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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009"Will you" = "shall you"?
Hi all, When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you come?" I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall you" is easier to me than "will you". I am wondering if "what time shall you come"? sounds idiomatic to you? Thanks, MBALOVER wrote, in <4cbe24c2-d1f9-41ef-8b9f-fea4d495459d@l28g2000vba.googlegroups.com> on Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT): > Hi all, > > When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you > come?" I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall > you" is easier to me than "will you". I am wondering if "what time > shall you come"? sounds idiomatic to you? Not to me.  SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thanks, No. In fact, if anything it sounds like you are being sarcastic or dubious. At least as I learnt the usage of "Shall you" many years ago it was meant to strongly emphasis something. Thus "You shall go" was basically an order not a statement. Shall is also becoming almost obsolete in normal speach and even in writing. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you > come?" I feel difficult to pronounce it. You can't "feel difficult". You mean "I feel it's difficult to pronounce" or "I have trouble pronouncing it." (This is correct if you find the sounds hard to make. If you mean you are worried that it is incorrect usage, then you should say it a different way, perhaps using "say".) > I am wondering if "what time shall you come"? sounds idiomatic to you? No. But "What time are you coming?" or "What time are you going to come?" would be fine in everyday informal usage. SignatureMark Brader "After many years of teaching, you get to learn Toronto quite a lot about how to design a better idiot." msb@vex.net --Peter Moylan My text in this article is in the public domain. > When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you > come?" I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall > you" is easier to me than "will you". I am wondering if "what time > shall you come"? sounds idiomatic to you? The expression was used something like 150 years ago and is mostly extinct, as you can verify in published books at these links: 23 on "what time shall you come". http://books.google.com/books?q=%22what+time+shall+you+come%22&btnG=Search+Books 612 on "what time will you come" http://books.google.com/books?q=%22what+time+will+you+come%22&btnG=Search+Books As you can see, "will" has always been much more popular with "you." Marius Hancu > When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you come?" > I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall you" is > easier to me than "will you". I am wondering if "what time shall you > come"? sounds idiomatic to you? The uses of "shall" and "will" constitute one of the messiest areas in English usage; Wilson Follett devoted an entire 23-page Appendix in _Modern American Usage_ to the topic. That said, the base guidelines, which cover a great majority of cases, are not too complex. For expressing "plain future or set purpose", this table can be used (I hope it renders properly on your screen): Future Volitional ------ ---------- I/we shall I/we will you will you shall he/she/they will he/she/they shall As Follett puts it, "This conjugation, surveyed by itself, looks like a contrivance of school grammarians cunningly devised to torment the young and to make English complicated to the foreigner." But, as he further notes, "Actually, it is the product of a slow and intelligible evolution," which I will not try to set forth here. So, in the subject question, the issue is whether the person's arrival time is volitional: are we asking a question of fact or of intent? (As a few seconds' reflection will show, absent a reliable crystal ball, there can be no bright-line distinction in futurity, since any "fact" in the future is, to some degree, also an expression of volition, intent; but we are concerned with the emphasis.( Politeness seems to suggest that we should treat the question as volitional: we are asking, that is, for the person's intentions, not for an abstract prediction. Thus, the wanted form is "What time will you come?" ( = "What time do you choose to, or intend to, come?") I recommend the aforementioned essay as one of the more lucid on the topic (indeed, I recommend the entire book in which it appears). SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you come?" > I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall you" is > easier to me than "will you". I am wondering if "what time shall you > come"? sounds idiomatic to you? The uses of "shall" and "will" constitute one of the messiest areas in English usage; Wilson Follett devoted an entire 23-page Appendix in _Modern American Usage_ to the topic. That said, the base guidelines, which cover a great majority of cases, are not too complex. For expressing "plain future or set purpose", this table can be used (I hope it renders properly on your screen): Future Volitional ------ ---------- I/we shall I/we will you will you shall he/she/they will he/she/they shall As Follett puts it, "This conjugation, surveyed by itself, looks like a contrivance of school grammarians cunningly devised to torment the young and to make English complicated to the foreigner." But, as he further notes, "Actually, it is the product of a slow and intelligible evolution," which I will not try to set forth here. So, in the subject question, the issue is whether the person's arrival time is volitional: are we asking a question of fact or of intent? (As a few seconds' reflection will show, absent a reliable crystal ball, there can be no bright-line distinction in futurity, since any "fact" in the future is, to some degree, also an expression of volition, intent; but we are concerned with the emphasis.( Politeness seems to suggest that we should treat the question as volitional: we are asking, that is, for the person's intentions, not for an abstract prediction. Thus, the wanted form is "What time will you come?" ( = "What time do you choose to, or intend to, come?") I recommend the aforementioned essay as one of the more lucid on the topic (indeed, I recommend the entire book in which it appears). SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > I/we shall I/we will > you will you shall > he/she/they will he/she/they shall Right. I use BrE, and I always understood it thus: I will be King! Those who oppose me shall not prevail. Next April I shall be fifty- eight, but I will not allow myself to feel old. >> I/we shall I/we will >> you will you shall [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Those who oppose me shall not prevail. Next April I shall be fifty- >eight, but I will not allow myself to feel old. It is pointed out from time to time that the uses of shall and will are sometimes reversed in some Scottish and some Irish Englishes. