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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Eeny Meeny
What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of English to another, please mention it. A phrase I've heard is: Eeny meeny miny mo, Catch a rabbit by the toe, If it hollers let'im go, Eeny meeny miny mo. Farhad In article <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, > What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for > a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If it hollers let'im go, > Eeny meeny miny mo. This is a cleaned-up version of the one I heard as a kid (in England). At that time no one had a problem with the "n-word" instead of "rabbit."  Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones In message <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, Farhad <fvafajoo@gmail.com> writes >What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for >a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If it hollers let'im go, >Eeny meeny miny mo. The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be: "Eeny meeny miny mo, Catch a nigger by the toe, If he screams, let'im go, Eeny meeny miny mo." Although no harm was meant by it, the use of word "nigger" is now completely politically incorrect (as is the whole idea of treating someone with so much disrespect, just because of his race). The offending word has therefore been replaced with a variety of alternatives, and "rabbit" is as good as any. But I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak the rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my memory banks, and cannot be altered or erased. SignatureIan >In message ><c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >offending word has therefore been replaced with a variety of >alternatives, and "rabbit" is as good as any. Speciesism! >But I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak the >rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my memory >banks, and cannot be altered or erased. Ditto. Of course, at the time I learnt the rhyme there were no n-word type persons around to be caught by the toe. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >In message > ><c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Of course, at the time I learnt the rhyme there were no n-word type > persons around to be caught by the toe. Depending on one's dialect, there were in Aus in my time, and the rhyme was (unusually, I'm sure) deprecated in my family. But what interests me most about this is the way "nigger" has in some way become a tabu word like "f.ck", not a tabu word like "spic": many people feel they have to say "the n-word", like "the f-word", but not "the s-word". Tabus and euphemisms move in mysterious ways: I remember Muslim girls in Reading who'd been taught not only that one mustn't eat pigs or use their skins, but that it was rude to say the /word/ --"There's a picture of a...hum-hum in that book". -- Mike. > Tabus and euphemisms move in mysterious ways: I remember Muslim > girls in Reading who'd been taught not only that one mustn't eat > pigs or use their skins, but that it was rude to say the /word/ > --"There's a picture of a...hum-hum in that book". So also with orthodox Jews. When speaking Yiddish, they used to say "dover akher" (from Hebrew, literally "another thing") instead of "khazer" (pig). Calling a person a dover akher was rather strong language, pretty much like "swine" in English. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: A lot of what people do doesn't make sense even as :|| ||: foolishness. :|| >> Tabus and euphemisms move in mysterious ways: I remember Muslim >> girls in Reading who'd been taught not only that one mustn't eat [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"khazer" (pig). Calling a person a dover akher was rather strong >language, pretty much like "swine" in English. When my daughter was in Grade 1 in an Anglican church school the class teacher asked a Muslim girl if her parents would mind if she took part in the class nativity play. She said that if they objected she would tell them that they could be thankful that she wasn't playing the part of a pig (she was a cow). SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk "Farhad": >> Eeny meeny miny mo, >> Catch a rabbit by the toe, >> If it hollers let'im go, >> Eeny meeny miny mo. Ian Jackson: > The British version (which I learned as a child) used to be: > "Eeny meeny miny mo, > Catch a nigger by the toe, > If he screams, let'im go, > Eeny meeny miny mo." > ... I have to be very careful on the rare occasions when I speak the > rhyme out loud. The original version is locked firmly in my memory > banks, and cannot be altered or erased. I learned it as a child when my parents and I had recently moved from Britain to Canada, and the second line was as Ian gives it. However, Ian's third line doesn't scan -- I learned that line as Farhad gives it. In the first and fourth lines, I'd use the spelling "miney", not "miny". SignatureMark Brader "We demand rigidly defined areas Toronto of doubt and uncertainty!" msb@vex.net -- Vroomfondel (Douglas Adams: HHGTTG) My text in this article is in the public domain. > "Farhad": >>> Eeny meeny miny mo, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > In the first and fourth lines, I'd use the spelling "miney", not > "miny". I agree with Mark. My daughter brought home "tiger" in the mid-1960s, California USA. Is the Mexican "Tin marín de dos pingüe Cucara macara Títiri fué" out of bounds in AUE? SignatureFrank ess Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700: In kindergarten, my kids learned "Eeny, miny mo! Catch a tiger by the toe If he wriggles, Let him go" Neither my wife nor I taught them that tho' we both had memories of the racist version. Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used to be "Ten little n- boys"? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James Silverton: > Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used > to be "Ten little n- boys"? That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version. It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "...This is due to the Coincidence effect, msb@vex.net | more so than the Coriolis." -- Cindy Kandolf >James Silverton: >> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in >the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006. I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten Little Niggers" but it was subsequently published in the USA as "And Then There Were None". Amazon shows two copies of "Ten Little Niggers" available at $450 and $1250. The trail seems rather tangled on this. Googlebooks has a copy of the play, "And then There Were None", as published by Samuel French, while my playscript has the typical Samuel French cover and calls it "Ten Little Indians". (I think I'ver mentioned before that I was in a production, as Lombard, which the director set on an island within the Grand Canyon using small Amerind statues as the Indians). It played on Braodway in 1944 as "Ten Little Indians". According to http://www.imdb.com/find?s=all&q=ten+little+indians&x=0&y=0 it has been filmed as "Ten Little Indians", as "And Then There Were None", and for TV as "Ten Little Niggers" (looks like an English cast so I figure for Brit TV) Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * James Silverton: >>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used >>> to be "Ten little n- boys"? Mark Brader: >> That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version. >> It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often >> called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in >> the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006. Dave Hatunen: > I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten > Little Niggers" That's what I said. > but it was subsequently published in the USA as > "And Then There Were None". That title came later. The title first used in the US was "Ten Little Indians", as I said. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "If we gave people a choice, there would be chaos." msb@vex.net | -- Dick McDonald My text in this article is in the public domain. >James Silverton: >>>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >That title came later. The title first used in the US was "Ten Little >Indians", as I said. Not according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_Then_There_Were_None which says, "And Then There Were None is a work of detective fiction by Agatha Christie and first published in the UK by the Collins Crime Club on 6 November 1939 under the title of Ten Little Niggers and in US by Dodd, Mead and Company in January 1940 under the title of And Then There Were None." Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >James Silverton: > >>>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Niggers and in US by Dodd, Mead and Company in January 1940 under > the title of And Then There Were None." ABE Books agrees with that order. It shows "Ten Little Indians" was used soon thereafter, when the same story was made into a three-act play, produced in two theaters in New York in 1944 and 1945, and published in book form in 1946. IMDb shows that film and TV productions used various names. The 1946 20thC-Fox version used "And Then There Were None." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux James Silverton: >>>>> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used >>>>> to be "Ten little n- boys"? Mark Brader: >>>> That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version. >>>> It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often >>>> called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in >>>> the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006. Dave Hatunen: >>> I'm a bit confused here. The original title of the story was "Ten >>> Little Niggers" >> That's what I said. >>> but it was subsequently published in the USA as >>> "And Then There Were None". >> >> That title came later. The title first used in the US was "Ten Little >> Indians", as I said. Dave Hatunen: > Not according to [Wikipedia] ... My apologies for the error. The US version of the novel changed the poem/song from "Ten Little Niggers" to a new "Ten Little Indians" version, but the novel itself was indeed first titled "And Then There Were None" in the US, and only later "Ten Little Indians" (and also "The Nursery Rhyme Murders"). It was the *play*, a few years later, that was first produced in the US as "Ten Little Indians". By the way, neither version refers to people from India, as I think I have seen suggested. The novel explicitly refers to a rock formation on the island as having "negroid lips" in the original version and "an American Indian profile" in the American version. SignatureMark Brader | "...Backwards Compatibility, which, if you've made as msb@vex.net | many mistakes as Intel and Microsoft have in the past, Toronto | can be very Backwards indeed." -- Steve Summit My text in this article is in the public domain. >My apologies for the error. The US version of the novel changed the >poem/song from "Ten Little Niggers" to a new "Ten Little Indians" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >By the way, neither version refers to people from India, as I think >I have seen suggested. As a work of British literature, I suspect it was a given. >The novel explicitly refers to a rock formation >on the island as having "negroid lips" in the original version and >"an American Indian profile" in the American version. You reckon they might have done a "Harry Potter" on it? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>My apologies for the error. The US version of the novel changed the >>poem/song from "Ten Little Niggers" to a new "Ten Little Indians" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > As a work of British literature, I suspect it was a given. Not by the Americans who would have seen the American version (the one that talked about "Indians") and who would have been familiar with the song "Ten Little Indians" referring to American Indians. >>The novel explicitly refers to a rock formation >>on the island as having "negroid lips" in the original version and >>"an American Indian profile" in the American version. > > You reckon they might have done a "Harry Potter" on it? Perhaps a "Connecticut Yankee". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this. | MST3K kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > James Silverton: >> Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used >> to be "Ten little n- boys"? > > That's backwards; "Ten Little Indians" is the original version. Actually, I see John Brown's Ten Little Indian Boys to 1859, but an earlier version using "fingers" (and referring to an event in the story): Susy Miller, she burnt her little finger, Susy Miller, she burnt her little finger; Susy Miller, she burnt her little finger. One little finger burnt; One little, two little, three little fingers, Four little, five little, six little fingers; Seven little, eight little, nine little fingers-- Nine little fingers burnt! [Elizabeth Prentiss], _Little Susy's Six Birthdays_, 1853 This may well be a play on an earlier song, but it would have been a few years before John Brown became a household name, assuming that the song refers to the John Brown who led the raid at Harper's Ferry in 1859 (and was hanged for it) and about whom "John Brown's Body" was written. > It's the Agatha Christie novel named after it (and now more often > called "And Then There Were None") that had its title changed in > the other direction. See my posting here on the subject in 2006. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham | chaste in Martaban. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | (650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used >to be "Ten little n- boys"? To the confusion of American kids who don't realize that Indians are Asians in this regard. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >Does anyone remember "Ten little Indians/Sitting on a wall", which used > >to be "Ten little n- boys"? > > To the confusion of American kids who don't realize that Indians > are Asians in this regard. I understand what you are saying about American ("Red") Indians vs. British ("East") Indians. But the way I see it, your concern would hold true if the British "Asian" version had long been established, which I don't think it was. Everything I've found so far points to American origins. As Wikipedia shows, Septimus Winner of Philadelphia published "10 Little Injuns" in 1868, followed by Frank J. Green's "Ten Little Niggers" in 1869. