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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Auden: creature comfort
Hello: Would you know what compound type "creature comfort" is? Is "should" in "why all age-groups should find our Age quite so repulsive" the "chancey should," I mean related to "(should) happen to find (by chance)" Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as transitive? --- Ode to the Medieval Poets Chaucer, Langland, Douglas, Dunbar, with all your brother Anons, how on earth did you ever manage, without anaesthetics or plumbing, in daily peril from witches, warlocks, lepers, The Holy Office, foreign mercenaries burning as they came, to write so cheerfully, with no grimaces of self-pathos? Long-winded you could be but not vulgar, bawdy but not grubby, your raucous flytings sheer high-spirited fun, whereas our makers, beset by every creature comfort, immune, they believe, to all superstitions, even at their best are so often morose or kinky, petrified by their gorgon egos. We all ask, but I doubt if anyone can really say why all age-groups should find our Age quite so repulsive. Without its heartless engines, though, you could not tenant my book-shelves, on hand to delect my ear and chuckle my sad flesh: I would gladly just now be turning out verses to applaud a thundery jovial June when the judas-tree is in blossom, but am forbidden by the knowledge that you would have wrought them so much better. W.H. Auden, p. 647 ---- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the "chancey should," I mean related to > "(should) happen to find (by chance)" I would have interpreted 'should' as 'expected' or 'probable'. All age-groups now expect (and are expected by others) to find their Age repulsive. Most people assume children dislike school. Someone who enjoyed school might say 'I don't know why all children should dislike school so much' meaning that children do dislike school; that reaction is expected and probably found in all children even though the speaker doesn't understand it. I don't think that's a common usage, at least not in North America. It's probably more literary or British. I could be wrong, though. Poetry is not my strong point, but I do find your choices interesting. > Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as > transitive? I didn't know 'chuckle' could be transitive, although your explanation does seem to fit. I like the delect....chuckle combination - there's something interesting about the combination of the hard consonant sounds and the pleasant connotations of the words. Cheryl > --- > Ode to the Medieval Poets [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Thanks. > Marius Hancu > > Is "should" in > > "why all age-groups should find our [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > age-groups now expect (and are expected by others) to find their Age > repulsive. Indeed, that's a good one. Somehow, I forgot about it. Thanks. Marius hancu >Hello: > >Would you know what compound type "creature comfort" is? "creature" is used attributively to modify "comfort". OED: creature-comforts, material comforts (such as food and clothing). Also sing.  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Jul 22, 7:37 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >Would you know what compound type "creature comfort" is? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > creature-comforts, material comforts (such as food and clothing). OK, I'm reading it and I can't believe it, thus thanks:-) Marius Hancu >On Jul 22, 7:37 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >OK, I'm reading it and I can't believe it, thus thanks:-) The is an animated short film in which animals in a zoo talk about their circumstances, comfortable and uncomfortable: Creature Comforts (Aardman-Nick Park, 1989) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihhq5_2kaWQ I understand that the words were first spoken and recorded by members of the public and the animation was then created to match the words. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > The is an animated short film in which animals in a zoo talk about their > circumstances, comfortable and uncomfortable: > > Creature Comforts (Aardman-Nick Park, 1989) > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihhq5_2kaWQ And a follow-on series. (Two if you count the American one that was cancelled after only a few episodes.) > I understand that the words were first spoken and recorded by > members of the public and the animation was then created to match > the words. And not only that, it was members of the public being interviewed about their own lives, not merely being asked to read a script. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |_Bauplan_ is just the German word 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for blueprint. Typically, one Palo Alto, CA 94304 |switches languages to indicate |profundity. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard Dawkins (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [well answered and snipped] > Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as > transitive? I'm not sure what you mean by "'chuckle' as a transitive". I think it's related here to "chuck" as in "to chuck someone under the chin". My SOED3 defines this use as "to give a gentle blow", but if you did that repeatedly ("chuckle" as a frequentative form of "chuck"), it could mean something very close to "tickle", and I think that's how Auden is using it. > --- > Ode to the Medieval Poets [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > W.H. Auden, p. 647 > ---- > > Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as > > transitive? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > could mean something very close to "tickle", and I think that's how > Auden is using it. Now that you mentioned it, I looked in my Short Oxford English Dictionary (is that what you mean by SOED?). It doesn't show the relation to "chuck," which verb I know. However, it shows a transitive version for "chuckle": --- chuckle 1. verb trans [sic!] a) Laugh vehemently or convulsively b) Laugh to oneself: make suppressed sounds of glee, etc. E19. 2. verb trans. Call (fowl, etc) together with chuckling sound. rare. L17. 3. verb intrans. Of a a bird: cackle or cluck softly. E19. SOED, p. 407 ---- 2 seems possible in the context: spur oneself to action in writing by calling oneself with a chuckling sound. Now, your reading may be possible, but I don't find anywhere "chuckle" mentioned as a variant of "chuck." Ch > > Age quite so repulsive. Without its heartless > > engines, though, you could not tenant my book-shelves, > > on hand to delect my ear and chuckle > > my sad flesh Thanks. Marius Hancu >> > Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as >> > transitive? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >a) Laugh vehemently or convulsively >b) Laugh to oneself: make suppressed sounds of glee, etc. E19. I'm happy to report that the OED marks that 1.a. as "intr." 1.b. is sense 2 in the OED and is not labelled as either trans. or intr. >2. verb trans. >Call (fowl, etc) together with chuckling sound. rare. L17. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Thanks. >Marius Hancu SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as >>> transitive? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Dictionary (is that what you mean by SOED?). It doesn't show the > relation to "chuck," which verb I know. There's no reference to "chuck v^2", the one you do under a chin, but in my SOED3 (about half the size of a breadbox -- the same?), the entry for the verb "chuckle" refers you to chuck v^1, to make a clucking sound. My suggestion is that Auden is legislating a new use for "chuckle", related to chuck v^2. > However, it shows a transitive version for "chuckle": > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 2 seems possible in the context: spur oneself to action in writing > by calling oneself with a chuckling sound. But it would be the medieval poets doing the chuckling, and so not reflexive. I don't reject your interpretation, even though my preference is for the friendly poking version, since whatever it means is something you can do to flesh; as well, things he can hear are already mentioned, so I would look for something else that might be affected by some kind of chuckling. But I suppose the mention of flesh could be intended to contrast the living poet with the paper ones on his shelves. And there's no reason they can't be both tickling him and clucking at him, in an attempt to get him moving. > Now, your reading may be possible, but I don't find anywhere > "chuckle" mentioned as a variant of "chuck." > Ch Not that "chuck", no. But it doesn't seem much of a stretch to me. Auden puns quite a lot, even in his serious poems: "let the living creature *lie*"; "follow poet, follow *right*".* >>> Age quite so repulsive. Without its heartless >>> engines, though, you could not tenant my book-shelves, >>> on hand to delect my ear and chuckle >>> my sad flesh *IMO, lie: to recline, and to speak an untruth; right: directly, all the way, and that which is right, the good. >> > Also, is "chuckle my sad flesh" a rare example of "chuckle" as >> > transitive? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >> > on hand to delect my ear and chuckle >> > my sad flesh It seems to me that it might mean simply "make me chuckle (with delight)" SignatureJohn |
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