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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Is it known who was the first to write this expression?
I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. Do we know its author? -Ramon > I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. > Do we know its author? To get started, here's a hit from 1850 (thoughtful of them to put the date at the top of the page): http://books.google.com/books?id=syYZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA205 Many of the hits from the 1870s and '80s condemn the phrase. -- Jerry Friedman > > I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. > > Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Jerry Friedman Hmm, it is much older than I imagined. -Ramon >> > I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and >> > funny. Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hmm, it is much older than I imagined. The general form "of the _____ persuasion", which its users seem, in severe error, to think humorous, has been used for race-based as well as sex-based remarks (e.g. "of the dark persuasion"), and possibly other like uses. I have no idea of the antiquity of such uses, nor of which came first.  SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > >> > I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and > >> > funny. Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ I guess humor is in the eye of the beholder. The fundamental funny part is to pretend that some attributes can be persuaded onto a person or being. For instance: "quadrupeds of the feline persuasion". We have to keep in mind an important truth: for an insult to be, there are two requirements: (1) The insulting party (2) The insulted party Since I am of the Red Sox persuasion, I may try to insult someone: "You damn Yankees!" and he may answer: "yeah, and damn proud of it". Therefore there is no insult. The second ingredient is missing. -Ramon > >> > I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and > >> > funny. Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Cordially, > Eric Walker, Owlcroft Househttp://owlcroft.com/english/ Eric: We can rest assured that if SNL produces a joke where they mention "of the dark persuasion" or gender-based it will be genuinely funny. Why? because ingredient Number (1) for hate is missing. see my other posting. SNL makes all kinds of jokes against blacks and other minorities (and majorities: the British teeth in Parliament, drunken Irish, Italian) and we love them. -Ramon [..] >SNL makes all kinds of jokes against blacks and other minorities (and >majorities: the British teeth in Parliament, drunken Irish, Italian) >and we love them. I'm certain that all British teeth in Parliament have been heavily subsidised by the taxpayer. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > severe error, to think humorous, has been used for race-based as well as > sex-based remarks (e.g. "of the dark persuasion"), and possibly other > like uses. I have no idea of the antiquity of such uses, nor of which > came first. A quick search for "of the * persuasion" at Google Books suggests it was the literal use, mostly regarding religious persuasions. One book from 1800 has a few uses of "the Jewish Persuasion" that seem to me to refer to ethnicity rather than religion: http://books.google.com/books?id=aCFKAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA322 A treatise on the police of the metropolis; By Patrick Colquhoun "Of the Hebrew persuasion" appears in the Second Report of the Lubeck Central Committee for the Exiles from Hamburg, 31 March 1814. I'd guess it was that use that eventually made the jump to jocular use regarding nationality, race, sex, etc. ¬R >> severe error, to think humorous, has been used for race-based as >> well as sex-based remarks (e.g. "of the dark persuasion"), and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I'd guess it was that use that eventually made the jump to jocular > use regarding nationality, race, sex, etc. I don't see why it would be that one rather than any other, although I do note a few commentators who took exception with "of the Jewish persuasion", since Jews did, after all, constitute a separate race and/or nation rather than simply being adherents to a particular faith. I would think that much the same probably held of the "Hindoo persuasion" and the "Mohammedan persuasion". "Of the Jewish persuasion" goes back at least to 1771[1]. As I said elsethread, I first see the construction jumping to political parties in the 1830s, with one precursor in the 1820s. "Republican persuasion shows up in 1847. "Female persuasion" shows up in 1850 and "Male persuasion" in, 1863, as does "African persuasion". "American persuasion" in 1873. (These are all excluding snippets, which often claim to be earlier.) It even got extended to occupations, as in "persons of the tailoring persuasion" in _Punch_ in 1858. [1] To find early examples, you have to search for "of the Jewifh perfuafion". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When correctly viewed, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Everything is lewd. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |I could tell you things | about Peter Pan, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and the Wizard of Oz-- (650)857-7572 | there's a dirty old man! | Tom Lehrer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. >> Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Many of the hits from the 1870s and '80s condemn the phrase. The construction started out with religious "persuasions" (the last time I looked, I found "of the Roman persuasion" back to 1684, and most religions talked about were represented by the early nineteenth century) and it started being extended to political parties by the 1830s. I see "a person of the Whig persuasion" in _Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine_ in 1831 (and "persons of quality of the Whiggish persuasion" there in 1823) and there are several other hits for "of the Whig persuasion" in the 1830s. Walter Scott wrote of "gentlemen ... of the Tory persuasion" by 1833. "Of the female persuasion" shows up in 1850, as Jerry notes, "of the male persuasion" in 1863. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is a popular delusion that the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |government wastes vast amounts of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |money through inefficiency and sloth. |Enormous effort and elaborate kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |planning are required to waste this (650)857-7572 |much money | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. >>> Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >... of the Tory persuasion" by 1833. "Of the female persuasion" shows >up in 1850, as Jerry notes, "of the male persuasion" in 1863. The jocular usage for characteristics that we cannot be persuaded to adopt or abandon, like sex and skin colour, is pretty well worn out by now. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>>> I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. >>>> Do we know its author? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >The jocular usage for characteristics that we cannot be persuaded to adopt or >abandon, like sex and skin colour, is pretty well worn out by now. I agree it's worn out. I find it as irritating as a claim by someone who has chosen to be or do something that "I guess it's just in my DNA." SignatureJohn >>The jocular usage for characteristics that we cannot be persuaded to adopt or >>abandon, like sex and skin colour, is pretty well worn out by now. > >I agree it's worn out. I find it as irritating as a claim by someone >who has chosen to be or do something that "I guess it's just in my >DNA." The other day someone in another newsgroup was wittering on about "same-gender relationships", and I asked him how common he thought butch to butch and fem to fem relationship s were, and he said he was referring to "physical gender". I think the word he was looking for was "sex". And then someone elsewhere referred to "spiritual DNA". I give up. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. >Do we know its author? It may have been amusing the first couple of million times it was used, but it has long been a cliche. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Blog:http://methodius.blogspot.com > E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk At which point it's perfectly fine to make humour around the cliché itself, or, if you're feeling rather sure of yourself, _despite_ the cliché. > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It may have been amusing the first couple of > million time it was used, but it has long been a cliche. A young person or somebody learning English as a Second Language asks: "Hey, Ramon, how was that thing about persuasion that you mentioned?" Ramon: "Well, my dear, I am afraid that I cannot tell it to you. You see, there is a guy Steve Hayes and others in Usenet, that claim that the degree of humor of such construction has been depleted (first time hear that humor is a non-renewable, non-recyclable resource, btw). There is some sort is meter that limits the joke to 1 million instances. I am afraid you were born too late, and have to enjoy other jokes because this one has already been enjoyed. Sorry". Ramon (again): "Oh, the same goes to Pinocchio, and ..." Let's accept the sad reality: There are no classics. People should stop reading Shakespeare and Dickens right now. Hey, are you listening to Beethoven? Quit doing it, will you? It has been heard to death. -Ramon Ramon F Herrera filted: >> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >instances. I am afraid you were born too late, and have to enjoy other >jokes because this one has already been enjoyed. Sorry". Steve has a valid point, but that's not quite the mechanism at work...a joke, if it's funny at all, is funny the first time you hear it...maybe a finite number of times after that...eventually, though, it becomes trite, and ceases to be a joke at all.... The key is to make sure you're telling it to someone who hasn't heard it before (or has heard it only a very few times, if it's a real corker)...an old chestnut one hasn't heard is still funny under the "new to me" principle...the real problem with jokes that have been told too many times is that it becomes virtually impossible to find someone who's still a virgin to that particular witticism.... You can improve your odds somewhat by seeking out those who are new to the language, and are consequently less familiar with the corpus of humor in existence...(this works better when the joke depends upon a feature of the language it's told in; wry universal truths may already be familiar to an audience from having encountered them in their own tongue).... >Ramon (again): "Oh, the same goes to Pinocchio, and ..." If you can find something new to say about him, I say go for it...something you've been told by someone else is a joke already in existence, and there's a risk that your own audience heard it before you did.... >Let's accept the sad reality: There are no classics. People should >stop reading Shakespeare and Dickens right now. Hey, are you listening >to Beethoven? Quit doing it, will you? It has been heard to death. Since that's not humor (although there's some humor *in* amongst the other valued content), the principle doesn't apply...however, another contingent holds that you should disdain Will, Charlie and Louie anyway because they're all "dead white males"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Ramon F Herrera filted: >> A young person or somebody learning English as a Second Language [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > it...maybe a finite number of times after that...eventually, though, > it becomes trite, and ceases to be a joke at all.... Until it becomes so very trite that to dare to use it all becomes a joke again. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:01:00 -0700 (PDT), Ramon F Herrera >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >stop reading Shakespeare and Dickens right now. Hey, are you listening >to Beethoven? Quit doing it, will you? It has been heard to death. The joke that started the thread is comparable in length and wit to maybe one bar of music, or a phrase from a novel or play. We can find it tiresome without rejecting all music and literature by implication. Of course, if it still amuses you or some innocent you know, feel free to enjoy it. SignatureJohn > I find the expression "of the female persuasion" very witty and funny. I wonder who persuaded her[1]. 1. Found as a joke in the TV show M*A*S*H, although in response to a Frank Burns remark about a woman of "Jewish persuasion". SignatureDay 163 of the "no grouchy usenet posts" project |
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