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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Drunk Lesbians Video: Drunk Teen
On 20 July, 14:45, "WbbuoyantF...@gmail.com" <wbbuoyantf...@gmail.com> wrote: [snip pron spam] Talking of lesbians, has anyone ever encountered the label 'WWHSWW'? According to a new report by BEMIS (Black and Ethnic Minority Infrastructures in Scotland), _EveryOne In: Working Towards Equality For Minority Ethnic Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender People in Scotland_, this acronym (which stands for Women Who Have Sex With Women) is preferred by some Afro-Caribbean and Asian civil society organizations because they consider 'lesbian' to be 'at heart a Western concept originating in Europe and North America during the early modern period' and thus 'an act of cultural imperialism' when applied to minority ethnic sexual behaviour. There is only one relevant hit on Google, but Google isn't the real world. How widespread is the term in the real world of government-funded race- specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs? -- VB (initially posted to alt.english.usage by mistake) >On 20 July, 14:45, "WbbuoyantF...@gmail.com" <wbbuoyantf...@gmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >widespread is the term in the real world of government-funded race- >specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs? If these Afro-Caribbean and Asian civil society organizations are using English then they are submitting to "cultural imperialism". They should choose and use a language of their own and then choose or invent their own word for the English "Lesbians" or "WWHSWW". What terminology is used if an Afro-Caribbean or Asian woman has sex with a European woman? (I trust there is no objection to such a coupling.) (I've been puzzling over how to translate the title of a recent British comedy film into words or initialisms that will satisfy touchy minority groups: _Lesbian Vampire Killers_.)  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > (I've been puzzling over how to translate the title of a recent > British comedy film into words or initialisms that will satisfy > touchy minority groups: _Lesbian Vampire Killers_.) Are you worried about offending lesbians or vampires? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If the human brain were so simple 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |That we could understand it, Palo Alto, CA 94304 |We would be so simple |That we couldn't. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> (I've been puzzling over how to translate the title of a recent >> British comedy film into words or initialisms that will satisfy >> touchy minority groups: _Lesbian Vampire Killers_.) > >Are you worried about offending lesbians or vampires? If the ladies in either category are also killers I'd prefer not to offend them. Other than that, I don't see any greater problem with offending lesbians than with offending non-lesbian women. I have never met a vampire so I'll err on the side of caution with them. What I'm not clear about with a lesbian vampire is whether her preference for women is only sexual or whether it extends to choice of blood-suckees. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >(I've been puzzling over how to translate the title of a recent British >comedy film into words or initialisms that will satisfy touchy minority >groups: _Lesbian Vampire Killers_.) I just added the coinage "hemophagicide" to my working vocabulary...the corresponding agent noun is slightly less elegant....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > BrE filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I just added the coinage "hemophagicide" to my working vocabulary...the > corresponding agent noun is slightly less elegant....r But all those -cide words have the peculiarity that the agent and action nouns are identical. Great coinage, though: "Buffy the Haemophagicide". (Sorry: got to preserve the diphthong, or one starts measuring children with pedometers.) (W, by the way, TF does the nick "Buffy" come from? -- Mike. >> BrE filted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >(W, by the way, TF does the nick "Buffy" come from? The name for the Vampire Slayer, from: http://uk.movies.ign.com/articles/425/425492p6.html via Ref 40 at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffy_Summers When asked how he came up with the name of "Buffy", Whedon states "It was the name that I could think of that I could take the least seriously. There is no way you could hear the name Buffy and think, "This is an important person." To juxtapose that with Vampire Slayer, just felt like that kind of thinga B movie. But a B movie that had something more going on. That was my dream." Whedon claims the title was criticized for being too silly, and the television network begged him to change it. He refused, insisting "You don't understand. It has to be this. This is what it is."[40] SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>(W, by the way, TF does the nick "Buffy" come from? > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > network begged him to change it. He refused, insisting "You don't > understand. It has to be this. This is what it is."