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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Don't Shoot the Messenger!
What other expressions are common in English which have their origins in logical fallacies? Farhad > What other expressions are common in English which have their origins > in logical fallacies? Fruit of the poisonous tree? BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the messenger who brought bad news was actually killed. > BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the > messenger who brought bad news was actually killed. Can I ask, did you get this impression from one of the various movies, comics, or novels that have recently floated around, telling the story of the 300 Spartans fighting at Themopylae? I see reviews that specifically say that in "300," the king of Sparta kills a Persian messenger (for various reasons -- not so much bad news as an unpleasant choice) but so far I can't find anything that bases this on history, like Herodotus. It seems to be the usual Hollywood invention, borrowing, and filler. In this case it would be reasoning backwards -- like, "This saying about messengers must be old, let's work it into the story." Anyway, a few years ago I and some others looked for any foundation in history for the "Don't shoot the messenger" saying. It was tough sledding, but I'm sure we found that it was *not* a truly old saying... Yes, it turns up in the Google Group archives, from 2000. Please look here at what I did and did not find: http://tinyurl.com/lxrw63 There are more archives on line now than in 2000, more could be learned.  SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a > > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > comics, or novels that have recently floated around, telling the story > of the 300 Spartans fighting at Themopylae? No, those recent things only confirmed what I knew for a long time from...folklore? Or better call it erudition, or lack thereof. I always knew and (up until now) I've never doubted that it was a historic fact: the ancient Greeks killed the messengers who brought bad news. To paraphrase a Woody Allen caracter, all the Universe knew about that uncontested fact. I see reviews that > specifically say that in "300," the king of Sparta kills a Persian > messenger (for various reasons -- not so much bad news as an unpleasant [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > There are more archives on line now than in 2000, more could be learned. Don't worry, I won't kill you for delivering the bad news, but let it be known that I resent it when people shake up my belief system grounded on urban legends, "erudition" acquired from movies and pseudo science. > > > BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a > > > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bad news. To paraphrase a Woody Allen caracter, all the Universe knew > about that uncontested fact. OK, thanks for answering. I was curious if it was a recent development. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux a écrit : >> BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a >> logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > choice) but so far I can't find anything that bases this on history, > like Herodotus. [...] Herodotus does tell about slain messengers or heralds. But the point surely is that the life of an ambassador was considered sacred. Going against the custom meant you incurred the wrath of the gods. I knew the story in French as that about "les hérauts de Sparte", so I googled for heralds, Sparta, Herodotus, and here's the story, and a very good story it is, with several episodes: http://www.greektexts.com/library/Herodotus/Polymnia/eng/221.html The way the moral of the anecdote was explained to me, the sanctity of messengers or ambassadors was a given, not particularly worthy of being commented upon. What was remarkable and laudable was the heroism of the two Spartan ambassadors who agreed to go to Xerxes to atone for their ancestors' crime, the highly civilized manner in which they were treated in Persia, the salient point being their love of freedom and of their country. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini > Donna Richoux a écrit : > > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > in Persia, the salient point being their love of freedom and of their > country. Thanks for the reference. I've located it in the copy of Herodotus that I was using. Polymnia is Book 7, and the chief paragraph is 7.133 (with related info before and after). I'm satisfied that the Hollywood/comic-book incident is loosely inspired by that paragraph. Wrong Spartan king, wrong Persian king, but at least a messenger did get shoved down a well. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > What other expressions are common in English which have their origins > > in logical fallacies? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the > messenger who brought bad news was actually killed. That seems a highly illogical thing to do. So it is perhaps reasonable to think that a logical fallacy was involved in there _somewhere_, even if it's hard to nail down exactly where and what fallacy. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >> > What other expressions are common in English which have their origins >> > in logical fallacies? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >to think that a logical fallacy was involved in there _somewhere_, even >if it's hard to nail down exactly where and what fallacy. Illogical though it might be, sometimes, when things aren't going your way, you just want to *hit* somebody...and there's that messenger, just *standing* there, probably still breathing hard.... ....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >just want to *hit* somebody...and there's that messenger, just *standing* there, >probably still breathing hard.... "The medium is the message." And there is the messenger, the medium that has conveyed the message... (OK. That's not actually what Marshall McLuhan meant by his aphorism.) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Roland Hutchinson filted: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > just want to *hit* somebody...and there's that messenger, just *standing* there, > probably still breathing hard.... ...especially if the messenger is gloating with joy when delivering you the bad news... > BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the > messenger who brought bad news was actually killed. Perhaps I'd better put my question in another way. What other expressions are common in English that have a connection with logical fallacies? Farhad > > BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a > > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expressions are common in English that have a connection with logical > fallacies? You still haven't explained what's logically fallacious about shooting (or not shooting) the messenger. Perhaps American ain't expressions are what you are looking for? You ain't seen nothing yet, Jan >> > BTW, I didn't know that "Don't Shoot the Messenger" originated in a >> > logical fallacy. I thought it came from the Spartan War when the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >You still haven't explained what's logically fallacious >about shooting (or not shooting) the messenger. Reacting to the report of the situation as if it were the situation itself (map-territory mixup), and compounding that by implicating the reporter? >Perhaps American ain't expressions are what you are looking for? > >You ain't seen nothing yet, SignatureJohn > What other expressions are common in English which have their origins > in logical fallacies? If you mean your title line, this particular phrase has zilch to do with any logical fallacy. >On Jul 19, 2:01 pm, Farhad <fvafa...@gmail.com> wrote: >> What other expressions are common in English which have their origins >> in logical fallacies? > >If you mean your title line, this particular phrase has zilch to do >with any logical fallacy. Besides, that's a horse of another colour, and a pretty kettle of fish to boot. SignaturePaul > > What other expressions are common in English which have their origins > > in logical fallacies? > > If you mean your title line, this particular phrase has zilch to do > with any logical fallacy. There must be a logical fallacy to describe the misdirected hostility. > If you mean your title line, this particular phrase has zilch to do > with any logical fallacy. Ad hominem argumentum. Farhad >> If you mean your title line, this particular phrase has zilch to do >> with any logical fallacy. > >Ad hominem argumentum. Nonsense. The subject line is not a person. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Nonsense. The subject line is not a person. In both the "ad hominem argumentum" and the "Don't shoot the messenger", there lies this implication that you attack the arguer rather than his claim because you cannot answer a pertinet question. BTW, from your response, it seems you also are very close to commit this fallacy. Farhad >> Nonsense. The subject line is not a person. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > BTW, from your response, it seems you also are very close to commit > this fallacy. But the "messenger" isn't necessarily the arguer. An ad hominem argument "proves" a claim to be false because of the one who argues it, while shooting the messenger attacks the one who brings bad news, even if that news is believed to be true and even if it's not approved of by the one who brings it. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You may hate gravity, but gravity 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |doesn't care. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Clayton Christensen kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > What other expressions are common in English which have their origins > > in logical fallacies? > > If you mean your title line, this particular phrase has zilch to do > with any logical fallacy. It's the result of a non sequitur. "This person brought me bad news; therefore he or she should be shot." -- Jerry Friedman >What other expressions are common in English which have their origins >in logical fallacies? Other than what? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Shoot the pianist instead! Jan > Shoot the pianist instead! > > Jan Please, not the groin! > > Shoot the pianist instead! > > > > Jan > > Please, not the groin! Do your best! Jan |
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