is overloading across the field of languages, even if not >within a particular one. I'm loving the PHP syntax in this neighborhood: one equal sign means "assign", two means "compare for equal value", and three means "compare for equal value *and* identical data type".... (Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day...give a man two fish, he'll eat for two days...give a man three fish, he'll eat for two days and then become violently ill on the third)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >I'm loving the PHP syntax in this neighborhood: one equal sign means >"assign", two means "compare for equal value", and three means >"compare for equal value *and* identical data type".... Ruby gets this right(er): '=' is the assignment operator, '==' is same-object comparison, and '===' is usually the same thing, but is called internally by case statements, so that you (or the implementation) can override it with more useful behavior there. (For example, Class#=== is defined as the union of Class#== and Object#instance_of?, so that you can mix classes and other values in the branches of a case statement.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >Roland Hutchinson: >>>> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >doesn't mean it's not overloaded; in fact, it makes it a classic example >of why people *would* overload it. No, the operands, and there can be any number of them, in the square root operation are what appear under the sign. If the symbol is used with a superscript, we no longer have the square root symbol. <snip> SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >No, the operands, and there can be any number of them, in the square >root operation are what appear under the sign. If the symbol is used >with a superscript, we no longer have the square root symbol. What we then have is the root symbol, or radical symbol. http://www.und.nodak.edu/instruct/lgeller/radical.html has an interesting take on this. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Oh! But how about the "greater than or equal to" and "less than or > equal to" signs? I can't think of any alternate meanings for those. In partial order theory those are overloaded to mean "follows or equal to" and "precedes or equal to" (in partial order) and don't have the properties that you would normally expect from numeric non-strict inequalities. SignatureAlec Kojaev St.Petersburg, Russia [30E18 59N56] >>>> Joe Fineman filted: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Oh, and by the way (I haven't said it yet), welcome back! Thank you, Roland. Being back has brightened my days. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >> Joe Fineman filted: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The square root symbol? The meaning depends on the field in which you are trying to extract roots, Jan > Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" (as > the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? I doubt it. A while ago, I browsed through _A History of Mathematical Notations_ by Florian Cajori; it's amazing how much mathematical notation has changed over just the past two or three centuries, and how many different things every squiggle can represent, and vice versa. (Or, to put it properly, the squiggle-semantics mapping is n-to-n with the mean n surprisingly high.) SignatureA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? >> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" >> (as the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > changed over just the past two or three centuries, and how many > different things every squiggle can represent, and vice versa. Yes; I am pretty familiar with that history and with Cajori's classic book about it -- which is what prompted me to ask the question. > (Or, to put it properly, the squiggle-semantics mapping is n-to-n with > the mean n surprisingly high.) Well put, that. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> (Or, to put it properly, the squiggle-semantics mapping is n-to-n with >> the mean n surprisingly high.) > > Well put, that. Thanks. Maybe you'll forgive me for the violin jokes now in the interpipes. SignatureNobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public. [Mencken] >>> (Or, to put it properly, the squiggle-semantics mapping is n-to-n with >>> the mean n surprisingly high.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks. Maybe you'll forgive me for the violin jokes now in the > interpipes. Heck, despite teaching a bit of violin for pecuniary gain at one of our fine regional universities, I'm really a violist (in both pronuncations of that homograph). Bring on the violin jokes! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Thanks. Maybe you'll forgive me for the violin jokes now in the >> interpipes. > > Heck, despite teaching a bit of violin for pecuniary gain at one of our fine > regional universities, I'm really a violist (in both pronuncations of that > homograph). Homograph? > Bring on the violin jokes! OK, I found the standard repository of musician jokes: http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/jokes/ SignatureBob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele] >>> Thanks. Maybe you'll forgive me for the violin jokes now in the >>> interpipes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Homograph? Violist, one who plays the viol (i.e., viola da gamba), /'vaI@lIst/ Violist, one who plays the viola (i.e., alto/tenor violin), /vi'olIst/ Note, however that the "violist" "violist da gamba" (see .sig) usually gets the first (/'vaI@lIst/) pronunciation. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) In alt.usage.english, Roland Hutchinson wrote: >Note, however that the "violist" "violist da gamba" (see .sig) usually gets >the first (/'vaI@lIst/) pronunciation. My first thought on seeing "violist da gamba" was that there can't be that many viola players *without* legs. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, Roland Hutchinson wrote: >>Note, however that the "violist" "violist da gamba" (see .sig) usually gets >>the first (/'vaI@lIst/) pronunciation. > >My first thought on seeing "violist da gamba" was that there can't be >that many viola players *without* legs. And even fewer without arms. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >In alt.usage.english, Roland Hutchinson wrote: > >>Note, however that the "violist" "violist da gamba" (see .sig) usually gets > >>the first (/'vaI@lIst/) pronunciation. > > > >My first thought on seeing "violist da gamba" was that there can't be > >that many viola players *without* legs. I've watched not a few viola players get legless in my day, though I don't (and never did) drink much myself. > And even fewer without arms. Not viola da braccio players, at any rate. Which reminds me: Q. Why is the viola called "Bratche" in German? A. Because that's the sound a viola makes when you step on it. Q. What is the only viola joke that can't be told about the banjo or the saxophone? A. See above. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) [...] > Q. Why is the viola called "Bratche" in German? > A. Because that's the sound a viola makes when you step on it. Bratsche. And you are a Bratscher / Bratschist. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ > [...] > > > Q. Why is the viola called "Bratche" in German? > > A. Because that's the sound a viola makes when you step on it. > > Bratsche. And you are a Bratscher / Bratschist. Oops! -- and and me a _gebildeter Bratschist_[1], at that: able to make typing errors in four or five languages. [1] Does my _Sprachgefühl_ mislead me in suggesting that a _BratschistIn would be more likely to be judged _gebildet_ than a mere _Bratscher_? (I'm getting at something like the violinist/fiddler distinction in English.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> [...] >> >>> Q. Why is the viola called "Bratche" in German? >>> A. Because that's the sound a viola makes when you step on it. I just found the German version (which may be the source of the English riddle): --- Woher hat die Bratsche ihren Namen? --- Wenn man draufsteht, macht es "brratsch!" (Where does the "Bratsche" get its name from? If you stand/step on it, it goes "brratsch!") And another one (whence this animosity toward the viola and violists?): --- Worin besteht der Unterschied zwischen einer Zwiebel und einer Bratsche? --- Wenn man eine Bratsche zerhackt, weint keiner... (What's the difference between an onion and a viola? If you chop up a viola, nobody cries....) >> Bratsche. And you are a Bratscher / Bratschist. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mere _Bratscher_? (I'm getting at something like the violinist / > fiddler distinction in English.) 1) I had never heard or seen "Bratscher" and "Bratschist" before I consulted a German dictionary yesterday. 2) My first reaction was: A "Bratscher" is a male from a place called "Bratsch." 