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> I/we shall I/we will >> you will you shall [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Those who oppose me shall not prevail. Next April I shall be fifty- >eight, but I will not allow myself to feel old. And I understood that BrE also uses it the the other way round, as in the tale Fowler tells of the Scotsman who went south of the border and fell into a river and yelled "I will drown, no one shall save me" and, respecting his apparent wishes, no one did. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>> I/we shall I/we will >>> you will you shall [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > river and yelled "I will drown, no one shall save me" and, respecting his > apparent wishes, no one did. And I maintain that modern English speakers would be surprised to hear us discussing this, since they would most likely not recognise these distinctions. We don't want to give English learners the idea that these academic discussions are reflected in colloquial speech. SignatureDavid > And I maintain that modern English speakers would be surprised to hear > us discussing this, since they would most likely not recognise these > distinctions. We don't want to give English learners the idea that > these academic discussions are reflected in colloquial speech. You make me feel lke Doctor Johnson! I was born in 1952, I am alive now, I am just as much a "modern English" speaker as anybody else. I don't give a toss about English learners, to be frank. I refuse to dumb down the language for their benefit. >> And I maintain that modern English speakers would be surprised to hear >> us discussing this, since they would most likely not recognise these [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You make me feel lke Doctor Johnson! I was born in 1952, I am alive > now, I am just as much a "modern English" speaker as anybody else. Sorry, I intended to insert "most" before "modern". Of course, some people maintain the differential. > I don't give a toss about English learners, to be frank. I refuse to > dumb down the language for their benefit. Dumb down or evolve? I don't believe that this distinction, which is frequently discussed here, is recognised by most English speakers. It says "usage" in our name after all. SignatureDavid >>> And I maintain that modern English speakers would be surprised to hear >>> us discussing this, since they would most likely not recognise these [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >frequently discussed here, is recognised by most English speakers. It >says "usage" in our name after all. Like today's literature, films, etiquette, culinary expertise and music, evolve into dumbed down versions of what earlier generations were accustomed to. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > I don't give a toss about English learners, to be frank. I refuse to > dumb down the language for their benefit. How would these poor sods in any way benefit from it if you dumbed down your English? SignatureAatu Koskensilta (aatu.koskensilta@uta.fi) "Wovon mann nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen" - Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus > Future Volitional > ------ ---------- > I/we shall I/we will > you will you shall > he/she/t OK, but can we have the volitional "you shall" used in this context? "What time shall you come"? As my search at Google Books in the above seems to show, that hasn't been used too much at ANY time. Marius Hancu >> Future Volitional >> ------ ---------- >> I/we shall I/we will >> you will you shall >> he/she/t > OK, but can we have the volitional "you shall" used in this context? > "What time shall you come"? > As my search at Google Books in the above seems to show, that hasn't > been used too much at ANY time. It isn't; but when you come across it, one useful dodge is to substitute the appropriate form of "intend" for "will" and of "be to" for "shall". What time are you to come? I intend to be King! Those who oppose me are not to prevail. Next April I am to be fifty-eight, but I do not intend to allow myself to feel old. It doesn't produce an entirely idiomatic statement in all cases, but it sheds a certain light on what may be the intended meaning. >>> Future Volitional >>> ------ ---------- [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > It doesn't produce an entirely idiomatic statement in all cases, but it > sheds a certain light on what may be the intended meaning. An interesting sidelight is the way that--especially in the first person-- the use of simple futurity where a volitional form might be expected can act as a highly emphatic volition: "We will never accede to their requests", but "We shall never submit to their demands!" The use of the simple future implies that the "willing" involved is so adamant as to essentially assure the coming to pass of what is being willed. (That need not be restricted to dramatic effects, either: a businessman may say to someone anxious to confer with him "I shall be in my office from 4 to 5 pm today," signifying that he will make great efforts to be there.) SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ >> Future Volitional >> ------ ---------- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > As my search at Google Books in the above seems to show, that hasn't > been used too much at ANY time. That I would take as partaking more of simple futurity than volition. The difference might be illustrated by "Shall you be attending the reception tonight? If so, when will you be arriving?" The first involves sheer volition; the second, with the necessary volition assumed, involves a simple prediction. I don't pretend that all this is bright-line stuff, nor that I am expert at it. But that's my take on it. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > Hi all, > > When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you > come?" I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall > you" is easier to me than "will you". I am wondering if "what time > shall you come"? sounds idiomatic to you? I can't recall the last time I used the word "shall" in anything but the writing of a technical specification ("The contractor shall provide...") and I haven't written one of those in decades. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you >> come?" I feel difficult to pronounce it. I feel pronouncing "shall [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the writing of a technical specification ("The contractor shall > provide...") and I haven't written one of those in decades. Same here -- Lockheed specs, decades ago. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > >>> When I say "Will you" such as in the question "What time will you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Same here -- Lockheed specs, decades ago. And I, at RCA's Space Center. But I suggest that in this matter, as in many others, if some large fraction of one's audience (or readership) neither knows nor cares about the difference, it nevertheless behooves one to use the form considered proper by those who do know and care. Why irritate 10% or 5% or even 1% of your audience when you can as easily irritate 0%? SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ |
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