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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009All but
In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of Ahoghill, ..." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/belfast-immigrants-warned-get-out-by- tomorrow-ndash-or-you-die-1741463.html Adrian http://dadge.wordpress.com/ > In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: > > "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of > Ahoghill, ..." > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/belfast-immigrants-warned-get-out-by- tomorrow-ndash-or-you-die-1741463.html All but indecipherable. --Jeff  SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >> In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >All but indecipherable. Add to that the fact Ahoghill is *unpronounceable* if you come from outside Ulster, and you have a seriously difficult sentence. -- James >>> In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: >>> >>> "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of >>> Ahoghill, ..." >>> >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/belfast-immigrants-warned-get-out-by- tomorrow-ndash-or-you-die-1741463.html All >> but indecipherable. > > Add to that the fact Ahoghill is *unpronounceable* if you come > from outside Ulster, and you have a seriously difficult sentence. From what I've seen of Irish place names I'd expect it to sound something like "owl". No doubt Peter can advise us of the proper pronunciation. Signatureathel >>>> In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >something like "owl". No doubt Peter can advise us of the proper >pronunciation. There are several local accents in Northern Ireland. The name is likely to sound differently from different mouths. My EnglishE attempt at it would be "uh-ho-ghull" where the "h" is aspirated, the "o" is the short IrBrE "cot" vowel (CINC) and the "gh" is a more guttural "h" (a soft version of the Scottish "ch"). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > All but indecipherable. Good one. SignatureMaria Conlon > In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: > > "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of > Ahoghill, ..." No, I'm sure that there are quite a number of them around here. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |To find the end of Middle English, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you discover the exact date and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |time the Great Vowel Shift took |place (the morning of May 5, 1450, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |at some time between neenuh fiftehn (650)857-7572 |and nahyn twenty-fahyv). | Kevin Wald http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: >> >> "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of >> Ahoghill, ..." > > No, I'm sure that there are quite a number of them around here. Your "quite a number"* reminds me of a tv commercial (dramatization-type) running these days for "Restasis" (sp?). The doctor asks "how long have you been using [such-and-such-remedy], and the patient says "quite some time now." Every time I hear that, I get ticked off (AmE meaning) because the doctor doesn't then say "could you more specific?" instead of just going on with the sales pitch. (Alternatively, since the ad is scripted, the patient could have said "six months" or "several years" or some-such. "Quite some time now" means nothing. It's little things like that that make me want to write letters-to-the-manufacturer telling them I'll never use their product because their commercial is stupid. (Can we trust meds that are advertised in stupid commercials? What do stupid commercials say about the makers of the product?) *Your usage of "quite a number" is fine. "Quite some time now" in an ad for a prescription medicine is not. SignatureMaria Conlon, who may write that drug company yet. > >> In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "six months" or "several years" or some-such. "Quite some time now" > means nothing. I have occasionally used a line like " well over a week now" when speaking of a decade or two. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > On Jul 14, 2:14 pm, "Maria Conlon" <conlonma...@sbcglobal.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > John Kane, Kingston ON Canada One of my oldest friends answers some questions with: " ... for as long as I can remember. Must be over a week, by now". SignatureFrank ess >It's little things like that that make me want to write >letters-to-the-manufacturer telling them I'll never use their product >because their commercial is stupid. (Can we trust meds that are >advertised in stupid commercials? What do stupid commercials say about >the makers of the product?) I used to think the same about radio adverts for a product I thought was called "Karl Metz", which I nevder saw in any shops. It was only years later that I discovered it was written "Calmettes". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes filted: >I used to think the same about radio adverts for a product I thought was >called "Karl Metz", which I nevder saw in any shops. > >It was only years later that I discovered it was written "Calmettes". My ears were assaulted for a brief time some years ago by radio ads for "Oipasin"...something to do with sores about the mouth, I think.... Shortly after the campaign began, someone must have discovered that they'd gone a bit too far in making the announcer sound "ethnic", but by then the damage was done...the hastily-revised ads, with a more neutral speaker extolling the virtues of "Herpacin", ran for an even shorter period....