3) To me, "Bratscher" also *sounds* lower-class and "Bratschist" high-class. Thus, sprachgefühlswise, I agree with your analogy: fiddler : violinist :: Bratscher : Bratschist. 4) However, on a German website of jokes about musicians, I saw many jokes about violists, all called "Bratscher" (singular & plural), which apparently is the standard, neutral term: "Musiker Witze - Bratscher, Bassisten, Drummer..." http://www.familie-ahlers.de/witze/musiker.html 5) Nevertheless, in *my* book, you're a classy "Bratschist." On that website, I saw a brilliant joke full of puns and wordplays involving 12 composers: Ein Musiker will ein Zimmer mieten, aber die Vermieterin lehnte bei der Berufsangabe gleich ab: "Ich hatte schon einmal einen wie Sie. Zuerst war er sehr beethövlich, doch schnell wurde er mozärtlich zu meiner Tochter, brachte ihr einen Strauss mit, nahm sie beim Händel und führte sie mit Liszt über den Bach in die Haydn. Dann wurde er Reger und sagte: 'Frisch gewagnert ist halb gewonnen.' Er konnte sich nicht brahmsen und jetzt haben wir einen Mendelssohn und wissen nicht wo Hindemith." A few hints: beethövlich = Beethoven + höflich mozärtlich = Mozart + zärtlich Händel = diminutive of "Hand" Liszt = List Haydn = Heide gewagnert = Wagner + gewagt brahmsen = Brahms + bremsen Hindemith = hin damit [i.e., what to do with the son] -- ~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ Who loves the sounds of a _Fagott_ Mike Barnes: >> My first thought on seeing "violist da gamba" was that there can't be >> that many viola players *without* legs. Peter Duncanson: > And even fewer without arms. ObAdams: So they're not mostly armless? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "One thing that surprises you about this business msb@vex.net | is the surprises." -- Tim Baker > Mike Barnes: >>> My first thought on seeing "violist da gamba" was that there can't be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ObAdams: > So they're not mostly armless? But entirely unable to drink the coffee. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > Violist, one who plays the viol (i.e., viola da gamba), /'vaI@lIst/ > > Violist, one who plays the viola (i.e., alto/tenor violin), /vi'olIst/ > > Note, however that the "violist" "violist da gamba" (see .sig) usually gets > the first (/'vaI@lIst/) pronunciation. Well, that clears things up! (It will when I look at some pictures of these things to straighten out in my mind which one is which, anyway.) SignatureUnix is a user-friendly operating system. It's just very choosy about its friends. > Violist, one who plays the viol (i.e., viola da gamba), /'vaI@lIst/ > > Violist, one who plays the viola (i.e., alto/tenor violin), /vi'olIst/ > > Note, however that the "violist" "violist da gamba" (see .sig) usually gets > the first (/'vaI@lIst/) pronunciation. AIUI: The viola is in the violin family, between the violin and cello in size, is tuned in fifths, and is fretless. The "viola da gamba" is the same as the viol, which comes in different sizes, has frets, and is tuned more like a guitar. Right? SignatureIt is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste of the nation. (David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995) > > Violist, one who plays the viol (i.e., viola da gamba), /'vaI@lIst/ > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Right? Precisely. A couple of other salient differences are that the all viols are all played held more-or-less vertically (like a cello), and that the viol bow is held with the palm underneath the stick rather than over it as with the cello (or violin or viola). Implicit in the guitar-like tuning is that they normally have six (occasionally plus or minus one) strings rather than the four strings of the violin family. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> The "viola da gamba" is the same as the viol, which comes in >> different sizes, has frets, and is tuned more like a guitar. [snip] > Implicit in the guitar-like tuning is that they normally have six > (occasionally plus or minus one) strings rather than the four > strings of the violin family. How is that "implicit in the guitar-like tuning"? Two of my guitars have six strings and one has four. The last (tuned an octave below the lowest four strings of other two) has a tuning identical to the largest (commonly encountered) member of the violin family. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |He who will not reason, is a bigot; 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |he who cannot is a fool; and he who Palo Alto, CA 94304 |dares not is a slave. | Sir William Drummond kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> The "viola da gamba" is the same as the viol, which comes in > >> different sizes, has frets, and is tuned more like a guitar. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the lowest four strings of other two) has a tuning identical to the > largest (commonly encountered) member of the violin family. 1. By "guitar" one normally means an ordinary six-stringed guitar or some sort if the size or type is not further specified. You have to say or infer from context "bass guitar" or "twelve-string guitar" or "baroque guitar". Cf. "violin" (which defaults to "treble violin") or, indeed, "viola da gamba", which defaults to "bass viola da gamba". 2. That thing that you think is the largest member of the violin family isn't wholly a member of the family. It's half a viol, half a violin. "A hybrid--at least that's the polite word," if I recall Prof. Schickele's phraseology correctly. The tuning in fourths is one of its viol-like characteristics. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > 1. By "guitar" one normally means an ordinary six-stringed guitar or > some sort if the size or type is not further specified. You have to say > or infer from context "bass guitar" or "twelve-string guitar" or > "baroque guitar". But you also have to guess that "standard" guitar tuning is meant too. There are quite a number of different ways of tuning a guitar however many strings it has. SignatureRob Bannister > > 1. By "guitar" one normally means an ordinary six-stringed guitar or > > some sort if the size or type is not further specified. You have to say [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > There are quite a number of different ways of tuning a guitar however > many strings it has. Quite true. Incidentially, this is also true of viols. One 17th-century writer remarked (and the remark was picked up and used as the title of a 20th-century journal article about viol tunings) that "All ways have been tried to do it". SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >> But you also have to guess that "standard" guitar tuning is meant too. >> There are quite a number of different ways of tuning a guitar however [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the title of a 20th-century journal article about viol tunings) that >"All ways have been tried to do it". Most were found to be so useless that they were never mentioned again, inspiring a new phrase: "unspeakably viol"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Roland Hutchinson filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Most were found to be so useless that they were never mentioned again, inspiring > a new phrase: "unspeakably viol"....r A bass viol pun is the lowest form of musical humor[1]. So many people keep telling me to have a viol day, that I'm doing this: http://mysite.verizon.net/gambaguru/viol_day_flyer_2009.pdf [1] An early example is found in the title, "Captain Hume's Musicall Humors", of a collection ca. 1600 of music in tablature for viol in more than one tuning (but mostly in the "normal" one). Composed and published by one Capt. Tobias Hume (Army, Ret.) -- a bit of a character. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Roland Hutchinson filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Most were found to be so useless that they were never mentioned again, inspiring > a new phrase: "unspeakably viol"....r If you don't have an unspeakable viol, you can play the part instead on a mute cornett. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> >> The "viola da gamba" is the same as the viol, which comes in >> >> different sizes, has frets, and is tuned more like a guitar. >> > Implicit in the guitar-like tuning is that they normally have six >> > (occasionally plus or minus one) strings rather than the four [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or, indeed, "viola da gamba", which defaults to "bass viola da > gamba". I'm not sure what point you're making. I have an instrument that standardly has a guitar-like tuning. It has four strings. So six-stringedness wouldn't seem to be implicit in the tuning. Unless "having its strings tuned like the lowest four strings of a guitar, but an octave below" isn't sufficiently guitar-like. I'll grant that when extra high strings are added, this instrument does depart from guitar tuning by continuing to go in fourths to C and F rather than changing to a third and going to B before reverting to fourths and going to E like a guitar. But you've got me curious. Wikipedia says that "the standard tuning of the viol is in fourths, with a major third in the middle, leading to a tenor viol being tuned GCFADG with a "Renaissance tenor viol" being ADGBEA. I guess "fourths with a third somewhere" is guitar-like. > 2. That thing that you think is the largest member of the violin > family isn't wholly a member of the family. It's half a viol, half > a violin. "A hybrid--at least that's the polite word," if I recall > Prof. Schickele's phraseology correctly. The tuning in fourths is > one of its viol-like characteristics. And yet it has four strings. I figured that the tuning there was just to make it possible to play the thing. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied |around the neck. Police suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play... (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > But you've got me curious. Wikipedia says that "the standard tuning > of the viol is in fourths, with a major third in the middle, leading > to a tenor viol being tuned GCFADG with a "Renaissance tenor viol" > being ADGBEA. I guess "fourths with a third somewhere" is > guitar-like. Exactly. "Guitar-like", not "guitar-identical": six strings in fourths with a major third somewhere so that the top and bottom strings end up exactly a perfect fifteenth (two octaves) apart. > > 2. That thing that you think is the largest member of the violin > > family isn't wholly a member of the family. It's half a viol, half [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And yet it has four strings. I figured that the tuning there was just > to make it possible to play the thing. That is undoubtedly one reason why that particular viol-like feature was retained. Notwithstanding the difficulties that playing an instrument of that size tuned in fifths, a few present-day players _do_ use a tuning in fifths on the four-string bass, tuning it exactly an octave below the cello. They even have a web site and everything. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> How is that "implicit in the guitar-like tuning"? Two of my guitars >> have six strings and one has four. The last (tuned an octave below >> the lowest four strings of other two) has a tuning identical to the >> largest (commonly encountered) member of the violin family. > 2. That thing that you think is the largest member of the violin family > isn't wholly a member of the family. It's half a viol, half a violin. > "A hybrid--at least that's the polite word," if I recall Prof. > Schickele's phraseology correctly. The tuning in fourths is one of its > viol-like characteristics. Just to be clear, which instrument are you guys calling "the largest (commonly encountered) member of the violin family"? And what in the world are the even larger, uncommonly encountered members? Signaturehmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what happens. (Bryce Utting) >>> How is that "implicit in the guitar-like tuning"? Two of my guitars >>> have six strings and one has four. The last (tuned an octave below [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And what in the world are the even larger, uncommonly encountered > members? The largest (commonly encountered) member of the violin family is the bass (double bass, contrabass, upright bass). A larger, uncommonly encountered member of the violin family is the octobass: The octobass is an extremely large bowed string instrument constructed about 1850 in Paris by the French luthier Jean Baptiste Vuillaume (1798-1875). It has three strings and is essentially a larger version of the double bass (the specimen in the collection of the Musée de la Musique in Paris measures 3.48 meters in length, whereas a full size double bass is generally approximately 2 meters in length). Because of the impractically large size of its fingerboard and thickness of its strings, the strings were stopped by the use of an intricate system of hand- and foot-activated levers and pedals. The instrument was, in fact, so large that it took two musicians to play: one to bow and the other to control the "fingering," and was consequently never produced on a large scale or used much by composers (although Hector Berlioz wrote favorably about the instrument and proposed its widespread adoption). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octobass SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to display clothes aren't hired for Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired |for their resemblance to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger. (650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Just to be clear, which instrument are you guys calling "the largest >> (commonly encountered) member of the violin family"? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The largest (commonly encountered) member of the violin family is the > bass (double bass, contrabass, upright bass). That's what I thought. > A larger, uncommonly > encountered member of the violin family is the octobass: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > other to control the "fingering," and was consequently never > produced on a large scale I hadn't heard of that. I can understand why it hasn't caught on. Signaturehmmmm: sounds like the same DLL hell problem my cousin had. try deleting all DLLs in your Windows/system32 directory and see what happens. (Bryce Utting) > >> How is that "implicit in the guitar-like tuning"? Two of my guitars > >> have six strings and one has four. The last (tuned an octave below [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Just to be clear, which instrument are you guys calling "the largest > (commonly encountered) member of the violin family"? The Instrument Without One Name: the contrabass, string bass, double bass, bass fiddle, bass viol, stand-up bass, or bass. > And what in the world are the even larger, uncommonly encountered > members? The octobass (go see one at the Victoria and Albert Museum or at the Musée de la Musique in Paris) or the largest member of Carlene Hutchins's "New Violin" family, called (sigh!) the contrabass violin. Actually even just a "full size" contrabass is rarely encountered. The sizes normally played in orchestras are termed "seven-eighths" and "three-quarters". SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Just to be clear, which instrument are you guys calling "the largest >> (commonly encountered) member of the violin family"? > > The Instrument Without One Name: the contrabass, string bass, double > bass, bass fiddle, bass viol, stand-up bass, or bass. ITYM "Yet Another Instrument Without One Name". >> And what in the world are the even larger, uncommonly encountered >> members? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sizes normally played in orchestras are termed "seven-eighths" and > "three-quarters". Surely 7/8 and 3/4 of a double-bass should be 7/4-bass and 3/2-bass, respectively? But I suppose an octobass isn't 4×double-bass but just requires 8 limbs (2 musicians) to play. SignatureSteve: Now, okay. I did say that monkeys could program Visual Basic. Leo: But not that all Visual Basic programmers are monkeys. Steve: Exactly. [Security Now 194] >> Just to be clear, which instrument are you guys calling "the largest >> (commonly encountered) member of the violin family"? > > The Instrument Without One Name: the contrabass, string bass, double > bass, bass fiddle, bass viol, Hold it, isn't a "bass viol" the bass of the viol family, not the bass of the violin family? The Wikipedia "viol" article shows a large six-string fretted instrument, and the article and says that the bass viol is tuned DGCEAD, as opposed to the EADG of the double bass. > stand-up bass, or bass. Don't forget "bull fiddle". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |quite another to be willfully Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant | Cecil Adams kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> Just to be clear, which instrument are you guys calling "the largest > >> (commonly encountered) member of the violin family"? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > six-string fretted instrument, and the article and says that the bass > viol is tuned DGCEAD, as opposed to the EADG of the double bass. Properly speaking, that is indeed the bass viol that I know and love (and have made something of a modest career on). But unless you are sitting in a room full of viols (as, not coincidetally, I am at the moment), you don't dare use that name for it. I has not been so much skunked as perloined. As the bass viol proper faded into the twilight of musical history in the English-speaking lands, the name got attached to other instruments. In psalmody ("west gallery" music in Britain, Billings and his successors in America) "bass viol" was historically commonly used to refer to either a cello or a church bass. Otherwise, it's a common name for the stand-up bass to this very day. The principle at work here seems to have been that the name attached to whatever instrument filled the musical niche formerly occupied by the bass viola da gamba in England: the most common, everyday stringed instrument capable of playing a bass line and used by both amateur and professional musicians. > > stand-up bass, or bass. > > Don't forget "bull fiddle". And "dog-house". SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> The viola is in the violin family, between the violin and cello in >> size, is tuned in fifths, and is fretless. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > (occasionally plus or minus one) strings rather than the four strings of > the violin family. Thanks. Enjoy your dukedom! SignatureHistory teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. (Thurgood Marshall) > >> The viola is in the violin family, between the violin and cello in > >> size, is tuned in fifths, and is fretless. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thanks. Enjoy your dukedom! It's small, but we like it. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Found astride a group of digits, I'd assume it represented a repeating >> decimal....r and over a proposition, it would represent negation... >Which has gotten me thinking: > >Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" (as >the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? The division sign? Infinity? (unless you're limiting the question to operators). I can't think of many others, though computer scientists have cooked up things like ==, which I suppose has only one use. Katy >>> Found astride a group of digits, I'd assume it represented a repeating >>> decimal....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >operators). I can't think of many others, though computer scientists have >cooked up things like ==, which I suppose has only one use. It has only one use: to compare items to see whether they are equal in some sense. However the types of things that can be compared for equlity/sameness can be very different. The underlying implementation of i == j [comparing two numerical values for equality is very different from that of "abc" == "def" [comparing two strings of characters for sameness Because of the differences in implementation of == according to the nature of the things being compared the operator is considered to be overloaded. In its first sentence the Wikipedia article gives == as an example of an overloaded operator: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operator_overloading SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Roland Hutchinson: >> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" >> (as the computer-language folks say) with more than one meaning? Katy Edgcombe: > The division sign? If you mean "÷", that one was originally a minus sign and has been used with that meaning at least into the twentieth century, as I mentioned here about a month ago. > Infinity? Good one -- I think it qualifies. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "For want of a bit the loop was lost..." msb@vex.net -- Steve Summit My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader wrote, in <Q8SdnSHo36DUTc7XnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@vex.net> on Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:46:33 -0500: > Roland Hutchinson: > >> Is there any mathematical symbol that _isn't_ "semantically overloaded" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with that meaning at least into the twentieth century, as I mentioned > here about a month ago. Well into it. It was still taught when I was at school in the 1940s. > > Infinity? > > Good one -- I think it qualifies. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Mark Brader wrote, in <Q8SdnSHo36DUTc7XnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@vex.net> > on Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:46:33 -0500: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> with that meaning at least into the twentieth century, as I mentioned >> here about a month ago. I can't see the symbol you are talking about - I get a question mark. But if you mean the minus sign with dots above and below, that is news to me (if someone was being taught it in the 1940's, then I just missed it - I probably met my first mathematical notation around 1949. Of course, you could argue about the infinity symbol; it always means the same *sort* of thing, but its use for Mobius maps is not really the same as "as n tends to infinity". Katy ke10@cam.ac.uk wrote, in <h31tte$lr2$1@soup.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk> on Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:54:38 +0100 (BST): > >Mark Brader wrote, in <Q8SdnSHo36DUTc7XnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@vex.net> > > on Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:46:33 -0500: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > someone was being taught it in the 1940's, then I just missed it - I probably > met my first mathematical notation around 1949. That was the year I left school. > Of course, you could argue about the infinity symbol; it always means the same > *sort* of thing, but its use for Mobius maps is not really the same as "as n > tends to infinity". > > Katy SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Of course, you could argue about the infinity symbol; it always means the same >*sort* of thing, but its use for Mobius maps is not really the same as "as n >tends to infinity". There being more than one infinity. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>Of course, you could argue about the infinity symbol; it always means the same >>*sort* of thing, but its use for Mobius maps is not really the same as "as n >>tends to infinity". > >There being more than one infinity. An infinite number of them, in fact....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Nick Spalding wrote, in <61r855tgod11a0bfpvkldq1a81pgoikhu2@4ax.com> on Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:52:17 +0100: > Mark Brader wrote, in <Q8SdnSHo36DUTc7XnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@vex.net> > on Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:46:33 -0500: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Well into it. It was still taught when I was at school in the 1940s. And is still on all four of the calculators that I have within a few feet of me. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >Nick Spalding wrote, in <61r855tgod11a0bfpvkldq1a81pgoikhu2@4ax.com> > on Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:52:17 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >And is still on all four of the calculators that I have within a few >feet of me. So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That was the point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! It was being said above that it was used to mean "minus" into the 1940s. I find it very hard to believe that that usage has survived into the calculator age. There is a whoosh around somewhere, but I'm not quite certain where. Katy ke10@cam.ac.uk wrote, in <h327b6$alh$1@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk> on Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:35:34 +0100 (BST): > >Nick Spalding wrote, in <61r855tgod11a0bfpvkldq1a81pgoikhu2@4ax.com> > > on Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:52:17 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > There is a whoosh around somewhere, but I'm not quite certain where. Here probably, I misunderstood which meaning was supposed to have carried on into the 1900s. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That was the >point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! It was being >said above that it was used to mean "minus" into the 1940s. I find it >very hard to believe that that usage has survived into the calculator age. I began school in the 1940s, and it meant divide then. Maybe it's a pondian thing. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That was the >>point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! It was being [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I began school in the 1940s, and it meant divide then. Maybe it's >a pondian thing. I found one of those old pre-electronic pocket calculators in an antique store, and instead of the obelus, it seems to think a colon is the division symbol.... It works much like this one: http://www.thepcmuseum.net/comp_images/photo_ChadwickCalcthum.JPG ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Hatunen filted: >>> So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? >>> That was the point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > antique store, and instead of the obelus, it seems to think a colon > is the division symbol.... A colon indicates division is what I was taught in Europe, when I was still young and good-looking. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Hatunen filted: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >A colon indicates division is what I was taught in Europe, when I was still >young and good-looking. Attempting to figure out why leads me to ask if typewriters of the day were lacking a slash key? A colon looks somewhat like the slash, which is often used to indicate division. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >A colon indicates division is what I was taught in Europe, when I was still > >young and good-looking. > > Attempting to figure out why leads me to ask if typewriters of the day > were lacking a slash key? A colon looks somewhat like the slash, which > is often used to indicate division. A plausible conjecture, but, alas, entirely wrong. The colon has been used since time out of mind (long before typewriters were thought of) as a sign for proportion or ratio and (on the continent of Europe, after the distinction between proportion and division ceased to be thought of as important during the 18th century) for division. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> >A colon indicates division is what I was taught in Europe, when I was still >> >young and good-looking. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >of Europe, after the distinction between proportion and division ceased >to be thought of as important during the 18th century) for division. I see. It may well have crossed the pond at some stage, but I don't recall seeing the format in the American textbooks I used. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >> >A colon indicates division is what I was taught in Europe, when I was still > >> >young and good-looking. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > It may well have crossed the pond at some stage, but I don't recall > seeing the format in the American textbooks I used. No, you wouldn't find it in American books nor (as far as I know) in British ones either. I suppose I might have written "Continent" rather than "continent" -- I mean the place that gets cut off when there is fog in the Channel (or used to before the railroad came). SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > I suppose I might have written "Continent" rather than "continent" > -- I mean the place that gets cut off when there is fog in the Channel > (or used to before the railroad came). Must we now discuss the sex lives of railroads in this newsgroup? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Sex on trains, of course." msb@vex.net -- Clive Feather > > I suppose I might have written "Continent" rather than "continent" > > -- I mean the place that gets cut off when there is fog in the Channel > > (or used to before the railroad came). > > Must we now discuss the sex lives of railroads in this newsgroup? Passes the time, innit. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> >> >A colon indicates division is what I was taught in Europe, when I was still >> >> >young and good-looking. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >than "continent" -- I mean the place that gets cut off when there is fog >in the Channel (or used to before the railroad came). A practice in a land that far beyond the Pale would naturally slip my notice. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Hatunen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.thepcmuseum.net/comp_images/photo_ChadwickCalcthum.JPG In that lo-res photo I can't see any divide sign. In any case, a colon is used as what amounts to a divide sign when specifying ratios. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>Hatunen filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >colon is used as what amounts to a divide sign when specifying >ratios. Here's a better image, but I don't see a sign for division. http://www.gadgetvenue.com/magic-brain-calculator-built-a-long-long-time-ago-022 15530/ SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> Hatunen filted: >>>>> So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? >>>>> That was the point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > http://www.gadgetvenue.com/magic-brain-calculator-built-a-long-long-time-ago-022 15530/ I have my thinking cap off already, as I am about ready to go watch some TV, but I think that the sort of calculator shown is not able to perform division. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> Hatunen filted: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >but I think that the sort of calculator shown is not able to perform >division. The instruction sheet says it "Aids Division - Your Calculator will be of help to you in dividing. Because division makes use of the other calculating forms, use this instrument to perform all adding, subtracting, and multiplication operations. Use a side tally on paper to keep track of your work." What that means is beyond me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>I have my thinking cap off already, as I am about ready to go watch some TV, >>but I think that the sort of calculator shown is not able to perform [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What that means is beyond me. It means it can't perform division! You do your long division of 736297 by 173 on paper, but when you need to subtract some number of 173s from 736 you can use the calculator to do trial multiplication around 5, and then 4 to find out the next digit, and then to subtract 692 from 736. And so on. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>Hatunen filted: >>>>>So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That was the >>>>>point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! It was being [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >http://www.gadgetvenue.com/magic-brain-calculator-built-a-long-long-time-ago-022 15530/ Division isn't very easy to implement with mechanical calculators. When I was quite young in the 1940s my mother worked in an office that had electro-mechanical desk calculators that could do division. I would meet ehr there on Saturday mornings and then we would go out to lunch. I was fascinated by these machines which had digit wheels on a movable carriage, and as it performed division the carriage would jump left or right one space with a quite loud noise. I finally tried dividing by zero. The machine began grinding and jumping and grinding and jumping and I soon realized it was not going to stop. I pulled the plug thinking that on Monday someone would plug it in and would know how to stop it. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>> Hatunen filted: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > stop. I pulled the plug thinking that on Monday someone would > plug it in and would know how to stop it. There was still one of those in our department at Lockheed in 1962, or so. It was a Friden. It looked something like this: http://home.vicnet.net.au/~wolff/calculators/Friden/FridenSVE-819-IMG_2682-5.jpg As I recall, unplugging it clears it (after trying to divide by zero). SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Division isn't very easy to implement with mechanical > calculators. When I was quite young in the 1940s my mother worked [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > stop. I pulled the plug thinking that on Monday someone would > plug it in and would know how to stop it. That's a great story! (And a different twist on the name "halting problem".) SignatureLeila: "I don't think he knows." Agent Rogersz: "Increase the voltage." Leila: "What if he's innocent?" Agent Rogersz: "No one is innocent. Proceed" (Cox 1984) Katy Edgecombe: >> So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That >> was the point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! >> It was being said above that it was used to mean "minus" into the 1940s. >> I find it very hard to believe that that usage has survived into >> the calculator age. Dave Hatunen: > I began school in the 1940s, and it meant divide then. Maybe it's > a pondian thing. No; as Noel said, it's a northern European thing. I never said it was used as a minus sign in English-speaking countries. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Remember that computers are very, msb@vex.net very fast..." -- Steve Summit >>So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That was the >>point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! It was being [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I began school in the 1940s, and it meant divide then. Maybe it's >a pondian thing. So did I, and "÷" meant and means divide here, too, but probably mainly for numerical arithmetic. When we started learning about basic equations we got used to "/". SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? That was the >>> point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in use! It was being [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mainly for numerical arithmetic. When we started learning about basic > equations we got used to "/". I don't remember using / signs at school. If equations included divisors, they were written like fractions with a straight, horizontal line. SignatureRob Bannister <ke10@cam.ac.uk> wrote... > So on the calculators you have, does that key divide or subtract? > That was the point - nobody is disputing that the sign is still in > use! It was being said above that it was used to mean "minus" > into the 1940s. I find it very hard to believe that that usage > has survived into the calculator age. I'm surprised that none of our continental friends has turned up to point out that ÷ (which Unicode calls "division sign") and its variant ./. are still used over there to mean 'minus' - at least in those northerly parts of Europe I've frequented in recent years. The use of the colon : to indicate division is dying out, though, in favour of the solidus / or possibly the 'fraction slash' / (Unicode 2044). I'm not sure how one is supposed to differentiate between these last two if they were both to appear in the same text. SignatureNoel >favour of the solidus / or possibly the 'fraction slash' / (Unicode >2044). I'm not sure how one is supposed to differentiate between >these last two if they were both to appear in the same text. You missed U+2215 DIVISION SLASH, which is (apparently) supposed to be the mathematical operator. There's also U+2236 RATIO for the "colon", and U+0338 COMBINING LONG SOLIDUS OVERLAY. The code chart describes U+2044 FRACTION SLASH as "for composing arbitrary fractions". The same section of the code chart lists U+2052 COMMERCIAL MINUS SIGN for the northern and eastern European "./." glyph. The "Misc. Math Symbols B" region includes U+29F8 BIG SOLIDUS. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman wrote... >>favour of the solidus / or possibly the 'fraction slash' / >>(Unicode 2044). I'm not sure how one is supposed to differentiate [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "./." glyph. The "Misc. Math Symbols B" region includes U+29F8 > BIG SOLIDUS. Thank you, Garrett. My quick and easy source was the Windows Character Map, set to look in Arial Unicode MS - except that it wasn't. I had clearly changed the default to some other less comprehensive font. Even so, having now checked Arial Unicode, I am surprised to see that U2052 is not there. It is many times more common than most of the more esoteric maths symbols and is widely used by ordinary people, also for non-mathematical purposes. A non-professional proof-reader might use it, for example, instead of a squiggly 'dl' (which I couldn't find, either). SignatureNoel > I'm surprised that none of our continental friends has turned up to > point out that ÷ (which Unicode calls "division sign") and its [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 2044). I'm not sure how one is supposed to differentiate between > these last two if they were both to appear in the same text. The colon is still used for map scales (e.g., "1:25,000"). Do they still use ":" and "::" in those proportion-shaped verbal questions on SAT tests? Signature() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments >> I'm surprised that none of our continental friends has turned up to >> point out that ÷ (which Unicode calls "division sign") and its [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >still use ":" and "::" in those proportion-shaped verbal questions on >SAT tests? I thought I might have seen it for division, but could not remember where, yesterday. Thank you for jogging the memory. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Nick wrote on Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:15:26 +0100: >> Mark Brader wrote, in >> <Q8SdnSHo36DUTc7XnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@vex.net> on Tue, 07 Jul [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> Well into it. It was still taught when I was at school in >> the 1940s. > And is still on all four of the calculators that I have within > a few feet of me. My trusty HP35s calculator uses the ones that I think of as standard including the dotted minus for divide (and x, + and - ) but I can't insert it into this post. Interestingly enough, the Windows calculator uses / and * for divide and multiply by. As an OT observation, I have been rather enjoying refreshing my memories of Reverse Polish Notation (RPN) with the HP35s calculator, which will work in either RPN or more standard notation. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Nick wrote on Wed, 08 Jul 2009 14:15:26 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >of Reverse Polish Notation (RPN) with the HP35s calculator, which will >work in either RPN or more standard notation. American students often called the standard notation TI notation in the early days of the hand calculator. TI, for Texas Instrument, and HP, for Hewlett Packard, were early competitors. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Found astride a group of digits, I'd assume it represented a repeating >>> decimal....r [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > operators). I can't think of many others, though computer scientists have > cooked up things like ==, which I suppose has only one use. Not at all. I'm pretty sure that the QL SuperBasic interpreter used == to mean "equal to, or very nearly". SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> Nick Atty: >>> Does anyone still do that thing where you draw a line over the top [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Such bars usually have some special meaning -- especially, some kind >of aveage. Average is what comes to my mind. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > If you go back a few generations, the English were using . (on the line) for > multiplication and � (centered) for the decimal point; the reverse was > probably viewed as an Americanism. I've seen the second thing (even recently, I think) but not the first. I'd expect "3�6" to work as a decimal and "3 � 6" as multiplication. SignatureSome say the world will end in fire; some say in segfaults. [XKCD 312] Roland Hutchinson: >> If you go back a few generations, the English were using . (on the line) for >> multiplication and · (centered) for the decimal point; the reverse was >> probably viewed as an Americanism. Adam Funk: > I'd expect "3·6" to work as a decimal and "3 · 6" as multiplication. Eeek! That might be safe in a monospaced font, but I can just see some book publisher narrowing the interword spaces down to where "3 · 6" can be misread as "3·6". SignatureMark Brader "The design of the lowercase e in text faces Toronto produces strong feelings (or should do so)." msb@vex.net -- Walter Tracy > Adam Funk skrev: >> (Of course, I'd also eradicate the British custom of using "." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That is German (and Danish) notation as well. We have an ambiguity here: 'times' as (/klokkeslæt/) times of day and 'times' (/gange/) indicating multiplication. Your example is the second sort, which others have remarked on. Adam was talking about the first sort. There is a frowned-upon verb used by some schoolchildren and probably others - "to times", meaning to multiply. Please forget you ever heard about it. SignatureNoel > Adam Funk skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > appointment. But we might as well say "Two thirty in the > afternoon". It seems fairly normal in German to hear "vierzehn Uhr" for 14:00, but you will never hear "halb vierzehn" for 13:30. So I suppose that the 24 hour clock still feels like official timetable speech where the minutes have to be numbered exactly, while in informal speech the halves and quarters may be used with less precision. I still chuckle when I hear our English-speaking kids tell me it's "one forty-seven" instead of "about quarter to two". SignatureRob Bannister > I still chuckle when I hear our English-speaking kids tell me it's "one > forty-seven" instead of "about quarter to two". Then the judge asked, "What on earth is a digital watch?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPz24QYH2W8 SignatureNo right of private conversation was enumerated in the Constitution. I don't suppose it occurred to anyone at the time that it could be prevented. [Whitfield Diffie] >> I still chuckle when I hear our English-speaking kids tell me it's "one >> forty-seven" instead of "about quarter to two". > >Then the judge asked, "What on earth is a digital watch?" > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPz24QYH2W8 Oh yes. <chuckle> SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Adam Funk filted: >> I still chuckle when I hear our English-speaking kids tell me it's "one >> forty-seven" instead of "about quarter to two". > >Then the judge asked, "What on earth is a digital watch?" > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPz24QYH2W8 Interestingly, Mr Atkinson also figures in one of my own stories of technology getting ahead of someone...my father told me, circa 1995, that he had gone into a record store and asked the slack-jawed yoof working there where they kept the LPs...sensing no recognition of the term whatsoever, he tried a few synonyms: "albums? 