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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Sing - Natural or Acquired?
My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, and then hurry over to the Methodist church or the Presbyterian church to sing in their choir. (Our church didn't have a choir) More than once she changed choir churches to follow a choir director. We used to joke that her religion was "Alto". Later in life she sang with a municipal choir for several years. I am the person that they had in mind when the expression "can't carry a tune in a bucket" was coined. When watching "American Idol" one night, I found that I notice when someone gets off-key, but can't tell they are off-key if they start out that way. My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to sing. I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes has to be coaxed, or if some people - like me - just do not have that ability. Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been taught as a child?  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of > several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ability. Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been > taught as a child? In my experience, you can learn to sing at any age. When I was a kid a lot of family get-togethers centred round music and there were some accomplished musicians on the roster. I was tuneless and was occasionally encouraged to sing (usually 'Home on the Range', I forget why) to entertain folks with my screeching. Then when I was 15 I got a guitar. At first my singing was as bad as ever. But I got into the habit of teaching myself to play the melody line on the guitar and match my voice to it. By the time I was 18 I could carry a tune, even without the guitar. At Uni I roomed with a guy who was a member of his local choir and involved with singing in various semi-official capacities. He thought I sang OK and was impressed with the way I slid onto notes. He'd been taught to hit notes dead on and thought my style was some kind of folk/blues thing. He never knew it was the consequence of sliding my voice up and down until it sounded in unison with the guitar note I was playing. There may be people with a physical impediment which prevents them singing in tune, but I think a lot of people who believe they can't sing are simply people who a) lack the confidence to go for it and / or b) haven't found a method of learning that takes them at the pace they need to travel. So I think you would be a singer if you'd had the encouragement / tuition as a kid, and I suspect you still could be if you invested the time and found a suitable mentor or, possibly, if you just sat at a piano half an hour a day and schooled yourself to bleat in unison with the keys. (And you could do that even if you weren't a pianist). That said, it's also true that some people are naturals and they start singing the way they start walking - because it seems the next natural step. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of >> several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > start singing the way they start walking - because it seems the > next natural step. I have a little of Tony's and John's going in my vocal ability/behavior. My mother was a marvelous singer, joined and sang with several groups, including (late-middle 1940s) "The Mothersingers" from one of my schools. I never learned a lot of singing, but I did get beyond what I noticed in my daughter's and granddaughter's elementary school classes: up to some age or another children are rare who don't regard "saying much louder" in chorus as "singing". I like to sing, but can't be trusted to get on key before the end of the National Anthem, judging by the sidelong looks I get at ball games and the like. If, on a family trip, I begin early, by the second or third day I can do a decent job of singing on-key the songs my father sang to us, and maybe a few other songs from singing times*. Usually remember most of the words, too. When I was born my Ma and Pa Just looked at me and said, "Oh pshaw"**. The nurse she said, "A boy, I think", The doc went out to get a drink. They always, always, pick on me, Never, ever, let me be. I know what I'll do by and by: I'll eat a worm and then I'll die. And when I'm gone I know they'll be Mighty sorry that they picked on me. *On my semi-rural fifth-grade bus-ride to school, the entire group of riders would sing popular songs of the day. "I'm Looking Over A Four-Leaf Clover" "Red Sails In The Sunset" "Mañana" "Nature Boy" Somewhat later, "Black Leather Jacket With An Eagle On The Back" was a favorite for bellowing as a group of motor sports enthusiasts rocketed down the eponymous road with "He was the terror of Highway 101", early-morning joy on the way to Santa Barbara or Torrey Pine to see the "sports car races". Still even more later, when my business required a forty-five-minute solo drive (each way) on two or three days a week, I sang along with a Huun Huur Tu CD, actually getting a bit of throat song going. Still, not really to be trusted with a melody. ** We had a Corgi/Border Collie mix puppy born on our premises. His testicles were absent from birth. "Pshaw" was a natural for his name. SignatureFrank ess ... > In my experience, you can learn to sing at any age. ... > Then when I was 15 I got a guitar. At first my singing was as bad as ever. > But I got into the habit of teaching myself to play the melody line on the > guitar and match my voice to it. ... So you could tell when the note you were singing was the same as the one from the guitar? And if not, which one was higher? That must have been very helpful. I actually may be capable of this feat. On two occasions (treasured in my memory), people have told me I sang the same thing they sang or played. So I probably could do better with practice. But I'm pretty sure I'd need human or electronic help to know when I was hitting the notes and when I wasn't. -- Jerry Friedman > ... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > one from the guitar? And if not, which one was higher? That must > have been very helpful. Uh huh. Same principle as tuning the guitar when you, eg, depress the second string at the fifth fret so it plays the same note as the open first string. When two notes are almost in unison there's a horrible wobble and when they get together the wobble stops. (It also stops when they get further away which is why it takes time and practice). > I actually may be capable of this feat. On two occasions (treasured > in my memory), people have told me I sang the same thing they sang or > played. So I probably could do better with practice. But I'm pretty > sure I'd need human or electronic help to know when I was hitting the > notes and when I wasn't. Try it in the shower. The shower will emit a low, continuous note. Try and hum it. When you hit it, there'll be a euphonious serendipity. Ditto with electric shavers. "learn to sing in tune" will give interesting and useful results in a search engine. And, yes, there are electronic aids. And many people on YouTube want to give you the benefit of their two centavos. Like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5Eeb7gfwZk But NOT like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WTQTHvW87Q "What would you do if I sang out of tune, Would you stand up and walk out on me ? Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song And I'll try not to sing out of key." SignatureJohn "Desafinado" Dean Oxford John Dean skrev: > "What would you do if I sang out of tune, > Would you stand up and walk out on me ? > Lend me your ears and I'll sing you a song > And I'll try not to sing out of key." Ringo Star is an example of someone who took up singing relatively late and yet learned to sing acceptably well. It is clear that he improved along the way. SignatureBertel, Denmark > John Dean skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > relatively late and yet learned to sing acceptably well. It is > clear that he improved along the way. How do you know little Richard Starkey wasn't in the school choir? And his first commercial recording [1] was released when he was 21 which I don't personally count as "relatively late". I believe he'd sung on stage before that. Mind you, I also dispute that he ever sang "acceptably well" though a lot of people loved him. [1] He sang the lead on "Boys" on the Beatles "Please Please Me" album. SignatureJohn "Starr with 2 r's" Dean Oxford John Dean skrev: > How do you know little Richard Starkey wasn't in the school choir? I don't *know*, but I am pretty sure he didn't. I deduce backwards from the fact that he started out as a lousy singer and became acceptable. If he had had choir practice (worth anything) as a boy, he wouldn't have been lousy later on. SignatureBertel, Denmark > John Dean skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > relatively late and yet learned to sing acceptably well. It is > clear that he improved along the way. ObFaintPraise: His acting got better, too. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> ... >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > also stops when they get further away which is why it takes time and > practice). That's the "beat frequency", but I don't think it would help with "singing the wrong note". I had thought that you had to be considerably within a single chromatic step for it to be audible. Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics) says that the beat disappears at about 15 Hz. (I wouldn't have thought that it was absolute rather than relative.) For a guitar, the low E is E2, at about 82 Hz, and 15 Hz covers quite a range (from C below to almost G above). For singing, though, middle C is at 261 and change, and 15 Hz barely gets to the B below and doesn't reach to the C# above. Above middle C, being even a semitone off should be too much to hear a beat. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell |you. (If you're not that certain, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.) (650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> So you could tell when the note you were singing was the same as >>> the one from the guitar? And if not, which one was higher? That >>> must have been very helpful. >the C# above. Above middle C, being even a semitone off should be too >much to hear a beat. Moreover, you need to be singing a pretty steady constant pitch, which most people who "can't sing" probably won't do. And certainly you need to have got quite close, which again is rare in non-singers. I have noticed, however, that very many people will make a much better shot at matching a note that is sung to them than one played on a piano, or guitar. This applies even if it's sung in the wrong octave - indeed, if I give a note for a bass singer at the correct bass pitch, he will often try to sing it an octave lower, whereas if I sing the higher octave he will come in correctly, often without noticing that we're not singing the same note. When I had to coach a young violinist who "always failed his ear tests", I found that singing notes for him was very helpful. Given a note on the piano, he not only couldn't sing it but he couldn't tell which of two piano notes was higher. With a voice (mine or his) he had no problem at least with that. (This boy was taking Grade 8 violin, which for our non-UK readers is pretty advanced - usually taken in late teens by someone who's been learning seriously for at least six or seven years. I never did find out how he tuned his violin.) I share the view that very very few people really can't sing, given motivation and teaching. But there is a huge range between those who have always been able to sing and those who have to work hard to learn. Katy On Jul 18, 2:34 pm, k...@cam.ac.uk wrote: > In article <ocrhq59s....@hpl.hp.