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Steve Hayes filted: >> I used to think the same about radio adverts for a product I thought was [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > done...the hastily-revised ads, with a more neutral speaker extolling the > virtues of "Herpacin", ran for an even shorter period....r "H-e-r-p-i-c-i-d-e spells Herpicide (Herpicide). That's the bloomin' stuff that makes your hair grow (hair grow), Guaranteed to grow hair on a scarecrow (scarecrow). "H-e-r-p-i-c-i-d-e, you see, First you rub it then you scrub it, Then you scrub it then you rub it, Then it's hair again, on me!" SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire [ ... ] > My ears were assaulted for a brief time some years ago by radio ads for > "Oipasin"...something to do with sores about the mouth, I think.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > done...the hastily-revised ads, with a more neutral speaker extolling the > virtues of "Herpacin", ran for an even shorter period....r I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: the basics", h-dropping is virtually unknown in American speech, but continues to spread in British speech. I have my doubts about the second half, because after listening carefully to people in the street in places he said were h-less I came to the opposite conclusion. What about the first half? Are there h-less American dialects? Signatureathel > I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it > stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in places he said were h-less I came to the opposite conclusion. What > about the first half? Are there h-less American dialects? I've not read the book, so don't know which areas he is talking about, but I agree with you about the first part: h-droppping is diminishing in BrE rather than spreading. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it >stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: >the basics", h-dropping is virtually unknown in American speech, Herb? > >I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it > >stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: > >the basics", h-dropping is virtually unknown in American speech, > > Herb? That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of 'herb' in USE. H-dropping is when a word which normally has the h pronounced (him, her, hospital, hoe-down etc) is pronounced without it. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Amethyst wrote on Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:12:20 +0100: >> in 253194 20090715 183232 Athel Cornish-Bowden >> <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Herb? > That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of > 'herb' in USE. H-dropping is when a word which normally has > the h pronounced (him, her, hospital, hoe-down etc) is > pronounced without it. I'd modify that comment to "That's *a* correct pronunciation" especially in New England but the "h" is also pronounced in many places. It even used to grate on my sensibilities when the great cooking show host, Julia Child, said "erb". I'm aware that Julia came from California but she had a cosmopolitan education. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Amethyst wrote on Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:12:20 +0100: >> That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Julia Child, said "erb". I'm aware that Julia came from California but >she had a cosmopolitan education. I once knew a woman who pronounced it "uuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrbs" with a prolonged "uuurrr" that made it sound like a stock character West Country local yokel. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > I'd modify that comment to "That's *a* correct pronunciation" especially > in New England but the "h" is also pronounced in many places. It even > used to grate on my sensibilities when the great cooking show host, > Julia Child, said "erb". I'm aware that Julia came from California but > she had a cosmopolitan education. I've never heard anyone sound the h in herb. My wife's grandmother pronounced it "yarb", and so do we when no one's listening. The grandmother was from Illinois; her mother was from England via Canada. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> I'd modify that comment to "That's *a* correct pronunciation" especially >> in New England but the "h" is also pronounced in many places. It even [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I've never heard anyone sound the h in herb. If you come to the British Isles, you will. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> I'd modify that comment to "That's *a* correct pronunciation" especially >>> in New England but the "h" is also pronounced in many places. It even [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >If you come to the British Isles, you will. Indeed. When we hear Americans say 'erb it tends to sound as though they are attempting to be ultra-posh, or affectedly French, in their pronunciation. To British ears 'erb is not as painful to hear as fingernails on a blackboard but it is about as noticeable. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >> I'd modify that comment to "That's *a* correct pronunciation" especially > >> in New England but the "h" is also pronounced in many places. It even [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > If you come to the British Isles, you will. But the discussion up to the point of James' reply was about US English and h-dropping. The thread still follows the subject line, for once. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> >I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it >> >stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >USE. H-dropping is when a word which normally has the h pronounced (him, >her, hospital, hoe-down etc) is pronounced without it. Yes, I was aware of that :-) By 'USE' did you mean USA or United States of Europe? >>> >I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it >>> >stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Yes, I was aware of that :-) >By 'USE' did you mean USA or United States of Europe? I guessed at United States English. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >> >I realize that your point refers more to the "er" than the h, but it > >> >stimulates a question anyway. According to Larry Trask in "Language: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, I was aware of that :-) > By 'USE' did you mean USA or United States of Europe? United States English. Also AmE (American English). SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > > Herb? > > That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of 'herb' in > USE. But the h is pronounced in the name "Herb", isn't it? SignatureChristian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de > > > Herb? > > > > That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of 'herb' in > > USE. > > But the h is pronounced in the name "Herb", isn't it? Usually, yes - because it's a different word. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> > > Herb? >> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Usually, yes - because it's a different word. Well, but if he is a neighbor of 'Arry, he might be 'Erb, mightn't he? Hmm. Do any of the "h" droppers and (h)adders add the "h" after "an" (eg anheighbor)? Reminds me of that older sister's name in "How Green was my Valley"-- "Angharad". And now I don't recall how that was pronounced, but I think the "h" was prominent. Any speakers of Welsh, here? >>> > > Herb? >>> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >"Angharad". And now I don't recall how that was pronounced, but I think >the "h" was prominent. Any speakers of Welsh, here? I'm not a Welsh speaker, but I can pronounce a few Welsh words. Ang-ha-rad (or thereabouts). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Reminds me of that older sister's name in "How Green was my Valley"-- > "Angharad". And now I don't recall how that was pronounced, but I think > the "h" was prominent. Any speakers of Welsh, here? Not a Welsh speaker, but we have a monolingual English-speaking Welsh friend from the Rhonda Valley. (Some of our best friends are Welsh, or Scottish for that matter, or even Northern Irish, catholic, protestant or atheist -- it doesn't matter to us). She has a daughter named Angharad, another daughter named Megan, and a son (you've guessed it) Llewelyn. In the way that she pronounces the name, it is more a case of a dropped "g", and a slightly emphasised and (very slightly) gutteral "h". "An-hharad". This "hh" is intermediate between an English "h" and a Scottish "ch" (as in "loch"), but much closer to the former. Said in a sing-song sort of way. I could listen to her for hours, I love the Welsh accent. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> Reminds me of that older sister's name in "How Green was my Valley"-- >> "Angharad". And now I don't recall how that was pronounced, but I think [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Said in a sing-song sort of way. I could listen to her for hours, I love > the Welsh accent. A similar sound exists in several (or most?) European languages. A Russian friend has the surname Makhover. She has to remind people here not to pronounce the k. Adrian (UK) >> in 253194 20090715 183232 Athel Cornish-Bowden >> <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of 'herb' in > USE. Do you think this h-less pronunciation started off as hypercorrection? i.e. people thought it was a French word so thought they had to drop the h? Adrian >>> in 253194 20090715 183232 Athel Cornish-Bowden >>> <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > i.e. people thought it was a French word so thought they had to drop > the h? The OED thinks it was a French word and notes that in Middle English it was usually spelled "erbe". The "h" spelling was apparently borrowed from Latin, and the word was regularly spelled that way since around 1475, but the _h_ was mute until the 19th c., and is still so treated by many. So this is another case of an "Americanism" being us preserving something that British speakers stopped doing. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law. |If you don't pay your taxes, you'll kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine, (650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to |escape from jail, you'll be shot. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke >>>> in 253194 20090715 183232 Athel Cornish-Bowden >>>> <acornish@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > So this is another case of an "Americanism" being us preserving > something that British speakers stopped doing. LOL OK Adrian >"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message >> The OED thinks it was a French word and notes that in Middle English >> it was usually spelled "erbe". The "h" spelling was apparently [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> So this is another case of an "Americanism" being us preserving >> something that British speakers stopped doing. The French pronounce it 'erb', not 'urb'. Always annoys me when radio announcers say Vurdi or Burlioz. >in 253642 20090717 201222 "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: >>"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >The French pronounce it 'erb', not 'urb'. >Always annoys me when radio announcers say Vurdi or Burlioz. There's