[40] I'm reminded here of two other bits of pop culture relating to silly "preppie" nicknames: (1) Back in the early 1980s, the Playboy Channel ran a short-lived soap opera in which the MILFish matron teased her stepson "Chip" about his name...her own character was named "Muffy".... (2) The first in a series of comedic fantasy anthologies about swashbuckling women (later to include such collections as "Chicks in Chain-Mail") was called "Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson"...before being transported into a Robert E Howard setting, the title character was known to her friends as "Muffy Birnbaum"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > "preppie" > nicknames: Buffy Ste Marie was a preppie? > > BrE filted: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Buffy Ste Marie was a preppie? Probably. I imagine that one could be a preppy at the University of Massachusetts in the late 1950's or early 1960's. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada John Kane, Kingston ON Canada John Kane filted: >> "R H Draney" <dadoc...@spamcop.net> wrote in messagenews:h48bd501k8g@drn.= >newsguy.com... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Probably. I imagine that one could be a preppy at the University of >Massachusetts in the late 1950's or early 1960's. First person I heard described as a preppie (sure it was spelled that way but I don't feel like checking) was Oliver Barrett, the character played in the movie by Ryan O'Neal, in the 1970 novel "Love Story", just about the time Ms Ste Marie was at her career peak...it was intended (by the Jenny character) to be derogatory....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > (W, by the way, TF does the nick "Buffy" come from? Daughter had a friend with a sister called Buffy - must now be getting on for 40 - named after Buffy St. Marie but I've never known any others. I thought for a moment there was a rabbit so named in a children's book but then remembered it was Miffy. I'm glad I remembered before trying to go to sleep: that's the sort of escaped memory that keeps me awake these nights. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >Mike L wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >to go to sleep: that's the sort of escaped memory that keeps me awake >these nights. When I was two I was deeply attached to Buffy, a sort of Jonathan Jo character with a wheelbarrow, slightly Welsh (from Brecon), who lived over the dairy, and had a lot of moustache. I still have a wooden box he made, which throughout my life has contained shoe polish and brushes. We shall never be parted! Years later I learned that his name was Bufton. I have the impression that it was his surname: I don't think he had any other. Not Tufton, anyway. SignaturePaul > (W, by the way, TF does the nick "Buffy" come from? I'm not sure. Buffy the Vampire Slayer was "Barbara". Buffy Sainte-Marie was "Beverly". I don't know if the given name of Buffy on _Family Affair_ was ever revealed. The late Queen Mother of England was apparently "Buffy" as a child. Google Books hits from the nineteenth century seem to mainly refer to a color, one the OED describes as "of a colour approaching to buff". So I would guess that it probably arose as a reference to hair color. On the other hand, one gives "Buffy" (with male pronouns) as the blindfolded person in Blind Man's Buff, explaining it [Attn Jesse Sheidlower: OED missing sense] In this well-known game, one of the party, having the eyes bandaged with a handkerchief, endeavours to catch one of the players and guess his name; while all the rest, who occasionally buffet the person blinded, thence called Buffy, endeavour to escape from him. Donald Walker, _Games and Sports_, 1837 but that doesn't seem likely for the origin of a girl's nickname. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are just two rules of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |governance in a free society: Mind Palo Alto, CA 94304 |your own business. Keep your hands |to yourself. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Mike L filted: >> I just added the coinage "hemophagicide" to my working vocabulary...the >> corresponding agent noun is slightly less elegant....r [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Haemophagicide". (Sorry: got to preserve the diphthong, or one starts >measuring children with pedometers.) If you insist on the diphthong, you might as well go for the ligature as well: "Buffy the Hæmophagicide" It sings; someone tell Joss Whedon....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Peter Duncanson: > (I've been puzzling over how to translate the title of a recent British > comedy film into words or initialisms that will satisfy touchy minority > groups: _Lesbian Vampire Killers_.) _Lesbian Vampires who are Victims of the Authorities' Tyrannical Prejudice Just Because They Do a Little Killing Once in a While_? SignatureMark Brader | "Don't be silly. A pedant is something you hang Toronto | round your neck, or else you hang them by the neck." msb@vex.net | --Rob Bannister My text in this article is in the public domain. On Jul 22, 9:43 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > (I've been puzzling over how to translate the title of a recent British > comedy film into words or initialisms that will satisfy touchy minority > groups: _Lesbian Vampire Killers_.) I'm still sort of wondering whether the film is about lesbian vampires who also are in a habit of doing some killing every once a while, or conventional lesbians who are into killing vampires, or perhaps a group of dedicated vampire-killers who focus on dykes and won't harm other kinds. For a reason unknown to me, whoever came up with the Finnish title of the film opted for the last one. Perhaps seeing the film would clear this up, but I probably won't bother. On Jul 23, 3:59 pm, I wrote: > who also are in a habit of doing some killing every once a while, or every once *in* a while... Pressing "Send" is like some mind-broadening new drug - it makes you see things you didn't see before. >On Jul 22, 9:43 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Finnish title of the film opted for the last one. Perhaps seeing the >film would clear this up, but I probably won't bother. It seems that there are some lesbian vampires. Two young men come across them by chance and decide to kill them. That is what one does to vampires, innit? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Jul 23, 4:19 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >whoever came up with the > >Finnish title of the film opted for the last one. > > It seems that there are some lesbian vampires. Two young men come across > them by chance and decide to kill them. That is what one does to > vampires, innit? I googled the film up, and considering these vampires' visual appearance, killing them might not be the first thing to come to someone's mind, not to mine anyway. So then, whoever made the translation, he or she may actually have seen the film. >On Jul 23, 4:19 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >appearance, killing them might not be the first thing to come to >someone's mind, not to mine anyway. Agreed. I haven't managed to reconcile the plot as described in Wikipedia and in various reviews in newpapers, with that at IMDb. Not that it matters much. >So then, whoever made the translation, he or she may actually have >seen the film. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >On 20 July, 14:45, "WbbuoyantF...@gmail.com" <wbbuoyantf...@gmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >widespread is the term in the real world of government-funded race- >specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs? Fortunately, I don't live in the real world of government-funded race- specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs. So I have no hands-on experience of Women Who Have Sex With Women. But I can't see it catching on. It's too much of a spluttering mouthful. But is there a real need to label classes of person who do this? It's like having a special word for men who mow their lawns during the hours of darkness. I think we should let them get on with it, and not draw any special attention to them. SignaturePaul >Fortunately, I don't live in the real world of government-funded race- >specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs. So I have no hands-on experience >of Women Who Have Sex With Women. But I can't see it catching on. It's >too much of a spluttering mouthful. I would expect it to be abbreviated as "WSW", by analogy with "MSM", the standard term of art in the public-health arena. (Remember, not all people who couple with members of the same sex are "gay", or even conceive of their relationships in homo/hetero terms. There is a substantial population of Latino MSM who do not consider themselves "gay", and would not give that answer to a multiple-choice question, but who need to be specifically identified for HIV-prevention outreach.) >But is there a real need to label classes of person who do this? I don't know. Are there any specific STDs that are more likely to be transmitted in this way? -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > In article <J564WU11I2ZKF...@fpwolff.demon.co.uk>, > > >Fortunately, I don't live in the real world of government-funded race- > >specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs. So I have no hands-on experience > >of Women Who Have Sex With Women. But I can't see it catching on. It's > >too much of a spluttering mouthful. ... > >But is there a real need to label classes of person who do this? "You can't make a movie out of that book." "Why not?" "It's about a couple of Lesbians." "So what? I'll change them to Austrians." Hays Office Movie Code joke from /The Joys of Yiddish/, which unfortunately I don't have and can't search on line. > I don't know. Are there any specific STDs that are more likely to be > transmitted in this way? Or less likely? -- Jerry Friedman >> On 20 July, 14:45, "WbbuoyantF...@gmail.com" <wbbuoyantf...@gmail.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > of darkness. I think we should let them get on with it, and not draw any > special attention to them. They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the municipal campsite in Torremolinos. -- VB (No, really. What's more, I once canoed to a funeral parlour to fetch a car from its MOT test. And a Serbian performance-artist once stole my slide- projector. Er, that's it. But it's been an interesting life, I suppose.) >> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > >Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the >municipal campsite in Torremolinos. That's somehow somewhat exciting. I don't quite understand the process, but I assume they don't shout in unison. Rather "I'll make you scream and then you make me scream" isn't it? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > > Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the > municipal campsite in Torremolinos. I meant the nocturnal lawn-mowing men, actually. > -- > VB [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > projector. Er, that's it. But it's been an interesting life, I > suppose.) Golly. <thinks> I presented a bouquet to the Queen when I was eight. And I won a year's supply of Dutch cheese in a competition in the local paper. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >> >> Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the >> municipal campsite in Torremolinos. > >I meant the nocturnal lawn-mowing men, actually. Hmm... Nocturnal lawn-mowing lesbians. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>> Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the >>> municipal campsite in Torremolinos. >> I meant the nocturnal lawn-mowing men, actually. >> > Hmm... Nocturnal lawn-mowing lesbians. Oh dear, did Paul's reference to lawn mowing have some other meaning? Something to do with carpets, perhaps? I think I'll creep out of this thread... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>> Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Something to do with carpets, perhaps? I think I'll creep out of this >thread... Nohidden meaning. I was thinking literally. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Something to do with carpets, perhaps? I think I'll creep out of this >thread... I thought I was being manfully open and clear, while always allowing scope for the imaginations of those so inclined. That particular image came to me by an uncle who used to mow his lawns by the light of his car headlamps; but that habit may just have been one of the many unpredictable after-effects of surviving the Burma railway by the secret consumption of d-i-y peanut butter, and owe nothing to any dusky maiden-to-maiden encounters of a Sapphic kind. SignaturePaul >>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>> Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the >>> municipal campsite in Torremolinos. >> I meant the nocturnal lawn-mowing men, actually. >> > Hmm... Nocturnal lawn-mowing lesbians. Not the vampire sort, I trust. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > >Yes, I was once kept awake by noisy lesbians in the next tent at the >municipal campsite in Torremolinos. Ah, Torremolinos. "... And then some adenoidal typists from Birmingham with diarrhea and flabby white legs and hairy bandy-legged wop waiters called Manuel, and then, once a week there's an excursion to the local Roman ruins where you can buy cherryade and melted ice cream and bleedin' Watney's Red Barrel, and one night they take you to a local restaurant with local colour and colouring and they show you there and you sit next to a party of people from Rhyl who keeps singing 'Torremolinos, Torremolinos' and complaining about the food - 'Oh! It's so greasy isn't it?' and then you get cornered by some drunken greengrocer from Luton with an Instamatic and Dr Scholl sandals and last Tuesday's 'Daily Express' and he drones on and on and on about how Mr. Smith should be running this country and how many languages Enoch Powell can speak and then he throws up all over the Cuba Libres..." Eric Idle, wasn't it? http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode31.htm SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Eric Idle, wasn't it? >http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode31.htm Definitely his style of writing and he would get first dibs on performing his own sketch. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. > They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. So do some people having sex, whether women or not. SignatureRob Bannister >> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > >So do some people having sex, whether women or not. So do some women, whether having sex or not. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>> >> So do some people having sex, whether women or not. > > So do some women, whether having sex or not. And so do most lawnmowers, which was where this started. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And so do most lawnmowers, which was where this started. That's another one for Opportunity Knocks. Lawnmowers having sex. I'd vote for that. SignatureDavid "the Omrud" <usenet.omrud@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote : >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, >>>>> though. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That's another one for Opportunity Knocks. Lawnmowers having sex. I'd > vote for that. Put me down for one of the offspring. Bound to be cheaper than Homebase. Philip >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >That's another one for Opportunity Knocks. Lawnmowers having sex. I'd >vote for that. Hughie Green must be turning in his grave. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >That's another one for Opportunity Knocks. Lawnmowers having sex. I'd >vote for that. I see we're back to sheep. SignatureRichard Bollard Canberra Australia To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT. >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, >>>>> though. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That's another one for Opportunity Knocks. Lawnmowers having sex. I'd > vote for that. But I'm still hesitant about allowing them to marry. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >And so do most lawnmowers, which was where this started. Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? Do you have any contradictory evidence? We have two lawnmowers living in our garage but I think they are celibate. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Do you have any contradictory evidence? We have two lawnmowers living in > our garage but I think they are celibate. Sure, that's the story they give to the landlady. And you believed them? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>>>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Sure, that's the story they give to the landlady. And you believed > them? Landlady? They don't pay rent and I don't serve them drinks. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >>>>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Landlady? They don't pay rent and I don't serve them drinks. You are letting two lawnmowers cohabit rent free on your property? At the very least this sounds fiscally imprudent. Perhaps you should consult a qualified accountant. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) [...] > > >>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? > > >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > At the very least this sounds fiscally imprudent. Perhaps you should > consult a qualified accountant. No, Laura's already claimed the mowers against tax for her first home this year and her second one last year (HP saucers call this "flipping" because it's a flipping crafty dodge): so any rent she could collect would render her liable to capital gains tax on transfer. -- Mike. > [...] > > > >>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > could collect would render her liable to capital gains tax on > transfer. Well, that's all accounted for, then. I'll sleep easier knowing that someone understands this stuff. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >> [...] >> > > >>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Well, that's all accounted for, then. I'll sleep easier knowing that >someone understands this stuff. Yes, we can close the books on this. On the balance, I think it's best we do. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> [...] >>>>>>>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Yes, we can close the books on this. On the balance, I think it's > best we do. On *the* balance? I've always heard the expression as "on balance". Is this a Pondian difference? While I think about it, conversation with a charming and erudite friend this week turned to words ending with -iguous. We could only come up with three: are there more? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Quoth LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk>, and I quote: >While I think about it, conversation with a charming and erudite friend >this week turned to words ending with -iguous. We could only come up >with three: are there more? Only if you add words described by the OED as obsolete or rare: attiguous irriguous subriguous Then you can add words formed with negative prefixes: unambiguous incontiguous (obsolete) The list is indeed exiguous, just like Dennis. SignatureJames >>>> [...] >>>>>>>>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >On *the* balance? I've always heard the expression as "on balance". Is >this a Pondian difference? I think you will have to wait until some others make entries. Either "on balance" or "on the balance" works for me. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > LFS wrote: >>> Yes, we can close the books on this. On the balance, I think it's >>> best we do. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think you will have to wait until some others make entries. Either > "on balance" or "on the balance" works for me. I'm one of the "on balance" crowd. So is M-W Online, I now see. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >> [...] >>>>>>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Well, that's all accounted for, then. I'll sleep easier knowing that > someone understands this stuff. I wish I did. I have to pay an accountant... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >> [...] > >>>>>>> Lawnmowers make an awful noise when having sex? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I wish I did. I have to pay an accountant... Well, it wouldn't be much of a profession if one didn't have to pay them, after all. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) [...] > >>> At the very least this sounds fiscally imprudent. Perhaps you should > >>> consult a qualified accountant. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I wish I did. I have to pay an accountant... Ah, the inequalities of British life! Among the labouring classes it is universally acknowledged that the cobbler's children have no shoes. -- Mike. >tony cooper wrote: >> On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:28:49 +0100, LFS [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Do you have any contradictory evidence? We have two lawnmowers living >in our garage but I think they are celibate. Cf. the rake's progress. Meanwhile, my lawnmower (Mountfield by name, mountfield by nature) sees itself as a gay young blade, though in truth it would more aptly be called Anthony Blunt. SignaturePaul > >>>>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Do you have any contradictory evidence? We have two lawnmowers living in > our garage but I think they are celibate. Have any hedge clippers mysteriously appeared? -- Jerry Friedman > >>> They do make an awful noise when one is trying to get to sleep, though. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And so do most lawnmowers, which was where this started. But the whole thing has brought on in me a severe attack of "How on earth can it be called, even euphemistically, 'sex' when the participants are of the same sex?" But in that case, what /is/ one to call it? VB is a MWHHSFFTL? HSBSL: IDTICERH. -- Mike. Paul Wolff filted: >Fortunately, I don't live in the real world of government-funded race- >specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs. So I have no hands-on experience >of Women Who Have Sex With Women. But I can't see it catching on. It's >too much of a spluttering mouthful. It's also excessively restrictive...it would have to be "Women Who Have Sex With Women, Or Who Prefer To Have Sex With Women While Nonetheless Resigned To Doing It With Men On Occasion For Reasons Other Than Romantic Attraction, Or Who Haven't Actually Had Sex At All But Are More Inclined To Fancy Those Of Their Own Sex Than The Alternative".... Your car would need a much larger bumper to make room for that sticker.... >But is there a real need to label classes of person who do this? It's >like having a special word for men who mow their lawns during the hours >of darkness. I think we should let them get on with it, and not draw any >special attention to them. The difference is that there is, to the best of my knowledge, no sizable market in videos of male nocturnal groundskeeping....