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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009A quick question
Does the phrase 'the sands of time' originally derive from a sand- glass or from the shifting desert sands? I had always assumed the latter as it is more aesthetic, but the former seems more likely. Andrew Usher "ndrew Usher wrote: > Does the phrase 'the sands of time' originally derive from a sand- > glass or from the shifting desert sands? I had always assumed the > latter as it is more aesthetic, but the former seems more likely. I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call an "hourglass." Anyway, I think "the sands of time" signifies the passage of time, and thus the term would come from the sandglass/hourglass. I could be wrong, and if so, someone should be along soon to point that out and explain further.  SignatureMaria Conlon > "ndrew Usher wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I could be wrong, and if so, someone should be along soon to point > that out and explain further. I thought desert sands shifted remarkably quickly in a wind storm, so wouldn't be an appropriate indication of the passing of time. >> "ndrew Usher wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I thought desert sands shifted remarkably quickly in a wind storm, so > wouldn't be an appropriate indication of the passing of time. I think of it more as the slow drift of the sands gradually overlaying whatever was there. As Percy put it in Ozymandias: Near them on the sand, Half sunk, a shatter'd visage lies ... indicating that the fallen head of the statue is half covered by the drifting sands. OED's earliest cite is for Longfellow - "Leave behind us Foot-prints on the sands of time." - which is definitely not the sandglass (though OED knows sandglass from C16. NB - it's sand-glass, not sands-glass and the references I find to the contents mainly refer to the sand in the glass, not the sands. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> "ndrew Usher wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > sands-glass and the references I find to the contents mainly refer > to the sand in the glass, not the sands. The Longfellow quote is from 1839. Google Books has several from the eighteenth century, most of which have the image of them "running out", "falling", or "sinking", which would seem to give the "houreglass" reading. [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED antedating] The highest Pleasures of Life consist in having something to wish, which we are almost certain of enjoying; and the truest Method to avoid Pain, is to have the Sectret so to husband the Sands of Time, that on the one Hand, not a Grain may slide away in Waste; nor, on the other, that we should groan under the burdensome Leisure of counting them as they fall. _The London Magazine_, September, 1742 The sands of time are sinking / The dawn of Heaven breaks, Samuel Rutherford, _Joshua Redivivus_, 1766 The eldest son of this happy pair is named Prudence, the next Integrity, and the youngest Equanimity. With such friends, how swiftly run out the sands of time! how soon are misfortunes alleviated, and forgot! Thomas Joel, _Poems and Letters in Prose_, 1766 But past are those rich hours! ah! hourse of yore! Those golden sands of Time shall glide no more. Peter Pindar, _The Works_, 1794 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |And the wildest dreams of Kew 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | are the facts of Khatmandhu, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |And the crimes of Clapham | chaste in Martaban. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | (650)857-7572 | Rudyard Kipling http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > OED's earliest cite is for Longfellow - "Leave behind us Foot-prints > > on the sands of time." - which is definitely not the sandglass > > (though OED knows sandglass from C16. NB - it's sand-glass, not > > sands-glass and the references I find to the contents mainly refer > > to the sand in the glass, not the sands. OED does indicate that 'sand' could be used as a count noun in the sandglass context. This could explain the plural 'sands'. I couldn't find 'sands of time' but perhaps I just don't know how to search OED. > The Longfellow quote is from 1839. Google Books has several from the > eighteenth century, most of which have the image of them "running > out", "falling", or "sinking", which would seem to give the > "houreglass" reading. Yes. I now think this was the original, but others before me have had the same confusion and now it's become muddled together. Andrew Usher >"ndrew Usher wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Anyway, I think "the sands of time" signifies the passage of time, and >thus the term would come from the sandglass/hourglass. The song, The Sands of Time, in the Musical "Kismet" has the lyrics: Princes come, Princes go, An hour of pomp and show they know; Princes come and over the sands, And over the sands of time they go. Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Maria Conlon: > I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call > an "hourglass." Several games in our house -- probably the best-known one is Boggle -- have time limits of 3 minutes or less per turn, implemented by that sort of device. I believe similar ones also used to be sold for kitchen use. Would you still say "hourglass" for a 1-minute or 3-minute one? SignatureMark Brader What is it about Toronto Haiku that people find so msb@vex.net Infatuating? --Pete Mitchell >Maria Conlon: >> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >of device. I believe similar ones also used to be sold for kitchen use. >Would you still say "hourglass" for a 1-minute or 3-minute one? A 3-minute one would be an "egg timer". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_timer SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Maria Conlon: >>> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >A 3-minute one would be an "egg timer". >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_timer Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days still have runny whites. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>Maria Conlon: >>>> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days >still have runny whites. I understand great fun can be had with eggs in a microwave oven. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > I understand great fun can be had with eggs in a microwave oven. The trouble is, when you want to have a bit of fun with an egg, it's hard to get into the microwave with it. SignatureRob Bannister >> I understand great fun can be had with eggs in a microwave oven. > >The trouble is, when you want to have a bit of fun with an egg, it's >hard to get into the microwave with it. Even greater fun can be had baking potatoes if, like me, you have a microwave combi. You have two choices; either to bake them in a very hot oven with the fan on, which gives the crispy skin but takes half an hour or more; or cook them using microwave only, which halves the time. I hate to think how many times I've prepared the spuds using one of those plastic holders that spikes them in place and absent-mindedly put them on fan oven instead of microwave. The melted plastic takes ages to clean off. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England Robin Bignall filted: >>A 3-minute one would be an "egg timer". >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_timer > >Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days >still have runny whites. I find forty-five minutes is just about right...mind you, I'm doing this in a toaster oven....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days > still have runny whites. Either you've moved to a higher altitude or you've started refrigerating your eggs. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days >> still have runny whites. > >Either you've moved to a higher altitude or you've started >refrigerating your eggs. In that case it's refrigeration. We eat so few that if we went by "use by" dates we'd throw more away than we ate and never have any there when we fancied them. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > >>Maria Conlon: > >>> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days > still have runny whites. That's because the Thatcher government lowered the boiling point of water in the UK, as an austerity measure. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> >>Maria Conlon: >> >>> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >That's because the Thatcher government lowered the boiling point of >water in the UK, as an austerity measure. I knew it must be something other than fridges. Thanks, Roland. (Talking about fridges, ours is in the hall, and the dishwasher and washing machine are in the garage. The kitchen central heating radiator is outside the back door. We had our granite kitchen floor laid today after they grouted the wall tiles. The smell of the floor sealant is overpowering and we'll be more than glad when it's all done.) SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:05:29 -0400, Roland Hutchinson > <my.spamt...@verizon.net> wrote: [...] > >> Eggs ain't what they used to be. I find three-minute eggs these days > >> still have runny whites. > > >That's because the Thatcher government lowered the boiling point of > >water in the UK, as an austerity measure. That isn't quite how it happened. What she did was /deregulate/ the boiling point of water to widen consumer choice: any individual utility company was free to set its own. I collaborated on an analysis of the nationwide consequences for /The West Virginia Journal of Ebullition Studies/, and, apparently coincidentally, received a spate of death threats over the following twelve months. > I knew it must be something other than fridges. Thanks, Roland. Or is it just that the eggs you're getting are fresher than their predecessors? > (Talking about fridges, ours is in the hall, and the dishwasher and > washing machine are in the garage. The kitchen central heating > radiator is outside the back door. We had our granite kitchen floor > laid today after they grouted the wall tiles. The smell of the floor > sealant is overpowering and we'll be more than glad when it's all > done.) I used to have the freezer in the garage permanently. Ditto the tumble drier when I shamelessly had one...and, on reflection, at one house I had the washing machine and the central heating boiler in a separate little room with its own door from the outside. -- MIke. >I used to have the freezer in the garage permanently. Ditto the tumble >drier when I shamelessly had one...and, on reflection, at one house I >had the washing machine and the central heating boiler in a separate >little room with its own door from the outside. I have a tumble drier in the garage. It is a valuable piece of kit. I use it to dry things overnight after they have been out on the washing line during daylight hours being subject to typical "summer weather", that is ("i.e." if Arne is reading this), a random assortment of sunshine, wind and rain. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > I used to have the freezer in the garage permanently. Ditto the tumble > drier when I shamelessly had one...and, on reflection, at one house I > had the washing machine and the central heating boiler in a separate > little room with its own door from the outside. My second (or beer) fridge is in the laundry. My freezer is in the spare bedroom (also known as study). I don't have room for either a dishwasher or a drier, although the back veranda is tempting. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >My second (or beer) fridge is in the laundry. My freezer is in the spare >bedroom (also known as study). I don't have room for either a dishwasher >or a drier, although the back veranda is tempting. I have a dishwasher that's been out of order for a decade or more, and I wish I could reclaim the space it takes up for other things...I refuse to have a washer or drier in the house when there are laundromats on every corner in this city (where one may do six loads in the same time as one).... I am, however, considering acquiring a small chest freezer so I can take advantage of the frequent sales on frozen food...there's never enough room in the freezer compartment of my fridge....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >advantage of the frequent sales on frozen food...there's never enough room in >the freezer compartment of my fridge....r I didn't mean to start a "who keeps what appliance where" sort of discussion, particularly as mine were all shifted out temporarily in order to lay a granite floor in the kitchen. (Why we didn't do the floor when the kitchen was completely empty is too complicated to go into.) Everything is now back in place and only the twiddly bits across the tops and bottoms of high units, and the bottoms of low units, are yet to be fitted. Photos will inevitably follow when it's completed. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England [...] > >I have a dishwasher that's been out of order for a decade or more, and I wish I > >could reclaim the space it takes up for other things...I refuse to have a washer [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I didn't mean to start a "who keeps what appliance where" sort of > discussion,[...] I'm sure you didn't. But now I want to know why Ron hasn't simply dumped his u/s dishwasher and stuck in some shelves or something. Can one be sentimentally attached to white goods? -- Mike. On 22 Jul 2009, Mike L wrote > [...] >>> >>> I have a dishwasher that's been out of order for a decade or >>> more, and I wish I could reclaim the space it takes up for >>> other things... -snip- >> I didn't mean to start a "who keeps what appliance where" sort >> of discussion,[...] > > I'm sure you didn't. But now I want to know why Ron hasn't > simply dumped his u/s dishwasher and stuck in some shelves or > something. Can one be sentimentally attached to white goods? Possibly -- we had a washing machine that did sterling service for about 20 years before it finally gave up the ghost, and I was a bit sad to see it go. Not sad enough to leave it in place for another decade, mind you... (And a non-working dishwasher??? When our dishwasher broke down -- the timer went, and a replacement was more than half the cost of a new one with new rather than perished door seals -- we went out the same day to replace it. Essential kit.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS filted: >(And a non-working dishwasher??? When our dishwasher broke down -- >the timer went, and a replacement was more than half the cost of a >new one with new rather than perished door seals -- we went out the >same day to replace it. Essential kit.) I replaced mine by switching to paper plates and plastic cutlery....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? HVS wrote, in <Xns9C50E2A4EDF59whhvans@news.albasani.net> on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:16:48 +0100: > (And a non-working dishwasher??? When our dishwasher broke down -- > the timer went, and a replacement was more than half the cost of a > new one with new rather than perished door seals -- we went out the > same day to replace it. Essential kit.) My last one the door fell off! Again a same day replacement. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE >HVS wrote, in <Xns9C50E2A4EDF59whhvans@news.albasani.net> > on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:16:48 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >My last one the door fell off! Again a same day replacement. When we moved into our newly-built house in France (1977) we bought a Meile dishwasher, which was still washing dishes as well after 20 years as it did on day one. However, the door latch had worn, and to keep it going a heavy chair weighted with bricks had to be leant against its door after it was switched on. After my sons had left home (they were the heavy-chair lifters) my ex threw it out. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> HVS wrote, in <Xns9C50E2A4EDF59whhvans@news.albasani.net> >> on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:16:48 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > against its door after it was switched on. After my sons had left > home (they were the heavy-chair lifters) my ex threw it out. Reminds me of my top-opening freezer which I got second-hand some 20 years ago. It works fine with a brick on top. SignatureRob Bannister > >> HVS wrote, in <Xns9C50E2A4EDF59whhvans@news.albasani.net> > >> on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:16:48 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Reminds me of my top-opening freezer which I got second-hand some 20 > years ago. It works fine with a brick on top. I had a chest freezer like that, but I had to dump it when I moved. But, Robin! You astound me: last time I had a washing-machine door fail, I just fitted a new part. And that was a Hotpoint or something: a lot less noble than magnificent Miele. -- Mike. >> >> HVS wrote, in <Xns9C50E2A4EDF59whhvans@news.albasani.net> >> >> on Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:16:48 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >fail, I just fitted a new part. And that was a Hotpoint or something: >a lot less noble than magnificent Miele. This was my ex, Mike, still in France, while I was here. She's not quite that far gone that she'll throw a Mercedes away because its ash trays are full, but she doesn't like things that don't work properly. For some reason that I can't make out, getting people to your house to fix something costs a fortune in France. She's been looking for years to find a reliable gardener just to mow lawns and keep bushes trimmed, but without success. The law has recently been changed, but up until now it's been extremely expensive to set yourself up as a one-person business. You have to pay all sorts of fees to various bodies even if you make zero income, let alone profit. Oh, and my sons can't or won't fix dishwasher doors, etc. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > I had a chest freezer like that ObUsage: In a commune I used to belong to, we had one of those. We called it the downright, for contrast. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Mixima should be rendered manimal. :|| Joe Fineman filted: >> I had a chest freezer like that > >ObUsage: In a commune I used to belong to, we had one of those. We >called it the downright, for contrast. Was it Mae West who said that sex was like a piano?...when it's not upright, it's grand....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Joe Fineman filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Was it Mae West who said that sex was like a piano?...when it's not upright, > it's grand....r She was no chest freezer, mind you. -- Mike. > [...] >>> I have a dishwasher that's been out of order for a decade or more, and I wish I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > dumped his u/s dishwasher and stuck in some shelves or something. Can > one be sentimentally attached to white goods? Yes. My mum died two years ago and I still have her freezer, empty, in our garage. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >I'm sure you didn't. But now I want to know why Ron hasn't simply >dumped his u/s dishwasher and stuck in some shelves or something. Can >one be sentimentally attached to white goods? I suppose one can. I'm sentimental about a lot of things, but I can't imagine having a sentimental attachment to appliances. (Unless, I suppose, I were a designer of such devices.) When my dishwasher died a couple of years ago, I replaced it. Likewise my kitchen waste disposer and my stand mixer. I do still have the microwave I got for my previous home, because the built-in one in the current place is a poor design (but difficult to remove because it's integrated with the range hood). My washer and dryer are in the basement, a source of continuing irritation to me, because it means I have to be dressed to do laundry. (There's no access to the basement from inside my home.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >> Maria Conlon: >>> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > A 3-minute one would be an "egg timer". > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_timer And a 4-minute one a shower timer: http://www.greenleap.com.au/shop/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=345 SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >Maria Conlon: >> I've never heard the word "sandglass" -- which I presume is what I call [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >of device. I believe similar ones also used to be sold for kitchen use. >Would you still say "hourglass" for a 1-minute or 3-minute one? I'm with Maria. Hourglass is the name of those things which use falling sand to measure a time. Never heard of a "sandglass" before, and certainly never imagined that the word "hourglass" should be restricted to describing hourglasses that actually run for an hour. I see the word "hour" in there, but I read it in the less exact sense of "the hour is getting late" in which it stands for time in general, not 60 minutes specifically. Comparative google-ology: Boggle hourglass ... about 26,200 results Boggle sandglass ... about 652 results A lot of people (including the official instructions) just say "timer". Boggle timer ... about 1,520,000 results Oh, an unexpected bonus argument: spell check on the body of this article complained about "sandglass". I don't have the biggest possible word list installed, but it's not complaining about "hourglass". SignatureAlan Curry > Does the phrase 'the sands of time' originally derive from a sand- > glass or from the shifting desert sands? I had always assumed the > latter as it is more aesthetic, but the former seems more likely. Longfellow agrees with your original asumption: Lives of great men all remind us We can make our lives sublime. And, departing, leave behind us Footprints on the sands of time. http://www.geocities.com/athens/forum/6496/Poetry.html#The Sands Maybe Shelley too, by implication: Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away. http://holyjoe.org/poetry/shelley.htm |
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