no end to that sort of complaint. Frinstance, the BBC is running a Lunacy spot these days, in which a Jeanette Winterson has been going on about a Welsh/Irish rocket scientist, Vaughan Braughan, who began his meteoric career inventing V2s for Hitler. SignaturePaul >> in 253642 20090717 201222 "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > on about a Welsh/Irish rocket scientist, Vaughan Braughan, who began his > meteoric career inventing V2s for Hitler. I didn't hear it, but surely she has a Lancashire accent. SignatureDavid >Paul Wolff wrote: >>> Always annoys me when radio announcers say Vurdi or Burlioz. >> There's no end to that sort of complaint. Frinstance, the BBC is >>running a Lunacy spot these days, in which a Jeanette Winterson has >>been going on about a Welsh/Irish rocket scientist, Vaughan Braughan, >>who began his meteoric career inventing V2s for Hitler. > >I didn't hear it, but surely she has a Lancashire accent. There's no meeting of minds here - what is the Omrudian angle? Perhaps she has. She pronounced "von Braun", persistently, in a way that was entirely devoid of any polite relation to the man's name as he would have spoken it. Whether she did that in an Oldham or Blackburn or other Lancashire accent is not something I registered. SignaturePaul >> Paul Wolff wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it. Whether she did that in an Oldham or Blackburn or other Lancashire > accent is not something I registered. Sorry; I was obviously mistaken - I took the representation "Vaughan Braughan" as indicating an old-fashioned RP, very posh accent. SignatureDavid >>in 253642 20090717 201222 "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > been going on about a Welsh/Irish rocket scientist, Vaughan Braughan, > who began his meteoric career inventing V2s for Hitler. ;>) So, _she_ said he was Welsh/Irish, did she? >>>in 253642 20090717 201222 "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >;>) So, _she_ said he was Welsh/Irish, did she? My deduction from the funny punctuation up above is that you twigged that I pretended to infer from her eccentric pronunciation that a fanciful phonetic spelling of what she said implied that his first name could have been Welsh and his last name Irish. SignaturePaul >>>>in 253642 20090717 201222 "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > fanciful phonetic spelling of what she said implied that his first > name could have been Welsh and his last name Irish. The way we sometimes pronounce his name, he is two shades of tan. [von Braun] > The way we sometimes pronounce his name, he is two shades of tan. And that is a reasonable approximation of the German pronunciation. SignatureChristian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de >[von Braun] >> The way we sometimes pronounce his name, he is two shades of tan. > >And that is a reasonable approximation of the German pronunciation. I can never understand why UK TV adverts for Braun want us to pronounce it as "brawn". 25 years ago most people pronounced Audi as "ordi" but it is now generally pronounced the German way. Volkswagen, though, is a lost cause. >>[von Braun] >>> The way we sometimes pronounce his name, he is two shades of tan. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >as "brawn". 25 years ago most people pronounced Audi as "ordi" but it is now >generally pronounced the German way. Volkswagen, though, is a lost cause. Getting Braun right may be a lost cause outside Germany, but I rarely hear someone badly mispronounce Audi or Volkswagen these days. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>in 254017 20090719 225828 naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Getting Braun right may be a lost cause outside Germany, but I rarely > hear someone badly mispronounce Audi or Volkswagen these days. I hear Audi as "ow dee", but the only time I have ever heard Volkswagen pronounced "fokes vah gen*" (which is as near as I can come to what I _think_ is the German sound of that name) was when my younger sister was learning German. *hard "g" of course. So how do you hear it pronounced? >>> in 254017 20090719 225828 naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) >>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > So how do you hear it pronounced? I would say that the common BrE pronunciation is "VOLKS-wagon", but it comes very close to "VOLTS-wagon". SignatureDavid >>>> in 254017 20090719 225828 naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I would say that the common BrE pronunciation is "VOLKS-wagon", but it > comes very close to "VOLTS-wagon". As I hear it in USage, it is pretty much the same. Except I don't hear the "L". Just "VOKES wagun". > I hear Audi as "ow dee", I hear it as "Howdy" with the H dropped. Audi-Doody. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> I hear Audi as "ow dee", > > I hear it as "Howdy" with the H dropped. Audi-Doody. I hear Old Timer: "Owdy, Bub?" For Volkswagen, I hear "Vee Dub". SignatureFrank ess > >> I hear Audi as "ow dee", > > > > I hear it as "Howdy" with the H dropped. Audi-Doody. > > I hear Old Timer: "Owdy, Bub?" Oh, you are old. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >>>in 254017 20090719 225828 naddy@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) >>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >So how do you hear it pronounced? I hear Vokes vah gen, although I agree with you that the German V isn't exactly like our V. Is it an English F, though? Perhaps, but I'd like to hear from Rey or another expert on German. Audi is Ow dee, as you say. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE [Volkswagen] > I hear Vokes vah gen, although I agree with you that the German V > isn't exactly like our V. Is it an English F, though? Yes. The German pronunciation is /'fOlks,va:gn-/, of course. SignatureChristian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de Christian Weisgerber filted: >[Volkswagen] >> I hear Vokes vah gen, although I agree with you that the German V [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The German pronunciation is /'fOlks,va:gn-/, of course. I once saw one of those cars driving around the streets of Phoenix with a license plate that said "FOW VAY"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > The French pronounce it 'erb', not 'urb'. Interesting attempt to explain sounds with English spelling. "er", "ur" and "ir" are exactly the same in most, though not all English dialects. The French vowel is closer to the sound in "air". > Always annoys me when radio announcers say Vurdi or Burlioz. SignatureRob Bannister >> The French pronounce it 'erb', not 'urb'. > >Interesting attempt to explain sounds with English spelling. "er", "ur" >and "ir" are exactly the same in most, though not all English dialects. >The French vowel is closer to the sound in "air". I assumed you'd know what I meant, esp with the Verdi / Berlioz example. > > That's not h-dropping, that's the correct pronunciation of 'herb' in > > USE. > > Do you think this h-less pronunciation started off as hypercorrection? i.e. > people thought it was a French word so thought they had to drop the h? etymonline.com says: herb c.1290, erbe, from O.Fr. erbe, from L. herba "grass, herb." Refashioned after L. since 15c., but the h- was mute until 19c. SignatureChristian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de On Jul 15, 11:32 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> wrote: ... > According to Larry Trask in "Language: > the basics", h-dropping is virtually unknown in American speech, but > continues to spread in British speech. I have my doubts about the > second half, because after listening carefully to people in the street > in places he said were h-less I came to the opposite conclusion. What > about the first half? Are there h-less American dialects? I don't think so. We commonly drop the h in unaccented "him", "his", and "her" that aren't at the beginning of the phrase. ("Her dress looks good on 'er." On /her/, yes, but I don't have 'er figure.") Also, a fair number of people drop the h before /ju/: yuman, Youston, etc. I think that's common in New York, maybe in Chicago too. -- Jerry Friedman > On Jul 15, 11:32 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acorn...@ibsm.cnrs-mrs.fr> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and "her" that aren't at the beginning of the phrase. ("Her dress > looks good on 'er." On /her/, yes, but I don't have 'er figure.") Those are a slightly weird case, because we similarly drop the "h" in unaccented "hem", even though in stressed contexts, "hem" was replaced by "them" many centuries ago. So "'im" and "'er" may similarly be context-determined variants (like "a" and "an") rather than a productive "drop the 'h'" rule. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If the human brain were so simple 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |That we could understand it, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |We would be so simple |That we couldn't. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >by "them" many centuries ago. So "'im" and "'er" may similarly be >context-determined variants (like "a" and "an") rather than a >productive "drop the 'h'" rule. "He," "has," "have," "had," and even "how" follow the same pattern. Smells like a rule to me. ¬R Blather, Rinse, Repeat. http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/telecom.html >>by "them" many centuries ago. So "'im" and "'er" may similarly be >>context-determined variants (like "a" and "an") rather than a >>productive "drop the 'h'" rule. > > "He," "has," "have," "had," and even "how" follow the same pattern. > Smells like a rule to me. "He" does, but that's another pronoun. I don't get "how" at all, and "has", "have", and "had" behave differently, reducing fully to clitics rather than just dropping the initial consonant. I'd say that the ones that survive are fossils of a time when it was a productive rule, but, at least originally, conditioned by preceding consonant rather than stress and applying to all words beginning with /h/. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English is about as pure as a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |cribhouse whore. We don't just Palo Alto, CA 94304 |borrow words; on occasion, English |has pursued other languages down kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious (650)857-7572 |and rifle their pockets for new |vocabulary. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --James D. Nicoll > "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of > Ahoghill, ..." It looks like a editing error. He probably wrote something like "Only a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of Ahoghill, ..." then decided to change it to "All but a handful of Catholic families have now left the village of Ahoghill, ..." (or vice versa) but failed to make the two changes necessary. Signatureathel > In The Independent, David McKittrick writes: > > "All but a handful of Catholic families now remain in the village of > Ahoghill, ..." > > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/belfast-immigrants-warned-... Cannot write and seems a bit weak on logic "It has clearly generated worries among those communities, since all three of the centres would not comment on the threat." John Kane, Kingston ON Canada |
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