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sung in the wrong octave - indeed, if I give a note for a bass singer at the > correct bass pitch, You can sing bass? I'm impressed! > he will often try to sing it an octave lower, whereas if I > sing the higher octave he will come in correctly, often without noticing that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > he not only couldn't sing it but he couldn't tell which of two piano notes was > higher. With a voice (mine or his) he had no problem at least with that. Timbre is involved for me too, but differently. I have lots of trouble comparing different timbres. I can tune a guitar to itself, using the beats when I get close, but I have far more trouble tuning a guitar to a piano. I suspect that in singing, I'd have more success matching a piano than matching a guitar, and matching a voice (in unison, not in a different octave) would work the best, as you say. > (This boy was taking Grade 8 violin, which for our non-UK readers is pretty > advanced - usually taken in late teens by someone who's been learning seriously [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and teaching. But there is a huge range between those who have always been > able to sing and those who have to work hard to learn. Given your experience, I can't argue with that. Good thing I don't want to. -- Jerry Friedman >>>> So you could tell when the note you were singing was the same as >>>> the one from the guitar? And if not, which one was higher? That [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Katy For many types of music, most singers in a choir become reasonably skilled in singing either the same note as other people in their section or a note a third, fifth or an octave higher or lower. We easily recognize those intervals, it seems, with little to no training, including when we are singing alone. Other intervals are more difficult to become proficient in, for most people. When posters have written that "everyone can sing", I suspect this may be what they are referring to. This ability seems to come naturally to nearly everyone, to one degree or another. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs skrev: > For many types of music, most singers in a choir become reasonably > skilled in singing either the same note as other people in their > section or a note a third, fifth or an octave higher or lower. Those are notes whose frequence has a simple numeric relation to the frequence of the tonica (basic tone). > When posters have written that "everyone can sing", I suspect this may > be what they are referring to. Not I. I mean that most people can learn to sing melodies in tune regardless of which intervals they are composed of - within 'ordinary' limits. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Those are notes whose frequence has a simple numeric relation to >the frequence of the tonica (basic tone). Yes. BTW, the above sentence should read "frequencies have", "frequency", "tonics" and "basic tones", I believe. >> When posters have written that "everyone can sing", I suspect this may >> be what they are referring to. > >Not I. I mean that most people can learn to sing melodies in tune >regardless of which intervals they are composed of - within >'ordinary' limits. I took my best shot. It is up to you to define "ordinary limits" if you disagree, for otherwise your statement is meaningless, it seems to me. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs skrev: > >Those are notes whose frequence has a simple numeric relation to > >the frequence of the tonica (basic tone). > Yes. > BTW, the above sentence should read "frequencies have", "frequency", > "tonics" and "basic tones", I believe. I made some errors. Thanks for the correction. A language question: Wouldn't this sentence be correct: Those are notes whose frequency has a simple numeric relation to the frequency of the tonic (basic tone). Can't one say (whether or not it is true): There are many people whose left ear is larger than their right ear. It seems a bit funny to say: There are many people whose left ears are larger than their right ears. > >Not I. I mean that most people can learn to sing melodies in tune > >regardless of which intervals they are composed of - within > >'ordinary' limits. > I took my best shot. It is up to you to define "ordinary limits" if > you disagree, for otherwise your statement is meaningless, it seems to > me. I won't define "ordinary limits". Not everybody can learn to master singing equally well. Many will never learn to sing complex melodies with huge tone jumps or complicated rhytms. You can think of "well-known childrens' songs" or "well-known pop melodies" as examples within "ordinary limits". I wanted to emphasize that most people can learn to sing melodies solo and not just lean on others or instruments. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I made some errors. Thanks for the correction. I'd also point out: not "numeric" here, but "numerical". (I have no idea why.) The grammar is now corrected, but perhaps not the music theory. I'm not sure that "tonics" is what you mean. I would have written "the frequencies of the root and/or the bass of the chord being sounded" (given that the sounding bass note isn't always the root of the chord). > A language question: > Wouldn't this sentence be correct: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > There are many people whose left ear is larger > than their right ear. Yes. That's perfect English. And "Those are the notes whose frequency has a simple numerical realtionship to the tonic" would also be acceptible English. > It seems a bit funny to say: > > There are many people whose left ears are larger > than their right ears. It does, indeed. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > The grammar is now corrected, but perhaps not the music theory. I'm not > sure that "tonics" is what you mean. In music theory there is: tonic, dominant and subdominant - e.g. C, F and G. "Tonic" is the basic tone like C in C-major. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In music theory there is: tonic, dominant and subdominant - e.g. > C, F and G. C, G, and F, no? The others also have names. B and D are "subtonic" and "supertonic", E is "mediant", and A is "submediant". (Yeah, it makes sense. The mediant is two steps above the tonic, and the submediant is two steps below.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |To express oneself 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |In seventeen syllables Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is very diffic | Tony Finch kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > > In music theory there is: tonic, dominant and subdominant - e.g. > > C, F and G. > C, G, and F, no? Yes, of course. > The others also have names. Thanks, I didn't know those. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Yes, of course. Was there a call to be rude, Bertel? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Was there a call to be rude, Bertel? ??? Bertel was simply acknowledging Evan's correction of something that he, Bertel, had written. I didn't see any rudeness either deliberate or accidental. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Chuck Riggs skrev: > Was there a call to be rude, Bertel? I didn't know that I was. I still dont think so. But if it pleases you, I can add some comments and graphics to my statement: [slapping forehead] ... Yes, of course :-) Better? SignatureBertel, Denmark >Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Better? Yes, that or "Well, slap my face!" if you want to get physical in your responses. As for smileys and other graphics, they are reminiscent of AOL, which I'd just as soon not be reminded of, thank you very much. My problem, and it may be only my problem, with "Yes, of course" in newsgroups and in conversation is that it is too flippant to be in the polite category of responses, as I see them. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs skrev: > Yes, that or "Well, slap my face!" if you want to get physical in your > responses. As for smileys and other graphics, they are reminiscent of > AOL, which I'd just as soon not be reminded of, thank you very much. You will get neither comments nor smileys since they only reveal that the writer is unable to express himself in words. This was a one time only just for you. SignatureBertel, Denmark >Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >that the writer is unable to express himself in words. This was a >one time only just for you. :-) SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Was there a call to be rude, Bertel? Nothing in what Bertel wrote there was rude, Chuck. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > >> ... > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "singing the wrong note". I had thought that you had to be > considerably within a single chromatic step for it to be audible. Yes. My feeling is that I couldn't reproduce a guitar or piano note closely enough to hear the beats. However, judging from those experiences I mentioned, I may be wrong. Also, I'd have some problem with steadiness, as Katy mentioned. > Wikipedia > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics) > > says that the beat disappears at about 15 Hz. (I wouldn't have > thought that it was absolute rather than relative.) It's absolute because below about 15 Hz (trusting Wikip on the number), we hear variations in amplitude as discrete events, in this case variations in loudness, but above that we hear them as sounds. In this case the sound is called the difference tone, and it's much harder to hear than beats. > For a guitar, the > low E is E2, at about 82 Hz, and 15 Hz covers quite a range (from > C below to almost G above). I won't swear that I could get even that close, though I haven't tried it. > For singing, though, middle C is at 261 > and change, and 15 Hz barely gets to the B below and doesn't reach to > the C# above. Above middle C, being even a semitone off should be too > much to hear a beat. Maybe I should aim for baritone. -- Jerry Friedman > ... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > sure I'd need human or electronic help to know when I was hitting the > notes and when I wasn't. Yes. Feedback (and encouragement) is a big part of how this is typically taught. And it very definitely _can_ be taught. Heck, after a few thousand hours of work, we can not just have you accurately singing tunes that you have heard; we can have you accurately singing tunes you've never heard -- by reading them from music notation. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > ... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > accurately singing tunes that you have heard; we can have you accurately > singing tunes you've never heard -- by reading them from music notation. For just getting the intervals right, that wouldn't be too much harder for me. If you want to give me an incentive, it should be hearing a song I know and being able to improvise harmony or a bass line. Or... but I could go on. -- Jerry Friedman > > > ... > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > song I know and being able to improvise harmony or a bass line. Or... > but I could go on. It all can be yours, maybe even in less than a couple thousand hours. You do have to find the right teacher or class that suits your learning style and offers a path in that will work _for you_. Many people try a "singing" or "ear-training" or "sight-singing" class and become frustrated when it doesn't start where they are or move in a direction they can move in. As in any subject, some teachers just don't work for some students, and very often is not the fault of either teacher or student but just a mismatch. Folk wisdom (among music teachers at least) is that most people who think they can't sing think that either because outright bad teaching (e.g., being told to mouth the words when having trouble at an early age, instead of being taught to match pitch, because the classroom teacher or -- worse -- the music teacher didn't know how to teach pitch matching) or because of such a "no-fault" mismatch. