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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009The Twelfth of July
Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. Here in Northern Ireland it is customary for the Orange Order to parade on the Twelfth. However, being a Protestant organisation they will not parade on the Christian Sabbath, so this year the Twelfth is on the 13th. A related custom is to have many massive bonfires on the night of the 11th July, the Eleventh Night. This leads to a problem when the Twelfth is on the 13th. Is the Eleventh Night on the 11th or the 12th? There is no central organisation for these bonfires. They are local initiatives. Some groups choose the 11th and others the 12th. The week in which the Twelfth falls is known as the 12th week in July, and the two weeks surrounding the 12th are known as the 12th fortnight. Outsiders can be very perplexed when hearing of "the 12th week in July" and even more so "the 12th fortnight in July". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth It's similar to the British Guy Faukes Bonfire Night and fireworks (5 Nov). Nowadays, for organised Guy Faukes events, the preferred day tends to be a Saturday. This is usually the one nearest to 5 Nov, but is sometimes simply the Saturday before or after and, on occasions, even the nearest Sunday. And, of course, it might be on the actual day itself, except when the venue was already been taken by some other event, in which case the Guy Faukes celebrations might be held on the day before or after 5 Nov. As a result, we can now annually enjoy something like a week and a half of Guy Faukes fireworks going off within earshot every evening. SignatureIan >>Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >As a result, we can now annually enjoy something like a week and a half >of Guy Faukes fireworks going off within earshot every evening. In Northern Ireland fireworks are used privately and in public displays on Halloween. Some kids manage to get hold of small fireworks and start "practising" about three months in advance. Guy Fawkes night is not celebrated in NI except on some of the army bases. The kids in soldiers families from elsewhere in the UK expect fireworks on the 5th November so diplays are officially organised. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Outsiders can be very perplexed when hearing of "the 12th week in July" >and even more so "the 12th fortnight in July". Nat King Cole would have been pleased.... SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Nat King Cole would have been pleased.... Indeed. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > > Here in Northern Ireland it is customary for the Orange Order to parade > on the Twelfth. However, being a Protestant organisation they will not > parade on the Christian Sabbath, so this year the Twelfth is on the > 13th. Do you still march through the Catholic neighborhoods? July 12th is also the decisive day of WWII in Europe. The Germans failed at Prokorovka during the Kursk offensive and the big retreat began. >> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Do you still march through the Catholic neighborhoods? I don't march! I sometimes go out to spectate. My understanding is that the parades are not deliberately routed so as to go through Catholic neighbourhoods. The routes are customary, "traditional" as the parade organisers describe them. In a few cases Catholics/Nationalists/Republicans have moved into or adjacent to areas through which the parades pass. Some Catholics/Nationalists/Republicans have chosen to make a big fuss about this. These seem to be working class areas. The parades go through religiously mixed middle class areas without any problem. >July 12th is also the decisive day of WWII in Europe. >The Germans failed at Prokorovka during the Kursk offensive and the big >retreat began. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>The Germans failed at Prokorovka during the Kursk offensive and the big >>retreat began. The point of the parades was to let the Catholics know who was top dog. >>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > The point of the parades was to let the Catholics know who was top dog. There are many varying opinions on that. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> > There are many varying opinions on that. Actually only two. Denial and the truth. >>>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Actually only two. >Denial and the truth. I won't pursue this because it is seriously off-topic (even by the standards of AUE). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >>>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I won't pursue this because it is seriously off-topic (even by the > standards of AUE). Good man. But I will mention that American views about places beyond their borders are often, um, remarkable. -- Mike. >>>>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >I won't pursue this because it is seriously off-topic (even by the >standards of AUE). Ray is marching to a different drummer. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Ray is marching to a different drummer. I have many cousins in Ireland, all Catholics, who don't see it Peter's way. >>>>>>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. >>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > >I have many cousins in Ireland, all Catholics, who don't see it Peter's way. Yes, I know. I was referring to the Lambeg drums. The ones your cousins don't march to. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Ray O'Hara set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: >>> The point of the parades was to let the Catholics know who was top dog. >>> >> There are many varying opinions on that. > > Actually only two. > Denial and the truth. It's "the one lot" marching through areas where "the other lot" live. Which lot is which doesn't matter, either way it's potential TROUBLE. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply >Actually only two. >Denial and the truth. Since there are tweo ways of looking at it, I make that four. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >>>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Actually only two. > Denial and the truth. The truth isn't an opinion, Jan >The truth isn't an opinion, "The truth will set you free." I'm sure there are opinions on what is true. > >The truth isn't an opinion, > > "The truth will set you free." Yes, but which truth? > I'm sure there are opinions on what is true. The problem are people like Ray who think that their opinions are the truth, Jan Signature"Seek the company of those who are searching for the truth, and avoid those who have found it." (Vaclav Havel) >> >The truth isn't an opinion, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The problem are people like Ray who think > that their opinions are the truth, Well, their opinions are their opinions, and thus very likely truthful opinions. (Maybe not "true facts, of course.) If they merely, and thoughtlessly, repeated the opinions of others, then the truthfulness of said opinions would have to be questioned. No? SignatureMaria Conlon >> >The truth isn't an opinion, >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The problem are people like Ray who think >that their opinions are the truth, The problem are .. ? >> >The truth isn't an opinion, >> >> "The truth will set you free." > >Yes, but which truth? There you have it. Truth isn't absolute. A distinction can be made between truth and facts. Facts by themselves mean little; we hope to find truth through their interpretation, but interpretation does make truth an opinion. >> I'm sure there are opinions on what is true. > >The problem are people like Ray who think >that their opinions are the truth, I don't know how to respond decisively. What is true appears to be a matter of consensus when it is applied to science. What is individually true doesn't experience rigorous application of objective criticism. What it all amounts to, for me, is that truth is not immutable; it changes with experience and information. Ray's opinion may be his truth. My opinions are my truths. I repeat, truth isn't absolute. > >>>> Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > > There are many varying opinions on that. On who was the top dog, or on what the point of the parade was? (Both, I expect.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Outsiders can be very perplexed when hearing of "the 12th week in July" > and even more so "the 12th fortnight in July". This may be covered by a saying from American sports: "It's going to be a long season!" SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > >Here in Northern Ireland it is customary for the Orange Order to parade >on the Twelfth. However, being a Protestant organisation they will not >parade on the Christian Sabbath, so this year the Twelfth is on the >13th. A TV listings magazine has misunderstood that this year the Twelfth is on the 13th. An entry for this evening has: 10.35 The Twelfth Highlights from yesterday's parades. That should be "today's". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > > Here in Northern Ireland it is customary for the Orange Order to parade > on the Twelfth. However, being a Protestant organisation they will not > parade on the Christian Sabbath, so this year the Twelfth is on the > 13th. The Orange Parade, led by King Billy on a white horse, was traditionally enacted in Canada for about a century (and was the first item of non-English Canadian folklore I encountered in Kirkland Lake, Ontario, in 1959) but nowadays seems practically extinct (in Canada.) So too are the similar Catholic traditions (e.g. the Corpus Christi procession in Montreal, when half the city population would march through the streets, led by the cardinal, cheered on by the other half. This was notably recreated for the movie The Crime of Ovide Plouffe (1984) http://www.film.com/movies/the-crime-of-ovide-plouffe/14503803 but had by then already vanished. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >The Orange Parade, led by King Billy on a white horse, was >traditionally enacted in Canada for about a century (and was >the first item of non-English Canadian folklore I encountered >in Kirkland Lake, Ontario, in 1959) but nowadays seems >practically extinct (in Canada.) There were Orange delegates from Canada in Belfast for a World meeting of Orange leaders. One was Dennis Glazier of the Ontario West Grand Orange Lodge. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > > Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ovide Plouffe (1984)http://www.film.com/movies/the-crime-of-ovide-plouffe/14503803 > but had by then already vanished. My father used to tell the tale of the Orange Parade in Perth Ontario that was having a problem getting enough people. The local Catholic priest helpfully started a rumour that the Catholics were going to disrupt the parade. Lots of people showed up and a good time apparently was had by all. When this supposedly happened I don't know but quite possibly before the WW1. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >Today is July 12, the Twelfth of July. > >Here in Northern Ireland it is customary for the Orange Order to parade >on the Twelfth. However, being a Protestant organisation they will not >parade on the Christian Sabbath, so this year the Twelfth is on the >13th. Oh, Joy! It seems that it is not only outsiders who can be confused about the fact that this year the Twelfth is on the Thirteenth. Background: In Northern Ireland the organisers of a parade or procession need to get permission for the parade from an official body named the Parades Commission[1]. A report in this evening's local paper says: An Orange Order Lodge risked missing out on the chance to parade on the biggest day in the loyalist marching season because it forgot when the Twelfth of July was being held. Orangemen in Ballykilbeg, County Down, applied to the Parades Commission to march on July 12 but forgot that because it was a Sunday the entire Orange Order had moved its parades to Monday, July 13. .... It might take them a few years to live that down. [1] http://www.paradescommission.org/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) |
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