33s?"...finally something clicked and the saleskid said "oh, *vinyl*! they don't make that any more".... I related this story to the request line at the Dr Demento show shortly thereafter, by way of asking to hear something for which I knew neither title nor artist, but I knew it was spoken word, featured two British men, and concerned trying to buy a "gramophone" in a stereo shop...the bit, as most of you have already guessed, was from "Not the Nine O'Clock News".... (I requested it in February, with no particular occasion in mind...Dr Demento played it on my birthday in April, mentioning my name in his introduction, and followed it with two songs about birthdays)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Interestingly, Mr Atkinson also figures in one of my own stories of technology > getting ahead of someone...my father told me, circa 1995, that he had gone into > a record store and asked the slack-jawed yoof working there where they kept the > LPs...sensing no recognition of the term whatsoever, he tried a few synonyms: > "albums? 33s?"...finally something clicked and the saleskid said "oh, *vinyl*! > they don't make that any more".... I think the White Stripes insist that all their works are released on vinyl as well as CD. I've bought a few records in the past few years, but all secondhand, either for the album art (_Thick as a Brick_) or because they have never been re-released digitally (two Stevens & Grdnic albums). SignatureLeila: "I don't think he knows." Agent Rogersz: "Increase the voltage." Leila: "What if he's innocent?" Agent Rogersz: "No one is innocent. Proceed" (Cox 1984) Adam Funk filted: >>Interestingly, Mr Atkinson also figures in one of my own stories of technology >>getting ahead of someone...my father told me, circa 1995, that he had gone into [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I think the White Stripes insist that all their works are released on >vinyl as well as CD. I don't think they were insisting that in 1995.... >I've bought a few records in the past few years, but all secondhand, >either for the album art (_Thick as a Brick_) or because they have >never been re-released digitally (two Stevens & Grdnic albums). I'm usually in the second category...it seems unlikely that we'll *ever* see CD versions of Grace Slick's "Dreams" or the First Edition's "Ballad of Calico" (two I already *had* in vinyl) in our lifetime....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> I still chuckle when I hear our English-speaking kids tell me it's >> "one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPz24QYH2W8 Omygud, milud. It's Mr Bean! Pat Durkin filted: >>> I still chuckle when I hear our English-speaking kids tell me it's >>> "one [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Omygud, milud. It's Mr Bean! Though he bears a striking resemblance to that Johnny English person....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Pat Durkin filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Though he bears a striking resemblance to that Johnny English person....r Other than the movie, which I assume many U.S. members have seen, are Mr Bean skits often aired in America? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Pat Durkin filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> Though he bears a striking resemblance to that Johnny English >> person....r I never heard of the Johnny English stuff. Have to wait a few years before regular channels pick it up, I suppose. > Other than the movie, which I assume many U.S. members have seen, are > Mr Bean skits often aired in America? I think there were a couple of movies, but I don't go to the theater. There was a TV series on Mr. Bean about 20 years ago or so, shown on PBS (public broadcasting system), and, shown more recently, the BBCA television with Blackadder. I guess Blackadder is older than Mr Bean. And I never saw Not the Nine O'Clock News, which was older than that. Oh, and I can't recall what US company channel broadcast The Thin Blue Line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_Atkinson >>> Pat Durkin filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I never heard of the Johnny English stuff. Have to wait a few years > before regular channels pick it up, I suppose. It's a film - spoof James Bond. I believe it came about after Atkinson made a series of Barclaycard adverts in which he played an incompetent secret agent, travelling abroad with his trusty credit card. >> Other than the movie, which I assume many U.S. members have seen, are >> Mr Bean skits often aired in America? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Oh, and I can't recall what US company channel broadcast The Thin Blue > Line. That is timeless British sitcom. Ben Elton said that he based it loosely on Dad's Army. SignatureDavid > > Other than the movie, which I assume many U.S. members have seen, are > > Mr Bean skits often aired in America? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (public broadcasting system), and, shown more recently, the BBCA > television with Blackadder. I guess Blackadder is older than Mr Bean. When you saw them depends on where in the US you were, since the BBC and its American distributors customarily sells the program to individual stations rather than to networks. Mr. Bean has certainly been rebroadcast much more recently than 20 years ago by public TV stations in the New York City television market. We've also recently had a slightly re-edited and dubbed version on one of the Spanish-language stations. (I find that Mr. Bean fits in quite well in the company of western-hemisphere Spanish-language TV and movie comic characters.) > Oh, and I can't recall what US company channel broadcast The Thin Blue > Line We've had it more than once on a couple of the local PBS affiliates; in fact we're getting it again (or have just recently finished it) now. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >Mr. Bean has certainly been rebroadcast much more recently than 20 years >ago by public TV stations in the New York City television market. We've >also recently had a slightly re-edited and dubbed version on one of the >Spanish-language stations. (I find that Mr. Bean fits in quite well in >the company of western-hemisphere Spanish-language TV and movie comic >characters.) I consider Mr Bean an inferior descendant of Charlie Chaplin's little tramp, by way of Monsieur Hulot and Ernie Kovacs's "Eugene"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Roland Hutchinson filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I consider Mr Bean an inferior descendant of Charlie Chaplin's little tramp, by > way of Monsieur Hulot and Ernie Kovacs's "Eugene"....r Yes, I think they all have relatives south of the border. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I consider Mr Bean an inferior descendant of Charlie Chaplin's little tramp, by >way of Monsieur Hulot and Ernie Kovacs's "Eugene"....r Do many women enjoy the humour of "Mr Bean"? My anecdotal evidence only is the answer is that, as with "Laurel and Hardy", few do. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Do many women enjoy the humour of "Mr Bean"? My anecdotal evidence >only is the answer is that, as with "Laurel and Hardy", few do. One hand goes up. Much more than I enjoy L and H. Katy >> Do many women enjoy the humour of "Mr Bean"? My anecdotal evidence >> only is the answer is that, as with "Laurel and Hardy", few do. > > One hand goes up. Much more than I enjoy L and H. Me too. I have never found L & H funny. But I do think Mr Bean can be patchy and, at the extreme, excruciating rather than funny. (I once sat next to R Atkinson at a hilarious performance by the Reduced Shakespeare Company in their early heyday. He never even smiled and got up and left at the interval which I found odd.) Jacques Tati is much funnier, though. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >Roland Hutchinson filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Do many women enjoy the humour of "Mr Bean"? My anecdotal evidence > only is the answer is that, as with "Laurel and Hardy", few do. My anecdotes seem to run the opposite direction from yours: My wife is, if anything, a bigger fan of the _hominis qui est faba_ than I am. We were first introduced to Mr Bean on the tele by the young daughter of a British musical colleague. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >Do many women enjoy the humour of "Mr Bean"? My anecdotal evidence >only is the answer is that, as with "Laurel and Hardy", few do. My wife does. