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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Grammar of "since" in the Pallisers
The BBC adaptation of Trollope's novels had Lady Hartletop say: "... I have known the duke since forty years." http://cjoint.com/?hjk0sKm0HV (the link is valid for about a fortnight only.) The same incident related in /Phineas Redux/ had Lady Hartletop moan: "I have known him for more than forty years". Do you find, as I do, "since forty years" rather ungrammatical? How would you account for it? The snippet I'm giving a link to is very short, but it hasn't been cut in the middle of a sentence. Lady Hartletop is overcome by emotion and doesn't add anything after "since forty years".  SignatureIsabelle Cecchini On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > The BBC adaptation of Trollope's novels had Lady Hartletop say: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Do you find, as I do, "since forty years" rather ungrammatical? A bit old-fashioned and now dialect, but not ungrammatical; I'm sure I've seen it in old writing. > How would you account for it? French influence, perhaps? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > A bit old-fashioned and now dialect, but not ungrammatical; I'm sure > I've seen it in old writing. Sounds Victorian to me. SignatureDavid Isabelle Cecchini: >>> "... I have known the duke since forty years." ... >>> Do you find, as I do, "since forty years" rather ungrammatical? In modern English it is an error, but it's a usage error, not a grammatical one. "Since" is a preposition in expressions like "since last year", but its object cannot be a length of time. Harvey Van Sickle: >> A bit old-fashioned and now dialect, but not ungrammatical; I'm sure >> I've seen it in old writing. "A bit old-fashioned" is an understatement. It's obsolete. "David": > Sounds Victorian to me. I'd've guessed older than that. SignatureMark Brader "Sixty years old and still pulling a train! Toronto That's more than I can say about most msb@vex.net people I know." -- Frimbo > Sounds Victorian to me. I've heard it before, and Victorian seems appropriate if we look at these two samples: ----- Records of travels in Turkey, Greece, &c. and of a cruise in the Black sea ... - Page 124 by Adolphus Slade - 1854 Since forty years the condition of the Greeks had been sensibly ameliorating. ---- France, Social, Literary, Political - Page 38 by Henry Lytton Bulwer Dalling and Bulwer - France - 1857 The world has completely changed since forty years ; the middle classes are not all society, but they form its force, they have a constant interest in order ... [He's translating, it seems, a conversation from French] ---- The occurences of "since forty years the" are very rare at Google Books after 1900. I chose "the" as continuation in order to avoid all the "since forty years ago" which are correct. This is perhaps the only recent one: ---- Devil Proposes, Man Disposes - Page 15 by Francis Obimma - Fiction - 2005 - 523 pages It had been those fiery eyes that always bored into him like laser beams since forty years. The whole plan to fulfill that very special will of Allah as ... http://books.google.com/books?id=7NYXMOR0AkgC&pg=PA15&dq=%22since+forty+years+th e%22&lr= ---- Looking at the page at this link, it seems to me as intentional "period-sounding." Marius Hancu > On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > A bit old-fashioned and now dialect, but not ungrammatical; In fact in the EFL context most teachers would say this *is* ungrammatical; we teach that 'since' only works with a point in time (Tuesday; 1946; last summer) but if you want to talk about a period of time (ten minutes; ages; the last ten years) you need to use 'for'. This is not to say, of course, that there aren't some native speakers out there that do it differently, but I wouldn't necessarily want them round my students... DC -- >On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >French influence, perhaps? But the point is surely that the phrase is *not* in the original; why would a TV adaptation suddenly produce old-fashioned or French-influenced language? I am a constant reader of Trollope and of many other nineteenth-centruy writers, and I have never seen the phrase used in writing of that period. I don't think it was grammatical then nor is it grammatical now. Someone will now produce an example, of course. "Forty years since" is common enough, of course, though a bit old-fashioned. Katy >> On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > "Forty years since" is common enough, of course, though a bit > old-fashioned. As is forty years on when afar etc etc SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > French influence, perhaps? Quite possibly. I have to confess that I never noticed that construction as a feature of Victorian English. It simply sounds to me as if they had hired a German script writer: "I am living in Britain since forty years, but I still learn your language." SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > German script writer: "I am living in Britain since forty years, but > I still learn your language." They actually hired Simon Raven who was a pretty decent writer. See my theory above that the actor got it wrong but it was cheaper to let it pass than re-shoot. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >> On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > See my theory above that the actor got it wrong but it was cheaper to let it > pass than re-shoot. They could have edited the sound track instead. Very few viewers would notice the short departure from lip-synchronicity. My theory is they just didn't notice at all, Jan >>>> On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote >>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Very few viewers would notice the short departure > from lip-synchronicity. More money SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>>> On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > More money Not much. The Germans and the French can afford to dub it all. Surely the BBC could afford one line? Jan >>>>>> On 12 Jul 2009, Isabelle Cecchini wrote >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Not much. The Germans and the French can afford to dub it all. > Surely the BBC could afford one line? Unless you've already hired the sound editor and booked the studio time and the actor, it's fiendishly expensive. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >I have to confess that I never noticed that construction as a feature of >Victorian English. It simply sounds to me as if they had hired a German >script writer: "I am living in Britain since forty years, but I still >learn your language." I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thought that. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > The BBC adaptation of Trollope's novels had Lady Hartletop say: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Do you find, as I do, "since forty years" rather ungrammatical? How > would you account for it? Clearly, she is remembering her dissolute youth in the fleshpots of Choisy-le-Roi and is thinking "Depuis quarante ans" which comes out as "Since forty years". As you say, this part of the Pallisers is based on Phineas Redux' "I have known him for more than forty years," so the construction seems to be either an attempt by the writer of the screenplay to inject a bit of spurious period feel or the actress stumbled over her lines and they couldn't afford to reshoot. English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". There is also a construction "I knew him forty years since." SignatureJohn Dean Oxford <snipped> > English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". I have a question about the above mentioned sentence.("I have known him since forty years ago") I heard it from more than one Americans saying "since" can't go with "ago"("... since <a time period> ago." ; someone even dubbed it "Chinglish"), so I'm curious to know if there's a pondian difference in this usage. --------- I checked Fowler's usage book (and some others), and the only pattern mentioned was " .... ago since ....", so I don't have any questions about this specific structure. SignatureDJ ><snipped> >> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >"Chinglish"), so I'm curious to know if there's a pondian difference in >this usage. Sounds fairly normal to me (Br.E). It would be more likely to take the form "I've known him since forty years ago when we used to meet behind the bike sheds", rather than the bare statement, but there's nothing wrong with it. Katy >Sounds fairly normal to me (Br.E). It would be more likely to take the form >"I've known him since forty years ago when we used to meet behind the bike >sheds", rather than the bare statement, but there's nothing wrong with it. Interesting use of "bare" and "behind the bike sheds" in one sentence! SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Sounds fairly normal to me (Br.E). It would be more likely to take the form >>"I've known him since forty years ago when we used to meet behind the bike >>sheds", rather than the bare statement, but there's nothing wrong with it. > >Interesting use of "bare" and "behind the bike sheds" in one sentence! You think I do these things by accident? Katy >>>Sounds fairly normal to me (Br.E). It would be more likely to take the form >>>"I've known him since forty years ago when we used to meet behind the bike [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >You think I do these things by accident? Accidents can happen behind the bike sheds. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>Sounds fairly normal to me (Br.E). It would be more likely to take the form >>>>"I've known him since forty years ago when we used to meet behind the bike [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >Accidents can happen behind the bike sheds. Particularly if you're bare. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >><snipped> >>> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >"I've known him since forty years ago when we used to meet behind the bike >sheds", rather than the bare statement, but there's nothing wrong with it. Yes, but you've added "ago", and that makes it OK. "Forty years ago" is definite a point in time, so "since" is correct. "For forty years" (meaning "during forty years") is a period of time and, these days, we would not, in BrE, use "since". SignatureIan >>><snipped> >>>> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > (meaning "during forty years") is a period of time and, these days, we > would not, in BrE, use "since". As I think I've already said, I don't think we ever have. The slightly old-fashioned (and, or, dialectal) form with "since" in that I know is "I was here forty years since", meaning ago. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>> <snipped> >>>>> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > slightly old-fashioned (and, or, dialectal) form with "since" in that > I know is "I was here forty years since", meaning ago. I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. Was that "with you" deliberate, or are those the lyrics you know? I've heard, rather than "with you," the use of "yet" or "too." Take note: It's only 170 days until News Year's Eve. SignatureMaria Conlon >> I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. > > Was that "with you" deliberate, or are those the lyrics you know? I've > heard, rather than "with you," the use of "yet" or "too." I wasn't trying to quote the lyrics, I was just alluding. FWIW, I know "We'll tak' a cup o' kindness yet, for auld lang syne" Have a right good willy waught! SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I wasn't trying to quote the lyrics, I was just alluding. > FWIW, I know "We'll tak' a cup o' kindness yet, for auld lang syne" Okay. I thought that, but.... > Have a right good willy waught! Have a what? (Is it legal?) SignatureMaria Conlon >>>> I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Have a what? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Lang_Syne#Lyrics > (Is it legal?) Have I ever led you astray ...? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>> I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Lang_Syne#Lyrics I gather it means a good-will draught, and I gather /that/ means "let's have a drink." (Is that so?) >> (Is it legal?) > > Have I ever led you astray ...? Probably not. I don't think you've tried. SignatureMaria Conlon. Never led astray... unwillingly. >>>>>> I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I gather it means a good-will draught, and I gather /that/ means > "let's have a drink." (Is that so?) Yes - a drink for good luck >>> (Is it legal?) >> >> Have I ever led you astray ...? > > Probably not. I don't think you've tried. I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that you never even noticed ... SignatureJohn Dean Oxford "John Dean" wrote: >>> Have I ever led you astray ...? >> >> Probably not. I don't think you've tried. > > I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that you never even noticed ... <laugh> I'da* noticed. *think woulda/shoulda/coulda (and maybe Ida woulda noticed, too). SignatureMaria Conlon Quoth "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net>, and I quote: >>>>> <snipped> >>>>>> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. Just as long as you don't pronounce it "zyne". SignatureJames > Quoth "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net>, and I quote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Just as long as you don't pronounce it "zyne". Heh. Remember Brenda trying to get the hang of the crossed arms thing with Cherie in the Millennium Dome? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> Quoth "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net>, and I quote: >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >Remember Brenda trying to get the hang of the crossed arms thing with Cherie >in the Millennium Dome? I understand that Brenda was in the right. The problem was not getting the hang of it, but that it was happening one verse too early. I read an explanation later that the crossing of arms does not traditionally happen until the second verse. Cherie and the rest of the plebs went for it during the first verse. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Quoth "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net>, and I quote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >happen until the second verse. Cherie and the rest of the plebs went for >it during the first verse. The "immemorial Scottish tradition" of singing the song at New Year is actually American; it was invented by Guy Lombardo in 1929 and was long unknown outside New York City. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>>> Quoth "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net>, and I quote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > actually American; it was invented by Guy Lombardo in 1929 and was > long unknown outside New York City. Oh yeah? Sez you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auld_Lang_Syne#History "Canadian band leader Guy Lombardo is often credited with popularising the use of the song at New Year's celebrations in America, through his annual broadcasts on radio and television, beginning in 1929. The song became his trademark. In addition to his live broadcasts, Lombardo recorded the song more than once. His first recording was in 1939. A later recording on September 29, 1947 was issued as a single by Decca Records as catalog #24260.