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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Till death do us apart
When I came across the phrase "Till death do us apart" for the second time within a few weeks I decided to check Google to see how common it is. Of course, I didn't know that it was the title of a romantic TV series and a Madonna song: "She's had enough, she says the end But she'll come back, she knows it then A chance to start it all again Till death do us apart" Is it a deliberate rewrite of "Till death do us part/Till death us do part", or is it a misunderstanding of an archaic syntactic construction?  SignatureJames > When I came across the phrase "Till death do us apart" for the > second time within a few weeks I decided to check Google to see [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > James I have had trouble finding a reliable source, but I have always assumed the verb "to apart" was an obsolete equivalent of "to part". However - a number of Spanish dictionaries give the verb "to apart" (as well as "to dismantle") as English equivalents of desmontar. In patent applications and scientific descriptions "aparted" seems to be a synonym for "separated". It seems to occur a lot in optics. "where the portion faces to the first lens holding member and is aparted from an optical axis by a predetermined distance" "plane is aparted from the centre by focal length f" "far aparted from polymer surface" contrex set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: >> When I came across the phrase "Till death do us apart" for the >> second time within a few weeks I decided to check Google to see [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "aparted" seems to be a synonym for "separated". It seems to occur a > lot in optics. The original use of "till death us do part" (sic) comes from the marriage service in the Book of Common Prayer, as part of the vows taken by both partners to each other. This reflects the Church's position that death alone - and not the pronouncement of any earthly magistrate - can release one from marriage vows and leave the surviving partner free to marry again if he/she wishes. I've never known "apart" as a v.tr. Always "to take apart", with "dismantle" being reserved for situations where reassembly at a later date would occur (or was at least contemplated). It might well be obsolete, but I can't recall any instances in e.g. KJV, Shakespeare or even Spenser so it must pre-date those great stabilising influences on English since the turn of the 16th/17th centuries. And I wouldn't describe the TV series (not the British one anyway) as a "romantic" comedy - it was anything but. The character of Alf Garnett has become proverbial for a bigot, and the catchphrase "you silly moo" became a common insult at the time (late 1960's to early 1970's). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Death_Us_Do_Part (Apologies to contrex - I might have pressed the wrong button and sent the above as a personal email.) Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply Quoth Prai Jei <pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>, and I quote: >contrex set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >continuum: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >And I wouldn't describe the TV series (not the British one anyway) as >a "romantic" comedy - it was anything but. Nor would I. But I wasn't referring to "Till Death Us Do Part". My reference was to this oriental thing: http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Till_Death_Do_Us_Apart >The character of Alf Garnett has >become proverbial for a bigot, and the catchphrase "you silly moo" became a >common insult at the time (late 1960's to early 1970's). >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Death_Us_Do_Part I think someone somewhere has misinterpreted the auxiliary + infinitive in "do part" as a phrase "do apart" meaning "to separate". SignatureJames James Hogg set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: >>And I wouldn't describe the TV series (not the British one anyway) as >>a "romantic" comedy - it was anything but. > > Nor would I. But I wasn't referring to "Till Death Us Do Part". > My reference was to this oriental thing: > http://wiki.d-addicts.com/Till_Death_Do_Us_Apart I think it's nothing more than a simple case of Lost In Translation. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply Quoth Prai Jei <pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>, and I quote: >James Hogg set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >continuum: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I think it's nothing more than a simple case of Lost In Translation. Or it could be inspired by the Madonna song, if that came first. Anyway, the phrase seems to be spreading. I have had to correct it in one text I've edited. SignatureJames > When I came across the phrase "Till death do us apart" for the > second time within a few weeks I decided to check Google to see [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > James In Madonna's song perhaps it's just a prosodic requirement. As a song versifier I'm sure you're familiar with stretching some words or abbreviating others, as the prosody demands. > In Madonna's song perhaps it's just a prosodic requirement. As a song > versifier I'm sure you're familiar with stretching some words or > abbreviating others, as the prosody demands. In which case she could have further reworded it to, say, "Till Death Put us Apart", which has the benefit of also bein English. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >When I came across the phrase "Till death do us apart" for the >second time within a few weeks I decided to check Google to see [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >us do part", or is it a misunderstanding of an archaic syntactic >construction? Perhaps for copyright reasons, as "Till death us do part" with Alf Garnett the Pommie bigot and his randy Scouse git son-in-law was hardly romantic. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Quoth Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com>, and I quote: >>When I came across the phrase "Till death do us apart" for the >>second time within a few weeks I decided to check Google to see [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Perhaps for copyright reasons, as "Till death us do part" with Alf Garnett the >Pommie bigot and his randy Scouse git son-in-law was hardly romantic. Yet another person thinks I was was referring to the Alf Garnett comedy when I alluded to the romantic comedy "Till Death Do Us Apart" (note the last word - I was referring to the new variant of the phrase). Anyway, can one copyright a phrase in the marriage ceremony? SignatureJames >Quoth Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Apart" (note the last word - I was referring to the new variant >of the phrase). No, I didn't think you were referring to it. I was suggesting that the romantic one may have changed the wording of the title because they anticipated copyright difficulties. >Anyway, can one copyright a phrase in the marriage ceremony? No, but I think you can copyright the title of a TV series, even if it does consist of a well-known phrase. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>Anyway, can one copyright a phrase in the marriage ceremony? > > No, but I think you can copyright the title of a TV series, even if > it does consist of a well-known phrase. Not in the US, at least, you can't. Titles are not subject to copyright, although they may be considered trademarks. I believe that this is common to all countries that are signatories to the Berne Convention, and apparently it holds at least in the UK: The short answer is to simply say that names, titles, short phrases, (and also colours), are not considered unique or substantial enough to be awarded copyright protection in their own right http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p18_copyright_names SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>Anyway, can one copyright a phrase in the marriage ceremony? >> >> No, but I think you can copyright the title of a TV series, even if >> it does consist of a well-known phrase. > The short answer is to simply say that names, titles, short > phrases, (and also colours), are not considered unique or > substantial enough to be awarded copyright protection in their own > right Oh well, that explanation doesn't account for it then. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Quoth Steve Hayes <hayesmstw@hotmail.com>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Anyway, can one copyright a phrase in the marriage ceremony? As far as I know (and for a certainty under US law) one can't copyright the title of a work, whether or not it appears in the marriage ceremony. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) |
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