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >> So you could tell when the note you were singing was the same as the >> one from the guitar? And if not, which one was higher? That must [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >accurately singing tunes that you have heard; we can have you accurately >singing tunes you've never heard -- by reading them from music notation. There are still pitfalls: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcHKm0cm-jI ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Roland wrote on Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:23:55 -0400: >> ... >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> electronic help to know when I was hitting the notes and when >> I wasn't. > Yes. Feedback (and encouragement) is a big part of how this > is typically taught. And it very definitely _can_ be taught. > Heck, after a few thousand hours of work, we can not just have > you accurately singing tunes that you have heard; we can have > you accurately singing tunes you've never heard -- by reading > them from music notation. It would be well to realize that there are people in this world who can enjoy and recognize tunes from classical music but are essentially tone-deaf and have very deficient senses of rhythm. They cannot sing and never will and I know, I'm one of them. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Roland wrote on Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:23:55 -0400: > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > tone-deaf and have very deficient senses of rhythm. They cannot sing and > never will and I know, I'm one of them. There are a few such people, but far, far fewer actually are that way than think they are that way. So, I have to ask--how do you know that you are one of them? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland wrote on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:01:34 -0400: >> Roland wrote on Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:23:55 -0400: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> of rhythm. They cannot sing and never will and I know, I'm >> one of them. > There are a few such people, but far, far fewer actually are > that way than think they are that way. > So, I have to ask--how do you know that you are one of them? I'm not going into describing embarrassing incidents in public but let's say music and dance classes and even marching in step. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Roland wrote on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:01:34 -0400: > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > I'm not going into describing embarrassing incidents in public but let's > say music and dance classes and even marching in step. Just as I suspected. My best guess, given your brief remark, is that you were done in by teaching that didn't match your learning style. I'm not ready yet to write you off as hopeless; just momentarily confused. I'm really glad, though, that you still like music _despite_ the bad experiences with trying to make it yourself. Music needs listeners as well as performers! SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> Roland wrote on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:01:34 -0400: >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >experiences with trying to make it yourself. Music needs listeners as >well as performers! I wonder how many people who might have appreciated music have been turned off by futile attempts to turn them into performers? It nearly happened to me; when I was at school, the standard thing for anyone with any interest was to try to teach them the violin, which I still think is just about the least suitable instrument for beginners; there doesn't seem to be another which makes it quite to easy to make really nasty noises. I still have serious difficulty listening to violin music. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > I wonder how many people who might have appreciated music have been > turned off by futile attempts to turn them into performers? Not a few. > It nearly > happened to me; when I was at school, the standard thing for anyone [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > nasty noises. I still have serious difficulty listening to violin > music. They should have started you on viol. The elementary bowing is much easier to acquire. Pleasant noises from day one. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > They should have started you on viol. A xylophone or a piano is much easier to play. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > > > They should have started you on viol. > > A xylophone or a piano is much easier to play. But much harder to tune. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > > A xylophone or a piano is much easier to play. > But much harder to tune. I primarily learned my pupils to play. Tuning was a secondary thing that there was no time for during class. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I primarily learned my pupils to play. Tuning was a secondary > thing that there was no time for during class. The xylophone and the piano are also much harder for the _teacher_ to tune. BTW, ObUsage: "taught", of course. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > BTW, ObUsage: "taught", of course. Certainly. I was thinking in Danish where we have one verb, "lære", for both phenomenons. SignatureBertel, Denmark >>> Roland wrote on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:01:34 -0400: >>> [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] >nasty noises. I still have serious difficulty listening to violin >music. Before picking up a violin, I was introduced to musical instruments with a trumpet. I can assure you that the nasty noises my lips and it emitted were far worse than anything from my violin, especially since they were far louder. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Before picking up a violin, I was introduced to musical instruments > with a trumpet. I can assure you that the nasty noises my lips and it > emitted were far worse than anything from my violin, especially since > they were far louder. Early on in my teaching days, I had the misfortune to give recorder lesson to a class of 47 boys. On the whole, I'm glad it was neither violin nor trumpet, but I can assure you that the noise was extremely unpleasant. SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >Early on in my teaching days, I had the misfortune to give recorder >lesson to a class of 47 boys. On the whole, I'm glad it was neither >violin nor trumpet, but I can assure you that the noise was extremely >unpleasant. It gets better when they discover that they don't *have* to overblow....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Robert Bannister filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > It gets better when they discover that they don't *have* to overblow....r If they learn to tongue instead of hooting, that helps, too. (Unfortunately some inadequately trained classroom teachers never manage to get that far themselves, let alone teaching it to their charges.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Robert Bannister filted: >> Early on in my teaching days, I had the misfortune to give recorder [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It gets better when they discover that they don't *have* to overblow....r It did get better, but by then I was irrevocably insane (I think that's how I qualified for AUE). SignatureRob Bannister Robert Bannister filted: >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> Early on in my teaching days, I had the misfortune to give recorder [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >It did get better, but by then I was irrevocably insane (I think that's >how I qualified for AUE). ...and here's your accordion. No, wait...that's the official greeting for alt.folklore.urban....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > > Before picking up a violin, I was introduced to musical instruments > > with a trumpet. I can assure you that the nasty noises my lips and it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > violin nor trumpet, but I can assure you that the noise was extremely > unpleasant. It's a great, great pity that the kiddie's hands aren't generally large enough to play alto (BrE treble) instead of soprano (BrE descant) recorders. 47 alto recorders being played toghether out of tune in their first octave blend _much_ better, are quieter, and annoy the neighborhood dogs less. With much experience of both instruments, I think I'd take 47 beginning violinists over 47 soprano recorders any day of the week. But then, as much as I like teaching beginning recorder (thought I haven't done it for quite some time), I'm positively a nut for string pedagogy. YMMV. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Robert Bannister skrev: > Early on in my teaching days, I had the misfortune to give recorder > lesson to a class of 47 boys. Why is it called "recorder"? The Danish name translated is "blockflute". SignatureBertel, Denmark Quoth Bertel Lund Hansen <unospamo@lundhansen.dk>, and I quote: >Robert Bannister skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Why is it called "recorder"? The Danish name translated is >"blockflute". According to Wiki: "The instrument has been known by its modern name at least since the 14th century. Grove's Dictionary reports that the earliest use of the word 'recorder' was in the household of the Earl of Derby (later to become King Henry IV) in 1388: fistula nomine Recordour. The name originates from the use of the word record, one meaning of which is 'to practise a piece of music'." The OED adds: "Perhaps compare Middle French 'recordeur' minstrel". SignatureJames >> Before picking up a violin, I was introduced to musical instruments >> with a trumpet. I can assure you that the nasty noises my lips and it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >violin nor trumpet, but I can assure you that the noise was extremely >unpleasant. I fiddled with a recorder for a while too, for I enjoy the mellow sound they produce. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Chuck Riggs skrev: > I fiddled with a recorder for a while too, for I enjoy the mellow > sound they produce. A recorder can sound fantastic. I have a sister that plays many different flutes and is rather good at it. We also have an amazing expert in Denmark. You may have heard about her: Michala Petri. She can play things one would have thought impossible on a recorder. There are several clips on Youtube. This one demonstrates her expertise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlF7dJLt1PY SignatureBertel, Denmark >Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlF7dJLt1PY Remarkable. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Chuck Riggs skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlF7dJLt1PY She is amazing. Thank you for referring us to the performance. It reminds me that, in the right hands, the recorder is no toy. Now I want one, even though the harmonica, aka "a harp" in both AmE and BrE by those who play it, that I recently bought is gathering dust on my shelf. I see that www.amazon.com and www.djmmusic.com/items.asp?Cc=Recorder&CatMoveby=0&Nbm=&Pbm=&FromNav=, sell what appear to be quality instruments, although my favourite Internet company to buy goods from, www.amazon.co.uk, does not appear to stock them. I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can cost a man £240 these days. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I > want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can cost > a man £240 these days. I think that you may have left off a zero. Musician's Friend will sell you a bass recorder for only $1,999.90, a third off the $3,000 MSRP. <URL:http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ Yamaha-Maple-Great-Bass-Recorder?sku=471319> (Actually, that's a "great bass recorder". Yamaha's bass recorder goes for $1,324.99 there. I suspect that there's a difference, but I'm not sure what it is. Probably range.) Their altos go up to $879.99, tenors to $779.99, sopranos to $619.99. Sopranino recorders are cheap, though. The "high end" there is only $18.99. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's gotten to the point where the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only place you can get work done is Palo Alto, CA 94304 |at home, because no one bugs you, |and the best place to entertain kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |yourself is at work, because the (650)857-7572 |Internet connections are faster. | Scott Adams http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > I'm not sure what it is. Probably range.) Their altos go up to > $879.99, tenors to $779.99, sopranos to $619.99. Sopranino recorders > are cheap, though. The "high end" there is only $18.99. On this page the prices are somewhat higher, ranging from 140 euros to 365 euros: http://www.blockfloetenshop.de/Blockfloeten/Sopranino:::2_9.html SignatureBertel, Denmark >> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I >> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can cost [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > $879.99, tenors to $779.99, sopranos to $619.99. Sopranino recorders > are cheap, though. The "high end" there is only $18.99. Still, I saw a great accordion on the Net for only 17 995 US dollars. SignatureRob Bannister >>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I >>> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can cost [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Still, I saw a great accordion on the Net for only 17 995 US dollars. What I found yesterday, at the price I mentioned, Evan, can be seen at http://www.djmmusic.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=521 SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I > >>> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can cost [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >> $879.99, tenors to $779.99, sopranos to $619.99. Sopranino recorders > >> are cheap, though. The "high end" there is only $18.99. That's probably because they aren't stocking the high-end recorder. Even at those prices, those are factory-made instruments. You can about double them for the products of small workshops, the sort of instruments that professionals and advanced amateurs (as funds permit) like to play. Here's an example of such an instrument by Friedrich von Huene -- and his staff of about two other makers in his shop in Brookline, Massachusetts. Friedrich is one of the people who put recorders based on the work of 17th and 18th century makers back on the map in the second half of the 20th century, and in fact trained many of the makers who are now his competitors in this end of the market. See the bottom of the page to verify how long he's been in the business: he still has a small stock of _legal_ ivory obtained in the early days, and will make you a copy of an 18th century ivory original if you dare to own such a thing and think you are strong enough to lift it. Price, "on application". I think that, even with the dollar buying as little as it does at the moment from European makers, this may just possibly be the most expensive alto recorder on the planet. By the way, don't even THINK of buying a quality wooden recorder from a box-shifter like Musician's Friend. In the retail side of their business (a/k/a/ "Early Music Shop of New England") next-door to the recorder and flute workshop, von Huene also carries Yamaha and other quality "production" instruments, and (I just checked to be sure) their prices are slightly better than Musician's Friend. The great advantage is that they have the capacity to knowledgeably inspect, service, and adjust the instruments they sell. Since a fine wooden recorder should have its voicing re-checked sometime in the first year (after it is well played-in and the wood has adjusted to exposure to moisture from the breath) and periodically thereafter, it's great to have a shop like that already lined up to do it for you. ObFullDisclosure: their part-time bookkeeper and stringed-instrument consultant is a viola-da-gamba playing colleague and close personal friend, and the manager of their retail shop is the spouse of another viol-playing colleague whom I also consider a friend, but I've been a satisfied von Huene customer since before I had ever met either of them of touched a viol with my own hand. (Did I mention that I used to play recorder quite seriously?) > >Still, I saw a great accordion on the Net for only 17 995 US dollars. > > What I found yesterday, at the price I mentioned, Evan, can be seen at > http://www.djmmusic.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=521 A mere $270 at a similar American school-instrument dealer: http://www.wwbw.com/Aulos-A533E-Plastic-Bass-Recorder-468082-i1419640.wwbw This instrument was apparently developed as Aulos's answer to the Yamaha "knick-system" bass, which sells for $300 at von Huene's. (They appear from their web site to only carry the smaller sizes of the Aulos recorders, which I take as a a recommendation of the Yamaha in the larger sizes, though I would have to ask to verify this. I know that the Yamaha plastic bass is a great instrument, and I definitely would prefer it to the earlier, bocal-blown Aulos bass myself.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >ObFullDisclosure: their part-time bookkeeper and stringed-instrument >consultant is a viola-da-gamba playing colleague and close personal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >of touched a viol with my own hand. (Did I mention that I used to play >recorder quite seriously?) Is your "stringed-instrument consultant" another term for the "luthier" I've been referred to in regards to an old violin I need repaired?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Roland Hutchinson skrev: > Massachusetts. Friedrich is one of the people who put recorders based > on the work of 17th and 18th century makers back on the map in the > second half of the 20th century, These European manufacturers (mostly German) are earlier: Moeck app. 1925 Huber 1945 Küng app. 1930 Dolmetsch 1900? Arnold Dolmetsch: 1858 - 1940 SignatureBertel, Denmark > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Küng app. 1930 > Dolmetsch 1900? Arnold Dolmetsch: 1858 - 1940 Yes, but none of them was making recorders based at all closely on baroque originals when von Huene started. They were all producing straight-windway designs based more on Dolmetsch's original production (copying from memory and "improving" an instrument that had been lost) than on historical instruments. You left off the earliest one on the continent, however, which was Schott. They set up production as a result of direct contact with Dolmetsch (with Edgar Hunt as the go-between, if memory serves). You might, however, have cited Martin Skowroneck. Although mostly remembered as a harpsichord maker, he was copying original recorders for Franz Bruggen already in the 60s. Another important continental contemporary of von Huene was Hans Coolsma. Friderich von Huene's original training, in Germany, was as a silversmith, by the way, if I recall correctly, which, together with his flute studies, eventually let him to an apprenticeship with Vern Q. Powell, the famous modern flute maker, and the rest is history. His handiness with metal working led him to devise a system of metal rings for measuring the bore profile of antique instruments that permitted more precise measurements to be taken than had been possible before. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson skrev: > Yes, but none of them was making recorders based at all closely on > baroque originals when von Huene started. Okay, I did not know that. I thought they had made both kinds from the start. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Roland Hutchinson skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Okay, I did not know that. I thought they had made both kinds > from the start. I'm just about old enough to personally remember when the historical copies and the reasonably close mass-produced approximations thereof hit the market. The Moeck Rottenburghs (originally designed by von Huene) _really_ shook up the recorder retail biz. I was in (American) high school at the time. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I >>>> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > What I found yesterday, at the price I mentioned, Evan, can be seen > at http://www.djmmusic.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=521 Oh, I don't doubt it. I was just hinting that your "can cost a man" wasn't exactly getting near the top of the range. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to display clothes aren't hired for Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired |for their resemblance to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger. (650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I >>>>> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Oh, I don't doubt it. I was just hinting that your "can cost a man" >wasn't exactly getting near the top of the range. Does "can cost a man" imply that the writer or speaker has mentioned the maximum amount, or even near it, that someone would have to pay to procure an item? It doesn't to most people, IME, in my part of the world. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I >>>>>> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > procure an item? It doesn't to most people, IME, in my part of the > world. Oh. I'd guess that it would for most around here. It certainly does for me. Especially if the context shows that the amount given is more than the speaker would normally expect for a garden variety whatever. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Sometimes I think the surest sign 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that intelligent life exists Palo Alto, CA 94304 |elsewhere in the universe is that |none of it has tried to contact us. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>>>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the variety I >>>>>>> want, although I'll know more after I research the subject, can [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Oh. I'd guess that it would for most around here. It certainly does >for me. I've always treated on-the-job engineering calculations, as well as math in school or for pleasure, more carefully than I do my personal finances. With the latter, I play fast and loose, as do many gamblers and Irishmen. >Especially if the context shows that the amount given is more >than the speaker would normally expect for a garden variety whatever. If the speaker is me, perhaps you count mind reading among your several talents. From a great distance, no less. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>>>>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the >>>>>>>> variety I want, although I'll know more after I research the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>>>> will sell you a bass recorder for only $1,999.90, a third off >>>>>>> the $3,000 MSRP. [snip] >>>>> What I found yesterday, at the price I mentioned, Evan, can be >>>>> seen at http://www.djmmusic.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=521 [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > If the speaker is me, perhaps you count mind reading among your > several talents. From a great distance, no less. I wouldn't have thought that it would take mind reading to infer, given your "I had no idea" and "can cost a man", that you considered £240 for a version of something that's normally purchased for under ten bucks for schoolchildren to be more than you would have expected. My apologies if I misunderstood you. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>>>>>> I had no idea a quality bass recorder, which may be the >>>>>>>>> variety I want, although I'll know more after I research the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >ten bucks for schoolchildren to be more than you would have expected. >My apologies if I misunderstood you. Since there was merely a misunderstanding, as you said, no apology was required. But thank you, anyway. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Roland wrote on Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:23:14 -0400: >> Roland wrote on Tue, 21 Jul 2009 01:01:34 -0400: >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> public but let's say music and dance classes and even >> marching in step. > Just as I suspected. > My best guess, given your brief remark, is that you were done > in by teaching that didn't match your learning style. > I'm not ready yet to write you off as hopeless; just > momentarily confused. > I'm really glad, though, that you still like music _despite_ > the bad experiences with trying to make it yourself. Music > needs listeners as well as performers! Thanks for the kind words but I tried several times to learn to dance and they were humiliating experiences as were my attempts to keep step marching. Most competent dancers haven't the faintest idea what they doing and just say "Move in time with music"...Huh! My wife also was impressed with my singing and she said "I thought my brother was the world's worst singer, now I know better!" Mind you, her singing would not have won prizes either. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > Roland wrote on Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:23:14 -0400: > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >world's worst singer, now I know better!" Mind you, her singing would >not have won prizes either. If you can call what I do dancing, I learned it over several sessions in high school gym class. By design, I think we all learned a few things about the opposite sex in them, too. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE John Dean skrev: > In my experience, you can learn to sing at any age. I disagree. I agree that if one is not completely tonedeaf, one can always improve one's singing ability. > Then when I was 15 I got a guitar. 15 is not critically late. I have a friend who started at the age of 30. If his musical ability had been trained from childhood, he would have been a very good singer and guitarplayer. As it is he is just an ordinary one. He went from singing out of tune and out of rhytm to being able to follow the rhytm (though not always quite the bars), and most of the time he is in tune with only slight deviations once in a while. > That said, it's also true that some people are naturals and they start > singing the way they start walking - because it seems the next natural step. True. My brother sang melodies in tune at the age of 1 (one year). My father and mother played the piano and sang, so he (and we) heard music while we were in our mother's womb. That facilitates learning music a lot. SignatureBertel, Denmark > True. My brother sang melodies in tune at the age of 1 (one > year). My father and mother played the piano and sang, so he (and > we) heard music while we were in our mother's womb. That facilitates > learning music a lot. Has anybody actually demonstrated that? Say, by doing studies of adopted children who heard music while developing but little after birth. It seems more likely that what facilitates learning music is hearing music after you've been born, which you guys doubtless did as well. My impression is that the amount of hearing you have in the uterus is more akin to being under water and is dominated by the mother's heartbeat, breathing, and intestinal gurgles. Any actual music that got through would be relatively quiet, heavily attenuated, and probably not in sync with the loud steady beat. It's also only after birth that the child would learn to associate the sound of music with the happy faces of its family members and treat it as something worth paying attention to. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Just sit right back 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale, Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red |That started when a little boy kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > > we) heard music while we were in our mother's womb. That facilitates > > learning music a lot. > Has anybody actually demonstrated that? Maybe I have been to easily convinced by what I once read. SignatureBertel, Denmark > > True. My brother sang melodies in tune at the age of 1 (one > > year). My father and mother played the piano and sang, so he (and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the happy faces of its family members and treat it as something worth > paying attention to. But it as been proven scientifically that plants exposed to Bach do grow faster than plants exposed to rock music. The wonders of science never cease, (if you believe in them) Jan In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: >> My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of >> several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >guitar and match my voice to it. By the time I was 18 I could carry a tune, >even without the guitar. I don't think you can always learn to sing in later life, at least not to any useful extent. I think the ability to develop the specific muscles and senses involved decreases with age. The longer you leave it, the harder it gets. And the less your natural aptitude, the more likely you are to leave it until it's too late. Many of us will have tried to learn activities such as speaking a foreign language or skiing in later life, and realised just how difficult it is compared with when we were in our teens. There was a program on BBC Radio Four a few years ago where a music teacher who shared your opinion was tested on a member of the BBC staff (not particularly old) who said she couldn't sing. After several weeks of the high-class one-on-one tuition, the teacher gave up, saying (if I remember correctly) that while it might be possible to teach this woman to sing passably, the effort involved would be tremendous, and quite unrewarding. The pupil agreed. Also... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4655352.stm SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: >>> My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > to teach this woman to sing passably, the effort involved would be > tremendous, and quite unrewarding. The pupil agreed. Which, of course, contradicts the "I don't think you can always learn to sing in later life". I didn't say it was easy and I also said "There may be people with a physical impediment which prevents them singing in tune". Unrewarding? YMMV. There are people who would weep with happiness if they could warble a melody and who don't realise that they could if they worked hard at it. Same is true of playing an instrument. Commonly, whenever I talked with people who had just heard me play guitar, at least one would say "I wish I'd learned to play an instrument." To which the answer is "You still can." For the determinedly recalcitrant, I would recommend the autoharp. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: >> In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: >>>> My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >Which, of course, contradicts the "I don't think you can always learn to >sing in later life". Not so, the result was that teacher failed to demonstrate that it was possible, and (IIRC) modified her view of people who say they can't sing. In any event that anecdote was more of a general reply to your point than an illustration of the previous paragraph. >I didn't say it was easy and I also said "There may be people with a >physical impediment which prevents them singing >in tune". Then we just get into arguing definitions. I think that age-related muscle degeneration (that's possibly not the right term, but all of us get less nimble with age and that's the sort of effect I'm referring to) can amount to a physical impediment, especially with muscles that are seldom given any meaningful exercise. You were suggesting that age wasn't a particularly significant factor, and I think it is. And, on another level, almost anyone can "sing", but not everyone produces results that are pleasing to them or any audience. I'm trying to resist the temptation to mention Bob Dylan at this point, but I've failed. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England Mike Barnes skrev: > And, on another level, almost anyone can "sing", but not everyone > produces results that are pleasing to them or any audience. I'm trying > to resist the temptation to mention Bob Dylan at this point, but I've > failed. There's a difference between a person that can't sing and a person who can but won't. Everyone can produce sounds and vary their pitch, but when we say "can sing" we talk about the ability to sing in tune (as a basic demand). SignatureBertel, Denmark > Mike Barnes skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "can sing" we talk about the ability to sing in tune (as a basic > demand). "I can't sing, but I know how to, which is quite different." -- Noel Coward > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: > >> In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > sing. In any event that anecdote was more of a general reply to your > point than an illustration of the previous paragraph. The tabula rasa theory isn't based on experience. It's philosophically motivated, and serves to shore up politically desirable non-truths. (all people are, or at least could be, equal) > >I didn't say it was easy and I also said "There may be people with a > >physical impediment which prevents them singing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seldom given any meaningful exercise. You were suggesting that age > wasn't a particularly significant factor, and I think it is. Many human activities required very precise fine motor control. This requires many small muscles, and corresponding nerves. Some have this to a much greater degree than others. If it's lacking, training cannot bring it into existence. To take a more trivial example: some people can wiggle their ears, others can't. Only blind optimists will believe that everyone can learn to wiggle the ears. > And, on another level, almost anyone can "sing", but not everyone > produces results that are pleasing to them or any audience. I'm trying > to resist the temptation to mention Bob Dylan at this point, but I've > failed. I've suceeded, Jan > > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: > > >> In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > Only blind optimists will believe > that everyone can learn to wiggle the ears. A good deal here hinges on whether singing requires significantly better (or significantly different) fine motor control from speech. My somewhat educated opinion is that if a person is able to produce speech that is neither a monotone nor full of uncontrolled pitch inflections, he or she is has adequate motor control to producing singing. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > > > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: > > > >> In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > inflections, he or she is has adequate motor control to producing > singing. Of a kind. You inspired me to a test. Can you vary the pitch of your speech arbirarily? I find that I can't. I have high, midlle and low. If I try for an arbitrary pitch it starts to sound like singing. (and becomes slower) But maybe I could learn, Jan > > > > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: > > > > >> In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > > But maybe I could learn, I think it is just possible that "arbitrarily varying the pitch of your speaking" may be the most general possible definition of singing (provided that we include speaking nonsense syllables and phonemes from unknown languages as a form of speaking!). SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Of a kind. > You inspired me to a test. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > But maybe I could learn, I think it's possible. If I slow it down just a bit and continuously slide the pitch around as I speak, I seem to be able to move it through a range of what appears to be just under an octave without it sounding like singing, just "talking funny". If I don't slide, but just go up and down at random in a disjointed manner, it comes out sounding like a movie conception of a robot or computer speaking, but still not singing. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little |practice, writing can be an kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog! (650)857-7572 | Calvin http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Of a kind. >> You inspired me to a test. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sounding like a movie conception of a robot or computer speaking, but > still not singing. You are Rex Harrison AICMFP SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean filted: >> I think it's possible. If I slow it down just a bit and continuously >> slide the pitch around as I speak, I seem to be able to move it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >You are Rex Harrison AICMFP Nah, Rex Harrison was British...Evan's American, so he's obviously either Robert Preston or Johnny Cash.... (Rich Little once described Cash as "the only guy I know who can talk off key")....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>> Of a kind. >>> You inspired me to a test. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > You are Rex Harrison AICMFP Quite the contrary. I can perform this experiment because there's a difference between my talking with varying pitch and my singing. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Society in every state is a blessing, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |but government, even in its best Palo Alto, CA 94304 |state is but a necessary evil; in its |worst state, an intolerable one. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Thomas Paine (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> I think it's possible. If I slow it down just a bit and >>> continuously slide the pitch around as I speak, I seem to be able [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Quite the contrary. I can perform this experiment because there's a >difference between my talking with varying pitch and my singing. I once (mid-1970s) stumbled upon something that could detect the opposite distinction, between speaking with normal inflections and singing the same passage with only those changes in pitch and meter that would occur in speech...something changes in the character of the voice, and this device was nigh unto infallible at spotting it.... The detector to which I refer was Cashew, my cousin's pet chihuahua....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>>> Of a kind. >>>> You inspired me to a test. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Quite the contrary. I can perform this experiment because there's a >difference between my talking with varying pitch and my singing. Y'all ought to hear young working class women from the Estuary side of Essex talking excitedly. Only a day or two after we moved to Hertfordshire we ventured far afield into the "there be dragons" territory east of Harlow, and tried to understand a conversation that a young couple were having loudly in a café. He only gave an occasional grunt to keep her going, but she was actually singing the language. I doubt that we caught a quarter of what she was saying. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> I think it's possible. If I slow it down just a bit and >>>> continuously slide the pitch around as I speak, I seem to be able [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > occasional grunt to keep her going, but she was actually singing the > language. I doubt that we caught a quarter of what she was saying. I couple of years ago I heard a radio interview with a speech therapist who was working with people who had lost their speech through strokes or head injuries. She discovered that many of them could still sing quite well even though they couldn't utter a word of speech. Apparently there are different centres involved in the brain. So the approach she took was to encourage the singing and then gradually get them to substitute different words to say what they wanted. The final stage was to 'detune' the singing a bit until it came to resemble a kind of sing-song speech. "Take me out to the ball game" ---> "I need to go to the bathroom", that kind of thing. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au John Holmes filted: >I couple of years ago I heard a radio interview with a speech therapist >who was working with people who had lost their speech through strokes or [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a kind of sing-song speech. "Take me out to the ball game" ---> "I need >to go to the bathroom", that kind of thing. If this caught on, it could send someone like our Laura up the bell tower with a rifle....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >>>> Of a kind. >>>> You inspired me to a test. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Quite the contrary. I can perform this experiment because there's a > difference between my talking with varying pitch and my singing. That's what Rex used to say. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean filted: >>> You are Rex Harrison AICMFP >> >> Quite the contrary. I can perform this experiment because there's a >> difference between my talking with varying pitch and my singing. > >That's what Rex used to say. The difference is that Evan is approaching the task with both eyes open....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > John Dean filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The difference is that Evan is approaching the task with both eyes > open....r Rex was like Gordon Brown: he kept both of them open but it didn't do him much good. Hence he sand (Rex not Gordo) "I've never seen anything like it in my life" and mistook a whale for an island. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: >> > >> In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >inflections, he or she is has adequate motor control to producing >singing. Would you agree that his singing will probably improve with practice and, perhaps better yet, training? SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >My somewhat educated opinion is that if a person is able to produce > >speech that is neither a monotone nor full of uncontrolled pitch [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Would you agree that his singing will probably improve with practice > and, perhaps better yet, training? In two words: you betcha. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> >My somewhat educated opinion is that if a person is able to produce >> >speech that is neither a monotone nor full of uncontrolled pitch [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >In two words: you betcha. Three or even four words for the price of two makes good economic sense. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > In alt.usage.english, John Dean wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > to any useful extent. I think the ability to develop the specific > muscles and senses involved decreases with age. Speaking of senses and age, I know a man with absolute pitch--except that now in his seventies, he finds he doesn't have it any more. (He still has excellent relative pitch, I believe.) This loss is probably not the result of neglect, as he's been active in amateur music all his life, more so in recent years. > The longer you leave it, > the harder it gets. And the less your natural aptitude, the more likely > you are to leave it until it's too late. Many of us will have tried to > learn activities such as speaking a foreign language or skiing in later > life, and realised just how difficult it is compared with when we were > in our teens. ... Well, you can't compare the difficulty you had learning to ski late in life with the difficulty you had learning it as a teenager, but I agree with your point. -- Jerry Friedman, siempre luchando con español >Speaking of senses and age, I know a man with absolute pitch--except >that now in his seventies, he finds he doesn't have it any more. (He >still has excellent relative pitch, I believe.) This loss is probably >not the result of neglect, as he's been active in amateur music all >his life, more so in recent years. Absolute pitch is a very mixed blessing, but it must be weird to be suddenly deprived of it - particularly as people with absolute pitch have no real need to develop the skill of relative pitch. It is common, I gather, for people with absolute pitch to find as they get older that their standard (or their hearing) drifts, so that everything starts to sound slightly flat (I think it's that way round). I've heard a number of professional musicians complain of this; one, who used to run an opera house, got to the point where he could no longer bear to listen to any operas at all, because it all sounded wrong. Katy > Absolute pitch is a very mixed blessing, but it must be weird to be > suddenly deprived of it - particularly as people with absolute pitch [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > could no longer bear to listen to any operas at all, because it all > sounded wrong. My first college roommate had absolute pitch, and it used to drive him crazy that the turntable I used to record the cassettes I brought with me was slightly (IIRC) fast, something I had never noticed. Luckily, our musical tastes didn't overlap much, so he wasn't familiar with most of the music I had. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to display clothes aren't hired for Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired |for their resemblance to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger. (650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > Absolute pitch is a very mixed blessing, but it must be weird to be > > suddenly deprived of it - particularly as people with absolute pitch [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > our musical tastes didn't overlap much, so he wasn't familiar with > most of the music I had. Even with unfamiliar music, you can still drive 'em batty if the key it ends up playing back in is "in the cracks" -- too high to be in B flat but too low to be in B, for example. The fact of the matter is that musicians with absolute pitch also need to acquire good relative pitch just like the rest of us zhlubs in order to function as musicians (unless they are rather narrowly focused pianists and never have to worry about tuning during their entire career). Playing dead in tune with your mother's piano that you acquired your absolute pitch from does not do any good at all if the rest of the ensemble has (for example) tuned to a pipe organ that is sounding a bit flat overall but in tune with itself on a cold morning. Insisting on YOUR version of your note rather than the version that everyone around you is singing that is in tune with what the basses are singing is a good way to make yourself a p.i.t.a. to any choral director (who will not fail to warn the director of the next group you join). And it gets even worse in a one-on-a-part madrigal group. (I've heard _that_ particular joyous noise one time too many, thank you very much!). SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Evan Kirshenbaum skrev: > me was slightly (IIRC) fast, something I had never noticed. Luckily, > our musical tastes didn't overlap much, so he wasn't familiar with > most of the music I had. If he really has absolute pitch, any music will drive him crazy (or in the case of my friend: irritate him) wether it is familiar or not. Absolute pitch is a funny thing. The concert pitch once was 435 Hz - my father actually had a tuning fork with that frequency. Today it is 440. So absolute pitch is also relative in a way. SignatureBertel, Denmark Jerry Friedman wrote, in part: > Speaking of senses and age, I know a man with absolute pitch--except > that now in his seventies, he finds he doesn't have it any more. (He > still has excellent relative pitch, I believe.) This loss is probably > not the result of neglect, as he's been active in amateur music all > his life, more so in recent years. I had perfect pitch (or absolute pitch) when I was young. Now that I'm old and have not pursued a musical career, I'm pretty sure I don't have it any more. My early childhood was spent listening to may dad's violin playing and my mom's and dad's piano playing. I began piano lessons at age seven, but our refugee venture interrupted them after about four years. SignatureSkitt (AmE) > My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of > several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ability. Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been > taught as a child? I've been told by the director of an amateur choir I belong to that anyone can learn to sing. I certainly never started trying to sing until well into middle age, but I can sing at a very amateur level (sometimes I think, especially if there's a nice loud organ accompaniment!). If I try to sing alone, I have difficulty unless someone's playing the piano or singing the same thing and I can imitate her. Otherwise, I tend to hit the wrong notes or even start out in the wrong key and suddenly realize the next bit is way too high for me. I love listening to choral music, but don't really have the vocabulary to discuss it - I can usually tell when something sounds wrong, but not why it is wrong. I think, like so many skills, some people are born with great physical ability (ie a great voice and natural skill in using it); some may have weaker natural attributes but a good ability to learn to sing, and then there are the rest of us, who with some effort and coaching, can carry a tune. As a child, I never sang in public except in church, as part of the congregation, and then the main feedback I got was a slightly critical 'You sing very loudly in church, don't you?' from relatives. So I didn't get any teaching or practice then, and if I can sing now, anyone can. Cheryl > I've been told by the director of an amateur choir I belong to that > anyone can learn to sing. That seems to be the consensus among professionals who know about traning amateur choirs and/or music pedagogy. With very few exceptions due to serious medical conditions, if you can speak, you can learn to sing on pitch with proper instruction in a supportive environment. It starts by learning to match single sustained notes rather than whole melodies; and matching a single sustained note is already by itself something that can be broken down into steps that can be taught bit by bit. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> I've been told by the director of an amateur choir I belong to that >> anyone can learn to sing. > > That seems to be the consensus among professionals who know about > traning amateur choirs and/or music pedagogy. One of the things that used to really annoy when I sang in choirs was when the soloists finally deigned to turn up at rehearsal. They broke every single rule that we had been taught: slurring their way up or down to notes, wavering on sustained notes and producing incomprehensible diction. Great voices misused. I think that's why I never took to opera. SignatureRob Bannister > >> I've been told by the director of an amateur choir I belong to that > >> anyone can learn to sing. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > to notes, wavering on sustained notes and producing incomprehensible > diction. Great voices misused. I think that's why I never took to opera. I feel your pain. It is just barely possible that your choirs had not always engaged the very greatest soloists available on the oratorio circuit, I surmise. It is, however, the case that _some_ difference between solo and choral voice production is (usually) artistically necessary and expected by composers of works for soloists and choir. There is, however, no excuse for bad diction (ever!) or for "interpretation" that comes about solely because of technical convenience (a polite term for laziness) or from introducing musically meaningless and distracting mannerisms out of mere vocal habit. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >It is, however, the case that _some_ difference between solo and choral >voice production is (usually) artistically necessary and expected by [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >introducing musically meaningless and distracting mannerisms out of mere >vocal habit. What he said. AKty > My mother's passion in life was singing. �She sang in the choirs of > several churches. �She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > ability. �Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been > taught as a child? Absolutely, unless you have a totally tin ear. Also, with the right teacher you would be able to perform Odette/ Odille parts from "Swan Lake". tony cooper filted: >My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to >sing. I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes >has to be coaxed, or if some people - like me - just do not have that >ability. Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been >taught as a child? I realize this is fiction, and that it seldom happens as quickly as shown here, but it's been my impression that all a nascent singer needs is a hint or two that "clicks" (a hint that doubtless differs greatly from one student to the next): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbBITrZa6Ok (The instruction depicted is particularly ironic coming from Robert Preston, who never sang a word if he could "talk" it instead)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? tony cooper skrev: > I am the person that they had in mind when the expression "can't carry > a tune in a bucket" was coined. When watching "American Idol" one > night, I found that I notice when someone gets off-key, In that case you could have learned to carry a tune. You are not tone deaf. Such people have no idea about what is and what is not in tune. I once saw a music teacher listen to a person singing a very wellknown Danish song for children. It sounded horrendous to my musical ear, but the teacher said: You can learn to sing. You went up and down in tune in the right places. > My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to > sing. I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes > has to be coaxed, It has like any other ability. > or if some people - like me - just do not have that ability. You have, but others have not. > Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been > taught as a child? Yes. You might even stille be able to learn it, but I can't say for sure without hearing you sing (and I don't know your age). SignatureBertel, Denmark > tony cooper skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes. You might even stille be able to learn it, but I can't say > for sure without hearing you sing (and I don't know your age). He's older than dirt. SignatureJohn "age 73" Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email > My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to > sing. I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes > has to be coaxed, or if some people - like me - just do not have that > ability. Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been > taught as a child? Impossible to say. You may or may not have the talent. The 'tabula rasa' aka 'blank slate' theory (anybody can learn anything if started young enough) is just nonsense. You probably couldn't have been made into a chess master, or fencing champion, or professional mathematician, or ...., either. We must do with the limited talents we have, Jan > > My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to > > sing. �I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (anybody can learn anything if started young enough) > is just nonsense. I'm much more optimistic than the "tabula rasa" theory: I believe that anybody can learn anything. At any age. But learning is not necessary mastering. You can learn how to drive when you're 70 but you won't become a Formula One driver. > You probably couldn't have been made > into a chess master, or fencing champion, > or professional mathematician, or ...., either. Precisely. Chances are Mr. Cooper wouldn't have become another Maria Callas. But if he made carrying a tune a priority, I'm sure, with proper training, he would be able to sing in less than a month a moderately complicated melody. > We must do with the limited talents we have, Talent is such an elusive thing, very hard to pinpoint. Did you know that Charles Darwin's science teachers deemed him as totally inapt for scientific research? Perhaps they were right as far as certain areas of scientific research were concerned. >I'm much more optimistic than the "tabula rasa" theory: I believe that >anybody can learn anything. At any age. Provided the person has the necessary physical ability. A blind person cannot learn to read a printed book. A paraplegic cannot learn to dance in a normal standing position. In the absence of such absolute bars to learning particular skills it does seem that some skills are most easily learned early in life. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Arcadian Rises skrev: > I'm much more optimistic than the "tabula rasa" theory: I believe that > anybody can learn anything. At any age. Have you read about the wild children that have been found in forests? Their mastery of language and their cognition did not match those of people with a normal life. > But learning is not necessary mastering. You can learn how to drive > when you're 70 but you won't become a Formula One driver. So one can't learn anything after all? An old person can't learn to drive a Formula 1-car if he has no previous driving skill (and probably not even then). > Talent is such an elusive thing, very hard to pinpoint. but obvious when present. SignatureBertel, Denmark > Arcadian Rises skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > forests? Their mastery of language and their cognition did not > match those of people with a normal life. Hasn't it been questioned as to whether or not they were really 'wild children' and/or really 'normal'? That is, were they actually raised by wolves (as reported) or merely spent varying periods of time outside their native villages in early childhood? Their speech deficits might well have been due to their own psychological or neurological problems than whether they really spent a crucial period of development away from humans. There are also some better-documented cases of young children who have been subjected to severe abuse who have also problems acquiring speech, but again, no one really knows if the cause is their isolation or other aspects of their abuse. It does appear that very young children are better at learning languages than adults, but I don't think the lives of wild or feral children are evidence for this unless previous disability can be excluded as a cause. And adults learn new languages all the time, although they may have more difficulty than a child would. Cheryl Cheryl P. skrev: > Hasn't it been questioned as to whether or not they were really 'wild > children' and/or really 'normal'? That is, were they actually raised by > wolves (as reported) or merely spent varying periods of time outside > their native villages in early childhood? True, the samples are few and the real conditions are not known with certainty. But I think it is an accepted fact that kids have an ideal period for establishing the basic language mastering, and that learning becomes very difficult if the foundation is not laid then. > And adults learn new languages all the time, although