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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009English for "concitoyen"
Hello: Any English word for the French concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un autre. i.e. coming from the same city or state? -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > > Any English word for the French > concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un > autre. > i.e. coming from the same city or state? "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a single word for somebody from the same city.  SignatureDavid >> Any English word for the French >> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État >> qu'un autre. >> i.e. coming from the same city or state? > "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a > single word for somebody from the same city. Fellow-citizen. >>> Any English word for the French >>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Fellow-citizen. That doesn't work for me unless you add "of Manchester" or wherever and even then it would sound odd. As it is, I would take it to mean a fellow citizen of the same state, rather than city. The English don't really recognise the concept of a town having citizens. Inhabitants, yes, but not citizens. If we need to refer to the people who live in a given city, we often fall back on the German word "Burghers", but there's I can't think of a form of that which indicates "co-Burgher". SignatureDavid > >>> Any English word for the French > >>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > word "Burghers", but there's I can't think of a form of that which > indicates "co-Burgher". Thank you all. Marius Hancu >>>> Any English word for the French >>>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > word "Burghers", but there's I can't think of a form of that which > indicates "co-Burgher". In the US, each city (and state) has its own epithet: "New Yorker," "Chicagoan," "Californian," etc.,. There isn't a single word that covers the concept of people from the same city or state, but "fellow Oregonian" would be an example of one specifier. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > The English don't really recognise the concept of a town having > citizens. Inhabitants, yes, but not citizens. Is that something recent? There are plenty of references in old literature to "citizens of London," "citizens of Lincoln," "citizens of Bristol," etc. Since the word originally meant essentially city-dweller, I wouldn't expect it to apply to towns and villages. >If we need to refer to > the people who live in a given city, we often fall back on the German > word "Burghers", but there's I can't think of a form of that which > indicates "co-Burgher". Germanic kinship but not really a German borrowing. MW says: Middle English burgh, from Old English burg fortified town It never does feel quite normal, though. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> The English don't really recognise the concept of a town having >> citizens. Inhabitants, yes, but not citizens. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Bristol," etc. Since the word originally meant essentially city-dweller, > I wouldn't expect it to apply to towns and villages. It seems so - it doesn't feel right and it does appear to have been more common around 1900, e.g. "The Victoria Baths complex was designed by Manchester's first City Architect Henry Price, and opened in 1906. ... At the opening ceremony the Lord Mayor described Victoria Baths as 'a water palace of which every citizen of Manchester is proud'." I would not, at the appropriate times, have referred to myself as a "citizen of Manchester" or "citizen of Warrington". Having said that, I can see a report from the a Lords Select Committee in 2007 in which the question is put: "As a citizen of Manchester, are you aware that these arenas draw large crowds?". I don't think I would word it that way. SignatureDavid > > The English don't really recognise the concept of a town having > > citizens. Inhabitants, yes, but not citizens. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > It never does feel quite normal, though. Or Dutch. Many a -burg in the Netherlands. And the English pronunciation is closer to the Dutch than to the German. Jan > > Fellow-citizen. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > word "Burghers", but there's I can't think of a form of that which > indicates "co-Burgher". Burgher and citizen are not the same thing. A burgher belongs or belonged to a particular category among the citizens of a town (often the upper crust who monopolized all official positions). As you say, the concept of citizenship among the Angloamericans is a very peculiar one: one should not expect this difference to be well- known to you guys. >> > Fellow-citizen. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >belonged to a particular category among the citizens of a town (often >the upper crust who monopolized all official positions). Burgher is German. There is a perfectly good English word for this - burgess. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" > On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:16:18 -0700 (PDT), mb <azyth...