 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Toweling
Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her that the men's room was out of toweling until she finally asked, "Do you mean it's out of paper towels?" Yes, that's what I meant. But I've used the word "toweling" all my life and last night was the first time it came to my attention that it might not be part of everyone's vocabulary. Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. Well, I've never come across it in that context. My friend Lori from California says she has heard it used there. I expect you know that (with two 'l's in BrE) in drapers terminology, "toweling" means a type of cloth, sold by length, that (guess what?) towels, bathrobes (dressing gowns) etc are made out of. If the server was aware of the more common meaning, I suppose she may have had trouble relating that to those awful paper things one is often forced to use nowadays. > Well, I've never come across it in that context. My friend Lori from > California says she has heard it used there. I expect you know that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more common meaning, I suppose she may have had trouble relating that > to those awful paper things one is often forced to use nowadays. You may think they're awful but they're a hell of a lot better than those blower things. And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit.  SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. If I were paranoid about "germs", like my mother was, I suppose I might. > > And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. > > If I were paranoid about "germs", like my mother was, I suppose I > might. If you were to observe who did what and didn't wash his hands before using that handle you might want to give the matter some thought. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If you were to observe who did what and didn't wash his hands before > using that handle you might want to give the matter some thought. What you don't know won't hurt you, even if it seems unsanitary. It will help build up your body's resistance to things. I have never avoided touching public bathroom door knobs and the like. I don't remember ever catching anything from that. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I have never avoided touching public bathroom door knobs and the like. I >don't remember ever catching anything from that. If you believe the media hype of a few weeks ago, you will catch swine flu and die. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I have never avoided touching public bathroom door knobs and the like. I > don't remember ever catching anything from that. How would you have known if you did? I'm reminded of a vignette on the TV show "Hill Street Blues". The police captain and the sleazy lawyer are using the urinals when the lawyer remarks about how much it hurts to do that, then without washing his hands offers to shake hands with the police captain. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > How would you have known if you did? Hmm. Good thing I never caught anything from anywhere. Not in decades. Oh, other than the occasional cold, but that can come from anywhere, and a drop in resistance, for whatever reason, allows it to latch on. All the hand washing in the world won't stop it from doing that. > I'm reminded of a vignette on the TV show "Hill Street Blues". The > police captain and the sleazy lawyer are using the urinals when the > lawyer remarks about how much it hurts to do that, then without > washing his hands offers to shake hands with the police captain. Yeah, but that wasn't in real life. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I have never avoided touching public bathroom door knobs and the like. > I don't remember ever catching anything from that. I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo door knobs and the like. Who does that? SignatureDavid a new Hilton >>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo door > knobs and the like. Who does that? Er, me, when I can. I don't like warm air dryers either (apart from the brilliant Dyson ones which really do dry your hands). I carry a little bottle of anti-bacterial hand gel about with me. I'm not paranoid about germs but I am careful. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > bottle of anti-bacterial hand gel about with me. I'm not paranoid about > germs but I am careful. There you go - I do know somebody who does that. SignatureDavid a new Hilton > >> I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo > >> door knobs and the like. Who does that? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > There you go - I do know somebody who does that. Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the paper towels women have used to grasp the doorhandles. In the not-as-nice restrooms, if there isn't a trash can there will often be a pile of used paper towels on the floor. SignatureSML >>>> I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo >>>> door knobs and the like. Who does that? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > restrooms, if there isn't a trash can there will often be a pile of > used paper towels on the floor. I know I have mentioned a former co-worker before -- he grabbed the bathroom door by the vents near its bottom to pull it open (to get out). He was a bit weird in a few other ways too. Oh yeah, the bathroom door had its latch disabled, so one did not have to twist any knobs. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo >>>> door knobs and the like. Who does that? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > restrooms, if there isn't a trash can there will often be a pile of used > paper towels on the floor. With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. My observations suggest that few women are as fussy as I am. Swine flu has raised consciousness a bit: yesterday I noticed a male colleague cover his hand with his jacket before grabbing the outside door handle of the building in which his office is located. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. Are those the warm air dryers that blow hard enough that you feel like you've put your hand underneath a jet engine or the warm air dryers that result in you ending up drying your hands on your clothing? Those seem to be the only options around here, and I've only run into the former kind a couple of times. Air dryers were big around here in the '70s, but they've largely been replaced by paper towels. The newest trick is for the dispensers to spit out a length of towel when you wave your hand in front of a sensor, so you don't have to touch anything but the towel you're going to use. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Other computer companies have spent 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |15 years working on fault-tolerant Palo Alto, CA 94304 |computers. Microsoft has spent |its time more fruitfully, working kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |on fault-tolerant *users*. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms > >> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Are those the warm air dryers that blow hard enough that you feel like > you've put your hand underneath a jet engine I didn't know there were such things. > or the warm air dryers > that result in you ending up drying your hands on your clothing? These are the only ones I've ever seen. I even remember seeing a cartoon about this. > Air dryers were big around here in the '70s, but they've largely been > replaced by paper towels. Seems about 50-50 around here but towels seem to be gaining. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >> > With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. >> >> Are those the warm air dryers that blow hard enough that you feel >> like you've put your hand underneath a jet engine > > I didn't know there were such things. They're quite a hoot. I first ran into one a couple of years ago, but I forget where. (I think it was in an airport.) You can literally[1] see your skin being pushed and stretched by the flow of air. They dry you off pretty quickly, but I ran it through several cycles just to experience the novelty. I've only run into the like once or twice since. [1] and I mean that literally. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Just sit right back 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale, Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red |That started when a little boy kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. >>> Are those the warm air dryers that blow hard enough that you feel [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > [1] and I mean that literally. So far, I've only seen them at Warwick motorway services on the M40 (UK, of course). The major disadvantage is it also sounds as though you're standing under a jet engine. This, however, is the One True Solution. They actually work: http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/ SignatureDavid > So far, I've only seen them at Warwick motorway services on the M40 (UK, > of course). The major disadvantage is it also sounds as though you're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/ They make an awful racket. Just give us back paper towels! SignatureBob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele] > >>>> With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. > >>> Are those the warm air dryers that blow hard enough that you feel [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/ They have one of those in one of the gents' loos at Rochdale infirmary, but not in the next door ladies'. There's one in Tampopo in The Triangle in Manchester, we all took turns going to the loo so we could play with it. Very impressive. I've seen them elsewhere, but they're not all that common yet. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>> > With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > [1] and I mean that literally. I've seen/used those is seveal places (around Detroit). They are both functional and fun. Love'em. [sig quote]: > |Just sit right back > |and you'll hear a tale, > |a tale of the Stanford red > |That started when a little boy > |named Leland did drop dead I'm assuming this is about Standford U/Leland Stanford. Are there more lyrics? SignatureMaria Conlon >>>> With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. >>> Are those the warm air dryers that blow hard enough that you feel [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > [1] and I mean that literally. You can see that with the Dysons that I posted about in this thread but the feeling is almost like someone drying your hands gently for you with warm gloves. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> With warm air dryers, paper towels have become a rarity here. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > [1] and I mean that literally. Up at the Ho Chunk Casino, it seems that all the toilets have those. Fascinating,seeing your skin being pushed aside and showing the bones. Maybe the fat is liquefying in that tropic gale. They do have the infrared (or other kind of light) to dispense the paper towels, and to turn on the water taps, but that is fairly common these days. I think the automatic toilets and taps save a lot of money in cleanup. Now if only the soap dispensers could be over the sinks, as well. >The newest trick is for the dispensers to >spit out a length of towel when you wave your hand in front of a >sensor, so you don't have to touch anything but the towel you're going >to use. I came across one of those in O'Hare a month or two back. I spent some time fruitlessly looking for a lever, and it was pure luck that in doing so I unwittingly passed my hand in front of the sensor. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> The newest trick is for the dispensers to >> spit out a length of towel when you wave your hand in front of a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > some time fruitlessly looking for a lever, and it was pure luck that > in doing so I unwittingly passed my hand in front of the sensor. I remember having a similar problem when first encountering remote flushing loos and automatic taps. A visit to a public toilet is always such an adventure. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Those seem to be the only options around here, and I've only run into > the former kind a couple of times. Mostly the latter. These are fantastic, though, but I've only found them in railway stations: http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/ > Air dryers were big around here in the '70s, but they've largely been > replaced by paper towels. The newest trick is for the dispensers to > spit out a length of towel when you wave your hand in front of a > sensor, so you don't have to touch anything but the towel you're going > to use. Yes, I noticed those on my last visit to the US - a very good idea. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >>>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.dysonairblade.co.uk/ Tampopo has them - a Manchester noodle restaurant with only half a dozen locations. SignatureDavid >>>>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >>>>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Tampopo has them - a Manchester noodle restaurant with only half a dozen > locations. Shall we be lunching there, then, on 8th September? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >>>>>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Shall we be lunching there, then, on 8th September? Ah, a date. <turns to work PC, which is busy processing inconceivable amounts of data (the data is being processed on a server in our data centre, but I can watch it happening and intervene from here, which is necessary every waking hour at the moment)> <Added to my Calendar> I would be delighted to eat there, since it's superior to the place we went to last year (which wasn't bad, but not in the same league) and it has a very reasonably priced lunch menu, but I fear that Professors and Linz won't have enough time to get into town and back, which would involve parking or taking a taxi each way. My favourite noodle place is Fuzion - a mile or so south of Linz's office, but it would require a car journey down the rather crowded Oxford Road. I'm happy to transport, if there is sufficient time. An alternative is EastZEast which is right in the middle of UMIST and which is very good (Indian, complete with doormen in full tribal dress) but which would involve be a little too much food for a quick lunch. SignatureDavid > >>>>>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms > >>>>>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ah, a date. Huzzah! > <turns to work PC, which is busy processing inconceivable amounts of > data (the data is being processed on a server in our data centre, but I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Linz won't have enough time to get into town and back, which would > involve parking or taking a taxi each way. I will be minuting a meeting until about 1pm, so would be forced to arrive late. But I do want to see you all, wherever we boink! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >>>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Yes, I noticed those on my last visit to the US - a very good idea. Following up on this, my first UK sighting of one of these happened yesterday in the ladies loo deep in the bowels of Goodenough College http://www.goodenough.ac.uk/ The device was labelled "Enmotion". A visit to their web page provides a link to a "Fire proof Anti-Vandal Toilet Tissue Dispenser". I wonder what the major advantage is to such an item being fire proof? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms >>>>> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >link to a "Fire proof Anti-Vandal Toilet Tissue Dispenser". I wonder >what the major advantage is to such an item being fire proof? It defends its tissue supply against vandals with flames. Perhaps it is an indirect hint to persons of the vandal persuasion to set fire to the tissue in other makes thus creating a market for Fire proof Anti-Vandal Toilet Tissue Dispensers. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrotet: > LFS wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > set fire to the tissue in other makes thus creating a market for Fire > proof Anti-Vandal Toilet Tissue Dispensers. After a first quick read, I thought it was the toilet tissue itself that was fire-proof. But since it's just the dispenser, I guess we can chalk it up to a marketer's burning desire to wipe out the competition. SignatureMaria Conlon > The device was labelled "Enmotion". A visit to their web page provides a > link to a "Fire proof Anti-Vandal Toilet Tissue Dispenser". I wonder > what the major advantage is to such an item being fire proof? I wonder whether the "fire proof" refers to the dispenser or to the tissue itself. Perhaps they serve very hot curries. SignatureRob Bannister >LFS wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I wonder whether the "fire proof" refers to the dispenser or to the >tissue itself. Perhaps they serve very hot curries. Either way, the notice leaves it unsaid whether the tissues work against Goths. SignaturePaul > Air dryers were big around here in the '70s, but they've largely been > replaced by paper towels. The newest trick is for the dispensers to > spit out a length of towel when you wave your hand in front of a > sensor, so you don't have to touch anything but the towel you're going > to use. Of course, if the tiny portion of towel that is dispensed is smaller than desired (and it usually is for me), a second bout of waving is required. Brian SignatureDay 162 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project > >> Now you know two. Actually, probably many. In the women's restrooms > >> I find myself, there are usually trash cans by the door for the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > spit out a length of towel when you wave your hand in front of a > sensor, ITYM, about 80% of the time when you wave your hand in front of a sensor, counting both transient sensor misfunctions and completely broken and non-functioning units that get two or three tries before you give up on them. > so you don't have to touch anything but the towel you're going > to use. Nice idea, when it works. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>>> I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo >>>>> door knobs and the like. Who does that? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >his hand with his jacket before grabbing the outside door handle of the >building in which his office is located. Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise that it isn't all that severe after all. "Pandemic" is a geographic term but has been used to suggest severity. In our loos at work, there are a whole bunch of posters stuck up under the authority of the local health mob. These have all sorts of suggestions for avoiding flu risk. One of the most extreme suggests that you wash your hands for 15 to 20 seconds every time you go near a hand basin. Apart from the precious water wasted, I don't think anyone is prepared to spend that long removing all possible traces of genitalian contact after a whizz. Daft. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > In our loos at work, there are a whole bunch of posters stuck up under > the authority of the local health mob. These have all sorts of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is prepared to spend that long removing all possible traces of > genitalian contact after a whizz. Have none of your people realised you can turn off a tap while doing the actual washing part? Turn on tap, wet hands, turn off tap. Apply soap, rub hands together thoroughly. Turn on tap, rinse thoroughly. Turn off tap, dry hands. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> In our loos at work, there are a whole bunch of posters stuck up >> under the authority of the local health mob. These have all sorts [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > tap. Apply soap, rub hands together thoroughly. Turn on tap, rinse > thoroughly. Turn off tap, dry hands. Yes. And in case anyone has difficulty gauging the length of time involved in the "twenty second rule" for thorough hand-rubbing with soap, I read a suggestion that one sing "Happy Birthday" to oneself. Since then I have spend many happy 20-secondses making up decent and indecent rhymes to match the format. SignatureFrank ess > >> In our loos at work, there are a whole bunch of posters stuck up > >> under the authority of the local health mob. These have all sorts [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Since then I have spend many happy 20-secondses making up decent and > indecent rhymes to match the format. We tell YoungBloke to sing Twinkle Twinkle. It's almost impressive how fast he can sing... SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> In our loos at work, there are a whole bunch of posters stuck up under >> the authority of the local health mob. These have all sorts of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >rub hands together thoroughly. Turn on tap, rinse thoroughly. Turn off >tap, dry hands. It's still a waste of water whether you keep the tap running or not. The posters actually suggest running water, but the whole thing is excessive. If you are a hotspittal worker, different. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise > that it isn't all that severe after all. The most recent offerings on TV news seem to be hyping it up again. I heard some sort of doctor suggesting that flu deaths could be at least double the normal number this year, and pregnant women are being advised to stay at home. Of course, being "national" TV, this only applied to NSW and Victoria. SignatureRob Bannister >> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to stay at home. Of course, being "national" TV, this only applied to >NSW and Victoria. They are saying that if about 30% of the British population catch it (and 30% seems to be the sort of number for these epidemics) then 60,000 will die. That's a lot of people. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >(and 30% seems to be the sort of number for these epidemics) then >60,000 will die. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of ex-people: pushing up the daisies, having kicked the bucket, shuffled off the mortal coil and joined the choir invisibile. Let's see how this compares with the number of deaths for last year: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=952 There were 509,090 deaths registered in England and Wales in 2008 SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > There were 509,090 deaths registered in England and Wales in 2008 And I think I heard that about 25-30,000 people die from (or partly from) flu each year. SignatureDavid >>>>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>>>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >And I think I heard that about 25-30,000 people die from (or partly >from) flu each year. I have just read the article in today's edition of The Times. The figure is 65,000 deaths in the worst-case scenario. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6716477.ece Children under 14 are being hit hardest and offcials say that the NHS should plan for a worst case scenario of up to half of all children being infected during a first pandemic wave. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>>>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >And I think I heard that about 25-30,000 people die from (or partly >from) flu each year. Being partly dead must be a bitch. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > There were 509,090 deaths registered in England and Wales in 2008 The Australian news I saw said that the usual number of deaths from influenza was 1500-2000 (in Australia) and that we might expect 3000-5000 this year or even more. Please don't confuse the issue with the total number of deaths from all causes. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>>>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >3000-5000 this year or even more. Please don't confuse the issue with >the total number of deaths from all causes. The figures for a worst-case flu scenario both stand on their own and exist in a context. The possible percentage increase in deaths from all causes will be of interest to funeral directors. Should they increase their orders for supplies? Should they prepare for a larger percentage increase in the number of deceased children to be handled? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to stay at home. Of course, being "national" TV, this only applied to >NSW and Victoria. "Double" seems reasonable, if not conservative. In the UK, a number of "planning assumptions" (they insist that they aren't "predictions" or "estimates") have been given to the NHS by the Chief Medical Officer. Deaths are given as between 19,000 and 65,000, as against 6,000 to 10,000 in a "normal flu season" and 20,000 in a "bad year". The last two flu pandemics both killed around 30,000. Plans are being put in place for "up to" 360,000 patients requiring hospital care and 90,000 requiring "critical care". Of course, as with any flu epidemic, the great majority will not require medical intervention, but that isn't news. It seem the big problem will be with small children, who are both more severely affected and more likely to speead the infection than adults. Of those so far treated in hospital (652) the great najority have been children. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> being advised to stay at home. Of course, being "national" TV, this >> only applied to NSW and Victoria. Why does it only apply there? Don't forget that the first death was someone from a very remote desert part of Western Australia. > "Double" seems reasonable, if not conservative. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as against 6,000 to 10,000 in a "normal flu season" and 20,000 in a > "bad year". The last two flu pandemics both killed around 30,000. The difference between the UK situation and Australia is that you will probably have an effective vaccine available by the time your peak flu season arrives. So the conservative estimates seem more likely to be right, but I guess they still have to allow for a worst case scenario in which a more dangerous strain appears in time for the northern winter. Of course if that happens, we in the southern hemisphere might face another go-round next year, like happened in 1918-19. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > [ ... ] > The difference between the UK situation and Australia is that you will > probably have an effective vaccine available by the time your peak flu [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > winter. Of course if that happens, we in the southern hemisphere might > face another go-round next year, like happened in 1918-19. Our contacts in Chile (which, like Australia, is having its peak flu season now) tell us that people who got flu in 1957 have apparently much more immunity than people who didn't. Is anyone saying that in Australia? None of the European media that I've seen have mentioned anything like this, but it's noticeable how many of the people falling ill are children, which is not typical of flu epidemics. As one of my schoolmates wrote at the time -- The Great Plague of 1957 Would have given Pepys The crepys Not the best clerihew I've ever read, but it's the main thing I remember from 1957. Signatureathel >> [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >season now) tell us that people who got flu in 1957 have apparently >much more immunity than people who didn't. Excellent. I had it in 1957. It is interesting that having had the 1957 Asian flu might confer some immunity against the Swine flu because the former was H2N2 and the latter is H1N1. > Is anyone saying that in >Australia? None of the European media that I've seen have mentioned >anything like this, but it's noticeable how many of the people falling >ill are children, which is not typical of flu epidemics. Indeed. Another characteristic of the Swine flu is that it is not following the normal seasonal pattern. >As one of my schoolmates wrote at the time -- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Not the best clerihew I've ever read, but it's the main thing I >remember from 1957. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > anything like this, but it's noticeable how many of the people falling > ill are children, which is not typical of flu epidemics. I heard something like that - I don't remember the date, but they mentioned a particular strain of flu. SignatureRob Bannister >Our contacts in Chile (which, like Australia, is having its peak flu >season now) tell us that people who got flu in 1957 have apparently [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Not the best clerihew I've ever read, but it's the main thing I >remember from 1957. I don't remember it as being any worse than other years, though I do remember at school aqueuing up in the morning for "mist. expect. stim" and in the evening for "mist. expect. sed" which were stored by the matron in recycled bleach bottles. The former tasted fouler than the latter. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> The difference between the UK situation and Australia is that you >> will probably have an effective vaccine available by the time your [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > anything like this, but it's noticeable how many of the people falling > ill are children, which is not typical of flu epidemics. Yes, I recall reading that fairly early on, but there has been so much written on swine flu since that I can't now turn up the exact reference on the web. The nearest I can find is this: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5821a2.htm [quote] A recently reported serologic study suggested that children and younger adults have no or low levels of serum antibody, respectively, that are cross-reactive for the novel influenza A (H1N1) virus. Approximately one third of U.S. adults aged >60 years who were tested had cross-reactive neutralizing antibodies; however, the extent to which such antibody might be protective remains unknown (7). The serologic data, along with the age distribution of illness and clinical severity from the outbreak in Mexico, suggest age <60 years as a risk for infection and serious illness from novel A (H1N1) infection. [end quote] What is most puzzling is that most younger people develop only mild cases; it is just a small proportion of otherwise healthy young people who get severe symptoms. I gather that most of those involve secondary pneumonia, and from what I've read that is similar to the pattern in 1918-19. Why don't all those who lack cross-immunity from the 1950s strain end up with a severe form? There must be something else going on. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> The difference between the UK situation and Australia is that you >>> will probably have an effective vaccine available by the time your [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >1918-19. Why don't all those who lack cross-immunity from the 1950s >strain end up with a severe form? There must be something else going on. I think the answer is that people are not identical. Apart from differences in individual "health history" there may be genetic factors at work. When Bird Flu started spreading a few years ago there were reports of humans catching the disease from poultry.[1] There were no reports of human-to-human transmission except in a single extended family, in Indonesia I think. The guess was that they had an inherited susceptibility to the disease. [1] Avian flu is still affecting people and killing some: http://www.who.int/csr/disease/avian_influenza/country/cases_table_2009_07_01/en /index.html This year it is limited to China, Egypt and Vietnam, with Egypt having the largest number of cases proportionately although with the highest survival rate. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> Swine flu panic is subsiding here now. People are coming to realise >>>> that it isn't all that severe after all. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >probably have an effective vaccine available by the time your peak flu >season arrives. This depends on how bad the outbreaks are in other countries, according to The Times a day or two ago. We have a vaccine factory/plant/laboratory somewhere, but it can't produce enough to deal with the whole population this year, so we have contracts with facilities in other countries to supply the rest. If those countries have outbreaks that cause major problems with manning vital services and declare some sort of national emergencies, so much for contracts. >So the conservative estimates seem more likely to be >right, but I guess they still have to allow for a worst case scenario in >which a more dangerous strain appears in time for the northern winter. >Of course if that happens, we in the southern hemisphere might face >another go-round next year, like happened in 1918-19. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>The difference between the UK situation and Australia is that you will >>probably have an effective vaccine available by the time your peak flu [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >have outbreaks that cause major problems with manning vital services >and declare some sort of national emergencies, so much for contracts. I saw a report that other (European?) countries are becoming restless about the UK having ordered so much vaccine: "What about us? It's not fair" or something like that. >>So the conservative estimates seem more likely to be >>right, but I guess they still have to allow for a worst case scenario in >>which a more dangerous strain appears in time for the northern winter. >>Of course if that happens, we in the southern hemisphere might face >>another go-round next year, like happened in 1918-19. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo >>>> door knobs and the like. Who does that? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > restrooms, if there isn't a trash can there will often be a pile of used > paper towels on the floor. It's a whole other sex, I tell you. SignatureDavid a new Hilton > > >> I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo > > >> door knobs and the like. Who does that? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > restrooms, if there isn't a trash can there will often be a pile of used > paper towels on the floor. The same can be observed in men's restrooms. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > >>>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > There you go - I do know somebody who does that. Since the latest H1N1 scare many of the washrooms around here have handwashing instructions (as opposed to rituals) that recommend doing this[1[. I do so sometimes. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada [1] This includes those washrooms with only hot air dryers making it hard to follow the instructions. John Kane filted: >Since the latest H1N1 scare many of the washrooms around here have >handwashing instructions (as opposed to rituals) that recommend doing >this[1[. I do so sometimes. > >[1] This includes those washrooms with only hot air dryers making it >hard to follow the instructions. My late employer's washrooms had signs instructing employees to wash their hands with soap and warm water for a minimum of twenty seconds...nobody bothered to tell the people who calibrated the I/R-sensitive faucets to shut off after five seconds, long before the water has had a chance to get warm....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Er, me, when I can. I don't like warm air dryers either (apart from the >brilliant Dyson ones which really do dry your hands). I carry a little >bottle of anti-bacterial hand gel about with me. I'm not paranoid about >germs but I am careful. You won't get swine flu, then, according to the health fundis intercviewed on Sky News. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo door > knobs and the like. Who does that? Google on "door knobs flu" and check some of the results. For instance http://preview.tinyurl.com/6mh62e SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > instance > http://preview.tinyurl.com/6mh62e Yeah, but I don't get the flu, and the last time I had a flu shot was in the 'fifties, when it was mandatory (in the Army). My immune system is working quite well. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > in the 'fifties, when it was mandatory (in the Army). My immune > system is working quite well. So. You were _told_ that it was a flu shot? My brother was in a study while in the Air Force. He wasn't told what the experiment was for, so when, after eight years in the military (this would have been late fifties, early sixties) they were booting him out, his lawyer discovered that he had participated in some double-blind test and saved Dick's pension. He got an honorable discharge, and a pension, as long as he agreed never to sue the USAF. We never found out what his study and injections were for. >>>>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the 'fifties, when it was mandatory (in the Army). My immune system is > working quite well. AFAICT I had flu once, in 1975 during my first year at university. I didn't consult a doctor - I just stayed in bed for about four days and received visits from my classmates. I've never had a flu innoculation and I don't get colds. I must be Skitt. Seems to me that humans evolved amongst bugs and amongst bugs we must live. SignatureDavid a new Hilton >>>>>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Seems to me that humans evolved amongst bugs and amongst bugs we must live. Those that went mysophobic early probably have to keep it up as they haven't developed any resistance. My advice to young players is to roll around in the dirt, eat your fingernails, go to a public school, use public transport and live in a group house for a while. And while you're at it, use the door knobs as they were intended and only wash your hands *before* touching sensitive parts of the body. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>> Google on "door knobs flu" and check some of the results. For >>>> instance [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > you're at it, use the door knobs as they were intended and only wash > your hands *before* touching sensitive parts of the body. I've done all that. Well, not the fingernail part. Oh, and I don't even wash my hands before touching any sensitive parts of my body. I wash my hands when they get dirty. That has kept me remarkably healthy. That, and all the early childhood illnesses I suffered through in Europe during the 1932 through 1947 period. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>>> Google on "door knobs flu" and check some of the results. For >>>>> instance [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >all the early childhood illnesses I suffered through in Europe during the >1932 through 1947 period. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, innit. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > "Skitt" wrote: >>>>>> Google on "door knobs flu" and check some of the results. For >>>>>> instance http://preview.tinyurl.com/6mh62e [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, innit. Exactly. SignatureSkitt, drawing from experiences in these places: http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/places.html > AFAICT I had flu once, in 1975 during my first year at university. I > didn't consult a doctor - I just stayed in bed for about four days [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Seems to me that humans evolved amongst bugs and amongst bugs we must > live. ...and die. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> AFAICT I had flu once, in 1975 during my first year at university. I >> didn't consult a doctor - I just stayed in bed for about four days [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ....and die. Shirley, he who lives by the bug shall die by the bug. SignatureDavid >>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo door >knobs and the like. Who does that? I do. On occasion. I have been in public bathrooms where I don't want my skin in contact with *anything* in that room. I'm not paranoid about it, though. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> And also you can use them to hold the door handle when you exit. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I have never even heard of the idea of avoiding touching public loo door >knobs and the like. Who does that? John Varela, it seems. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of Washington, > D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her that the men's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the > extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. It must be unique to where you come from. Towels is the usual accepted ter Towling is a verb where I live and means one is dtying themselves with a towel. Do you also call the cleaningagent "the soaping"? the T-P " the wiping" "Mom! we're out of the wiping again" > Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of > Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the > extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. How old was the woman? You may have been instrumental in expanding her knowledge of the world. I am often shocked by the ignorance of some of my young relatives, especially in terms of vocabulary. I believe much of this has to do with a lack of experience, for these (now grand-) nieces and nephews are, of course, being related to me, far above par in the intelligence department. Your server, at least, appeared to be polite and willing to listen/learn. >> Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of >> Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >the intelligence department. Your server, at least, appeared to be >polite and willing to listen/learn. I would expect a clerk in a fabric store where material is sold by the yard or the bolt to understand "toweling", but the word does not describe the hand-drying product in the men's room. Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was provided *might* be described as containing "toweling", though. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida tony wrote on Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:40:09 -0400: >>> Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs >>> of Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> intelligence department. Your server, at least, appeared to >> be polite and willing to listen/learn. > I would expect a clerk in a fabric store where material is > sold by the yard or the bolt to understand "toweling", but the > word does not describe the hand-drying product in the men's > room. > Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was > provided *might* be described as containing "toweling", > though. "Out of towelling" is not a phrase that I would use in the context. "Out of towels" must have the same meaning and would be understood to include continuous rolls of cloth. I haven't seen those rolls lately. Mostly, paper towel dispensers are used or those horrible hot air dryers that lead to people shaking their hands in mid-air rather use them. They have improved of late but I don't like them. Of course, places like upscale men's clubs may have an attendant who will provide a fresh regular towel. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was provided > *might* be described as containing "toweling", though. I came across one of those just the other day in a gas station in Portugal. I was reminded that they really are superior, or would be except that they are typically at the end of the roll and everybody is trying to dry with the same three feet of toweling. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was provided >> *might* be described as containing "toweling", though. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > except that they are typically at the end of the roll and everybody > is trying to dry with the same three feet of toweling. Aha! On the road, are we? Enjoy your trip! > >> Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was provided > >> *might* be described as containing "toweling", though. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Aha! On the road, are we? Enjoy your trip! "Just the other day" was over a month ago, but thanks for the thought. I guess no one noticed I was missing from aue for most of May. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela filted: >> >> Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was provided >> >> *might* be described as containing "toweling", though. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >thought. I guess no one noticed I was missing from aue for most of >May. We just assumed you were having a casual dalliance with another newsgroup....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > John Varela filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > We just assumed you were having a casual dalliance with another newsgroup....r I was hiking the Appalachian Trail. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> We just assumed you were having a casual dalliance with another >> newsgroup....r > > I was hiking the Appalachian Trail. That excuse won't fly these days, John. Think Sanford. SignatureMaria Conlon >> John Varela filted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I was hiking the Appalachian Trail. How much of it did you do, John? I've only managed pieces, here and there. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> John Varela filted: >>> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >How much of it did you do, John? I've only managed pieces, here and >there. You've been "whooshed", Charles. It's a joking reference to one of the latest political scandals. Gov Mark Sanford (South Carolina) disappeared for several days, and his office put out the word that he was hiking the Appalachian Trail. In reality, Gov Sanford was in Argentina engaged in a tryst with his mistress. The ironic aspect (using "ironic" in the American sense) is that Gov Sanford, married for over 20 years, is one of those Republicans who champion "family values". He voted to impeach Clinton because of his "reprehensible" behavior with Monica. Welcome back, but you are still "Charles" to me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>> John Varela filted: >>>> > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >was hiking the Appalachian Trail. In reality, Gov Sanford was in >Argentina engaged in a tryst with his mistress. Appropriately his mistress has University degree in "International Affairs". >The ironic aspect (using "ironic" in the American sense) is that Gov >Sanford, married for over 20 years, is one of those Republicans who >champion "family values". He voted to impeach Clinton because of his >"reprehensible" behavior with Monica. > >Welcome back, but you are still "Charles" to me. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Tony Cooper: > > Those machines in which a continuous roll of cloth was provided > > *might* be described as containing "toweling", though. John Varela: > I came across one of those just the other day in a gas station in > Portugal. I was reminded that they really are superior, or would be > except that they are typically at the end of the roll and everybody > is trying to dry with the same three feet of toweling. Oh yeah? Just try cleaning your glasses with them. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Ah. I am now confused at a much more msb@vex.net | advanced level, thank you." --Mike Lyle >> Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of >> Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >the intelligence department. Your server, at least, appeared to be >polite and willing to listen/learn. I've noticed this in young relatives too, and think that a lot of it is caused by them not reading as much or as widely as we did when we were young. There is another factor, of course, that clever people don't necessarily have clever children. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England On 11 Jul 2009, Robin Bignall wrote >>> Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of >>> Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of it is caused by them not reading as much or as widely as we > did when we were young. It's also a trick of memory, I think. Except in particularly remarkable/rememberable cases, I think we tend not to know the age at which we learned our vocabulary. For most words it just feels like we more-or-less always knew that -- even if we first absorbed the meaning as a teenager or young adult. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >>> Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of >>> Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > is caused by them not reading as much or as widely as we did when we > were young. Blame it on the TV. That's where they learn their language, but not their _understanding_ of poetic usage, similes, metaphors, or historical and cultural language usage. > There is another factor, of course, that clever people don't > necessarily have clever children. > >> I am often shocked by the ignorance of > >> some of my young relatives, especially in terms of vocabulary. I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > their _understanding_ of poetic usage, similes, metaphors, or historical > and cultural language usage. For that they need to watch old cartoons. Thanks to cable and satellite TV, a much smaller proportion of TV programming nowadays consists of old cartoons than WIWAL. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > >> I am often shocked by the ignorance of > > >> some of my young relatives, especially in terms of vocabulary. I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > For that they need to watch old cartoons. All right! Bugs Bunny taught me everything I know about Wagner. (And, having struggled through Valkyrie 'live from the Met' a month or so back, everything I ever need to know). DC -- > All right! Bugs Bunny taught me everything I know about Wagner. (And, > having struggled through Valkyrie 'live from the Met' a month or so > back, everything I ever need to know). Did you hear ENO Peter Grimes on R3 last night? Can send you audio file if you want. SignatureDavid > > All right! Bugs Bunny taught me everything I know about Wagner. > > (And, having struggled through Valkyrie 'live from the Met' a month > > or so back, everything I ever need to know). > > Did you hear ENO Peter Grimes on R3 last night? Can send you audio > file if you want. No, I missed that, David. Sounds brilliant, and just the thing to listen to on one of the weekly four-hour journeys to and from Cambridge I'm having to do over the next 8 weeks. An audio file would be great - I'm on vivUNDERSCOREmidlaneATyahoo.co.uk (there's a 10mb limit on that account). I did my best with Valkyrie, but after an hour I just had to turn the damn thing off. I suppose you reach a point where you realise there are some tastes you just aren't ever going to acquire. DC -- >>> All right! Bugs Bunny taught me everything I know about Wagner. >>> (And, having struggled through Valkyrie 'live from the Met' a month [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > damn thing off. I suppose you reach a point where you realise there > are some tastes you just aren't ever going to acquire. Oh, I wouldn't even have bothered to try. Fat Germans shouting at each other. I have a close school friend with a double First from Manchester and RNCM (music, obviously) who works for the San Francisco Opera as head of music staff. He is a Wagner nut who never misses Bayreuth - he took A-level German at school simply to help with his obsession. SignatureDavid > >>> All right! Bugs Bunny taught me everything I know about Wagner. > >>> (And, having struggled through Valkyrie 'live from the Met' a month [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > music staff. He is a Wagner nut who never misses Bayreuth - he took > A-level German at school simply to help with his obsession. German is useful to read about Wagner, and to read his own enormous prose output, should one be so inclined. But as for his operas--one wonders exactly what language they are supposed to have been written in, almost, but not quite, entirely unlike Standard German as she is spoke. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > > All right! Bugs Bunny taught me everything I know about Wagner. > > > (And, having struggled through Valkyrie 'live from the Met' a month [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > damn thing off. I suppose you reach a point where you realise there > are some tastes you just aren't ever going to acquire. Let's just say that as a composer-librettist, Wagner was no Sondheim[1], and leave it at that. [1] It works both ways. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >No, I missed that, David. Sounds brilliant, and just the thing to >listen to on one of the weekly four-hour journeys to and from Cambridge [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >damn thing off. I suppose you reach a point where you realise there >are some tastes you just aren't ever going to acquire. The Ring is completely the wrong place to start with Wagner. Try the ones which are full of great tunes like Rienzi and the Flying Dutchman, then move on to Lohengrin and Tannhäuser. Wagner grows on you. As for Britten - you can keep him, never did a thing for me. > Pat Durkin wrote, in part: >> ...I am often shocked by the ignorance of some of >> my young relatives, especially in terms of vocabulary. I believe [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> the intelligence department. Your server, at least, appeared to be >> polite and willing to listen/learn. > I've noticed this in young relatives too, and think that a lot of it > is caused by them not reading as much or as widely as we did when we > were young. > There is another factor, of course, that clever people don't > necessarily have clever children. There is yet another factor: Our children grew up, or are growing up, in a different world. The language is different and still changing. Plus, as Robin mentioned, "not reading" is a factor. And even if they read, it may not be the "old" stuff, but newer, more current books/articles -- that may not even be "in print" but on the computer. (Why mention that last bit? Because reading online doesn't provide the sensory aroma and feel of books. Maybe that doesn't matter, but IMO reading a book is certainly better, I think, than reading a screen.) Plus: Our children speak and know a language that we parents may not speak or know very well, especially if we have our noses buried in books. Trying to keep up, but not trying as hard as I probably should, SignatureMaria Conlon > that may not even be "in print" but on the computer. (Why mention that > last bit? Because reading online doesn't provide the sensory aroma and > feel of books. Maybe that doesn't matter, but IMO reading a book is > certainly better, I think, than reading a screen.) But printed books are so sterile and don't provide the sensory aroma and feel of handwritten vellum pages... SignatureChristian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de > > that may not even be "in print" but on the computer. (Why mention that > > last bit? Because reading online doesn't provide the sensory aroma and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > But printed books are so sterile and don't provide the sensory aroma > and feel of handwritten vellum pages... And they don't last as long. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > > that may not even be "in print" but on the computer. (Why mention that > > > last bit? Because reading online doesn't provide the sensory aroma and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And they don't last as long. Nothing like a good clay tablet for texture and durability. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > > > that may not even be "in print" but on the computer. (Why mention that > > > last bit? Because reading online doesn't provide the sensory aroma and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And they don't last as long. And they make lousy palimpsests. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > Plus: Our children speak and know a language that we parents may not > speak or know very well, especially if we have our noses buried in books. There was an interesting letter in our paper the other day from a "Generation Y" woman complaining about how her parents keep sending her messages in text-speak, which she does not readily understand. SignatureRob Bannister > Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of > Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the > extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. AFAIK, in BrE, "toweling" is uncut cotton material, from which you make towels. I've never heard the word used for paper towels. SignatureDavid > AFAIK, in BrE, "toweling" is uncut cotton material, from which you make > towels. I've never heard the word used for paper towels. Two ells in towelling over here, as I mentioned earlier. > > AFAIK, in BrE, "toweling" is uncut cotton material, from which you make > > towels. I've never heard the word used for paper towels. > > Two ells in towelling over here, as I mentioned earlier. Webster's gives it, with one ell, as the same AmE meaning, dated 1580 I think. > > AFAIK, in BrE, "toweling" is uncut cotton material, from which you > > make towels. I've never heard the word used for paper towels. > > Two ells in towelling over here, as I mentioned earlier. Two ells are for officers, bowb[1]. 1. This would be better on rec.arts.sf.written Brian SignatureDay 159 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >> AFAIK, in BrE, "toweling" is uncut cotton material, from which you make >> towels. I've never heard the word used for paper towels. > > Two ells in towelling over here, as I mentioned earlier. I'd have thought two ells of towelling was a bit wide, even for a beach towel. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > > Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of > > Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > AFAIK, in BrE, "toweling" is uncut cotton material, from which you > make towels. I've never heard the word used for paper towels. I'm still wondering about that server, and whether the OP should have tried pinging it, but I suspect this one has been done to death on AUE previously. DC -- >Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of >Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the >extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. Until you explained it, I would not have understood "toweling", as you meant it, any better than my fellow Virginian did. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of > Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the > extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. Never heard of it before, and I've spent time in New York (the city). M-W Online says that toweling is a cotton or linen fabric often used for making towels. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of > Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the > extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make towels -- especially dish towels. Here's a picture: http://countrycousinsfabric.com/Fabric/Towels.jpg By the way, not all toweling has stripes. Note that terry cloth, used for most bath towels and wash cloths, is not generally called "toweling." It's just called terry [cloth]. Also, paper towels are not generally called "toweling." And: Note that the linen or cotton fabric used for "roll" towels* /can/ be called "toweling." * see photo at http://fishers.catchline.co.uk/pictures/news/roller-towel.jpg or see the following: http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/dpa/lowres/dpan642l.jpg--Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native ofeast Tennessee. Maria Conlon: > As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make towels -- > especially dish towels. I wouldn't use the word myself, but I'd take it to have that sort of meaning. > Also, paper towels are not generally called "toweling." Agreed. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "I seem to have become a signature quote." msb@vex.net -- David Keldsen >As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make towels -- >especially dish towels. >Note that terry cloth, used for most bath towels and wash cloths, is not >generally called "toweling." It's just called terry [cloth]. I don't think that's true of BrE. I haven't had occasion to ask for any recently, but if I asked for "towelling" in (say) an English department store I'd expect the assistant in the fabric department to point me to terry towelling rather than to anything else. I can't imagine anyone making their own dish towels (BrE drying-up cloths). I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And I dimly remember getting it in the distant past in order to make roller-towels. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make >>towels -- [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > department store I'd expect the assistant in the fabric department to > point me to terry towelling rather than to anything else. It may be a matter of BrE v AmE or it may be something less: Maria'sPerceptionE or Old/LocalizedAmE. While I've been in fabric stores (or departments) in recent months, I haven't asked for "towling." I guess I should go and ask, just to see what happens. (Possible resulting answer: "Huh?") Maybe I'll even buy some towling and try my hand (and relatively new sewing machine) at making some kitchen towels. > I can't imagine anyone making their own dish towels (BrE drying-up > cloths). I think at least one grandmother or great-grandmother of mine did. My mother didn't, though. Not towels. > And now, I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such > but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And I > dimly remember getting it in the distant past in order to make > roller-towels. That raises the question: What do you mean by "roller-towels"? To me, it would mean the commercial cloth towling such as seen in http://farm1.static.flickr.com/230/535848554_7e2c97c0a5.jpg?v=0 -- which have been replaced locally, at least, by paper towels or blowers for the most part. SignatureMaria Conlon >> And now, I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such >> but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >-- which have been replaced locally, at least, by paper towels or >blowers for the most part. Like this: http://tinyurl.com/n7avbv The two ends of a single length of towelling are sewn together to make a loop. The idea is to pull it down around the bar at the top until you get a dry bit. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> And now, I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such >>> but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of towelling are sewn together to make a loop. The idea is to pull it > down around the bar at the top until you get a dry bit. I've never seen that. Does one have to "un-sew" the towel to remove it, or does the hanging apparatus come apart easily? Any case, it sounds like a good idea when one's family tends to not re-hang the towel properly, letting it slip to the floor. As always, we live and learn on AUE. SignatureMaria Conlon >>>> And now, I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such >>>> but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >I've never seen that. Does one have to "un-sew" the towel to remove it, >or does the hanging apparatus come apart easily? I can just see a vertical groove above the wooden roller at the righthand end in that image. The roller just lifts up and out. >Any case, it sounds like a good idea when one's family tends to not >re-hang the towel properly, letting it slip to the floor. > >As always, we live and learn on AUE. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Like this: http://tinyurl.com/n7avbv The two ends of a single >>> length [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> it, >> or does the hanging apparatus come apart easily? [...] > I can just see a vertical groove above the wooden roller at the > righthand end in that image. The roller just lifts up and out. Ah. Upon taking a closer look, I see it now, too. Thanks. SignatureMaria Conlon Wood Avens wrote... > Like this: http://tinyurl.com/n7avbv What on earth is the matter with Google tonight? This is what your tinyurl served up for me: http://tinyurl.com/lurm49 ( http://cid-275b34cd4fcbe487.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Noel%7C4s%20open%20files /google%7C_gone%7C_mad.PNG ) Those odd letters are all in the page source, so I don't think it's some new quirk of my IE7. SignatureNoel > Wood Avens wrote... >> Like this: http://tinyurl.com/n7avbv > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Those odd letters are all in the page source, so I don't think it's > some new quirk of my IE7. The same weird stuff is seen with Firefox 3.5 SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> Wood Avens wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The same weird stuff is seen with Firefox 3.5 It's not Google. The link has been befuddled by elmer. Compare the normal link: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pedlars.co.uk/swatches/swatc h.62.sw_image.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pedlars.co.uk/page_769.html&usg=__w51V74F 4zcb8drusmzZ8G_DZ9JA=&h=430&w=430&sz=32&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=hrBdx9SkDdwDDM:&tbnh =126&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droller%2Btowel%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG with Katy's link: http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pedlars.co.uk/swatches/swatc h.62.sw_image.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pedlars.co.uk/page_769.html&usg=__w51V74F 4zcb8drusmzZ8G_DZ9JA=&h=430&w=430&sz=32&hl=xx-elmer&start=1&um=1&tbnid=hrBdx9SkD dwDDM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droller%2Btowel%26hl%3Dxx-elmer%26cli ent%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au John Holmes wrote... >>> Wood Avens wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > with Katy's link: > http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pedlars.co.uk/swatches/swatc h.62.sw_image.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.pedlars.co.uk/page_769.html&usg=__w51V74F 4zcb8drusmzZ8G_DZ9JA=&h=430&w=430&sz=32&hl=xx-elmer&start=1&um=1&tbnid=hrBdx9SkD dwDDM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droller%2Btowel%26hl%3Dxx-elmer%26cli ent%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 Thank you, John. What on earth does that mean? If it's not Google that does it, what is it? Are you implying that my machine (and Skitt's) have contracted some weird disease? The only sense I could get out of a Google search was something Finnish to do with finite element analysis as applied to fluid dynamics etc. SignatureNoel > Thank you, John. What on earth does that mean? If it's not Google > that does it, what is it? Are you implying that my machine (and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Finnish to do with finite element analysis as applied to fluid > dynamics etc. It's a toy that works through a special version of the Google page, and Katy had it selected on her computer when she created the TinyUrl. http://www.google.com/intl/xx-elmer/ There's also: http://www.google.com/intl/xx-klingon/ http://www.google.com/intl/xx-piglatin/ http://www.google.com/intl/xx-bork/ http://www.google.com/intl/xx-hacker/ and possibly others. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > >> And now, I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such > >> but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of towelling are sewn together to make a loop. The idea is to pull it > down around the bar at the top until you get a dry bit. I've never seen anything like that. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > >> And now, I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such > > >> but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I've never seen anything like that. I've never seen anything like that _in North America_. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > That raises the question: What do you mean by "roller-towels"? To me, it > would mean the commercial cloth towling such as seen in > http://farm1.static.flickr.com/230/535848554_7e2c97c0a5.jpg?v=0 That's what I mean by roller towel. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email Wood Avens wrote... > I can't imagine anyone making their own dish towels (BrE drying-up > cloths). I don't think I've ever heard that term before. I can only imagine you're referring to what I would call a tea-towel, as opposed to a dish-cloth of the kind I was urged to knit for my aunts' birthdays. A dish towel could be either, I suppose, although 'towel' has in my understanding connotations of drying. My basic vocabulary stems from Lincolnshire in the 1950s. SignatureNoel >Wood Avens wrote... >> I can't imagine anyone making their own dish towels (BrE drying-up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >understanding connotations of drying. My basic vocabulary stems from >Lincolnshire in the 1950s. So what exactly is a dish towel? I accepted Katy's assumption (or certain knowledge, perhaps) that it was a cloth for drying dishes. In fact, Katy has an uncanny knack of knowing my opinion on usage before I express it. Saves me no end of typing. Drying is what towels do, innit? Dish-cloths are often of linen, though these need tempering before they serve well (we discussed all this ages ago). Knitting one is a bit of a boggler. Purls before swine, perhaps. SignaturePaul Paul Wolff wrote... >>Wood Avens wrote... >>> I can't imagine anyone making their own dish towels (BrE [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > they serve well (we discussed all this ages ago). Knitting one is > a bit of a boggler. Purls before swine, perhaps. I don't think so. Let's get the terminology straight for a start - OED says more-or-less: dish-cloth[1], a cloth used in the kitchen or scullery for *washing* dishes, etc. tea-towel = tea-cloth tea-cloth, a cloth used for *wiping* tea-things after washing them (tea-things, the articles used for serving tea at table, as tea-pot, milk-jug, sugar-basin, cups, saucers, plates, etc., together forming a tea-set or tea-service.) Note the use of the verb 'to wipe' rather than 'to dry'. We thought 'wiping' in this sense rather common. This is the sort of dish-cloth I used to knit: http://dishclothcorner.blogspot.com/2006_05_10_archive.html I doubt that anyone would customarily use linen yarn for such a lowly item. A glass-cloth, now, that's a different thing altogether. Often woven in linen, it's a sort of superior tea-towel to be used for drying glasses. It often has 'GLASS' or 'GLASS CLOTH' woven into a stripe, in an effort to dissuade you from using it to wipe mud off your wellies:: http://www.irishlinencenter.com/images/glasscloth2x.jpg Posher tea-towels are also of linen. [1] One learns remarkable things when researching the most banal of topics. I didn't know before this evening that "dishcloth" is also a name for the vegetable marrow that produces loofahs (luffas, as OED will have it). There was always a loofah in my childhood bathroom, along with a pumice stone shaped like half an avocado, but I don't think I've come across either of these since 1957. SignatureNoel > [1] One learns remarkable things when researching the most banal of > topics. I didn't know before this evening that "dishcloth" is also a > name for the vegetable marrow that produces loofahs (luffas, as OED > will have it). There was always a loofah in my childhood bathroom, > along with a pumice stone shaped like half an avocado, but I don't > think I've come across either of these since 1957. Someone gave us one for a wedding present. The first few times I used it large seeds fell out, which was a bit disconcerting. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> [1] One learns remarkable things when researching the most banal of >> topics. I didn't know before this evening that "dishcloth" is also a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Someone gave us one for a wedding present. The first few times I >used it large seeds fell out, which was a bit disconcerting. You could have planted them, and had loofahs for life. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> [1] One learns remarkable things when researching the most banal >>> of topics. I didn't know before this evening that "dishcloth" is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> avocado, but I don't think I've come across either of these since >>> 1957. >> Someone gave us one for a wedding present. The first few times I >> used it large seeds fell out, which was a bit disconcerting. > You could have planted them, and had loofahs for life. I once discovered a loofah vine growing up a tree beside our driveway in Haiti; as an impecunious youth, I seized the opportunity to prepare a couple for use as a Christmas present for my parents. I can testify that it takes quite a lot of peeling, seeding, soaking and washing to make them presentable. > On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:47:13 +0100, Nick > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > You could have planted them, and had loofahs for life. Or, possibly, pumice stones for life. Personally, I always wanted a butter tree, but none of the butter I get ever has any seeds in it... Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "The dandelion has no origin; rather, its seeds came into existence at the Big Bang and dispersed through all the dimensions of spacetime, like background radiation and logic." - B. Sharvy >Paul Wolff wrote... >>>Wood Avens wrote... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >dish-cloth[1], a cloth used in the kitchen or scullery for *washing* >dishes, etc. Yes, you're right, I wasn't paying proper attention at that point, and was writing about a drying-up cloth. >tea-towel = tea-cloth >tea-cloth, a cloth used for *wiping* tea-things after washing them [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >along with a pumice stone shaped like half an avocado, but I don't >think I've come across either of these since 1957. SignaturePaul Ildhund wrote, in <h3dsn7$6vl$1@news.eternal-september.org> on Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:42:20 +0100: > [1] One learns remarkable things when researching the most banal of > topics. I didn't know before this evening that "dishcloth" is also a > name for the vegetable marrow that produces loofahs (luffas, as OED > will have it). There was always a loofah in my childhood bathroom, > along with a pumice stone shaped like half an avocado, but I don't > think I've come across either of these since 1957. I have a pumice stone in the bathroom. It must have come into the family along with my wife as I never had one in my bachelor days. I haven't seen a loofah for years. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > I have a pumice stone in the bathroom. It must have come into the > family along with my wife as I never had one in my bachelor days. I > haven't seen a loofah for years. We have both (pumice and loofah), and I use one or the other on occasion. My husband doesn't. Is such usage a "woman thing"? SignatureMaria Conlon >> I have a pumice stone in the bathroom. It must have come into the >> family along with my wife as I never had one in my bachelor days. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Is such usage a "woman thing"? No, I don't think so. I have two loofah-ish things with long handles, one very rough and the other smoother, but they're made from some sort of plastic rather than the real thing. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall wrote... >>> I have a pumice stone in the bathroom. It must have come into >>> the family along with my wife as I never had one in my bachelor [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > handles, one very rough and the other smoother, but they're made > from some sort of plastic rather than the real thing. I did try on occasion to scrub my back with a loofah, but the result was never very satisfactory - I couldn't achieve an acceptable degree of lateral pressure unless I used both hands, and the bally thing - handleless - just wasn't long enough to allow for that. I never did discover the purpose of the pumice stone, whose name until such things passed out of my sphere of existence I believed to be *pummy stone. Do you all have orange sticks in your spongebag? SignatureNoel >Robin Bignall wrote... >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >such things passed out of my sphere of existence I believed to be >*pummy stone. Aren't pumice stones used on the feet and elbows? >Do you all have orange sticks in your spongebag? The word "spongebag" always makes me smile. Thank God I've never had my luggage searched by customs in the UK. If some bloke said "Please hand over your spongebag, Sir", I'd have a choking fit. That's never a good thing when dealing with authority. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > Aren't pumice stones used on the feet and elbows? I've used them only on my feet. As for the elbows, ouch. I think one's elbows would be a bloody (AmE) mess if one used a pumice stone on them. Depends on the elbows in question, of course. > The word "spongebag" always makes me smile. Thank God I've never had > my luggage searched by customs in the UK. If some bloke said "Please > hand over your spongebag, Sir", I'd have a choking fit. That's never > a good thing when dealing with authority. <laugh> Actually, possibly because of never taking a flight overseas, I've never been asked about a "spongebag." (One certainly isn't asked about it when crossing the border from Detroit to Windsor, Ontario, Canada.) I know what the term (sponge bag) means, but I don't use it. I'd be likely to call the item a "toiletries" bag, which one used to put in one's "vanity case." "Sponge bag" reminds me of "ditty bag," and, of course, Sponge Bob Square Pants. SignatureMaria Conlon >> Aren't pumice stones used on the feet and elbows? > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >"Sponge bag" reminds me of "ditty bag," and, of course, Sponge Bob >Square Pants. I have always called my traveling toiletries case a "Dopp kit". Yes, I know that I think that "spongebag" is a silly-sounding term but I use "Dopp kit" and think it's quite normal. The name "Dopp kit" comes from Charles Doppelt, a German immigrant to the United States, who - according to Wikipedia - invented his toiletry case in 1919. The name caught on because thousands of his products were provided to American soldiers in WWII. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >Aren't pumice stones used on the feet and elbows? When we had one, in my childhood, we used it for getting ink off our hands - a fairly frequent necessity in those days of steel pens and inkwells in school desks. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >> Aren't pumice stones used on the feet and elbows? > > When we had one, in my childhood, we used it for getting ink off our > hands - a fairly frequent necessity in those days of steel pens and > inkwells in school desks. For a long time I thought that was their main purpose. My dad whose job involved a lot of writing always had inky fingers too and the "pummy stone" (as I thought it was called) was his way of dealing with them. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > From: LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> > Subject: Re: Toweling [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > job involved a lot of writing always had inky fingers too and the > "pummy stone" (as I thought it was called) was his way of dealing with We quite clearly /all/ thought it was called a "pummy stone". Although I hav a loofah, I have no stones in the bath. I do have a rather nasty-looking cheese-grater thing which works wonders on the feet. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > When we had one, in my childhood, we used it for getting ink off our > hands - a fairly frequent necessity in those days of steel pens and > inkwells in school desks. I remember seeing ink pen handles and steel nibs, but can't recall ever using them except to play with. Our grade school desks had holes for ink wells but no ink wells. I believe we only used pencils in school. I'm not sure when I got my first fountain pen. There were two grades of paper: pencil and ink. Pencil paper was much like newsprint and would blot if you tried to write on it in ink. Ink paper was the high-priced alternative. When I took mechanical drawing in high school we had to ink our drawings, using those special nibs that come with drawing kits. I still have such a kit. When I got to engineering school, drawings were no longer inked because the improved copy machines--Ozalids, we called them; Xerox came later--did not require it. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make >> towels -- especially dish towels. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And I dimly remember getting it in the distant past in order to make > roller-towels. I suppose you'll have to imagine it, so I may not be saving you any effort: A close friend of my mother's was a member of a family whose principal wage-earner worked at a flour mill. Every month or so he would bring home bundles of imperfect (holes and misprint) really-big flour sacks made of cotton material. For a couple days all possible recruits from the family and neighborhood participated in a hemming bee, producing (once thay were washed) what most acknowledge are the best possible dish towels/drying-up cloths: very absorptive, relatively lint-free, and clean-feeling pieces of hand-hemmed material about two by three feet, if memory serves. K-mart used to sell somewhat smaller ones, bundled under the Martha Stewart brand. Probably didn't have a flour mill on their c.v. Another of the can't-have-too-many-of list items. I usually carry a couple on photo shoots, to protect cameras and neck from antipatheic elements. Great for cleaning your glasses, too. SignatureFrank ess > I suppose you'll have to imagine it, so I may not be saving you any > effort: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Great for cleaning your glasses, too. I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny sacks?) for clothing back in the olden days. Am I misremembering? SignatureMaria Conlon > I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny sacks?) > for clothing back in the olden days. Am I misremembering? A gunny sack is burlap, isn't it? You wouldn't make clothing out of burlap. I recall seeing flour sacks with floral decoration printed on them and my mother telling me it was so that poor people could use the cloth for clothing. This was in a small country town in Louisiana where my grandmother lived. The date was no later than the early or mid 1940s, when nothing much had changed in the countryside since the depths of the Depression. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny >> sacks?) >> for clothing back in the olden days. Am I misremembering? > > A gunny sack is burlap, isn't it? You wouldn't make clothing out of > burlap. Yes, burlap. That's why I put the question mark after gunny sacks. (I /have/ heard people mention using gunny sacks for making a dress, but I think they may have been trying to pull my leg. But you never know....) > I recall seeing flour sacks with floral decoration printed on them > and my mother telling me it was so that poor people could use the > cloth for clothing. This was in a small country town in Louisiana > where my grandmother lived. The date was no later than the early or > mid 1940s, when nothing much had changed in the countryside since > the depths of the Depression. As I've mentioned here before, my mother's and my father's people were Southerners, and were poor -- pre- and post-depression. The flour-sack clothing is quite believable. By the way, my grandmother (maternal) and great-grandmother (paternal) and various aunts and uncles told me more, probably, than my parents did about the lean years. They -- my parents -- did tell me some things, but not in the detail that I learned from others. It's likely that my mother and father did not like to talk about it, just as my father would never speak much about his Army Air Force experiences overseas in WWII. Forgetting is preferable, if one can do that. SignatureMaria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of east Tennessee. ObEditing: I've edited this post a few times for clarity. It may now contain some inexplicable errors. > >> I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny > >> sacks?) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > /have/ heard people mention using gunny sacks for making a dress, but I > think they may have been trying to pull my leg. But you never know....) Seems unlikely though. Gunny sacks are pretty rough, says he who has tried napping on a few during trashing. > > I recall seeing flour sacks with floral decoration printed on them > > and my mother telling me it was so that poor people could use the > > cloth for clothing. I always thought that this was just for advertisement but I have seen them used to make sheets and pillow cases in the 1950's. By then I think it was more custom than being poor for the people I knew. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >>>> I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny >>>> sacks?) for clothing back in the olden days. Am I misremembering? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> think they may have been trying to pull my leg. But you never >> know....) > Seems unlikely though. Gunny sacks are pretty rough, says he who has > tried napping on a few during trashing. "Trashing"? Note: Someone here did mention gunny sacks being used for Halloween costumes. In thinking about it, that seems right on. >>> I recall seeing flour sacks with floral decoration printed on them >>> and my mother telling me it was so that poor people could use the >>> cloth for clothing. > I always thought that this was just for advertisement but I have seen > them used to make sheets and pillow cases in the 1950's. By then I > think it was more custom than being poor for the people I knew. I would have thought that economy trumped custom in the matter. ICBW (and often am). SignatureMaria Conlon Apologies if I messed up the >>s in this reply. >> >> I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny >> >> sacks?) [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >them used to make sheets and pillow cases in the 1950's. By then I >think it was more custom than being poor for the people I knew. When I was younger we had a children's book about a Depression-era American girl (exotic and interesting to a post-war English child), and in one scene she doesn't get to go to a rich kid's birthday party because she wears flour-sack dresses. I can't remember the author or title, but it may jog someone else's memory. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>> I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny >>>>> sacks?) [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I can't remember the author or title, but it may jog someone else's > memory. I can't recall the fashion mentioned, but there were a couple of books about "Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm", and Shirley Temple portrayed Rebecca in one film about the child. (I think there was a series of books.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd30lKrSCRQ Then there was "The Eight Little Peppers and How they Grew". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031315/ They were poor but moral and staunch, in five films, and, it looks like about 12 books (Wikipedia) Wood Avens filted: >When I was younger we had a children's book about a Depression-era >American girl (exotic and interesting to a post-war English child), [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I can't remember the author or title, but it may jog someone else's >memory. Sounds a bit like "Stella Maris", but that was *way* before the Depression....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Wood Avens filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Sounds a bit like "Stella Maris", but that was *way* before the > Depression....r Do you mean Stella Dallas? (and her lovely daughter Lauren). Pat Durkin filted: >> Wood Avens filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> Depression....r >Do you mean Stella Dallas? (and her lovely daughter Lauren). No, I meant Stella Maris (and her lovely evil twin Unity Blake), although I see I'm way off on the storyline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Maris_(1918_film) ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> I suppose you'll have to imagine it, so I may not be saving you any >> effort: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I think I've heard mention of the use of flour sacks (and gunny > sacks?) for clothing back in the olden days. Am I misremembering? I think the flour sacks served multiple purposes, in addition to being dishtowels. Sometimes they were used as diapers, sometimes as pre-sewn dresses for little tots or as nightdresses. Gunny sacks? I can only recall them being used as shepherds' costumes or robes for the kings in the Christmas pageants. > >As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make towels -- > >especially dish towels. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > department store I'd expect the assistant in the fabric department to > point me to terry towelling rather than to anything else. Same here: my winter dressing-gown is towelling. But we do talk about "Terry nappies" for babies. > I can't imagine anyone making their own dish towels (BrE drying-up > cloths). Neither could I until the day I discovered how much it would cost to replace my worn-out linen ones. A dutiful daughter duly discovered (Anglo-Saxon influence will, I hope, be mentioned in my eulogy, if any) some of the cloth going, if not for a song, then for a shortish aria, and my mother kindly stitched them up. "Tea-towels" in my dialect, though. > I might buy terry towelling, though, not for towels as such > but to make someone a bathrobe, though I'd probably regret it. And I > dimly remember getting it in the distant past in order to make > roller-towels. Yes, my mother did that. A nice royal blue, though the ready-made ones from the Witney Blanket Company (ah, those weren't the days!) were striped. -- Mike. In article <c768c496-8ec2-4f87-a808- 9680ea81b1de@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk says... > > >As several others have said, "toweling" is cloth used to make towels -- > > >especially dish towels. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Same here: my winter dressing-gown is towelling. But we do talk about > "Terry nappies" for babies. But not so often these days. It's all disposables or cloth - which includes Terry, but Terry nappies just aren't that common even for the cloth nappy brigade (and I include myself in that). SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > In article <c768c496-8ec2-4f87-a808- > mike lyle says... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > includes Terry, but Terry nappies just aren't that common even for the > cloth nappy brigade (and I include myself in that). With our first child (who just turned 35), it was almost all cloth diapers, with disposables only for some trips or outings. With the second (who's almost 32), we used disposables almost as often as cloth. With our grandson (age 11-going-on-12), it was all disposables -- his mother was/is a "working mother" (outside the home) as I had not been when our children were small. That is, I had both the time and energy for laundry, etc., as working mothers/parents of today's babies may not. Also: Disposables* may or may not be budget-smart; I don't know what the prices are nowadays. But they /are/ time-savers and work-savers. *OBaue: Is "disposables" a sufficient term (especially in context)? Weren't they called (by consumers) "paper diapers" in the early days? Do parents of babies in today's world ever call "disposables" anything else? Like "Pampers" (a brand name)? Fact(?): Hanging washed diapers on the clothesline in the sunshine was recommended in years past** because the sun helped to bleach whites to a nice, bright, "whiter-than-white" color. ** Another OBaue: When did "passed" become "past" or was it always "past"? SignatureMaria Conlon >With our first child (who just turned 35), it was almost all cloth >diapers, with disposables only for some trips or outings. With the >second (who's almost 32), we used disposables almost as often as cloth. > That is, I had both the time and energy >for laundry, etc., as working mothers/parents of today's babies may not. We used all cloth diapers for our daughter, who is a bit older than your son. We did not have a washer or dryer in our apartment, but someone gave us a counter-top washing machine. It connected to the kitchen sink tap and drained the water down the kitchen sink. It held about a day's dirty diaper output. My wife used that for about a week and then switched to a diaper service. The service took the dirty diapers (we rinsed them out first) and returned cleaned diapers. This required buying more diapers since the pick-ups were weekly. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>With our first child (who just turned 35), it was almost all cloth >>diapers, with disposables only for some trips or outings. With the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > kitchen sink tap and drained the water down the kitchen sink. It held > about a day's dirty diaper output. I was lucky enough to have a washer and dryer from the time we (B. and I) moved into our first house. Before marriage: I was a teenager before my parents got an automatic washer and dryer (with the dryer coming first). Before that, briefly: wringer washer (which my Dad bought and my mother wanted to throw out) and clothesline. And before that: someone who "took in washing" or a laundry service. (We always did the hand-washables at home.) None of that was particularly unusual at the time/place. Also: My parents both worked during that time, and were always "saving up." > My wife used that for about a week and then switched to a diaper > service. The service took the dirty diapers (we rinsed them out > first) and returned cleaned diapers. This required buying more > diapers since the pick-ups were weekly. Logical, of course, though I'd never thought before about a diaper service requiring more diapers. And as for the counter-top washing machine, I've never heard of that. How did it work? Was there something to "agitate"? Lots of wringing out by hand, I'd think. SignatureMaria Conlon >>>With our first child (who just turned 35), it was almost all cloth >>>diapers, with disposables only for some trips or outings. With the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >How did it work? Was there something to "agitate"? Lots of wringing out >by hand, I'd think. We used it for a week, stored it away, and tossed it out when we moved to Chicago. It worked pretty well, but we didn't like the idea of using the kitchen sink to dispose of the waste water. The kitchen sink faucet was the only faucet in the house to which the washer could be connected. It was a miniature electrically-powered washing machine with a thingy in the center that swished around like a regular washing machine. It did not have a spin cycle, so wringing out was required. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Related to this "Towling" thread: http://www.news-record.com/blog/53964/entry/64277 The above is an article called "Clothesline bill hung out to dry." Begin excerpt=== Rep. Pricey Harrison, a Greensboro [NC] Democrat, got a little bill (H 1353) through the House that would prohibit cities and counties from adopting blanket prohibitions on clotheslines. The idea, according to Harrison, is to allow people who want to save energy by hanging out their laundry (rather than use their dryers) even if some folks in the community turn up their nose at the idea. Originally, the bill started out as an effort to keep homeowners associations from adopting restrictive covenants prohibiting clotheslines, but Harrison took that out of the bill after getting a lot of resistance. (Related items here, here and here.) So the bill came before the Senate Commerce Committee today . and it was doomed. There was philosophical opposition, yes.===end excerpt. Clotheslines were mentioned in one of my earlier posts, so the news item caught my eye. Here's the thing: The HomeOwners Association in the subdivision where I live has a rule against clotheslines. I've never brought the matter up at any HOA meetings; instead I just ignore the rule, and no one has said anything about it. But the line I have is small, and was used for years to hang bathing suits and towels on. Now that we've removed [disinstalled?] our pool, the line still comes in handy. How this relates to English usage, I don't know. Maybe: In future years, will "clothesline" be a forgotten word? Or mean something else entirely? SignatureMaria Conlon, signing off for a few hours. >Related to this "Towling" thread: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >How this relates to English usage, I don't know. Maybe: In future years, >will "clothesline" be a forgotten word? Or mean something else entirely? A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a guess that the older someone is the more likely they are to have one (and to use it regularly). There are some places (hifalutin apartment complexes or gated housing developments) where hanging out washing is forbidden (along with ball games, pets, washing the car and so on), but in general people approve of washing-lines, and I imagine there would be considerable resistance to local or town bans; in fact what with increasing environmental awareness I'd expect washing-lines to be encouraged rather than the reverse. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call > clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with increasing environmental awareness I'd expect washing-lines to be > encouraged rather than the reverse. When I met her, Wife was unable to leave the house with washing hanging on the line, even if the washing could not be seen from the road, being in the back garden. This strange state had been passed down from her mother and probably her grandmother. It took me years to fix this. It was nothing to do with any fear of the washing being stolen, but was some sort of ingrained idea that it was "not done". My family, being middle class for generations, couldn't care less. Our guide in Pompeii told us (can't remember why) that tumble driers are not available in Italy because they have sunshine. SignatureDavid the Omrud wrote, in part: > Our guide in Pompeii told us (can't remember why) that tumble driers > are not available in Italy because they have sunshine. He (or she) is a tour guide, and thus encourages tourism thereabouts. That makes sense to me. SignatureMaria Conlon > the Omrud wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > He (or she) is a tour guide, and thus encourages tourism thereabouts. > That makes sense to me. She (for she was, indeed, a she) seemed to be complaining to us that she couldn't buy a tumble drier, which she had become used to when working in the UK. She had the same complaint about electric kettles. SignatureDavid >> the Omrud wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > she couldn't buy a tumble drier, which she had become used to when > working in the UK. Ah. I missed the intent. > She had the same complaint about electric kettles. But not related to sunshine, I presume.... -- Maria Conlon >>> the Omrud wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ah. I missed the intent. Yes, sorry, I didn't explain. >> She had the same complaint about electric kettles. > > But not related to sunshine, I presume.... We've discussed electric kettles at some length in the past - they seem to be a particularly British thing. You can easily buy one in France but most locals don't. SignatureDavid >We've discussed electric kettles at some length in the past - they seem >to be a particularly British thing. You can easily buy one in France >but most locals don't. We have one. They save electricity, if you use electricity to heat water. A stove (BrE cooker) top kettle takes longer to heat up, and wastes energy. It also doesn't switch itself off when the water has boiled. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call >> clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >some sort of ingrained idea that it was "not done". My family, being >middle class for generations, couldn't care less. It was certainly "not done" in my mother's time to hang out washing on any day other than Monday. It was not done to leave delivered milk on the step for an hour rather than take it in first thing in the morning. Although we were not churchgoers my father always wore a collar and tie on Sundays. When the eleven-plus results were announced, the street was subjected to a parade of parents with their kids dressed in their new grammar school uniforms, even though it was summer and school was over for six weeks. I could say that it was a real education growing up on a council estate, except that it wasn't. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call >>> clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the step for an hour rather than take it in first thing in the > morning. I suppose the rationale behind the milk is that it could give an impression that the housewife was not doing her job around the house. In our case it showed that my mother had gone out to work before the milkman came. We may have been middle class but we were not well off. > Although we were not churchgoers my father always wore a > collar and tie on Sundays. My dad still does - not particularly on Sundays, but rather randomly, as far as I can tell. He can't explain why. > When the eleven-plus results were > announced, the street was subjected to a parade of parents with their > kids dressed in their new grammar school uniforms, even though it was > summer and school was over for six weeks. I was taken to see my grandparents in my new uniform, but I think that was in early September. SignatureDavid >>>> A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call >>>> clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >I suppose the rationale behind the milk is that it could give an >impression that the housewife was not doing her job around the house. That was the implication. >In our case it showed that my mother had gone out to work before the >milkman came. We may have been middle class but we were not well off. I'm 17 years older than you, and when I was at school in the 1940s few mothers worked unless they absolutely had to, despite their heavy work involvement during the war when many men were away. This was a working class environment, and for people such as my father, who was a Victorian, there was some sort of belief that a man was not a man unless he could support his family. But needs must. Although I didn't realise it at the time and it was never discussed later, there must have been a financial difficulty starting in 1950, because my mother had an industrial sewing machine installed at home and several times a week I'd cycle to a local clothing factory to collect long johns, into which she'd sew the gussets. From about 1953 they were collected and delivered by car, and the machine was finally removed in 1955 or so, by which time I presume we were okay again. Incidentally, this "working class women mainly staying at home" situation lasted until the early 1960s. During my time as a soft drinks delivery driver, most women were at home during the day and there was surprisingly little back-tracking needed to re-visit customers who were out first time round. >> Although we were not churchgoers my father always wore a >> collar and tie on Sundays. >My dad still does - not particularly on Sundays, but rather randomly, as >far as I can tell. He can't explain why. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I was taken to see my grandparents in my new uniform, but I think that >was in early September. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Incidentally, this "working class women mainly staying at home" > situation lasted until the early 1960s. During my time as a soft > drinks delivery driver, most women were at home during the day and > there was surprisingly little back-tracking needed to re-visit > customers who were out first time round. A Corona Man? You were a Corona Man? We weren't allowed to have Corona delivered - fizzy drinks were strictly regulated to once a month or so, from the corner shop. But we saw the Corona Man delivering to nearby houses and we envied the children there. In about 1960, in our street, milk, bread, fizzy drinks and beer were all delivered to the door. SignatureDavid >> Incidentally, this "working class women mainly staying at home" >> situation lasted until the early 1960s. During my time as a soft [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In about 1960, in our street, milk, bread, fizzy drinks and beer were > all delivered to the door. And coal. SignatureDavid >>> Incidentally, this "working class women mainly staying at home" >>> situation lasted until the early 1960s. During my time as a soft [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > And coal. When I read your previous post, I wanted to add that too, but I think "clean air" might have already come into operation by then. I certainly remember, in the 50s, feeding or at least petting the horses of the milkman, baker and coalman, but while I suppose we must have had coal fires in the 60s, I don't remember the deliveries. Of course, we'd moved house by then, so perhaps that's why my memory is confused (can't be old age, can it?). SignatureRob Bannister >>> In about 1960, in our street, milk, bread, fizzy drinks and beer were >>> all delivered to the door. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > house by then, so perhaps that's why my memory is confused (can't be old > age, can it?). I initially forgot the coal because it was not, of course, delivered to the door. It was carried by the two coalmen around the back of the house to the coal shed (a small room like a cupboard with a door to the back of the house next to the kitchen door). It was my job to count the hundredweight sacks as they were tipped in. 20 sacks for a one-ton delivery, plus a smaller number of sacks of coke which went into a sort of bunker in the garden. My grandmother's house had a coal cellar - the coal was tipped down a manhole in the front garden. Clean air legislation only ever applied to major conurbations - even now we could have a coal fire here if we wanted. SignatureDavid >> Incidentally, this "working class women mainly staying at home" >> situation lasted until the early 1960s. During my time as a soft [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >A Corona Man? You were a Corona Man? No, it was a small, local company, but they were our main competitor. Same principle, but ours was far better pop. >We weren't allowed to have Corona delivered - fizzy drinks were strictly >regulated to once a month or so, from the corner shop. But we saw the >Corona Man delivering to nearby houses and we envied the children there. Same principle. We had one bottle of lemonade a week to have with Sunday lunch. >In about 1960, in our street, milk, bread, fizzy drinks and beer were >all delivered to the door. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call >>>>> clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >there was surprisingly little back-tracking needed to re-visit >customers who were out first time round. I understand the position was different in textile towns (cotton, wool and linen). Much of the work in the mills, etc., was done by women. A very good friend of mine when I lived in Manchester told me that he had been brought up by his grandmother. I think that he was transferred to her care as soon as he was weaned. His mother needed to go back to work. I don't know how common such an arrangement was but I don't think it was remarkable. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [..] >>Incidentally, this "working class women mainly staying at home" >>situation lasted until the early 1960s. During my time as a soft [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I don't know how common such an arrangement was but I don't think it was >remarkable. Nottingham was still, in those days, a textile town, and you're quite right. But our pop delivery rounds didn't go into the centres of large towns during the week; those were covered on Saturday mornings. During the week the rounds covered villages, small towns and large council estates on the edges of towns. Most women in such places found it hard to find work locally. My mother worked as a sewing machinist in various textile companies before she got married. There were probably hundreds of such companies within a few minutes travel from the city centre, most of them involved in the making up of garments from various types of cloth produced elsewhere, such as those mills. My paternal grandfather was a weaver, though, so some cloth was made in the city. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > My mother worked as a sewing machinist > in various textile companies before she got married. Interesting bit of usage there. On this side of the pond, my various inlaws of previous generations who were employed in that capacity were called "stichers" (pronounced non-rhotically, as this was in southeastern Massachusetts). SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> My mother worked as a sewing machinist >> in various textile companies before she got married. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >called "stichers" (pronounced non-rhotically, as this was in >southeastern Massachusetts). My mother employed a seamstress in her home baby clothes business. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> My mother worked as a sewing machinist > >> in various textile companies before she got married. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > My mother employed a seamstress in her home baby clothes business. I think you want alt.humor.trumpet.baroque SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > I'm 17 years older than you, and when I was at school in the 1940s few > mothers worked unless they absolutely had to, despite their heavy work [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > there was surprisingly little back-tracking needed to re-visit > customers who were out first time round. Possibly depends on where you grew up. Where OldBloke grew up, he started school in 1959 and his mother went back to work. This was the case for most of the women in the area (and most of them to the same place). Grandmothers looked after children after school and in the holidays, or mothers who had pre-school chldren still at home. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> I'm 17 years older than you, and when I was at school in the 1940s few >> mothers worked unless they absolutely had to, despite their heavy work [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >place). Grandmothers looked after children after school and in the >holidays, or mothers who had pre-school chldren still at home. OldBloke can't be that old, then. If you really mean "first started school" in 1959 then he's little older than the Omrud. I started school in 1945 and the world changed vastly in the ensuing 14 years. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > >> I'm 17 years older than you, and when I was at school in the 1940s few > >> mothers worked unless they absolutely had to, despite their heavy work [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > OldBloke can't be that old, then. If you really mean "first started Depends on your view point... > school" in 1959 then he's little older than the Omrud. I started That's right. > school in 1945 and the world changed vastly in the ensuing 14 years. Can I just ask, are we talking about working class women, or working class mothers? Because working class women were out at work - they were nurses, dressmakers, teachers, mill hands, shop assistants, they were in the armed forces etc. It was working class mothers who were at home, and even then, they were often at home because of childcare, rather than because they didn't want or need a job or couldn't get one. In the 1930s, at least 30% of women in Britain over the school-leaving age were in paid employment. In 1951, it was 45%. Now it's over 70%. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call > clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a > guess that the older someone is the more likely they are to have one > (and to use it regularly). Agreed. Most of today's young folks grew up with dryers (which were, of course, godsends of a sort). > .....There are some places (hifalutin apartment > complexes or gated housing developments) where hanging out washing is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with increasing environmental awareness I'd expect washing-lines to be > encouraged rather than the reverse. Again, I agree, except.... "environmental awareness" can mean being aware that the outdoors environment carries all sorts of germs and bird doo-doo and the like. And rain discourages fabrics from drying. Anyway, I like having a clothesline, and also like having a dryer. And having done a fair bit of washing-by-hand (not necessarily of "hand-washables/delicates") in my time, I think washing machines are great. There seem to be environmental no-nos involved with everything. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." SignatureMaria Conlon > A lot of UK households have washing-lines (which we might also call > clothes-lines), but I have no idea what percentage, and I'd hazard a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with increasing environmental awareness I'd expect washing-lines to be > encouraged rather than the reverse. Around here, with the terraced houses and narrow streets, it's not unusual to see clothes lines strung from house to house across the alley, with washing pegged out most of the year. Some of our friends live in a house which backs onto a river. They have no garden but like all the neighbours they run a line across the river to one of the trees in the clough. Everyone has a little pulley arrangement so they can string their laundry out and pull it in when it's dry (or the rain starts, depending on which happens first). SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > Related to this "Towling" thread: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > years, will "clothesline" be a forgotten word? Or mean something > else entirely? It will have to be forgotten on at least one other front: American football discourages a tackle involving an extended arm to the neck of a runner or blocker, an action which results in an arresting development similar to running around a corner and meeting a washing-line at Adam's-apple height. Called "clotheslining" and quite dangerous. I saw it happen in not-football when a co-worker was chasing a miscreant, came 'round a corner and caught a guy-wire at chest height. Instant supine. SignatureFrank ess >How this relates to English usage, I don't know. Maybe: In future years, >will "clothesline" be a forgotten word? Or mean something else entirely? Not forgotten as long as they play professional (Am) football. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>How this relates to English usage, I don't know. Maybe: In future >>years, >>will "clothesline" be a forgotten word? Or mean something else >>entirely? > > Not forgotten as long as they play professional (Am) football. You and Frank brought up something I was unaware of (that is, the football usage of "clothesline"). My husband probably knows about that usage, but I didn't discuss the topic with him, figuring that he would not be interested in a discussion of clotheslines. SignatureMaria Conlon >>>How this relates to English usage, I don't know. Maybe: In future >>>years, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >usage, but I didn't discuss the topic with him, figuring that he would >not be interested in a discussion of clotheslines. Oddly, although being British and living in the UK and not having any interest in (American) football, I had come across that usage of "clothesline". I suppose it is the sort of usage that is so unexpected that it sticks in the memory. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>How this relates to English usage, I don't know. Maybe: In future years, >>will "clothesline" be a forgotten word? Or mean something else entirely? > > Not forgotten as long as they play professional (Am) football. Curiously, it was only the other day that San Francisco Giants *baseball* announcer Duane Kuiper described a particular hit as a "clothesline", then mused on whether any younger listeners would even know the word. (It is reasonably common in baseball parlance, though "rope" or occasionally the colorfully descriptive "frozen rope" are more frequent.) SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ >> In article <c768c496-8ec2-4f87-a808- >> mike lyle says... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > diapers, with disposables only for some trips or outings. With the > second (who's almost 32), we used disposables almost as often as cloth. Our children are a year older than each of yours. For the older one we used terry nappies with muslin liners to start with and then disposable liners when they appeared. I remember nappy buckets and endless laundry in our old twin tub machine but I did have a tumble dryer. The health visitor arrived one day and told me all about her time as a missionary in Africa where she claimed nappies were unheard of and the babies were hung up in palm leaf hammocks until they were toilet trained. Three years later, disposable nappies were available but they were like large sanitary towels and tended to leak far more than cloth. But then we met our friends who were over here with the USAF and they brought us Pampers from the PX - and life became much easier. > With our grandson (age 11-going-on-12), it was all disposables -- his > mother was/is a "working mother" (outside the home) as I had not been [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Also: Disposables* may or may not be budget-smart; I don't know what the > prices are nowadays. But they /are/ time-savers and work-savers. They are also major pollutants. [..] SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > > In article <c768c496-8ec2-4f87-a808- > > mike lyle says... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > when our children were small. That is, I had both the time and energy > for laundry, etc., as working mothers/parents of today's babies may not. We managed. 6-8 nappies a day, wait till the bucket was full, do a load of laundry. No tumble dryer required - the clothes horse dried most nappies within 24 hours and in winter the radiators saw most loads done and away in six. > Also: Disposables* may or may not be budget-smart; I don't know what the > prices are nowadays. But they /are/ time-savers and work-savers. Definitely the latter two. As for cheaper, I'm not convinced. Most of the cloth-users I know spend a lot but that's because there are so many seriously cute cloth nappies out there. I am a cheapskate and probably spent £300-400 on 3 years worth of nappies - ten really nice shaped ones (like disposables only, er, not) and 24 cheap flat ones, plus covers. When I'd finished with them, they all got passed on to other families, so have done at least one other child. Washing cost around £2 a month (looking at how my water and electricity bills changed when we stopped using nappies). Disposables cost, here, around £6 for a week's worth of nappies. That's about £300 per year. > *OBaue: Is "disposables" a sufficient term (especially in context)? > Weren't they called (by consumers) "paper diapers" in the early days? Do > parents of babies in today's world ever call "disposables" anything > else? Like "Pampers" (a brand name)? Around here the generic term is still disposables. > Fact(?): Hanging washed diapers on the clothesline in the sunshine was > recommended in years past** because the sun helped to bleach whites to a > nice, bright, "whiter-than-white" color. This is still recommended. I'm not convinced, but that may be because we just don't get enough sun where I live! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Fact(?): Hanging washed diapers on the clothesline in the sunshine was >> recommended in years past** because the sun helped to bleach whites to a >> nice, bright, "whiter-than-white" color. > >This is still recommended. I'm not convinced, but that may be because we >just don't get enough sun where I live! It was recommended here for a different reason -- the ultraviolet in the sun's rays helps to kill germs. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >In article <c768c496-8ec2-4f87-a808- >9680ea81b1de@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>, mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >includes Terry, but Terry nappies just aren't that common even for the >cloth nappy brigade (and I include myself in that). As an aside, disposables piss me off because people who don't know better put them down the loo. In my close we have a private sewer that daisy-chains via numbers 1 to 8 on one side, and another one for numbers 9 to 24. They are both connected to the public sewer in front of number 24. I am on the longer one and each of us just had to pay the council an unblocking charge. Yes, the thing was blocked with disposables, face-wipes and other things that don't biodegrade quickly or at all. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > >But not so often these days. It's all disposables or cloth - which > >includes Terry, but Terry nappies just aren't that common even for the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > disposables, face-wipes and other things that don't biodegrade quickly > or at all. Yes, that pisses me off too. This is one that for the most part women are responsible for and need educating about. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > Note that terry cloth, used for most bath towels and wash cloths, is > not generally called "toweling." It's just called terry [cloth]. Really? It's nearly always called "terry towelling" here. Just plain "Terry" is the bloke who lives around the corner. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> Note that terry cloth, used for most bath towels and wash cloths, is >> not generally called "toweling." It's just called terry [cloth]. > > Really? It's nearly always called "terry towelling" here. Usage varies from place to place. In my area, people don't say "terry towel[l]ing." > Just plain "Terry" is the bloke who lives around the corner. Boy, he sure gets around. He's living in Tennessee and is married to my cousin now. Nice guy. SignatureMaria Conlon Maria Conlon filted: >>> Note that terry cloth, used for most bath towels and wash cloths, is >>> not generally called "toweling." It's just called terry [cloth]. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Boy, he sure gets around. He's living in Tennessee and is married to my >cousin now. Nice guy. That boy Terry's not the kind to mess around and change his mind; Terry is as tough as Marlon Brando....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Last night a server in a restaurant in the Virginia suburbs of >Washington, D.C., didn't understand me when I kept trying to tell her [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Is it an archaism? A regionalism? If it's a regionalism, what is the >extent of its use? I grew up in the New York area. To me it is the kind of cloth out of which towels are made. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.