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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Dint and time
It seems to me that "dint" usually implies physical action -- by dint of hard work -- which is consitent with its origins as a variant of "dent". What about time -- does the following make sense? "The use of the room, by sheer dint of time, has now become historic in its own right."  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >It seems to me that "dint" usually implies physical action -- by dint >of hard work -- which is consitent with its origins as a variant of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >"The use of the room, by sheer dint of time, has now become historic >in its own right." As you say, "dint" is a variant of "dent". OED: dint, n. 2. The dealing of blows; hence, force of attack, assault, or impact (lit. and fig.); violence, force, attack, impression. Now rare exc. as in c. c. Hence by (the) dint of: by force of; by means of (with implication of vigour or persistence in the application of the means). (The current idiom.) I think that "by dint of time" fits that sense, even if a touch figuratively. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> It seems to me that "dint" usually implies physical action -- by dint >> of hard work -- which is consitent with its origins as a variant of [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I think that "by dint of time" fits that sense, even if a touch > figuratively. Ayuh. It sounds strange to me, but OED has quite a range of applications: 1664 Butler Hud. ii. iii. 291 Chace evil spirits away by dint Of Cickle, Horse-shoe, Hollow-flint. 1685 Cotton tr. Montaigne (1877) I. 36 Subdued by+dint of valour. 1712 Addison Spect. No. 411 37 Pleasures of the Fancy+which are worked out by Dint of Thinking. 1764 Goldsm. Hist. Eng. (1772) II. 102 Tallard+had risen by the dint of merit alone. 1771 Smollett Humph. Cl. (1815) 159 By dint of cross-examination, I found he was not at all satisfied. 1826 Scott Jrnl. 25 Dec., By dint of abstinence+I passed a better night. 1871 L. Stephen Playgr. Europe ii. (1894) 65 Schiller endeavours to give the local colour+by dint of inserting little bits of guide-book information. 1878 Browning La Saisiaz 29 We+Earned, by dint of failure, triumph. My personal favourite? "by dint of inserting little bits of guide-book information" SignatureJohn "by dint of my father marrying my mother" Dean Oxford >>> It seems to me that "dint" usually implies physical action -- by >>> dint of hard work -- which is consitent with its origins as a >>> variant of "dent". >>> What about time -- does the following make sense? >>> "The use of the room, by sheer dint of time, has now become >>> historic in its own right." >> As you say, "dint" is a variant of "dent". >> OED: >> dint, n. >> 2. The dealing of blows; hence, force of attack, assault, or >> impact (lit. and fig.); violence, force, attack, impression. >> Now rare exc. as in c. >> c. Hence by (the) dint of: by force of; by means of (with >> implication of vigour or persistence in the application of the >> means). (The current idiom.) >> I think that "by dint of time" fits that sense, even if a touch >> figuratively. > Ayuh. It sounds strange to me, but OED has quite a range of > applications: > 1664 Butler Hud. ii. iii. 291 Chace evil spirits away by dint Of > Cickle, Horse-shoe, Hollow-flint. 1685 Cotton tr. Montaigne (1877) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > guide-book information. 1878 Browning La Saisiaz 29 We+Earned, by > dint of failure, triumph. All the dictionary examples imply, not physical action, but some sort of effort. This does not apply to the original example "by dint of time". I can't comment on the example in the sig. > My personal favourite? "by dint of inserting little bits of > guide-book information" On 17 Jul 2009, CDB wrote >>>> It seems to me that "dint" usually implies physical action -- >>>> by dint of hard work -- which is consitent with its origins [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> Ayuh. It sounds strange to me, but OED has quite a range of >> applications: -snip quotes- > All the dictionary examples imply, not physical action, but some > sort of effort. This does not apply to the original example "by > dint of time". I can't comment on the example in the sig. That's my reservation, too -- but it popped into mind when I wrote it as if that was the expression I was looking for. I'll have to ponder it for the final edit of the report. Thanks to all for the comments. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 17 Jul 2009, CDB wrote >>>>> It seems to me that "dint" usually implies physical action -- >>>>> by dint of hard work -- which is consitent with its origins >>>>> as a variant of "dent". >>>>> What about time -- does the following make sense? >>>>> "The use of the room, by sheer dint of time, has now become >>>>> historic in its own right." >>>> As you say, "dint" is a variant of "dent". >> >>>> OED: >>>> dint, n. >>>> 2. The dealing of blows; hence, force of attack, assault, or >>>> impact (lit. and fig.); violence, force, attack, impression. >>>> Now rare exc. as in c. >>>> c. Hence by (the) dint of: by force of; by means of (with >>>> implication of vigour or persistence in the application of the >>>> means). (The current idiom.) >>>> I think that "by dint of time" fits that sense, even if a >>>> touch figuratively. >>> Ayuh. It sounds strange to me, but OED has quite a range of >>> applications: > -snip quotes- >> All the dictionary examples imply, not physical action, but some >> sort of effort. This does not apply to the original example "by >> dint of time". I can't comment on the example in the sig. > That's my reservation, too -- but it popped into mind when I wrote > it as if that was the expression I was looking for. I'll have to > ponder it for the final edit of the report. > Thanks to all for the comments. "By dint of sheer persistence"? That brings a kind of effort into the picture, and I think "persistence" is better than "endurance" for something immaterial, like a custom. On 19 Jul 2009, CDB wrote >> On 17 Jul 2009, CDB wrote > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > into the picture, and I think "persistence" is better than > "endurance" for something immaterial, like a custom. Possibly; the subject is a large, historic building for which I'm drafting conservation policies. In these particular cases it's not that there's been any effort at all involved -- no endurance or persistence, really -- but that the (sometimes peculiar) uses are so long-standing that any future proposals to shift them about needs to be thought about rather than done for no good reason. Perhaps something like "The use of the room, by the simple passage of time, has now become historic in its own right"? SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed HVS wrote, in <Xns9C4D91F99B7AEwhhvans@news.albasani.net> on Sun, 19 Jul 2009 14:20:59 +0100: > On 19 Jul 2009, CDB wrote > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > Perhaps something like "The use of the room, by the simple passage > of time, has now become historic in its own right"? That sounds right. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE [snip discussion of "dint"] > Possibly; the subject is a large, historic building for which I'm > drafting conservation policies. In these particular cases it's not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Perhaps something like "The use of the room, by the simple passage > of time, has now become historic in its own right"? Is what you mean "simply by the passage of time"? I don't see how time can pass more simply in one place than other. As if there is simple passage of time and complex passage of time. "Long-standing" is good. "Long-standing tradition"? And anyway, all the simple passage of time in an empty room is going to get you is a lot of dust. Somebody had to have made more of an effort than that, in order for something to be worthy of being "historic." I imagine you are going to go on and mention some specifics, like the British Soap Bubble Society has been meeting there for almost two hundred years and holds their annual festival in the garden... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux On 19 Jul 2009, Donna Richoux wrote > [snip discussion of "dint"] > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > almost two hundred years and holds their annual festival in the > garden... Things like "is unchanged since it was fitted out as a silver pantry 150 years ago, and is still used for that purpose". My policy point is that the physical fittings are not the only historically-significant aspect of the room: the use itself -- by virtue of its continuity -- is also of conservation significance. (YMMV as to whether such a use can or can't be deemed "historically significant", but that point's not really up for discussion here.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > [snip discussion of "dint"] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I don't see how time can pass more simply in one place than other. As > if there is simple passage of time and complex passage of time. I don't think the contrast is between simple and complex passages of time. The distinction is between change that has occurred simply because time has passed - eg a deserted castle - and change that has occurred through time and action - eg a fort which has been assaulted and besieged and then abandoned. The statue of Ozymandias was that way by the simple passage of time. The statue of Saddam was that way because of the concerted action of a couple of hundred Iraqis. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford |
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