[6] However, earlier newspaper articles describe revellers on both sides of the Atlantic singing the song to usher in the New Year: "Holiday Parties at Lenox" (Massachusetts, USA) (1896) - The company joined hands in the great music room at midnight and sang "Auld Lang Syne" as the last stroke of 12 sounded and the new year came in.[7] "New Year's Eve in London" (London, England) (1910) - Usual Customs Observed by People of All Classes. The passing of the old year was celebrated in London much as usual. The Scottish residents gathered outside of St. Paul's Church and sang "Auld Lang Syne" as the last stroke of 12 sounded from the great bell.[8] " Note, BTW, if Guy Lombardo *had* invented it in 1929, it would be Canadian, not American. He didn't become a Yank until 1938. (Clue: His band was called the Royal Canadians). SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Quoth "John Dean", and I quote: > >> I'll take a cup of kindness with you, for auld lang syne. > > Just as long as you don't pronounce it "zyne". What's wrong with "zyne"? It sort of comes out that way innocently. Maybe something to do with the preceding hard g? SignatureMaria Conlon >>><snipped> >>>> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >Yes, but you've added "ago", and that makes it OK. "Forty years ago" is I didn't add it. John added "ago" (I think), and someone else asked a question about the new phrase. I was answering that question; we'd long since dealt with the original one. Katy >> <snipped> >>> English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Katy Thank you (for both forms). -- DJ > > The BBC adaptation of Trollope's novels had Lady Hartletop say: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > English would more correctly have "I have known him since forty years ago". > There is also a construction "I knew him forty years since." The most idiomatic English to my ear would be "I have known him for forty years", and I don't _think_ that this is at all pondial. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > The BBC adaptation of Trollope's novels had Lady Hartletop say: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Hartletop is overcome by emotion and doesn't add anything after "since > forty years". It's one of those things that I see as an absolute marker of non-native English. I'm really quite astonished to find it in Trollope (is it in the actual novel?). SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > (is it in the actual novel?). Then Lady Hartletop threw herself upon a sofa, and began to weep piteously. “I have known him for more than forty years,” she moaned, through her choking tears. Lady Glencora’s heart was softened, and she was kind and womanly; but she would not give way about the Duke. It would, as she knew, have been useless, as the Duke had declared that he would see no one except his eldest nephew, his nephew’s wife, and Madame Goesler. Anthony Trollope, Phineas Redux, Chapter 25 http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/trollope/anthony/redux/chapter25.html >> (is it in the actual novel?). > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/t/trollope/anthony/redux/chapter25.html So it sounds like an infelicity - if not downright illiteralitism (and I'd vote for the latter myself) - by the adaptor. I'm relieved, and depressed. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >It's one of those things that I see as an absolute marker of non-native >English. I'm really quite astonished to find it in Trollope (is it in >the actual novel?). No, and I don't believe it's anywhere else in Trollope, either. If it was ever grammatical English (which I very much doubt, although some others here seem to think it was), it certainly was not so in the nineteenth century. I think the BBC just messed up. Katy >Do you find, as I do, "since forty years" rather ungrammatical? How >would you account for it? The snippet I'm giving a link to is very >short, but it hasn't been cut in the middle of a sentence. Lady >Hartletop is overcome by emotion and doesn't add anything after "since >forty years". It seems to be a common error among German speakers, who also tend to use "already" in contexts that sound strange to native English speakers. . SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk On Jul 12, 5:02 am, Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecch...@wanadoo.fr.invalid> wrote: > The BBC adaptation of Trollope's novels had Lady Hartletop say: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Do you find, as I do, "since forty years" rather ungrammatical? Yes but quite common for francophones so it may have been more common in English then. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada Thank you, dear aue, for your thoughts on "since forty years". It would seem to be a case of the BBC out-Trolloping Trollope. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini > Thank you, dear aue, for your thoughts on "since forty years". > > It would seem to be a case of the BBC out-Trolloping Trollope. Well put! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) |
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