@gmail.com> > >Burgher and citizen are not the same thing. A burgher belongs or > >belonged to a particular category among the citizens of a town (often > >the upper crust who monopolized all official positions). > > Burgher is German. There is a perfectly good English word for this - > burgess. Just so. Applies to its equivalents in other continental languages, too. Would I be right in my assumption that "burgher", with its English graphy, seems to be more frequently used than "burgess"? Google isn't helping, as "burgess" brings a huge lot of surname quotes. >>> Fellow-citizen. >> That doesn't work for me unless you add "of Manchester" or wherever and [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > belonged to a particular category among the citizens of a town (often > the upper crust who monopolized all official positions). Perhaps, but that's not how we use it in modern BrE. If I say "This will be welcomed by the burghers of Warrington", the term is fully inclusive of all the inhabitants. SignatureDavid the Omrud wrote... >>>> Fellow-citizen. >>> That doesn't work for me unless you add "of Manchester" or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Perhaps, but that's not how we use it in modern BrE. OED ranked it 'somewhat /arch/' in 1989. Has it acquired a new lease of life? > If I say "This will be welcomed by the burghers of Warrington", > the term is fully inclusive of all the inhabitants. What's wrong with 'townsfolk'? I note that OED gives '*townswoman*, a woman inhabitant of a town; with possessive, a woman of the same town,' with no masculine equivalent. The unwieldy 'town's-fellow' exists, though - why don't we just say townsfellow = concitoyen? SignatureNoel ...resisting all temptation to write about silly townsfolk or villagers here: http://tinyurl.com/lsy5u4 >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a >single word for somebody from the same city. We also have the phrase "fellow-citizen". The context would need to make clear what the person was a citizen of. When it comes to cities and towns we would usually specify the place: fellow New Yorker fellow Mancunian (of Manchester) fellow Liverpudlian (of Liverpool) fellow Dubliner (of Dublin) An example: http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/102238/sotomayor-hearings-resonate-in-eas t-harlem/Default.aspx Supporters of U.S. Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor gathered in East Harlem Monday to watch the New York native introduce herself to the nation on day one of her confirmation hearings. NY1's Lily Jamali filed the following report. Not everyone might consider a Supreme Court confirmation hearing as "Must-See TV" but in East Harlem, people did. They watched from Camaradas bar as one of their own, fellow Latina and fellow New Yorker Sonia Sotomayor, faced day one in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > > Any English word for the French > > concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un > > autre. > > i.e. coming from the same city or state? > "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a > single word for somebody from the same city. FELLOW- seems the nearest approximation in everyday English, but this also requires a second word, e.g. fellow-Londoner, fellow-American, fellow-Yorkshireman. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of >> a single word for somebody from the same city. > > FELLOW- seems the nearest approximation in everyday English, but > this also requires a second word, e.g. fellow-Londoner, > fellow-American, fellow-Yorkshireman. There are people, tho, who have broadened "compatriot" to mean fellow-*anything* -- colleague, fellow member of the soccer team, fellow-Londoner, fellow-Democrat, etc. There seems to be a demand for such a word, and the abuse of "compatriot" is perhaps our punishment for having given up "mate". Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: "I think; therefore I am" shows how easily one mistake :|| ||: follows on another. :|| > >> "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of > >> a single word for somebody from the same city. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > such a word, and the abuse of "compatriot" is perhaps our punishment > for having given up "mate". Dutch has the quie usable -genoot, which works at all levels, down to disgenoot. (someone you share a meal with) English should invent something like it, Jan > > >> "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of > > >> a single word for somebody from the same city. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > English should invent something like it, Why? English would much more likely just follow its traditional approach and steal the Dutch word. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > > > >> "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of > > > >> a single word for somebody from the same city. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Why? English would much more likely just follow its traditional > approach and steal the Dutch word. Stangely enough English does already have bedfellow, which matched 'bedgenoot'. Jan > > > > >> "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of > > > > >> a single word for somebody from the same city. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Stangely enough English does already have bedfellow, > which matched 'bedgenoot'. English is very adaptable when it steals things. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a > single word for somebody from the same city. Landsleit is the Yiddish word for that. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Landsleit is the Yiddish word for that. Useful. I shall try to remember it. SignatureDavid > >>> Hello: > >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Useful. I shall try to remember it. Having just returned[1] from the Italian-American "festa" (procession with statuary, brass bands, fireworks, food) of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel organized by the Roman Catholic parish church (of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, needless to say) in my neighborhood, I am reminded that in some neighborhoods, "paisan' " is the local word for "landsman". [1] almost typed "retuned". Wrong thread. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) On Jul 19, 10:02 pm, Roland Hutchinson <my.spamt...@verizon.net> wrote: > > >>> Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Carmel, needless to say) in my neighborhood, I am reminded that in some > neighborhoods, "paisan' " is the local word for "landsman". In some other neighborhoods, the term would be "homie" or "homeboy", but I can't think of a generic non-dialect term in AmE. In my own city, we use "townie" to distinguish ourselves from the student-citizens [temporarily] attending the University. Those students, for some reason or other, are not ever referred to as "gownies". Can't quite put my finger on the reason... Jim Deutch (JimboCat) -- "Ideologies tend to turn people into idiots, particularly on college campuses where the ideologues have a captive audience in students who're afraid to disagree lest their grades suffer." --Mike Perry > >> Any English word for the French > >> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Landsleit is the Yiddish word for that. For which, please? "Land" looks like country (as in Dutch "landgenoot," literally land-mate) but the last mentioned was city. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>>> Any English word for the French >>>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > For which, please? "Land" looks like country (as in Dutch "landgenoot," > literally land-mate) but the last mentioned was city. I looked it up earlier (I don't remember where). It seems to give an indication that one's family came from the same village (probably in Eastern Europe) as another person's family. I suppose it may have gained an extended meaning. SignatureDavid >>>> Any English word for the French >>>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > For which, please? "Land" looks like country (as in Dutch "landgenoot," > literally land-mate) but the last mentioned was city. It looks as if a singular has been backformed from "Leute" (German for people) - "ei" for "eu" is a marker between Yiddish and German. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Any English word for the French >>>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > For which, please? "Land" looks like country (as in Dutch "landgenoot," > literally land-mate) but the last mentioned was city. I've always understood it to mean people from the same city or even smaller place. I think the singular is actually landsman but there may be spelling variations. My grandparents and aunt and uncle spoke Yiddish a lot of the time but I never saw it in written form and I suspect that some of the words were idiosyncratic inventions peculiar to our family. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> Any English word for the French >>>>> concitoyen: Celui, celle qui est de la même ville, du même État qu'un [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >a lot of the time but I never saw it in written form and I suspect that >some of the words were idiosyncratic inventions peculiar to our family. "Landsman" is the Yiddish word for compatriot. The German word "Landsmann" has a similar meaning. The two words appear to have a common root. "Landsman," although indicating from the same country or region, is frequently used to indicate coming from the same place. That place can be a country, province, village and even neighborhood. BTW, "landsman" and "Landsmann" are pronounced alike. Rey can probably give a better explanation than I. > "Landsman" is the Yiddish word for compatriot. The German word > "Landsmann" has a similar meaning. The two words appear to have a common > root. "Landsman," although indicating from the same country or region, > is frequently used to indicate coming from the same place. That place > can be a country, province, village and even neighborhood. In Yiddish, or Yiddish-borrowed-into-English, also, by extension, a co-religionist, an "M. O. T." SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > In Yiddish, or Yiddish-borrowed-into-English, also, by extension, a > co-religionist, an "M. O. T." Yiddish? I know it as "Member of the Tribe". Is that a loan-translation? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is something fascinating 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |about science. One gets such Palo Alto, CA 94304 |wholesale returns of conjecture out |of such a trifling investment of kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |fact. (650)857-7572 | Mark Twain http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > In Yiddish, or Yiddish-borrowed-into-English, also, by extension, a > > co-religionist, an "M. O. T." > > Yiddish? I know it as "Member of the Tribe". Is that a > loan-translation? I meant that "co-religionist" or "M. O. T." were _English_ synonyms of the Yiddish word (or Yiddish loanword in English) "landsman". That "M.O.T." is of course not to be confused with the metonymic sticker that our rightpondian friends put in their windshields (windscreens), a lest, among other consequences, one be misled into vastly overestimating the number of landsmen running, or rather driving, around Britain. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) ... > Rey can probably give a better explanation than I. No doubt. But make it part of Standard English, I don't think he can. >> Hello: >> Any English word for the French [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > "compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a > single word for somebody from the same city. In the US, there's "homeboy"/"homegirl" (or "homey"), although that's mainly slang these days and associated with young urban black speakers and will often have a sense of "blacks from my hometown" or "people from largel-black neighborhoods" contrasted with others, even from the same city. I wouldn't use it as a translation unless you understood and wanted to evoke the connotations. The OED notes that Since the early 1980s the term has become particularly strongly associated in the U.S. and the U.K. with the hip-hop subculture. but actually cites it back to 1946, which is a fair bit older than I would have thought. They also note that it's South African as well as American, as a calque from Xhosa "umkhaya", cited to 1953. They don't seem to imply that the American use came from the South African, though. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The look on our faces isn't confusion. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It's disbelief. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | | Jon Stewart kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"compatriot" for a person from the same country. I can't think of a >single word for somebody from the same city. Homeboy? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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