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Little_Indians What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown," published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at: https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/13371?show=full The tune is familiar (Finnegan, Belinda, Paw Paw Patch, etc), and the lyrics are: Old John Brown had a little Ingin, Old John Brown had a little Ingin, Old John Brown had a little Ingin, One little Ingin boy. One little, two little, three little Ingins Four little, five little, six little Ingins Seven little, eight little, nine little Ingins Ten little Ingin boys. Ten little, nine little, eight little Ingins Seven little, six little five little Ingins Four little, three little, two little Ingins One little Ingin boy. The 1859 Yale Literary Magazine has several jocular references to this poem or song, with specific mentions of North American Indians. Google Books also has references in the 1870s and later. This song not the subtractive "And then there were three" idea, but it does include a downward count and I have to think it influenced the longer form. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown," > published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at: > https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/13371?show=full Okay, that predates the 1853 "ten little fingers" version I found, assuming the dating is correct. (I don't see a date on any of the images.) Probably not the same John Brown as in "John Brown's Body" then. The fact that the earliest I had found was > The 1859 Yale Literary Magazine has several jocular references to > this poem or song, with specific mentions of North American Indians. which was at the height of that John Brown's notoriety (and the year he was hanged). > Google Books also has references in the 1870s and later. > > This song not the subtractive "And then there were three" idea, but >it does include a downward count and I have to think it influenced >the longer form. The earliest "... and then there were none" I see is from 1873, as "The Ten Little Niggers", reproduced in the December, 1873, _St. Nicholas_, with "one little word [changed] throughout the poem, so as not to hurt anybody's feelings", as "The Ten Little Black Boys". The reviewer says The book is English--I'd wager my stalk on that; but it is republished by Mr. Scribner's publishing house in New York. A parody, entitled "Ten Little Candidates" appeared in _Punch_ in the 11/14/1868 issue: Ten little Candidates going out to dine, One ate his words and choked--then there was nine. Nine little Candidates, talking of the State, One talked his breath away--then there was eight. _Chorus_--One little, two little, three little, four little, five little Candidate's joys. Six little, seven little, eight little, nine little, ten little Candidate's joys. So obviously the "one little, two little" was seen as a piece with the (slightly later) "and then there was/were none", although perhaps not the same "one little, two little", as it's in groups of five rather than groups of three. Or is it later? Changing to "and then there was none", I see some earlier things like Ten little blackbirds sitting on a vine, One flew away, and then there were nine. Nine little blackbirds sitting on a gate... Eight little blackbirds flying up to heaven... Seven little blackbirds sitting on some sticks... Six little blackbirds sitting on a hive... Five little blackbirds sitting on a door... Four little blackbirds sitting on a tree... Three little blackbirds sitting on a shoe... Two little blackbirds sitting on a stone... One little blackbird sitting all alone, He flew away, and then there was none. _Childrens' [sic] Holidays_, 1865 which is presented by a child who "spread out her ten fingers and began". It wouldn't surprise me at all if such a finger game, where the birds simply fly away was parodized, with the "blackbirds" becoming "niggers" and suffering all sorts of fates. There appears to be a precedent in an earlier song: The Song of the Two Birds There were two birds sat on a stone, Fa, la, la, la, lal, de; One flew away, and then there was one, Fa, la, la, la, lal, de; The other flew after, and then there was none, Fa, la, la, la, lal, de; And so the poor stone was left all alone. Fa, la, la, la, lal, de; _Gammer Gurton's Garland_, 1810 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Are you okay?" 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"I'm made of felt....Add by dose |cubs off." kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown," > > published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > assuming the dating is correct. (I don't see a date on any of the > images.) Several sites have other images of the Gibson Troupe book, and they also give 1849. At Google Books, "The book of world-famous music," by James J. Fuld, specifically says the song was copyrighted April 17, 1849. >Probably not the same John Brown as in "John Brown's Body" > then. But -- but -- wasn't "John Brown's Body" a truly old song?... Hm, I guess not. Some research shows that both it and the Battle Hymn were part of a confusing swirl of words and lyrics that were all set to the same tune during the Civil War. The tune (of the chorus, at least) appears to be from a popular 1850s hymn "Say Brothers Will You Meet Us." Some say these words came earlier than "John Brown's body": Ellsworth's body lies mouldering in the dust, (3x) As we go marching on- Glory, Glory, Halelujah! [etc.] There are several other songs about Colonel Elmer E. Ellsworth, an early casualty of the Union forces who was declared to be a hero. But he died in May 1861, and we know John Brown died in 1859, so this isn't necessarily earlier. Well, anyway, "John Brown" is one of the most common English names. Checking the Ancestry World database, it gives over 4000 entries for "John Brown" born between 1630 and 1670 (with duplication). As a control, "John Bradford" gets 900 results for the same period. "John Peters" gets 128. So I wouldn't set any great store by the fact that some song happened to contain the name. >The fact that the earliest I had found was > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > which was at the height of that John Brown's notoriety (and the year > he was hanged). [snip lots of good stuff] > Four little blackbirds sitting on a tree... > Three little blackbirds sitting on a shoe... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the birds simply fly away was parodized, with the "blackbirds" > becoming "niggers" and suffering all sorts of fates. Remember the great influence of the blackface minstrel era, which swept over not only the US but England. Professional singers pretending to the black are more likely to make up songs that refer to being black. > There appears to be a precedent in an earlier song: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > _Gammer Gurton's Garland_, 1810 The Opies take it back farther than that, but that will have to wait for another day. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>> What Wikipedia fails to include at all is "Old John Brown," >>> published in 1849 by the Gibson Troupe, available in facsimile at: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > As we go marching on- > Glory, Glory, Halelujah! [etc.] This is what Wikipedia has to say about the song "John Brown's Body." "John Brown's Body" (originally known as "John Brown's Song") is a famous Union marching song of the American Civil War. The tune arose out of the folk hymn tradition of the American camp meeting movement of the 1800s. During the American Civil War the lyrics referenced Sergeant John Brown of the Second Battalion, Boston Light Infantry Volunteer Militia, a Boston based unit. Later, people mistakenly believed it referenced the abolitionist John Brown and later verses were added referencing him.[1] The "flavor of coarseness, possibly of irreverence"[2] led many of the era to feel uncomfortable with the earliest "John Brown" lyrics. This in turn led to the creation of many variant versions of the text that aspired to a higher literary quality. The most famous of these is Julia Ward Howe's "Battle Hymn of the Republic," which was written when a friend suggested, "Why do you not write some good words for that stirring tune?"[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown%27s_Body There's much more, and the references look good. There's no more info - or link - on who Sgt. John Brown was or when he fought. Apparently, from this reference (http://www.civilwarpoetry.org/union/songs/brownexp.html), he fought and sang in the Civil War. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > This is what Wikipedia has to say about the song "John Brown's Body." > > "John Brown's Body" (originally known as "John Brown's Song") is a > famous Union marching song of the American Civil War. The tune arose > out [really big snip] You really learn something here. That John Brown's Body is the original and The Battle Hymn of The Republic the "modification" would never have occurred to me. Thanks! OK, I could have found that on Wikipedia myself, but had to reason to go looking. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> This is what Wikipedia has to say about the song "John Brown's Body." >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >OK, I could have found that on Wikipedia myself, but had to reason to go >looking. Glory, glory halleluyah, Teacher hit me with a ruler. I hit her on the bean With a rotten tangerine. Her truth goes marching on. Barry in Indy >>> This is what Wikipedia has to say about the song "John Brown's Body." >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > With a rotten tangerine. > Her truth goes marching on. The last line was "And her teeth went marching out" in the version I learned. I guess it's a question of how hard you hit her. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >> Glory, glory halleluyah, >> Teacher hit me with a ruler. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The last line was "And her teeth went marching out" in the version I > learned. I guess it's a question of how hard you hit her. Thor Heyerdahl wrote in "Kon Tiki" that he and his crew sang "Tom Brown's baby has a pimple on his nose". Did anyone came across this version? And what's the rest of the text? Regards Steffen > Thor Heyerdahl wrote in "Kon Tiki" that he and his crew sang "Tom > Brown's baby has a pimple on his nose". Did anyone came across this > version? Ours was "John Brown's baby had a cold upon its chest... So they rubbed it with camphorated oil." >And what's the rest of the text? Do you not have access to Google? Run "tom brown's baby" and you get an answer immediately. There's a bit more info in the Wikipedia article "John Brown's Body." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> Thor Heyerdahl wrote in "Kon Tiki" that he and his crew sang "Tom >> Brown's baby has a pimple on his nose". Did anyone came across this >> version? > > Ours was "John Brown's baby had a cold upon its chest... > So they rubbed it with camphorated oil." I know that aa "Little Peter rabbit had a cold ..." After reading this thread this morning, I walked off to work singing quietly to myself about putting him in a jam jar and and sending him home to mum. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>> Glory, glory halleluyah, >>> Teacher hit me with a ruler. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Brown's baby has a pimple on his nose". Did anyone came across this > version? And what's the rest of the text? It was mentioned in one of the articles in my other posts, I believe. It was apparently a favorite of the Brits during WWI and was spread by them then. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >> This is what Wikipedia has to say about the song "John Brown's Body." >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >OK, I could have found that on Wikipedia myself, but had to reason to go >looking. And "He jumped without a parachute from twenty-thousand feet" must have come later because I don't think they used parachutes in that war. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > You really learn something here. That John Brown's Body is the original > and The Battle Hymn of The Republic the "modification" would never have > occurred to me. Thanks! Sarah Vowell wrote an interesting piece about it that was on This American Life, if you'd like to know more. It was from her book Assasination Vacation, which is also good, but the radio version had someone singing the various versions. SignatureSML > But -- but -- wasn't "John Brown's Body" a truly old song?... Hm, I > guess not. Some research shows that both it and the Battle Hymn were [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > As we go marching on- > Glory, Glory, Halelujah! [etc.] Here's some more on "John Brown's Body." From the book The Rose and the Briar: Death, Love and Liberty in the American Ballad: "... the song "John Brown's Body" is an accident of history. What happened was that Union soldiers, the 12th Massachusetts Regiment, were stationed at Fort Warren in Boston Harbor. As they went about their duties, the soldiers sang. One of their favorites was "Say Brothers, Will You Meet Us?" - a Methodist hymn with a "glory, glory hallelujah" chorus. There was a singing quartet in residence at the fort: Sgt. Charles Edgerly, Sgt. Newton J. Purnette, Sgt. James Jenkins, and Sgt. John Brown. One day in December of 1859, news arrived at the fort about the famous abolitionist: "John Brown's dead." Some smart-aleck, thinking of his singing comrade, Sgt. John Brown, is said to have replied, "But he still goes marching around." A soldier named Henry Halgreen reportedly turned this wisecrack into the first verse of a song about his comrade: "John Brown's body lies a-mouldering in the grave/His soul goes marching on." A soldier who played the organ set it to the tune of "Say Brother, Will You Meet Us?" So the song was a joke ... "John Brown's Body became the 12th regiment's marching song. ... They sang it so often they became known as the "Hallelujah Regiment." ... Three months later, Sgt. John Brown drowned while crossing the Shenandoah River on the way to battle. Heartbroken, the Hallelujah Regiment never sang "John Brown's Body" again. But by that time, they were the only ones in the Union army not singing it. ... And since no one had ever heard of Sargeant Brown, every soldier who sang the song thought he was paying tribute to the infamous abolitionist." http://civilwartalk.com/forums/campfire-chat-general-discussions/24107-sgt-john- brown.html For other versions of this story, see: http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cocoon/ihas/lo...3/default.html http://jay.schmidt.home.att.net/ft.warren/brown.html http://www.amcivilwarmonth.homestead...frepublic.html (warning: this one has music!) http://www.sbgmusic.com/html/teacher.../civilwar.html Working links at the civilwartalk link. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: > But -- but -- wasn't "John Brown's Body" a truly old song?... > Hm, I guess not. Some research shows that both it and the > Battle Hymn were part of a confusing swirl of words and lyrics > that were all set to the same tune during the Civil War. The > tune (of the chorus, at least) appears to be from a popular > 1850s hymn "Say Brothers Will You Meet Us." In Percy A. Schole's "Oxford Companion to Music", 10th Ed. The song is traced to the commissioning of a "chantey" by an 1850s fire company in Charleston, SC, for use on a proposed excursion.The first words were "Say bummers will you meet us?" The Methodists saw the value of the tune and changed the opening line to "Say brothers will you meet us?" and the hymn became very popular. The Civil War song was put together by members of the Second Battalion of the Massachusetts Infantry, "The Tigers" , partly because they had a singing quartet member also called John Brown. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Tigers" , partly because they had a singing quartet member also called >John Brown. Isn't it the Salvation Army that says "Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?" SignatureIan Ian wrote on Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:28:30 +0100: >> Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Isn't it the Salvation Army that says "Why should the Devil > have all the best tunes?" The same Companion article that I mention says the quote is attributed to John Wesley. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Ian wrote on Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:28:30 +0100: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >The same Companion article that I mention says the quote is attributed >to John Wesley. It seems to be attributed to several people. It is such an appealing idea that once it was first used it would have been picked up by others. http://www.answers.com/topic/why-should-the-devil-have-all-the-best-tunes Many hymns are sung to popular secular melodies, a practice that was especially favoured by the Methodists. This saying is commonly attributed to the English evangelist Rowland Hill (1744-1833). <quotes of its use by various people snipped> SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Isn't it the Salvation Army that says "Why should the Devil have all the >best tunes?" Indeed. It was originally said by William Booth, Founder Of The Salvation Army: http://www1.salvationarmy.org/heritage.nsf/0/42d53ced9ec1583080256954004bff3e?Op enDocument or http://tinyurl.com/8g9tp George ' Sailor' Fielder, the Commanding Officer [SA Worcester], had been put up to sing. He had been a sea captain with a voice that had often been heard above the roar of the waves. ... He sang his testimony in the words, ' Bless His name, He set me free.' 'That was a fine song. What tune was that? ' inquired the Army's Founder later. 'Oh,' came the reply in a rather disapproving tone, General, that's a dreadful tune. Don't you know what it is? That's " Champagne Charlie is my name".' That's settled it,' William Booth decided as he turned to Bramwell. ' Why should the devil have all the best tunes?' The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the Clapton Congress Hall joined heartily in the chorus of Gipsy Smith's solo, ' O the Blood of Jesus cleanses white as snow' to the music of 'I traced her little footsteps in the snow '. There were no qualms of conscience. Many people gathered there knew none of the hymn tunes or gospel melodies used in the churches; the music hall had been their melody school. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday > afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the > Clapton Congress Hall joined heartily in the chorus of Gipsy Smith's > solo, ' O the Blood of Jesus cleanses white as snow' to the music of > 'I traced her little footsteps in the snow '. Didn't Johnny Duncan and the Blue Grass Boys have a hit with 'I traced her little footsteps in the snow' in around 1958? :oP SignatureIan >> The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday >> afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Didn't Johnny Duncan and the Blue Grass Boys have a hit with 'I traced >her little footsteps in the snow' in around 1958? :oP I can't remember. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday >>> afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> >I can't remember. Here he is, bottom picture on http://www.andmas.co.uk/rock_stars/rockstars_6.htm SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday >>>> afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Here he is, bottom picture on >http://www.andmas.co.uk/rock_stars/rockstars_6.htm Thanks. That confirms that he performed 'Trace Her Little Footsteps In The Snow'. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>> The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday >>>>> afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Thanks. That confirms that he performed 'Trace Her Little Footsteps In >The Snow'. The title was simply "Footprints in The Snow", but the lyric included "I traced her little footprints in the snow" I traced her little footprints in the snow I found her little footprints in the snow I bless that happy day when Nellie lost her way For I found her when the snow was on the ground <http://www.cowboylyrics.com/lyrics/monroe-bill/footprints-in-the-snow-17 427.html> <http://www.schellackkarl.de/product_info.php/info/p1021_Johny-Duncan-and -The-Blue-Grass-Boys.html> SignatureIan >>>> The adoption of such music was soon put to full use. On Saturday >>>> afternoon, May 13, 1882, the congregation at the opening of the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Here he is, bottom picture on >http://www.andmas.co.uk/rock_stars/rockstars_6.htm Ah, happy days! SignatureIan >Indeed. It was originally said by William Booth, Founder Of The >Salvation Army: Apologies. The article does not claim that William Booth was the originator of the statement. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: >> But -- but -- wasn't "John Brown's Body" a truly old song?... >> Hm, I guess not. Some research shows that both it and the >> Battle Hymn were part of a confusing swirl of words and lyrics >> that were all set to the same tune during the Civil War. The >> tune (of the chorus, at least) appears to be from a popular >> 1850s hymn "Say Brothers Will You Meet Us." > In Percy A. Schole's "Oxford Companion to Music", 10th Ed. The song is > traced to the commissioning of a "chantey" by an 1850s fire company in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Tigers" , partly because they had a singing quartet member also called > John Brown. Just to bring the tone down a little, does anyone else remember "Oh, Sir Jasper", sung to the same tune, and a favourite when we were all smutty teenage schoolboys? "Oh, Sir Jasper, do not touch me! As she lay between the sheets with nothing on. She's a most immoral lady, As she lay between the sheets with nothing on." Each verse leaves out one word from the end of the first line, going via, "Oh Sir Jasper do not!" and "Oh, Sir Jasper, do!", to the last verse, which is "Oh! Ooooh! Oooooooooh!" With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk >> Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Sir Jasper", sung to the same tune, and a favourite when we were all >smutty teenage schoolboys? I do. I think it is usually "...with nothing on at all". There is a version at: http://hymnsandarias.com/sirjasper.html >"Oh, Sir Jasper, do not touch me! >As she lay between the sheets with nothing on. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Peter. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Dr Peter Young wrote... >> Donna wrote : > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > going via, "Oh Sir Jasper do not!" and "Oh, Sir Jasper, do!", to > the last verse, which is "Oh! Ooooh! Oooooooooh!" Ah Yes! I remember eet well! You're missing a couple of words from the last line of my version: "As she lay between the lilywhite sheets with nothing on at all." SignatureNoel [snip] >> Just to bring the tone down a little, does anyone else remember >> "Oh, Sir Jasper", sung to the same tune, and a favourite when we [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> going via, "Oh Sir Jasper do not!" and "Oh, Sir Jasper, do!", to >> the last verse, which is "Oh! Ooooh! Oooooooooh!" > Ah Yes! I remember eet well! > You're missing a couple of words from the last line of my version: > "As she lay between the lilywhite sheets with nothing on at all." Yes, Ive heard that version, and Peter D's as well, but neither of them fits the last line of "John Brown's Body". With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk > Just to bring the tone down a little, does anyone else remember "Oh, > Sir Jasper", sung to the same tune, and a favourite when we were all > smutty teenage schoolboys? > > "Oh, Sir Jasper, do not touch me! Yes. > As she lay between the sheets with nothing on. > > She's a most immoral lady, > As she lay between the sheets with nothing on." I think the version I heard just had "Oh, Sir Jasper" for each line (as does the original of course). But I can't remember what the last line (the "his soul goes marching on" one) was. > Each verse leaves out one word from the end of the first line, going > via, "Oh Sir Jasper do not!" and "Oh, Sir Jasper, do!", to the last > verse, which is "Oh! Ooooh! Oooooooooh!" Exactly. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > and changed the opening line to "Say brothers will you meet us?" and > the hymn became very popular. I've seen enough in the last twenty-four hours to know that this "bummers" story of William Steffe is disputed, by those who say the hymn (about meeting on Canaan's happy shore) is even older than his claim. For example, it is said to appears in Henry Ward Beecher's "Plymouth collection" of 1852, although I don't know if it had musical notation there. I think the erratic nature of music publishing in those days is going to keep us from knowing the truth, even if it goes marching on. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna wrote on Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:52:36 +0200: >> Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:36:29 +0200: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> opening line to "Say brothers will you meet us?" and the >> hymn became very popular. > I've seen enough in the last twenty-four hours to know that > this "bummers" story of William Steffe is disputed, by those > who say the hymn (about meeting on Canaan's happy shore) is > even older than his claim. For example, it is said to appears > in Henry Ward Beecher's "Plymouth collection" of 1852, > although I don't know if it had musical notation there. > I think the erratic nature of music publishing in those days > is going to keep us from knowing the truth, even if it goes > marching on. I have no strong opinions and was just quoting a reference but I rather like the idea that "Mine eyes hath seen the glory" began with boozy volunteer firemen. It has the ring of the good apocryphal stories that the humorless try to disprove. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > I have no strong opinions and was just quoting a reference but I rather > like the idea that "Mine eyes hath seen the glory" began with boozy > volunteer firemen. It has the ring of the good apocryphal stories that > the humorless try to disprove. I'm trying to find a way to read this other than "Truth is bad and boring, and false is fun and good," but it's tough. >> I have no strong opinions and was just quoting a reference but I >> rather like the idea that "Mine eyes hath seen the glory" began [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm trying to find a way to read this other than "Truth is bad and > boring, and false is fun and good," but it's tough. "Fiction can be more entertaining than fact"? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are two types of people - 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not. | Leigh Blue Caldwell kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Donna wrote on Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:37:22 +0200: >> I have no strong opinions and was just quoting a reference >> but I rather like the idea that "Mine eyes hath seen the >> glory" began with boozy volunteer firemen. It has the ring of >> the good apocryphal stories that the humorless try to >> disprove. >'m trying to find a way to read this other than "Truth is bad and >boring, and false is fun and good," but it's tough. Not by any means always, but what does it really matter? It's like the pedants who "proved" that Wohler did not name the Barbiturates after his girlfriend, Barbara, despite the fact that Wohler was a notorious prankster. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Donna wrote on Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:37:22 +0200: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Not by any means always, but what does it really matter? Oh, yeah, good, bad, true, false, all the same, who cares. What's for dinner? > It's like the > pedants who "proved" that Wohler did not name the Barbiturates after his > girlfriend, Barbara, despite the fact that Wohler was a notorious > prankster. I tried fairly hard to avoid looking up Wohler, but when I did, in less than three minutes I learned that you've got the wrong inventor. I'm not trying to be gleeful, but this says something about the role of factual errors in distracting one's audience from whatever the point was. SignatureOnward and upward -- Donna Richoux Donna wrote on Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:12:21 +0200: >> Donna wrote on Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:37:22 +0200: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Not by any means always, but what does it really matter? > Oh, yeah, good, bad, true, false, all the same, who cares. > What's for dinner? >> It's like the >> pedants who "proved" that Wohler did not name the >> Barbiturates after his girlfriend, Barbara, despite the fact >> that Wohler was a notorious prankster. > I tried fairly hard to avoid looking up Wohler, but when I > did, in less than three minutes I learned that you've got the > wrong inventor. > I'm not trying to be gleeful, but this says something about > the role of factual errors in distracting one's audience from > whatever the point was. OK, it was von Baeyer now that I broke down and looked it up myself. Wohler was a prankster ("Berichte der durstigen Chemischen Gesselschaft") as well as the great chemist who first synthesized a natural product: urea , disproving the need for natural forces in organic chemistry. The "Berichte der durstigen....." was a fake issue of the "Berichte der deutschen Chemischen Gesselschaft" (the preeminent chemical journal of its day) dedicated to satirizing the radical theory of chemistry. However, note the OED article, especially the mention of Barbara. barbituric, a. [ad. F. barbiturique (Ann. de Chimie et de Physique, 1865), f. G. barbitur in barbitursäure (Baeyer 1863, in Ann. d. Chemie und Pharm.), f. Barbara, a woman's name.] barbituric acid, an acid (C4H4O3N2) from which various hypnotic and sedative drugs are derived; malonyl urea. 1866 ODLING Anim. Chem. 128 Baeyer has increased the list of compounds by his discovery of..the violuric and barbituric acids. 1885 I. REMSEN Org. Chem. xii. 204 Barbituric acid..is a product obtained from uric acid. 1927 Proc. R. Soc. Med. 20 (title) The Clinical and Pathological Effects of Hypnotic Drugs of the Barbituric Acid and Sulphonal Groups. 1941 T. S. ELIOT Dry Salvages v. 14 To..fiddle with pentagrams Or barbituric acids. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If he wriggles, > Let him go" I learned Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo Catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollers let him go. My mother said to pick this very one. Out goes y-o-u. In the sixties on Long Island, NY. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > In the sixties on Long Island, NY. At about the same time, I learned the same first three lines. "Eeny meenie miney mo" was repeated after "let him go", and the last part, which was optional, went, "My mother told me to pick the very best one and you are it." Or maybe "you are out". -- Jerry Friedman >> > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > which was optional, went, "My mother told me to pick the very best one > and you are it." Or maybe "you are out". Current Gloucestershire version (ie, just solicited from a representative): Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo Catch a kitten by the toe. If it screams let it go. Eeny-Meenie-Miney-Mo (not particularly optional) ending (when and where I grew up there were no such endings) is "Black cat says it must ... be ... YOU!" SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu On Jul 12, 6:01 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote: > James Silverton wrote: > > Frank wrote on Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:45:38 -0700: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > In the sixties on Long Island, NY. Jerry: At about the same time, I learned the same first three lines. "Eeny meenie miney mo" was repeated after "let him go", and the last part, which was optional, went, "My mother told me to pick the very best one and you are it." Or maybe "you are out". Pat: I heard that ending occasionally. Another ending (unless I am making some bad association) was: If he hollers let him go But make him pay Fifty dollars evey day. One Two Three etc. That was actually a bullying thing, because they never did let "him" (the last person touched or counted on "go" or "day") go, but instead braced him (as in London Bridge's "build it up with sticks and stones, etc", two people circled their arms around the victim) and roughly jostled him or held him while the other kids ran up and punched him. > On Jul 12, 6:01 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I don't think we ever used this to determine which person to choose, but which inanimate item. The version I learned in Indianapolis in the early '50s was Eeny meeney miney moe Catch a frog by the toe If he hollers Make him pay Fifty dollars every day My mother told me To choose the very best one Y O U spells you. What I hear nowadays has "tiger" and drops lines 3 through 5 entirely. (I wondered about that frog in the version I learned -- How can you catch a toe on a webbed foot? Frogs get "it," not "he" and "him." Where would a frog get money? -- for decades until I heard what the original word had been.) The potato counting was a game all by itself. I think. Like A- tisket, A-tasket and London Bridge. >> On Jul 12, 6:01 pm, Jeffrey Turner <jtur...@localnet.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > To choose the very best one > Y O U spells you. We said that one, also, but with "O U T spells out goes you! (or Mary, or John or other)". That "you!" was usually accompanied by a fierce poke in the chest of the chosen one. Hmm. I seem to recall a lot of physical stuff going on in those simple games. Even "Duck! Duck! Goose!" was an excuse for hitting; And "Tag! Your IT!" > What I hear nowadays has "tiger" and drops lines 3 through 5 > entirely. (I wondered about that frog in the version I learned -- How [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The potato counting was a game all by itself. I think. Like A- > tisket, A-tasket and London Bridge. > > "Jerry Friedman" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > The potato counting was a game all by itself. I think. Like A- > tisket, A-tasket and London Bridge.- Hide quoted text - Not in Marblehead Mass in the early 1960s. We definitely used potato counting to choose a person for -- whatever the heck it was kids chose people for then. Now that I think back we certainly seemed to have loads of rhymes and songs. Do kids today have them, or do they just have MP3s? I also remember a counting song that began with '*My* mother said *your* mother was *hang*ing out *clothes*...' (asterisks to show stressed syllables) but I can't for the life of me remember the rest of it. It certainly ended with something emphatic to choose the person for -- etc. cheers, Stephanie in Brussels now, no idea what kids here do > I also remember a counting song that began with '*My* mother said > *your* mother was *hang*ing out *clothes*...' (asterisks to show > stressed syllables) but I can't for the life of me remember the rest > of it. It certainly ended with something emphatic to choose the > person for -- etc. Elsethread I quoted this as an addendum to "One-potato, two-potato..." My mother and your mother Were hanging out the clothes. My mother punched your mother Right square in the nose. There may have been more lines but if so I don't recall them. Ending with, "O-U-T spells OUT!" SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email In article <28f87114-cac1-4cbc-aefe-448c121dafc4@ 24g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be says... > > The potato counting was a game all by itself. I think. Like A- > > tisket, A-tasket and London Bridge.- Hide quoted text - [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > loads of rhymes and songs. Do kids today have them, or do they just > have MP3s? Spied only this morning in the school playground: 'one potato, two potato' and a new one to me, 'nutcracker, nutcracker, nutcracker, crack'. Like one potato, everyone puts their fists in. The caller interlaces their fingers to make a two-handed fist with which they bang the other fists (two fists per 'nutcracker'). The fist that gets 'crack' is out. Keep going till one fist is left. I misquoted YoungBloke's 'ip dip' rhyme, though. It's Ip dip do do The cat got flu flu The dog got chicken pox And so did you. Not because you're dirty Not because you're clean My mum says You are the queen. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >Ip dip do do >The cat got flu flu [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >My mum says >You are the queen. Similar to the Irish children's song "Ahem, Ahem" or "Me mother has gone to church". Ahem! Ahem! Me mother is gone to church. She told me not to play with you Because you're in the dirt. It isn't because you're dirty, It isn't because you're clean, It's because you have the whoopin' cough And eat margarine! (When sung, "margarine" is "marge-a-reen" to rhyme with "clean" with emphasis on "reen". In AmE, "margarine" is "marge-are-in" with emphasis on "marge". SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >Ip dip do do > >The cat got flu flu [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > emphasis on "reen". In AmE, "margarine" is "marge-are-in" with > emphasis on "marge". In most of the Uk that I'm familiar with, 'margarine' is always pronounced to rhyme with clean, with the emphasis on the final syllable. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Amethyst Deceiver wrote... > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pronounced to rhyme with clean, with the emphasis on the final > syllable. Ah, but is the 'g' hard or soft? [Depends on whether you keep it in the fridge or not, perhaps...] SignatureNoel > Amethyst Deceiver wrote... > > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ah, but is the 'g' hard or soft? > [Depends on whether you keep it in the fridge or not, perhaps...] Soft, like 'j'. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >> > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Soft, like 'j'. I know it usually pronounced as MARDGE-a-reen (first syllable usually lightly stressed, and with the 'j' sound as in 'Madge'). I remember the margarine we had when I was very young, in the late 1940s. I had never come across it in the countryside, but my grandmother (a city dweller) had it when we visited her. It tasted not unlike lard, and my mother was not at all impressed with it. Of course, these days, margarine is much more palatable. We rarely have butter in the house. I remember the advert for Stork margarine, with the slogan "You can't tell Stork from butter". This prompted the 'joke' version "You can't tell talk from mutter". SignatureIan > > Amethyst Deceiver wrote... > > > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Soft, like 'j'. Of course, but come to think of it shouldn't g before a be hard? Offhand I can't think of another example of hard g before a. How came this to pass? SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> > Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >> > > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Offhand I can't think of another example of hard g before a. How >came this to pass? Possibly because in BrE the 'a' after the 'g' in the word tends to be indistinct so that "margarine" sounds like "margerine". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > > > Amethyst Deceiver wrote... > > > > tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Of course, but come to think of it shouldn't g before a be hard? > Offhand I can't think of another example of hard g before a. I'm sure you meant to say that last bit the other way around -- you can't think of a *soft* g before a. I don't find a reason, either. I see in Wikipedia that first there was margaric acid, with its name from the Greek margaron, so that's got to be all hard g. Then a Frenchman invented what he called oleomargarine. I thought to myself, well, maybe it's the French -- they have both a hard and soft g, like English. But all the French words I can think of with "ga" have a hard g, like "gare" and "Gaulle" and "Degas," so that gets me nowhere. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> Of course, but come to think of it shouldn't g before a be hard? >> Offhand I can't think of another example of hard g before a. > > I'm sure you meant to say that last bit the other way around -- you > can't think of a *soft* g before a. The only reason I know the answer is that "margarine" was put forth when I complained that I couldn't think of another word in which "ga" was pronounced as it was in "gaol". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The whole idea of our government is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this: if enough people get together Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and act in concert, they can take |something and not pay for it. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Of course, but come to think of it shouldn't g before a be hard? >>> Offhand I can't think of another example of hard g before a. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >when I complained that I couldn't think of another word in which "ga" >was pronounced as it was in "gaol". I would invariably mis-read that as "goal". Having been brought up with the comic "The Dandy", and Desperate Dan being one of its most memorable characters, to me "jail" is spelt "jail", and not "gaol". SignatureIan >>>> Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >>>>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > and soft g, like English. But all the French words I can think of with > "ga" have a hard g, like "gare" and "Gaulle" and "Degas," so that gets I have heard old radio programmes (cookery, perhaps) where margarine was pronounced with a hard G, presumably because the presenters had not encountered the word before and were using the normal hard g before a. I would suspect the influence of TV advertising - perhaps the manufacturers decided how they wanted it to sound. French is far more prescriptive on the hard and soft G. The English often put a soft G in Angouleme, but it's hard because it's before an O. I remember two of the vowel/G combinations by cigarettes - Gauloises and Gitanes for hard (A) and soft (I). I've never come up with a mnemonic for the rest, but it's hard G before a, o, u and soft befor e, i, y. SignatureDavid >>>>> Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >>>>>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >with a mnemonic for the rest, but it's hard G before a, o, u and soft >befor e, i, y. Apart from the probable - but common - mispronunciation of "margarine", I'm pretty sure that, with the exception "gaol", all English Gs are as hard before a, o and u. For e, i and y, it could be either hard or soft, depending on the origin of the word. For words of Latin origin, it is usually soft (somewhat similar to the Italian rule for c having a 'ch' sound before i, and g having a 'j' sound, and the c and z in 'Spanish' Spanish having a 'th' sound). Words of Greek, Germanic or Scandinavian origin usually have the hard sound. SignatureIan >Donna Richoux wrote: >>> On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:54:24 UTC, Amethyst Deceiver >>>>jnllb@removemsn.com says... >>>>> Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >>>>>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... >>>>>>> (When sung, "margarine" is "marge-a-reen" to rhyme with "clean" >>>>>>> with emphasis on "reen". In AmE, "margarine" is "marge-are-in" [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >with a mnemonic for the rest, but it's hard G before a, o, u and soft >befor e, i, y. Mr Cotton-Smith, teaching French in Form IIIA, wrote on the board: A d O lph U s H I tl E r and told us all to remember that Hitler was a softy (don't blame me). I don't remember the Y fitting in, though. Y did appear in another mnemonic as goalkeeper in the pronominal football team line-up, but that's another story. SignaturePaul > French is far more prescriptive on the hard and soft G. The English > often put a soft G in Angouleme, but it's hard because it's before an O. > I remember two of the vowel/G combinations by cigarettes - Gauloises > and Gitanes for hard (A) and soft (I). I've never come up with a > mnemonic for the rest, but it's hard G before a, o, u and soft befor e, > i, y. Ditto in Spanish. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > > Of course, but come to think of it shouldn't g before a be hard? > > Offhand I can't think of another example of hard g before a. > > I'm sure you meant to say that last bit the other way around -- you > can't think of a *soft* g before a. Oh. Er. Yes. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Amethyst Deceiver wrote... >>> tony_cooper213@earthlink.net says... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Soft, like 'j'. Hmm... there were always those few, usually people who thought they were moving up a class, who gave it a hard g, but of course, they still emphasised the -een ending. Oddly enough, I haven't heard that hard g for many years, so perhaps it was just a passing fad. SignatureRob Bannister >Hmm... there were always those few, usually people who thought they were >moving up a class, who gave it a hard g, but of course, they still >emphasised the -een ending. Oddly enough, I haven't heard that hard g >for many years, so perhaps it was just a passing fad. The hard g was used in TV ads for the stuff in the UK in the 1960s, as in Margaret as opposed to Margery. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > > "Farhad": > >>> Eeny meeny miny mo, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > out of bounds in AUE? Probably. I learned it from a Mexican man as Tin marín de don pingüé Cúcara mácara títere fue Yo no fui, fue Teté, Este merito cochino marrano fue. The extra foot in the last line sounds very Mexican to me, and when this was discussed in a.u.s. a number of years ago, the cognates from other countries didn't have it. -- Jerry Friedman "Farhad": >>> Eeny meeny miny mo, >>> Catch a rabbit by the toe, >>> If it hollers let'im go, >>> Eeny meeny miny mo. Mark Brader: > In the first and fourth lines, I'd use the spelling "miney", not "miny". Come to think of it, I'd probably use "Eenie meenie miney mo". I just asked my wife Cathy (who has always lived in Canada) how she'd spell it and she wasn't sure, but when I asked her to try anyway, she produced "Eenie-meanie-miney-moe". SignatureMark Brader | "A colorful quilt reflecting the dispersed development msb@vex.net | of the nation. A sentence fragment." Toronto | --Eric Walker My text in this article is in the public domain. > In message > <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If he screams, let'im go, > Eeny meeny miny mo." My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. And I think it was "by his toe". SignatureDavid >> In message >> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. "Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals" (2 syllables). > And I think it was "by his toe". Same here. >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Same here. Mine (South Africa 1950s) was "nigger" and "hollers" and "by his toe". I can't speak for anyone else, but in my mind at that time "niggers" lived in North America, along with Brer Rabbit. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I can't speak for anyone else, but in my mind at that time "niggers" lived in >North America, along with Brer Rabbit. Ours (southern England) was the same, and "hollers" provided a pleasing exoticism, just as you say. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mine (South Africa 1950s) was "nigger" and "hollers" and "by his toe". New Orleans, 1940s, the same except "by the toe". When our children were of an age to learn counting rhymes (South Jersey, late '60s-early '70s) it was "tiger", learned from other children. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email In alt.usage.english, grabber wrote: >"the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message news:tgt6m >.55412$OO7.19125@text.news.virginmedia.com... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. That agrees 100% with what I learned (1950s). >"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. Quite right, "hollers" isn't BrE. But we were exposed to lots of westerns. We didn't have black people either, except on our jars of marmalade. The rhyme was part exotic, part nonsense. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, grabber wrote: >> "the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message news:tgt6m [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > westerns. We didn't have black people either, except on our jars of > marmalade. The rhyme was part exotic, part nonsense. I had always vaguely known that Dad was confirmed in 1939 or thereabouts by the Bishop of Harare or Mombasa or somewhere similar. It was decades after I first learned this that he happened to mention that said Bishop was, of course, white. This had never occurred to me. SignatureDavid a new Hilton >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. > >"Hollers" doesn't sound like BrE to me. When I were a lad it was "squeals" >(2 syllables). It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. Katy Quoth ke10@cam.ac.uk, and I quote: >>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever >came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. It used to be widespread in England and it was British speakers who took it to America. In Victorian times it was used in print by Sabine Baring-Gould and (in the form "holla") by Charles Kingsley, both representing English dialect speech. SignatureJames > >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever > came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. "If he winges, let him go" just doesn't have the right _Schwung_, innit. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever >> came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. > >"If he winges, let him go" just doesn't have the right _Schwung_, innit. I learnt "hollers" as a child. I never heard "winge" (or "whinge") before the 1970s, when I was an adult -- about the same time as I learnt "hassle". It simply wasn't part of my vocab before that. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever > >> came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > about the same time as I learnt "hassle". It simply wasn't part of my vocab > before that. Imports from BrE and AmE, respectively, I'd think. Is that how they seemed to you? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> >> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever >> >> came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Imports from BrE and AmE, respectively, I'd think. Is that how they >seemed to you? Yes, but I think of "hassle" as generational. No matter where it started, it seemed to be in common use in our generation all over the world within a couple of months, Some neologisms are adopted quickly, others seem to be resisted outside the place where they first appeared. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>>> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever >>>>> came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > seemed to be in common use in our generation all over the world within a > couple of months, I don't think I'd ever seen it written before, though. I had assumed it was spelt "hastle" - a sort of portmanteau of "bustle" and "harrass". SignatureRob Bannister > > Yes, but I think of "hassle" as generational. No matter where it started, it > > seemed to be in common use in our generation all over the world within a > > couple of months, > > I don't think I'd ever seen it written before, though. I had assumed it > was spelt "hastle" - a sort of portmanteau of "bustle" and "harrass". People make up all sorts of speculative theories about words new to them, don't they? But the truth is that "hassle," spelled in various ways, is an old British dialect word that relates to the hazel. I'm really suprised that dictionaries don't say this more firmly when we now have access to references like: 1877 A glossary of words pertaining to the dialect of mid-Yorkshire. Hezzle, the hazel. Hezzle, v. to castigate with a hazel or other stick. "If Ah catch tha, my lad, Ah'll hezzle thy hide for tha." 1899 A glossary of the words and phrases pertaining to the dialect of Cumberland Hazeling [aaz u lin, ez u lin], p. pr. 'a flogging with a pliable stick or hazel.' Wh. Gl, In our own localities, any kind of a stick may be put to use in hazeling the back of an offending / [Google Snippet stops] 1999 Concise Scots dictionary hazel &c late 18c-, hasill &c late 16-19; ha(i)ssel 17-e18 [hezl] n = hazel la16-. vt = beat or thrash, as with a hazel stick, la19-, now Cai Rox. The change of meaning from beating to having a quarrel or trouble is slight. I find it completely plausible that the word moved (only lightly documented) from rural speakers with English, Scots, and Irish heritage to African-Americans (i.e., from overseers to slaves), eventually to the black-white Jazz world, show business, and the American mainstream. The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang documents that later part of the connection, in the 1930s and 1940s. As for the origin, it says it was "earlier U.S. So. dial. hassle ' with the meaning "to gasp for breath, usually as a result of exertion." So it doesn't go as far back as the hazel tree. Maybe our pal Jesse Sheidlower will read this and let us know current OED thinking. I really suspect the "hazel" connection is a story not told. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>> Yes, but I think of "hassle" as generational. No matter where it started, it >>> seemed to be in common use in our generation all over the world within a [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > OED thinking. I really suspect the "hazel" connection is a story not > told. [I didn't know where to snip, so apologies for the lack of editing.] That was very interesting. Thank you. I presume the verb "haze" has no connection at all. SignatureRob Bannister > > People make up all sorts of speculative theories about words new to > > them, don't they? But the truth is that "hassle," spelled in various [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > That was very interesting. Thank you. I presume the verb "haze" has no > connection at all. MW says etymology unknown. A big old dic I have says "haze" comes from the Old French haser, to annoy. The Ask Oxford site comes closest to connecting it to the hazel words: haze 2 verb N. Amer. torment or harass (a new student or recruit) by subjection to strenuous, humiliating, or dangerous tasks. -- ORIGIN Scots and dialect in the sense "frighten, scold, or beat". The Dictionary of the Scots Language agrees there is or was such a word: HAZE, v. Also hayse. To berate or scold a person (Rxb. 1923 Watson W.-B.); to affright, scare. Now only dial. in this sense in Eng. Back to "hassle," I turned up another interesting hazel connection: hassell n. [Prob. ult. a var. of hasel, hazel.] An instrument formerly used for breaking flax and hemp. Halliwell. The Century dictionary, 1895, New York. The same entry appears in Wright's "Dictionary of obsolete and provincial English," 1857. Does anyone have access to JSTOR? I found references to this as soon as I started researching, a 1953 article that discusses "hassle," but I can't open it. One excerpt: JSTOR: More about 'Snolly Goster' It is highly probable that one who flailed flax with a hassell in the fourteenth century referred to his work as either hasselling, which is not recorded, ... links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003...0.CO%3B2-N - Similar - by H Sperber - 1953 See, if there was a scholarly article about "hassle" in 1953, seems to me everyone should agree on the etymology by now. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>>> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time >>>> I ever [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> about the same time as I learnt "hassle". It simply wasn't part of my vocab >> before that. > Imports from BrE and AmE, respectively, I'd think. I've always thought that whinge was Irish, but I lack documentation. With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk >>>>> It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time >>>>> I ever [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I've always thought that whinge was Irish, but I lack documentation. OED thinks otherwise. whinge, v. orig. Sc. and north. dial. [North. form of OE. hwinsian, corresp. to OHG. win(i)sôn (MHG. winsen; cf. MHG., G. winseln):{em}OTeut. *{chi}winis{omac}jan, f. root of hwínan to WHINE. For the suffix cf. OE. cl{aeacu}nsian to CLEANSE, bletsian to BLESS, rícsian to rule, ON. hreinsa to cleanse; for the phonology of the form whinge cf. CLENGE, ringe, north. forms of CLEANSE, RINSE.] intr. To whine; esp. to complain peevishly. Hence {sm}whinging (also w(h)ingeing) vbl. n. and ppl. a. The earliest quote is: a1150 MS. C.C.C. Camb. 303 125/7 Mid hwinsunge & mid dreori{asg}um mode hio [sc. the dogs] cerdon ealle on{asg}ean to {th}an hunten. (Is there a translator in the building?) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [whinge] > The earliest quote is: > a1150 MS. C.C.C. Camb. 303 125/7 Mid hwinsunge & mid > dreori{asg}um mode hio [sc. the dogs] cerdon ealle on{asg}ean to > {th}an hunten. > > (Is there a translator in the building?) With whining and with sad hearts, they all turned back to the hunt. > [whinge] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > With whining and with sad hearts, they all turned back to the hunt. On second thoughts, "...returned to the hunter". > >> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever > came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. It's closely related to the attention-calling "hallo" and "halloo," says MW. Which makes it akin to "hello." ...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see with Google Books for "hallooed" are old American ones. We had this old song in a book and I assumed it was British, but now I see it listed as American. It begins: We hunted and we halloed, And the first thing we did find, Was a barn in the meadow, And that we left behind. Look ye there. One said it was the barn, but the other said nay ; He said it was a Meeting House with the steeple blown away. Oh, it's the spelling -- "halloa'd" turns up Punch and Shakespeare and so on. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna wrote on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 00:07:22 +0200: > >>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't > >>> scan. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > It's closely related to the attention-calling "hallo" and > "halloo," says MW. Which makes it akin to "hello." > ...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see > with Google Books for "hallooed" are old American ones. We had > this old song in a book and I assumed it was British, but now > I see it listed as American. It begins: > We hunted and we halloed, > And the first thing we did find, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > One said it was the barn, but the other said nay ; > He said it was a Meeting House with the steeple blown away. > Oh, it's the spelling -- "halloa'd" turns up Punch and > Shakespeare and so on. D'ye ken John Peel? "Peel's View Halloo would ha wakened the dead" SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > ...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see with Google > Books for "hallooed" are old American ones. We had this old song in a > book and I assumed it was British, but now I see it listed as American. > It begins: Bunthorne. (annoyed - to Patience) I will read it if you bid me! Patience. (much frightened) You can if you like! Bunthorne. It is a wild, weird, fleshy thing; yet very tender, very yearning, very precious. It is called, "Oh, Hollow! Hollow! Hollow!" Patience. Is it a hunting song? Bunthorne. A hunting song? No, it is not a hunting song. It is the wail of the poet's heart on discovering that everything is commonplace. To understand it, cling passionately to one another and think of faint lilies SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > > ...Is "halloo" as a verb an Americanism? All the hits I see with Google > > Books for "hallooed" are old American ones. ... I'll just mention a poem I like, which has the verb "hallo". It's "Madman's Song", by Elinor Wylie. http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/madman-s-song/ > Bunthorne. (annoyed - to Patience) I will read it if you bid me! > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > understand it, cling passionately to one another and think of faint > lilies Which is based on the forms "hollo" and "holla". I think the latter is the direct ancestor of "holler". -- Jerry Friedman [snip] > Which is based on the forms "hollo" and "holla". I think the latter > is the direct ancestor of "holler". Shakespeare has Falstaff say in King Henry V, Part 2: "As for my voice, I have lost it with hollaing and the singing of anthems". Usually pronounced, "hollering", I think. With best wishes, Peter. SignaturePeter Young, (BrE), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004. (US equivalent: Attending Anesthesiologist) Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired. http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk >>> My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >It was "hollers" WIWAL (London, 1950's). I think it was the only time I ever >came across the word, which as you say is not normal Br.E., then or now. "Screams" in Australia. The word rode over the two syllables. We finished with: "O U T spells out And out you must go If I say so" SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >> In message >> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > My BrE version has "hollers", not "screams", which doesn't scan. And I > think it was "by his toe". I've heard "hollers", but that wasn't a word most of us really knew, which is perhaps why our version used "bites". SignatureRob Bannister >>> In message >>> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I've heard "hollers", but that wasn't a word most of us really knew, >which is perhaps why our version used "bites". That doesn't scan, and neither does "scream". I learned "hollers" just like others, and discovered its meaning from that rhyme. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> In message >>>> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >That doesn't scan, and neither does "scream". I learned "hollers" >just like others, and discovered its meaning from that rhyme. Oh, I think you judge too harshly! The comma which follows "screams" (or "squeals") invites a one-syllable elongation of the preceding word, so the line does more-or-less scan. PS: I confess I now believe that it WAS "squeal", and not "scream". SignatureIan >>>> In message >>>> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > That doesn't scan, and neither does "scream". I learned "hollers" > just like others, and discovered its meaning from that rhyme. Is scansion important in magical chants? We mainly used "one potato..." anyway. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> In message >>>>> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Is scansion important in magical chants? Try invoking a demon and missing out a syllable. Heaven knows exactly where you'll end up (and one of Heaven's representatives will tell you at great length if you ask). I feel it needs a two-syllable word in line three. >We mainly used "one potato..." >anyway. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Is scansion important in magical chants? We mainly used "one potato..." > anyway. And what hand movements did you use with your potato chanting? We had to have both hands curled in fists and the counter tapped the tops of the other assembled fists in turn with one of theirs. This is a very bad description but I've just had too much Underberg. (Definition of too much Underberg in my case would appear to be any quantity more than a sip. Not an experiment to be repeated. Now I know.) cheers, Stephanie in Brussels being convivial >On Jul 14, 2:42 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >too much Underberg in my case would appear to be any quantity more >than a sip. Not an experiment to be repeated. Now I know.) A friend used to call it Chunderberg, in allusion to its reputed (or observed, I was never sure) medicinal properties. >cheers, >Stephanie >in Brussels >being convivial I gather that a convivium was a feast, while a sumposion was a drinking party. There could be a basis for human character classification there. SignaturePaul >> Is scansion important in magical chants? We mainly used "one potato..." >> anyway. > > And what hand movements did you use with your potato chanting? We had > to have both hands curled in fists and the counter tapped the tops of > the other assembled fists in turn with one of theirs. With boys, you would hardly have called it a tap - more a deliberate attempt to hurt in the way that some grown men shake hands. This is a very > bad description but I've just had too much Underberg. (Definition of > too much Underberg in my case would appear to be any quantity more > than a sip. Not an experiment to be repeated. Now I know.) Underberg is good for you - herbs and stuff - keep on sipping. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Is scansion important in magical chants? We mainly used "one >>> potato..." anyway. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Underberg is good for you - herbs and stuff - keep on sipping. I can't recall the ending of this starting verse, and can't find a hint of it with my poor Google skills--Inch Me and Pinch Me. So I asked my sister. She, at least, can recall something about the old ladies and hanging up the wash, though she thinks there was something about "picking up a penny and penny" and thinking she "was richy". But she is blocking on "Inch me and Pinch Me" just as I am. All I can recall, and that very vaguely, is that it was another bullying kind of game, in which, at some cue, the victim is caught saying "Pinch me" and is pinched. The meter might have had something of "Wynken and Blynken and Nod" or "The Owl and the Pussycat". Pat Durkin filted: >I can't recall the ending of this starting verse, and can't find a hint >of it with my poor Google skills--Inch Me and Pinch Me. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >game, in which, at some cue, the victim is caught saying "Pinch me" and >is pinched. In an episode of "Family Guy", Peter is forced to go back to elementary school and immediately decides that one of the smart kids is his new enemy...he asks the kid if he'd like a Hertz donut...the kid says, sure, why not?...Peter punches him and then says "Hurts, don't it?"...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >I can't recall the ending of this starting verse, and can't find a hint >of it with my poor Google skills--Inch Me and Pinch Me. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >game, in which, at some cue, the victim is caught saying "Pinch me" and >is pinched. Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Went down to the sea to bathe Adam and Eve were drowned So who do you think was saved? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>I can't recall the ending of this starting verse, and can't find a >>hint [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Adam and Eve were drowned > So who do you think was saved? From my sister, who "slept on it" and remembered these. I didn't tell her about "One Potato", so she had the fun of recollection. "One potato, two potato, four! five potato , six potato , seven potato, more. Inch me and pinch me went down to the lake; Inch me fell in and pinch me had cake!" Steve, this is very similar to your "sea to bathe", and doesn't do much for my recollection. She probably never got pinched, so the Herts Donut couplet that RH (I think!) posted is probably closer to mine. "I think these are jump rope songs." >> Adam and Eve and Pinch Me >> Went down to the sea to bathe [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >"I think these are jump rope songs." Ruth Rendell wrote a novel with a title based on it, and I think her version was similar to mine. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> Adam and Eve and Pinch Me >>> Went down to the sea to bathe [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > version > was similar to mine. Steve, I am so sorry that I didn't say yours out loud. . .even to the answer. In fact, except for the Adam and Eve and "sea", and "drowned", yours does answer the bullying requirement, while my sister's certainly does not. And I wonder who didn't pinch her? Some favoritism going on, I expect! But she had 10 kids, so her mothering instincts may have erased the mean part of her childhood. And, severely diabetic though she may be, she still makes cakes for every family and community event she attends. She has a cake obsession. > From my sister, who "slept on it" and remembered these. I didn't tell > her about "One Potato", so she had the fun of recollection. > > "One potato, two potato, four! > five potato , six potato , seven potato, more. I suspect there was a three potato in there. Blow me, I've come over all Dan Quayle - almost every time I've written potato I've had to delete a final 'e'. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> From my sister, who "slept on it" and remembered these. I didn't >> tell [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I suspect there was a three potato in there. Oh, yes. A huge typo there. Or a see-o > Blow me, I've come over all Dan Quayle - almost every time I've > written > potato I've had to delete a final 'e'. That happens to me, as well. I sure am glad we don't talk about taters very often. >> durk183@sbc.com says... >>> From my sister, who "slept on it" and remembered these. I didn't >>> tell her about "One Potato", so she had the fun of recollection. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That happens to me, as well. I sure am glad we don't talk about > taters very often. Well, you can always call them spuds. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > Adam and Eve and Pinch Me > Went down to the sea to bathe > Adam and Eve were drowned > So who do you think was saved? I partly remember something similar: Adam and Eve and Pinch Me Tight Something something one bright night ... Leading to the same sort of ending. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >Adam and Eve and Pinch Me >Went down to the sea to bathe >Adam and Eve were drowned "Drownded", where I come from (Kent, 1960s). It scans better, too. >So who do you think was saved? SignatureSusan Ashton Southport, UK >>>> In message >>>> <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > That doesn't scan, and neither does "scream". I learned "hollers" > just like others, and discovered its meaning from that rhyme. Why doessn't it scan? I've got a tin ear, but I read it as a pair of "de-da, de-da, de-da, de" lines, then a pair (break the line at the comma) of "de de de" lines, and then a repeat of the first one. Not the same as 4 with the same pattern - more like a limerick in fact - but what's wrong with it? SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for > a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If it hollers let'im go, > Eeny meeny miny mo. We used to count "spuds" at primary school: One potato, two potato, Three potato, four. Five potato, six potato, Seven potato, more. O U T spells out. The participants stood in a circle with both fists extended and clenched, apparently resembling potatoes. The command for this was "Spuds up!". The counter would knock each spud in turn with one of his own, on the stress points in the rhyme and the spud which was hit by "out" was dropped. The counting started again from the next spud. Any person who had no spuds left was knocked out. You could either use this to choose a loser (first to drop two spuds) or a winner (last in). The counter included his own spuds which were kept clenched throughout by knocking them in turn with the other, to keep them in the round. I haven't thought of this for more than 40 years. SignatureDavid >> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person >> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Seven potato, more. > O U T spells out. Uh huh. We did that, as well as "eeny meeny". We also did Ip dip dip My little ship Sailing on the water Like a cup and saucer You are not in IT SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person >>> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Like a cup and saucer > You are not in IT That must be NW England - my children did something similar which always turned into "ip dip dog sh.t" and sent them into paroxisms of giggles. SignatureDavid a new Hilton > >>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person > >>> for a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > That must be NW England - my children did something similar which always > turned into "ip dip dog sh.t" and sent them into paroxisms of giggles. YoungBloke came home recently with his version: Ip dip doo doo the cat got flu flu the dog did too too out goes you. Of course, he's in Reception. By year 2 I expect it'll be "ip dip dog sh.t", which is what we said at school too. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary On Jul 14, 7:38 am, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote: > In article <h3g5os$pv...@news.eternal-september.org>, > usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > That must be NW England - my children did something similar which always > > turned into "ip dip dog sh.t" and sent them into paroxisms of giggles. "Paroxysms", if I may be so bold. > YoungBloke came home recently with his version: > Ip dip doo doo [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Of course, he's in Reception. For my fellow Americans, this appears to be about like kindergarten. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reception_(School) > By year 2 I expect it'll be "ip dip dog > sh.t", which is what we said at school too. Disgraceful. How much more pleasant is the speech of clean-minded, high-souled, wholesome American [Sorry, can't go on.] -- Jerry Friedman > On Jul 14, 7:38 am, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > "Paroxysms", if I may be so bold. You may. There was no spell chequer in the Hilton. SignatureDavid >>> usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says... >>>> That must be NW England - my children did something similar which >>>> always turned into "ip dip dog sh.t" and sent them into paroxisms [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You may. There was no spell chequer in the Hilton. Chequer? Of spells? SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>> usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Chequer? Of spells? Quite. SignatureDavid > >>> usenet.om...@gEXPUNGEmail.com says... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Chequer? Of spells? They used to have a lovely checquer in the Hilton, but, alas, it died, it died, it died. It is no more. It has ceased to be... [etc., etc.] It is an ex-chequer. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> On Jul 14, 7:38 am, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > You may. There was no spell chequer in the Hilton. There used to be, but now it's the exchequer. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >On Jul 14, 7:38 am, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Disgraceful. How much more pleasant is the speech of clean-minded, >high-souled, wholesome American [Sorry, can't go on.] That reminds me of the story of the American lady who said, "Oh sh.t! I've stepped in some doggy doo." SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk the Omrud skrev: > The participants stood in a circle with both fists extended and > clenched, apparently resembling potatoes. The command for this was > "Spuds up!". The counter would knock each spud in turn with one of his > own, on the stress points in the rhyme and the spud which was hit by > "out" was dropped. That's funny. We did exactly the same (in Denmark) when I was a kid. We didn't have a spuds-up-command though, and potatoes were not part of our rhyme or thinking. The knock on fists was just a way of marking the count. This is the rhyme we used most often: ente dente fedte klente bombarderuske sniske snuske hummer sardiner laks rosiner mandel lakrids skidt og kanel The first two lines have no meaning. The words are just sounds. The two last lines mean: lobsters sardines salmons raisins almonds liquorice dirt and cinnamon SignatureBertel, Denmark > the Omrud skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > lobsters sardines salmons raisins > almonds liquorice dirt and cinnamon You vant German and Austrian rhymes? http://jungschar.untermais.net/spiele/reime.htm _Abzählreime_ (lit., "count-off rhymes") Ene, mene, ming, mang, kling, klang, eia, weia, weg. Ich und du, <--- This is the most popular/common one. Müllers Kuh, Müllers Esel, das bist du. Ene, mene Tintenfass, geh in die Schul' und lerne was. Wenn du was gelernt hast, komm nach Haus' und sage was. Eins, zwei, drei und du bist frei. Eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben, eine alte Frau kocht Rüben. Eine alte Frau kocht Speck, und du bist weg. Geht ein Männlein über die Brück', hat ein Säcklein auf dem Rück', schlägt es an den Pfosten, Pfosten kracht, Männlein lacht: tipp-tipp-tapp- du bist ab! Das ist mein Apfel, und das ist mein Birn, und wenn du mich fangen willst, musst du dich halt rühr'n! Auf dem Berge Sinai wohnt der Schneider Kickriki. Schaut mit seiner Brille raus: Eins - zwei - drei und du bist raus! Ene, mene, meck, und du bist weg! Eine kleine Mickey Mouse zieht sich die Hosen aus, zieht sie wieder an, und du bist dran! In einer Eisenbahn fuhr eine Dickmadam. Die Eisenbahn, die krachte, die Dickmadam, sie lachte. Eins, zwei, drei und du bist frei! Ene mene muh, drauß bist du! Drauß bist du noch lange nicht, sag mir erst, wie alt du bist! Käfer, flieg ins Bäckerhaus, hol ein Korb mit Kuchen raus. Mir ein, dir ein, und du sollst drauß sein! Eine kleine Spitzmaus lief ums Rathaus, wollte sich was kaufen, hatte sich verlaufen, kam die Mutter mit dem Stock, haut sie auf den Unterrock. Unterrock war lose, haut sie auf die Hose. Hose war kaputt, und du bist futt. Eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben, acht, die Stiege kracht, das Haus fällt ein, und du mußt's sein! Eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben, ein Tiroler hat geschrieben: "Liebe Mutter, sei so gut, schick mir ein Tirolerhut. Nicht zu groß und nicht zu klein, denn er soll zur Hochzeit sein." Eins, zwei, drei, und du bist frei. Ene, mene, dubbe dene, dubbe dene dalia, ebbe, bebbe, bembio, bio, bio, buff. Auf einem bi-ba-bunten Berge wohnen bi-ba-bunte Zwerge. Und die bi-ba-bunten Zwerge haben bi-ba-bunte Kinder. Und die bi-ba-bunten Kinder essen jeden Tag ein Ei: Eins, zwei, drei, und du bist frei! Eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, mach dich auf die Strümpf, mach dich auf die Schuh, sonst bist's du! 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, eine alte Frau kocht Rüben, eine alte Frau kocht Speck. Wub, wub, wub, da war sie weg. Wub, wub, wub, da kam sie wieder, hinter ihr lief eine Maus, und du bist drauß! Meine Güte, in der Tüte saß ein Kater, macht Theater; kam der Bär, macht noch mehr, kam die Maus, und du bist drauß! Der Kuckuck auf dem Zaune saß, da kam der Regen, macht' ihn naß, dann kam der liebe Sonnenschein, und diese, diese soll es sein. Eene de meene de micke de mo, abe de babe de bombasto, ex -- drecks -- gauß, du bist drauß! Ritz und Ratz Maus und Katz Katz und Maus Du bist drauß! Eins, zwei, drei, du bist frei! Gib dich drein: du mußt's sein! Ene mene miste es rappelt in der Kiste ene mene meck und Du bist weg! Pusteblume, Löwenzahn, 1, 2, 3 und du bist dran! Hinterm Kuhstall spielt ein Ochse Fussball keiner hat's gesehn und du darfst gehn. Ene mene misste, wer klappert in der Kiste? Eine kleine Dickmadamme, fuhr mit der Eisenbahn, Eisenbahn krachte Dickmadamme lachte, lachte bis der Schaffner kam und sie mit nach Hause nahm. Ibsen, Dibsen, silber Nixen ibsen dibsen daus und du bist raus! Auf einem Gummi-Gummi Berg, da saß ein Gummi-Gummi Zwerg, der Gummi-Gummi Zwerg hatte eine Gummi-Gummi Frau, die Gummi-Gummi Frau hatte ein Gummi-Gummi Kind, das Gummi-Gummi Kind hatte eine Gummi-Gummi Hose, die Gummi-Gummi Hose hatte ein Gummi-Gummi Loch und du bist es doch. Dein Vater ist ein reicher Mann, der sich fast alles leisten kann. Er fährt mit einem tollen Wagen und darum wollen wir dir sagen: Warum fährt er an uns vorbei? Du bist sein Kind und du bist frei! Azelle, Bölle schelle. D'Katz goot uf Walliselle. Hätt sie krummi Bei, goht sie wieder hei. Biff, baff, buff und du bisch duss. Eine kleine Mikey Maus zog sich mal die Hosen aus, zog sie wieder an und du bist dran. Dran bist du noch lange nicht sag mir erst wie alt du bist. ... ist eine schlechte Zahl. Sag mir wer ist dein aller aller größter Schatz. ... hat ins Bett geschissen Mutter hats gesehen und du musst gehen! Der kleine Bør geht umhør kommt beim tigår an und du bist drån. Eins, zwei, drei Butter in den Brei. Salz auf den Speck, und du bist weg! Henriette gold'ne Kette gold'ner Schuh rauß/dran bist du! Eene Meene Mopel, Wer frißt Popel? Süß und saftig, Eine Mark und achtzig, Eine Mark und zehn, Und Du kannst gehn! 10 Zigaretten hüpfen in die Betten, hüpfen wieder raus und du bist drauß. In einer Bude saß ne Trude Kopf voller Läuse didel dadel däuse didel dadel datsch wie heißt dein heiß geliebter Schatz? ... hat sich küssen lassen mitten auf der Modestraße Mutti hats gesehn und du musst gehn. Auf einem See See See, da stand ein Reh Reh Reh, riebi bibi tasch wie heißt dein heiß geliebter Schatz? ...(Name) hat sich küssen lassen mitten auf der Kaiser Strassen, Mutti hats gesehen und du musst gehen, gehen musst du noch lange nicht, sag mir erst wie alt du bist. ...(Zahl) und dann runter zählen Coca Cola mit Aroma, Coca Cola mit Geschmack, und du bist ab! Ufem Klavier stoht es Bier wers trinkt de stinkt. Eins, zwei, drei, vier Papa braucht Bier. Vier, drei, zwei, eins Mama braucht keins. Eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, mach dich auf die Strümpf', mach dich auf die Schuh', sonst bist's du! Sieben, sechs, fünf, vier, drei, zwei, eins, geht das Hexeneinmaleins. Kinder tragen Blumenkränze, Hexen tragen Rattenschwänze, Hexenhaus hat gute Sachen und du musst die Hexe machen. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >Bertel Lund Hansen wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 308 lines] >Hexenhaus hat gute Sachen >und du musst die Hexe machen. I bet playtime was over before they got even halfway through. SignaturePaul >We used to count "spuds" at primary school: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Seven potato, more. >O U T spells out. We used that too, exactly as you wrote it, but no mention of spuds. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk the Omrud filted: >We used to count "spuds" at primary school: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I haven't thought of this for more than 40 years. It was alluded to in the theme song for "The Banana Splits" right around that time: "One banana, two banana, Three banana, four. Four bananas make a bunch And so do many more. Over hill and highway The banana buggies go, Comin' on to bring you The Banana Splits Show." Also in the t-shirt slogan: "One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor." ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > the Omrud filted: >> We used to count "spuds" at primary school: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It was alluded to in the theme song for "The Banana Splits" right around that > time: I'm thinking of somewhere around 1963. I think the Banana Splits were a little later. SignatureDavid a new Hilton the Omrud filted: >> the Omrud filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I'm thinking of somewhere around 1963. I think the Banana Splits were a >little later. Yes, in fact, the hiatus between the two seasons (=BrE "series") of the original Banana Splits series (!=BrE "series) was forty years ago this summer....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Quoth the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com>, and I quote: >> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for >> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >I haven't thought of this for more than 40 years. We had the potato rhyme roo. Others that I remember are: Pig snout walk out. All skies are blue All out but you. Eeetle ottle blackbottle Eeetle ottle out. And, of course, Eeeny Meeny with the n-word. I don't rememeber whether we said "squeals" or "screams", but it definitely wasn't "hollers". There's a big collection in "Children's Games" by Iona & Peter Opie to which the OP is referred. SignatureJames (BrE with a distinctly septentrional flavour) >We had the potato rhyme roo. Others that I remember are: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >There's a big collection in "Children's Games" by Iona & Peter >Opie to which the OP is referred. My mother and your mother were hanging out clothes. My mother punched your mother in the nose. What color was her blood? [Yell out color] B-L-U-E [or whatever] spells "blue." [The person with the "E" was out. Philadelphia, early fifties.] As for the potato rhyme, I recall "seven potato OR." Barry in Indy >As for the potato rhyme, I recall "seven potato OR." Me too (NE England). But it doesn't make sense, does it! SignatureOan > <flgbrt47@ameritech.net> writes > >As for the potato rhyme, I recall "seven potato OR." > Me too (NE England). But it doesn't make sense, does it! It sorta maybe does when you're used to seeing TV commercials for Ore-Ida potato products. ¬R > >We had the potato rhyme roo. Others that I remember are: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > B-L-U-E [or whatever] spells "blue." > [The person with the "E" was out. Philadelphia, early fifties.] Aha! This is what I was trying to remember earlier when I wrote a garbled post. Apologies for garbling. S in B In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: >> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for >> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Seven potato, more. >O U T spells out. In my world, only *girls* did that. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > >We used to count "spuds" at primary school: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > In my world, only *girls* did that. I don't know that it was exclusively girls, but certainly mostly girls who used one-potato in New Orleans, 1940s. The following was sometimes inserted between the fourth and fifth lines: My mother and your mother Were hanging out the clothes. My mother punched your mother Right square in the nose. "Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern kids would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means. I can't recall any counting rhymes other than eenie-meenie-minie-moe and one-potato-two-potato. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email On 13 Jul 2009, John Varela wrote -snip- > My mother and your mother > Were hanging out the clothes. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern > kids would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means. I think you mean "modern kids in North America". There are lots and lots of washing lines still in use here in the UK -- and not just in poor areas. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 13 Jul 2009, John Varela wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >There are lots and lots of washing lines still in use here in the UK >-- and not just in poor areas. Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather than "hanging out the clothes". SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ On 13 Jul 2009, Wood Avens wrote >> On 13 Jul 2009, John Varela wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" > rather than "hanging out the clothes". Good point. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >On 13 Jul 2009, Wood Avens wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Good point. Not in my local dialect. Monday was traditionally washing day, but you hung out the clothes to dry. My right-hand neighbour has a traditional washing line along the garden, and my left-hand neighbour has one of those folding things that opens up like a set of string umbrellas. (Something like this but with two or three levels.) http://www.philipmorris.uk.com/dept/Brabantia-Rotary-Airers-Washing-Lines The dog spooks every time he sees it going up over the fence. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England ... >Not in my local dialect. Monday was traditionally washing day, but >you hung out the clothes to dry. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >The dog spooks every time he sees it going up over the fence. The iconic Hills Hoist is normally a permanent fixture in our back yards. Larger, naughty dogs have been known to shred washing pegged thereon. http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=hills%20hoist&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >On 13 Jul 2009, Wood Avens wrote > >> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" >> rather than "hanging out the clothes". > >Good point. So what did the blackbird peck off then? Philp was in the counting house counting out the money The Queen was in the parlour eating bread and honey when a bomb came in the window and made them all go funny. As for the maid, she lost a good deal more than her nose SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather > than "hanging out the clothes". "hanging out the washing" for me, or "hanging the washing out" - I'm not very tall, but I wouldn't use "up". SignatureRob Bannister >> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" >> rather than "hanging out the clothes". > > "hanging out the washing" for me, or "hanging the washing out" - > I'm not very tall, but I wouldn't use "up". When I was responsible for a portion of the work associated with upkeep of my newborn thirteen-years-younger sister, I "did the laundry" and then "hung the laundry out to dry". My one-year-older cousin (an eventual Miss USA) taught me how to hang the sheets so that in the constant west wind they would beat on themselves and be "fluffier". More recently, we used one of the umbrella-like folded clotheslines for a year or more, until the fruit trees grew to usurp the space, when we reverted to the gas-fired tumbler. SignatureFrank ess >> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather >> than "hanging out the clothes". > > "hanging out the washing" for me, or "hanging the washing out" - I'm > not very tall, but I wouldn't use "up". <URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We%27re_Going_to_Hang_out_the_Washing_on_the_Siegfr ied_Line> SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather >>> than "hanging out the clothes". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] ><URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We%27re_Going_to_Hang_out_the_Washing_ >on_the_Siegfried_Line> Snap! SignatureIan >> Just so, but I think we might call it "hanging up the washing" rather >> than "hanging out the clothes". > >"hanging out the washing" for me, or "hanging the washing out" - I'm >not very tall, but I wouldn't use "up". <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We're_Going_to_Hang_out_the_Washing_on_the_ Siegfried_Line> I think you would only hang it "up" if you were hanging it up indoors, probably on a clothes horse (to dry, or to air). SignatureIan > > >We used to count "spuds" at primary school: > > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > "Clothes" was pronounced as a true rhyme with "nose". Modern kids > would have no idea what "hanging out the clothes" means. Nowadays, we call it "using the solar clothes dryer". SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: >>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > In my world, only *girls* did that. How very strange. I don't think girls did it at all in my world, or if they did then we boys didn't notice. SignatureDavid a new Hilton > In alt.usage.english, the Omrud wrote: >>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > In my world, only *girls* did that. Girls had much more complicated magic for skipping. SignatureRob Bannister > > What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for > > a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > I haven't thought of this for more than 40 years. This reminds of two of the more obnoxious students (both male, probably both 16) who I taught math to during the past six weeks. They were always hitting each other and threatening to fight. (Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!" and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper. -- Jerry Friedman Jerry Friedman filted: >This reminds of two of the more obnoxious students (both male, >probably both 16) who I taught math to during the past six weeks. >They were always hitting each other and threatening to fight. >(Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One >of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!" >and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper. I hope they at least called it rochambeau....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Jerry Friedman filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I hope they at least called it rochambeau....r I thought that was where they kick each other in the nuts[1]. 1. Maybe that's just on South Park Brian SignatureDay 161 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project >>> What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for >>> a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!" > and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper. As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. SignatureDavid a new Hilton the wrote on Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:38:31 +0100: > As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. It's peI might recommend a book that has counting-out rhymes not mentioned here and also other children's rhymes. It's worth looking for and is "I saw Esau", ed. by Iona and Peter Opie and illustrated by Maurice Sendak. My copy is from Candlwick Press, 1992. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not James wrote to the Omrud on Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:08:14 -0400: >> As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. > It's peI might recommend a book that has counting-out rhymes > not mentioned here and also other children's rhymes. It's > worth looking for and is "I saw Esau", ed. by Iona and Peter > Opie and illustrated by Maurice Sendak. My copy is from > Candlwick Press, 1992. -- I apologize for the unlikely first few words but my connection hiccupped as I sent the message. It was McAfee deciding to install an update at a bad moment. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not the Omrud filted: >> (Student 1, to me: "Can I hit him?" Student 2, to 1: "Do it!") One >> of their few routines that amused me was "Let's settle this like men!" >> and then with alacrity doing rock-scissors-paper. > >As long as it wasn't rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. I've recently been made aware of the existence of a vast assortment of games isomorphic to rock-scissors-paper...my favorite was kitten-tinfoil-microwave....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > the Omrud filted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > isomorphic to rock-scissors-paper...my favorite was > kitten-tinfoil-microwave....r By coincidence it was a clue on "Only Connect" a rather entertaining quiz programme on BBC4, last night. You have to guess the link between clues - each of them was a different country's version of rock, paper, scissors. I can't remember them now, but I bet they're in WikiP. SignatureDavid a new Hilton In article <c17a03ae-c6af-46ec-ae9b-3845a5985b40@d23g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>, > What is the most common phrase used by children to select a person for > a purpose in a game? If it varies from one geographical variety of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Farhad Eenie meanie miney moe Catch a tiger by the toe If he hollers make him pay Fifty dollars every day My mother told me to pick the very best one And you are (not) IT! SignatureJ. John Dawkins filted: >Eenie meanie miney moe >Catch a tiger by the toe >If he hollers make him pay >Fifty dollars every day >My mother told me to pick the very best one >And you are (not) IT! Yes...with the addition of "not", you could drag out the selection process for most of an afternoon, eliminating playmates one-by-one until you were left with just one "it".... There's a counting-out rhyme in what I assume is mock Italian used by Chico Marx in one of their movies (I want to say "Horse Feathers", during the football game)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? "Farhad": > Eeny meeny miny mo, > Catch a rabbit by the toe... Of course, the thing about these chants is that if you execute them correctly, the result is deterministic, not random. I've just remembered a scene in the Marx Brothers movie "Duck Soup" where they joke about this. Chico is picking a "volunteer" for a dangerous mission and is disconcerted to realize just before he hits the last word that it's going to turn out to be himself. So he says "I did it wrong" and tries again... The thing is that Chico's chant was completely different from "Eeny meeny miny mo" or however you spell it. I don't know if it was in a foreign language or just nonsense words. Oh, there's a dialogue transcript at <http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/d/duck-soup-script-transcript-marx.html>: WE DRAW LOTS. WAIT ! I GOT IT. RRRINGSPOT, VONZA, TWOZA, ZIG-ZAG-ZAV, POPTI, VINAGA. HAREM, SCAREM, MERCHAN, TAREM, TEIR, TORE -- I DID IT WRONG. WAIT, WAIT, I START HERE. RRRINGSPOT, VONZA, TWOZA, ZIG-ZAG-ZAV, POPTI, VINAGA. HAREM, SCAREM, MERCHAN, TAREM, TEIR, TORE -- THAT'S NO GOOD TOO. I GOT IT ! RRRINGSPOT, BUCK ! And *now* someone else is, as they say, volunteered. Anyone know *this* chant from anywhere else? Or, conversely, does anyone know if it was made up for the movie? SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net "A system which depends upon the secrecy of its algorithm is effectively a single-key code." -- William Brown II My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >I've just remembered a scene in the Marx Brothers movie "Duck Soup" >where they joke about this. Chico is picking a "volunteer" for a [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >*this* chant from anywhere else? Or, conversely, does anyone know >if it was made up for the movie? Oh, *there* it is...I thought I'd gone to the end of the thread, but you changed the subject line.... Chico *does* recite a few counting rhymes, including one containing "eeny, meenie, miney, mo" during the "Horse Feathers" football game....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > "Farhad": >> Eeny meeny miny mo, >> Catch a rabbit by the toe... > > Of course, the thing about these chants is that if you execute them > correctly, the result is deterministic, not random. I can't remember how classes were numbered back in my English primary schools, but I would have been in the equivalent of Grade 5 before I realised that you could deliberately choose where the chant was going to end up. This quickly resulted in a large variety of newer chants - wish I could remember some of them. SignatureRob Bannister |
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