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>Do many women enjoy the humour of "Mr Bean"? My anecdotal evidence >>only is the answer is that, as with "Laurel and Hardy", few do. > >My wife does. I suspect humour may be hard to come by in South Africa these days. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I consider Mr Bean an inferior descendant of Charlie Chaplin's little > tramp, by way of Monsieur Hulot and Ernie Kovacs's "Eugene"....r I liked Kovacs's "Percy", but can't recall the character's surname. Modeled after Wilde or someone like that. I didn't know "Eugene". (But I can't say Atkinson's Bean is inferior. Rather, I would say, of the same school, perhaps. The "nearly a mime" school.) (Just watched a version of "Brideshead Revisited", and the sycophant who more or less represented Flyte's groupies was another of those, though much suppressed. Actually, an earlier production, with about 6 installments, had a fierce stereotype of the "nancy" persona: thick glasses, spitcurls, lisp, and, flourishing an extremely long cigarette holder. I don't know if John Hurt was Sebastian, and don't recall who played Charles Ryder in that earlier production, either.) This version had Jeremy Irons as Charles Ryder and Anthony Edwards as Sebastian. But I think the info was in error. >I liked Kovacs's "Percy", but can't recall the character's surname. >Modeled after Wilde or someone like that. "Dovetonsils", I believe. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>I liked Kovacs's "Percy", but can't recall the character's surname. >>Modeled after Wilde or someone like that. > > "Dovetonsils", I believe. That's it. And, having reviewed my description of the character and its avatar, I realize that Tennesee Williams was the more apt inspiration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_Williams Good picture, but no specs. >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >had Jeremy Irons as Charles Ryder and Anthony Edwards as Sebastian. But >I think the info was in error. Many comedians use cruelty to evoke a laugh, when they can find no other way. One reason I can sit back, relax and enjoy Laurel and Hardy and Charlie Chaplain from years ago and Mr Bean today is that, since the joke is usually on themselves in the end, they are never offensive and sometimes uproariously funny, at least to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Many comedians use cruelty to evoke a laugh, when they can find no >other way. One reason I can sit back, relax and enjoy Laurel and Hardy >and Charlie Chaplain from years ago and Mr Bean today is that, since >the joke is usually on themselves in the end, they are never offensive >and sometimes uproariously funny, at least to me. It has been said that all humor is base on a sort of cruelty. We laugh at the hitting of one clown by another's slapstick. We laugh when someone slips on a banana peel. We laugh when a pompous person gets a come-uppance from our bedraggled hero. Consider the indignities suffered upon Margaret Dumont by Groucho Marx. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>Many comedians use cruelty to evoke a laugh, when they can find no >>other way. One reason I can sit back, relax and enjoy Laurel and Hardy [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Consider the indignities suffered upon Margaret Dumont by Groucho > Marx. Or the postman and sundry others by the Bookay woman. [...] > I liked Kovacs's "Percy", but can't recall the character's surname. Dovetonsils. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ > I liked Kovacs's "Percy" TMI! SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> I liked Kovacs's "Percy" > > TMI! What does TMI! mean? Sorry to need a translation. And, while Hatunen and Rey both provided the surname (Dovetonsils--thanks!) I see that I was inconsistent in my formation of the possessive. Normally I would have typed "Kovacs' ". ( I suppose I am the only one who puts a space between the apostrophe and the quotation marks.) Being more concerned with spelling, though, I see I adopted R H's possessive form...not to regurgitate another bimonthly conversation. Pat Durkin filted: >>> I liked Kovacs's "Percy" >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Being more concerned with spelling, though, I see I adopted R H's >possessive form...not to regurgitate another bimonthly conversation. Unlike a lot of proper names ending in S, "Kovacs" is neither a plural nor a possessive...it's simply Hungarian for "Smith"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? On 12 Jul 2009, Pat Durkin wrote >>> I liked Kovacs's "Percy" >> >> TMI! > What does TMI! mean? Sorry to need a translation. "Too much information." SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >> Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is not >> much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on that, please? > >Well, I live and work in Bristol in south west England, and, as far as >I know, we are in the English speaking world, But is Bristol "much of the English-speaking world"? America and Canada are much more of the English-speaking world than Bristol or south west England (or all of England, for that matter) and we don't use 24-hour time much. >and the 24 hour clock is >pretty universal for official and work-related purposes and where >ambiguity or vagueness is to be avoided. Troglodytes taht we are, we use am and pm instead of 24-hour. (Like when the mid year >moment occurs in a leap year maybe?) I take the 08.25 train to work, I >sign in at around 08.55, I spend all day working with times in 24 hour >format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to record Corrie >from 19:30 to 20:00. I'm not sure my recorders can be set to 24-hour time. It would be handy in some ways, since I'm never sure on a particular recorder whether 12 midnight is of the day before or the day after, and whether I should set the recorder for 12 am or 12 pm. I usually fudge and set it for 11:59pm or 12:01am. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to record Corrie >>from 19:30 to 20:00. > > I'm not sure my recorders can be set to 24-hour time. I'd be surprised if they couldn't, if they're at all customizable. I don't think I've seen one that couldn't go either way in quite a while. > It would be handy in some ways, since I'm never sure on a particular > recorder whether 12 midnight is of the day before or the day after, > and whether I should set the recorder for 12 am or 12 pm. I usually > fudge and set it for 11:59pm or 12:01am. Have you ever seen a device that didn't consider 12:00 to be of the same day (and the same am/pm marking) as the 12:01 that follows a minute later? I don't believe I have. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I need to get a new colander. My 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |old one has holes in it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to record Corrie >>>from 19:30 to 20:00. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >same day (and the same am/pm marking) as the 12:01 that follows a >minute later? I don't believe I have. I think you're right. But I find myself unsure of which it is, so I fudge. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>Have you ever seen a device that didn't consider 12:00 to be of the >>same day (and the same am/pm marking) as the 12:01 that follows a >>minute later? I don't believe I have. > > I think you're right. But I find myself unsure of which it is, so > I fudge. If so, you're in good company. Railway and airline timetables never use 0000 - it's always 2359 or 0001, even on a clockface timetable where the other departures are at xx00. Regards Jonathan >> Only in places where they "usually" use the 24-hour clock, which is not >> much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on that, please? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > format, I go home on the 16:46 train. I set my VCR to record Corrie > from 19:30 to 20:00. I really do seem to be completely ambivalent about it. Sitting at the computer here, without moving or changing windows: The PVR over across the room says "21:30", the clock on the mantlepiece has no numbers, but one hand points sideways and one down. The display at the top right of the computer says "9:31:08" and the bit of Thunderbird I can see exposed to the right of the window I'm typing in shows emails with the last received at "20:58". I'd not even noticed the mixed nature of this until I thought about it for this post. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > Berkeley Brett: >> > By the way, Happy Mid-Year Day! The exact middle moment of the year [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > much of the English-speaking world. Can we avoid a thread on that, > please? In a word, no. In two words, probably not. In three words, not b****y likely. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.