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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009"ancient Aryan" word for cloud and mountain?
In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, Baring-Gould writes: The ancient Aryan had the same name for cloud and mountain. To him the piles of vapour on the horizon were so like Alpine ranges, that he had but one word whereby to designate both. These great mountains of heaven were opened by the lightning. Does anyone have an idea of what word he had in mind, and what he probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906 edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.)  SignatureTaken on the whole however this is a fine disc and a good example of the current pop scene attempting to break out of its vulgarisms and sometimes downright obscene derivative hogwash. (Julian Stone-Mason B.A., 1972) > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906 > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.) It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily available. Indeed he may well have gotten it from Max Mueller -- you might look through the many volumes of his collected writings on Oriental topics. > > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > since Max Mueller's Sacred Books of the Orient (50 vols.) were readily > available. ... The NSOED says that starting in the mid 19th Century, "Aryan" could mean "A member of any of the peoples who spoke the parent language of the Indo-European (or esp. Indo-Iranian) family, or one of their descendants. _arch._" Does the quoted passage make it clear that Baring-Gould meant Indo-Iranian, not Indo-European? -- Jerry Friedman > > > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > descendants. _arch._" Does the quoted passage make it clear that > Baring-Gould meant Indo-Iranian, not Indo-European? Compare the articles on "Aryan" in the 9th and 11th Britannicas. Since this is the _grandfather_ of the better-known WSB-G, it's more likely just a vague reference, not anything specific. But Max Mueller would still be the first place to look for such a factoid. > > > > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Compare the articles on "Aryan" in the 9th and 11th Britannicas. I'll get back to you on that. > Since > this is the _grandfather_ of the better-known WSB-G, it's more likely > just a vague reference, not anything specific. Okay, thanks. -- Jerry Friedman >> > It had to be someone who knew tall mountains, so Sanskrit seems more >> > likely than Avestan. He had access to translations of both literatures [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > this is the _grandfather_ of the better-known WSB-G, it's more likely > just a vague reference, not anything specific. Good point. (I posted the earlier clarification about the author before I saw this. Actually, I thought Sabine was better-known whan WS; otherwise I would've made it clear from the start which one I meant.) > But Max Mueller would still be the first place to look for such a > factoid. Needle in a 50-volume haystack? SignatureI spend almost as much time figuring out what's wrong with my computer as I do actually using it. Networked software, especially, requires frequent updates and maintenance, all of which gets in the way of doing routine work. (Stoll 1995) Adam Funk: > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > Baring-Gould writes: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > probably meant by "ancient Aryan"? (I came across this in the 1906 > edition, but he could have written it in the 1860s.) It must be the 'hammer' word, < *h2ek^-men- or some such. The semantics here is a little stretchy. AIUI it's not "cloud" and "mountain" but rather a likening of the sky with a rock. Or perhaps a vault of rocks, since it seems to be derived from *h2ek- "sharp" and as such might have denoted quarried stones. Its cognate in Old Indic is <á$man> "rock", in Avestic <asman> "rock, sky>, keeping the dual meaning, so I'd venture to guess that by Aryans he means Proto-Indo-Iranians. I can't see any relevance for English usage. Follow-up to sci.lang only. SignatureTrond Engen > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sometimes downright obscene derivative hogwash. > (Julian Stone-Mason B.A., 1972) "adri" - synonym of both mountain (usual) and cloud (rare) in a pejorative sense - "ignorance". The sentence is ambiguous since Sanskrit has dozens of synonyms for both "cloud" and "Mountain". On Jul 18, 10:54 pm, analys...@hotmail.com wrote: > > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > pejorative sense - "ignorance". The sentence is ambiguous since > Sanskrit has dozens of synonyms for both "cloud" and "Mountain". What about nīlābha? It complies with my proposed ur-basis - *hnə- bəl- ;-) Of course, there is another Sanskrit word for both cloud and mountain, it is balāhaka... similar to Serbo-Slavic oblak (cloud) and planina/ plany (mountain); probably from bala (bulkiness; Serb. obilje 'plenitude', obilan 'flush, abundant', oblik 'form, shape'); cf. Eng. heavy and heaven; Brainy and similar self-styled scientists will tell you that there is nothing in there but chance resemblance...:-) DV > In the chapter "Schamir" of _Curious Myths of the Middle Ages_, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > sometimes downright obscene derivative hogwash. > (Julian Stone-Mason B.A., 1972) I've been talking about it for years... not only cloud and mountain but earth, sky and whatever may resemble to pile, clod or globe/ball (it means hundreds and hundreds of other words). http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/msg/2b148db0121c908b?hl=en& Gnibelung: http://vukotic.50webs.com/pdf/ringe.pdf DV |
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