they may have more > difficulty than a child would. Sure. I am learning Spanish at the age of 60. But my language knowledge was quite well established before that. That is something else. SignatureBertel, Denmark > > > My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to > > > sing. ?I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm much more optimistic than the "tabula rasa" theory: I believe that > anybody can learn anything. At any age. Try teaching a creationist to think. > But learning is not necessary mastering. You can learn how to drive > when you're 70 but you won't become a Formula One driver. At least 99% of the humans can't become F1 drivers, or grand masters, or performing opera singers, or ... no matter how young they start. The Polgar sisters are the exception. > > You probably couldn't have been made > > into a chess master, or fencing champion, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > proper training, he would be able to sing in less than a month a > moderately complicated melody. You may well be right, but you cannot possibly be sure of such a thing. Mr Cooper might just as well turn out to be one of the hopeless cases. The necessary fine motor controll might just be lacking. > > We must do with the limited talents we have, > > Talent is such an elusive thing, very hard to pinpoint. Agreed. > Did you know that Charles Darwin's science teachers deemed him as > totally inapt for scientific research? Perhaps they were right as far > as certain areas of scientific research were concerned. Another legend. Darwin never studied science, he studied theology, without any great enthousiasm. He did get a degree in it though, Jan > My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of > several churches. . . . > My mother made no effort to teach me to sing or to encourage me to > sing. I've often wondered if it's a natural ability that sometimes > has to be coaxed, or if some people - like me - just do not have that > ability. This is sad, and surprising too for the child of a keen musician. My experience has been that up to 90 per cent of children can be taught to sing well (and to enjoy singing well) but that only 20 or 30 per cent are likely to develop this interest and ability without encouragement. This is a strong reason why choral singing should be compulsory in primary schools (provided genuinely able teachers can be found.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) Don Phillipson skrev: > This is sad, and surprising too for the child of a keen musician. > My experience has been that up to 90 per cent of children can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > singing should be compulsory in primary schools (provided > genuinely able teachers can be found.) My limited experience says just about the same, and I agree with your conclusion. SignatureBertel, Denmark >My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of >several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >ability. Would I have been able to carry a tune today if I had been >taught as a child? Probably but I think that some people are "colour-blind" to some notes. I had a friend who loved singing and had great enthusiasm but some of his notes would be marked with an X on a score. I asked him once to sing a scale and he repeated two notes: he just couldn't hear the difference. All of my family have pretty good ears. My mother was always singing a snatch of a tune. She would launch into a song based on whatever you said to her, grabbing a phrase and matching it to some obscure part of her repertoire. Perhaps being immersed in tuneful noise caught on. My father was a music critic at one stage for the local rag. So there might have been some genetic inheritance as well. I have been told I have a very good ear and I think it was tuned by playing trumpet in an orchestra. I certainly hear when others miss a note or change key. It irritates me that so many singers seem to be taught to arrive at a note by stealth through sliding up to it. I once took my cassette deck in for repairs as the notes were wrong. The guy didn't agree until his oscilloscope proved me right. He was amazed that I could hear such a minute (to him) error. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >It irritates me that so many singers seem to be >taught to arrive at a note by stealth through sliding up to it. One of the female singers on "The First Night of the Proms" failed to arrive at all on a few occasions. >>My mother's passion in life was singing. She sang in the choirs of >>several churches. She'd attend an earl mass at the Catholic church, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >once to sing a scale and he repeated two notes: he just couldn't hear >the difference. This, it seems to me, is an example, since we've been looking for one in this thread, of a person who clearly can not sing. Perhaps with training he could learn, but if his difficulty is at all similar to colour blindness, as you say, then probably not. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>Probably but I think that some people are "colour-blind" to some >>notes. I had a friend who loved singing and had great enthusiasm but [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > with training he could learn, but if his difficulty is at all > similar to colour blindness, as you say, then probably not. I'm not sure that's a case of "cannot sing". The X'ing of notes on the score implies that it's more like a pianist whose instrument has one or two dead (or known to be badly out-of-tune) keys. You can learn to play around them, either skipping them or playing keys that harmonize. (There's a story told about Liberace playing on, I believe, the _Tonight Show_ where one of the keys piano popped off and he kept on playing, improvising around it.) Or maybe it's like playing a (diatonic) harmonica, where without learning how to "overbend" and "overdraw", there are notes in the range that you simply cannot play. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Whatever it is that the government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |does, sensible Americans would prefer Palo Alto, CA 94304 |that the government do it to somebody |else. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>Probably but I think that some people are "colour-blind" to some >>>notes. I had a friend who loved singing and had great enthusiasm but [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >"overbend" and "overdraw", there are notes in the range that you >simply cannot play. Being tone deaf, as this person apparently was, would make it nearly impossible to sing well. His case is not comparable to the bad piano you mention, for while he can sing all the notes -- presumably he has no physical limitation that would hinder him from doing so, making an analogy with the bad piano -- having a bad ear, he doesn't know which ones to sing. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>>>Probably but I think that some people are "colour-blind" to some >>>>notes. I had a friend who loved singing and had great enthusiasm [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > making an analogy with the bad piano -- having a bad ear, he doesn't > know which ones to sing. That's not what I got from the "some of his notes would be marked with an X on a score". It seemed as though he knew in advance which notes were going to give him problems and needed to be avoided. Essentially "avoid F#; it always comes out as F". Thinking about it, though, I suspect that what's more likely is that he was sufficiently tone deaf that he couldn't accurately move an interval of less than two semitones, and so whenever the score called on him to do so, he would have to skip the second. When singing a scale, he'd be fine for the "do re mi", but "fa" would come out as "mi", and then he could proceed to "sol la ti", before having trouble with "do". But with an arpegio, "do mi sol do", he'd hit the high "do" just fine. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Giving money and power to government 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |is like giving whiskey and car keys Palo Alto, CA 94304 |to teenage boys. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>>>Probably but I think that some people are "colour-blind" to some >>>>>notes. I had a friend who loved singing and had great enthusiasm [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >with "do". But with an arpegio, "do mi sol do", he'd hit the high >"do" just fine. Without knowing more about him, we're both guessing to a degree. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE ... >>> Being tone deaf, as this person apparently was, would make it nearly >>> impossible to sing well. His case is not comparable to the bad piano [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Without knowing more about him, we're both guessing to a degree. Evan is pretty close. He went something like: doh re mi mi so la la doh. Completely missed the notes and sang another instead. He was okay singing with others who could cover his flaws. He brought a lot of attitude to the performance. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > ... > >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Evan is pretty close. He went something like: doh re mi mi so la la > doh. Completely missed the notes and sang another instead. So, exactly the notes pentatonic scale that Kodaly teachers (and others) use with kids who can't deal with half-steps yet! > He was okay singing with others who could cover his flaws. He brought > a lot of attitude to the performance. Excellent. As I recall, none other than Charles Ives had some choice words or praise for another singer with even more severe pitch problems who more than made up for it with attitude, which was pretty much all Charlie liked to care about. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > I think that some people are "colour-blind" to some > notes. I had a friend who loved singing and had great enthusiasm but > some of his notes would be marked with an X on a score. I asked him > once to sing a scale and he repeated two notes: he just couldn't hear > the difference. Could be. One of the strategies of the "Kodaly" approach to teaching young children is to start with the sol-mi minor third that is ubiquitous throughout the world in children's songs and chants ("nyah-nyah" or "cu-koo"). Then the range of notes is expanded to pentatonic melodies for later on, leaving half-steps for later on. It seems that very young children don't do well with small intervals as a rule, at least to start with, and the ability to discriminate them comes with exposure and maturation--usually! > I have been told I have a very good ear and I think it was tuned by > playing trumpet in an orchestra. I certainly hear when others miss a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The guy didn't agree until his oscilloscope proved me right. He was > amazed that I could hear such a minute (to him) error. Techies are commonly amazed by how good the ear is at tasks that require VERY high-end (and, at least in the old days when things didn't adjust themselves, very well aligned and calibrated) electronic test equipment to do by measurement. And vice versa: Musicians are amazed by how crude some test equipment is compared to the ear. I remember working with rack-mounted tone generators in a university class called "Psychoacoustics Projects Lab" -- it was my required semester of laboratory science. My lab partner (also a musician) and I asked the T.A. how accurate they were, and we were shocked by the answer. (I forget what it was, but something like plus or minus a percent or two of the indicated frequency. In other words, two tone generators set to the same pitch might disagree with each other by most of a semitone! More than an order of magnitude less accurate than a tuning fork.) SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) |
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