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Vinny Burgoo <hlunnh@yahoo.co.uk> wrote" >> <wbbuoyantf> wrote: >> [snip pron spam] >> Talking of lesbians, has anyone ever encountered the label >> 'WWHSWW'? According to a new report by BEMIS (Black and Ethnic [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > experience of Women Who Have Sex With Women. But I can't see it > catching on. It's too much of a spluttering mouthful. Not if you pronounce it "wazoo". > [no horses were alarmed] > Fortunately, I don't live in the real world of government-funded race- > specific sex-preference advocacy NGOs. So I have no hands-on experience of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > darkness. I think we should let them get on with it, and not draw any > special attention to them. MWMTLDTHOD. Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> quoted: >Women Who Have Sex With Women (Sorry, I am late to this thread and have not read all of it, so I might repeat something.) »A woman who has sex with a woman« can not be a substitute for »a lesbian«, because the meanings differ. »A lesbian«, to me, is a woman who is (sexually) attracted to women, but not to men. »A woman who has sex with a woman« does not not to be lesbian in this sense, and a lesbian woman in this sense does not need to have sex with a woman. Moreover, the verbal phrase »to have sex with« is very vague: What exactly does »to have sex with« mean here? And does this mean: In this very moment or having had sex sometimes in her livetime, even if it was decades ago? In the realm of public authorities both definitions appear inappropriate, because it is inappropriate for a public authority to investigate to whom a woman is sexually attracted or with whom she has sex. In this realm, a »lesbian« woman should be defined as a woman who claims herself to be lesbian. >Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> quoted: >>Women Who Have Sex With Women [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > mean: In this very moment or having had sex sometimes in her > livetime, even if it was decades ago? Mr W.J. Clinton, formerly of The White House, Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C., seemed to have a liberal (or was it conservative?) view of what the phrase meant[1]. It was plastic, anyway. > In the realm of public authorities both definitions appear > inappropriate, because it is inappropriate for a public > authority to investigate to whom a woman is sexually attracted > or with whom she has sex. In this realm, a ›lesbian‹ woman > should be defined as a woman who claims herself to be lesbian. You can't do that in this age of minority quotas and affirmative action, or any Tom, Dick or Harry could make a valid claim for positive lesbian discrimination when it suited her. [1] Close, but no cigar. SignaturePaul >>Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> quoted: >>>Women Who Have Sex With Women [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >[1] Close, but no cigar. The matter of Clinton's use of the phrase is discussed at: http://www.languageandlaw.org/PERJURY.HTM SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Paul Wolff <bounceme@two.wolff.co.uk> quoted: >>Women Who Have Sex With Women [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > or with whom she has sex. In this realm, a »lesbian« woman > should be defined as a woman who claims herself to be lesbian. I also came in late, but on the face of it, your final statement seems strange. If I claim to be an elephant or a botanist, that doesn't make me either. My own definition of a lesbian is a woman who, instead of preferring to have sex with men, frequently performs or has thoughts of performing or receiving cunnilingus. Alternatively, she could be a woman who engages passively or actively in similar activities with another woman or several women or she could engage in a multitude of homosexual activities. Bisexuality, which from my limited experience is more common in women, is probably best reserved for a separate thread. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, who speaks AmE, lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > >Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> quoted: > >>Women Who Have Sex With Women [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > another woman or several women or she could engage in a multitude of > homosexual activities. Its a matter of sexual orientation; And in the case of lesbian, I take that to mean a woman who is solely sexually attracted to women (or a single woman); Sexual attraction I understand is not merely about admiration or acknowledgement of certain characteristics or qualities, but that it is about wanting another/ other woman/women sexually. That leads to the complexity of sexuality, especially of women and the fact that a woman, of either orientation, can communicate and assert such longings by doing no more than tracing one of her fingers across your palm with such intensity of sexuality as to instantly accomplish your full sexual arousal, even if you were not at all expecting it. Touch can be entirely sexual without having entailed or involved the 'usual' sexual parts, and that the sexual wanting is the bench mark and not the fantasy or engagement of specific acts as these would be just symptoms of that wanting. > Bisexuality, which from my limited experience is more common in women, > is probably best reserved for a separate thread. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >the sexual wanting is the bench mark This wanting can not be sensed directly from the outside, only indirectly by - the interpretation of brain-scan images, - the interpretation of behavior, or - the interpretation of speech (a special form of behavior). The interpretation of brain-scan images is new, but still experimental and controversial. The interpretation of behavior is difficult, since a woman might actively behave so as to hide the fact that she has this wanting. One might try to interpret subconscious behavior using psychological test methods, but this might have the disturbing effect of detecting the wanting in a person who is not aware of it and sincerely denies to have this wanting. Some test methods also might not be sufficiently reliable. Finally, we might simply ask her, whether she has this wanting, but then she might intentionally lie to us. But since there does not seem to be a better choice, we can assume that she does not lie until proven otherwise. This leads to my idea that a lesbian woman is a woman who claims to be a lesbian woman. A woman also might choose not to answer to our question; in this case we will not know, whether she is lesbian or not. >Finally, we might simply ask her, whether she has this >wanting, but then she might intentionally lie to us. But since >there does not seem to be a better choice, we can assume that >she does not lie until proven otherwise. And in court, it should not be so easy to lie about this, because, when a woman claims that she is lesbian, another party might prove this to be wrong using witnesses or evidence. If this leads to the verdict that she as lied in court this lie might be a punishable offence, so that it is not that easy for a woman to lie about this. >>Finally, we might simply ask her, whether she has this >>wanting, but then she might intentionally lie to us. But since [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > court this lie might be a punishable offence, so that it is > not that easy for a woman to lie about this. I'm not so sure that it would not be easy for a woman to lie about her sexual preferences. People may suspect she is lying, but such lying could, in many cases, be hard to prove. Question: In today's (Western) world, under what circumstances would a woman claiming to be (or claiming not be be) a lesbian be brought before a court to settle the matter? And would the same circumstances come into play for a man claiming (or not claiming) to be gay? AIDS (or other sexually transmitted diseases) or child molestation may cause such court proceedings, but the sex or sexual preference of a person would not necessarily have bearing on the matter. (Or so it seems to me.) SignatureMaria Conlon >Question: In today's (Western) world, under what circumstances >would a woman claiming to be (or claiming not be be) a lesbian >be brought before a court to settle the matter? When there is positive discrimination rule in force for lesbian women, a woman might sue an institution to apply this to her, but the institution might say that it did not apply to her, because she was not lesbian. One means to question whether a woman is telling the truth would be witnesses or evidence that shows that, in other court hearings, she has said the opposite of what she says now regarding her sexual orientiation. She might answer that this is because her sexual orientation has changed in the meantime. >>Question: In today's (Western) world, under what circumstances >>would a woman claiming to be (or claiming not be be) a lesbian [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > regarding her sexual orientiation. She might answer that this > is because her sexual orientation has changed in the meantime. Now I'm wondering how often this sort of thing* could come up. (Has it, indeed, already happened? Are some scholarships, for example, awarded to "lesbians only"?) * That is: a woman untruthfully claiming to be a lesbian in order to attain something that is unavailable to her because she is not a lesbian. SignatureMaria Conlon > Now I'm wondering how often this sort of thing* could come up. (Has it, > indeed, already happened? Are some scholarships, for example, awarded to > "lesbians only"?) Yes, there are lots of them - although most are also available to self- identified gay, bisexual and transgender students. Which is fair enough. You ought to be able to give money to whomever you like. Although the 'self-identified' bit is surely asking for trouble. There are also 'intersectional' scholarships - awarded to, for example, 'deaf queers' [sic], LGBT wannabe pilots, LGBT wannabe journalists, LGBT athletes and LGBT Pacific Islanders residing in Southern California. > * That is: a woman untruthfully claiming to be a lesbian in order to > attain something that is unavailable to her because she is not a > lesbian. How about a man untruthfully claiming to be First Nation in order to attain something that was unavailable to him because he was not First Nation? Several weeks ago, I spent an entire evening surfing for info about Grey Owl, who became a half-Apache, adoptively Ojibwa trapper- turned-conservationist because he found that happiness was unavailable to him as the son of a bigamous paedophiliac white English remittance man from Hastings. A fascinating story! I confess that I was drawn to it because I thought he'd turn out to be a complete jerk (I enjoy sneering) but, if you turn a blind eye to his trigamy, an attempted murder and a lot of drunkenness, he was in fact wholly admirable. And the deeper I delved, the more wonderful his story became. I finally switched off the machine when I discovered that after his death the love of his life - a dirt-poor half-Mohawk girl who had spent forty minutes trying to strangle him at their last meeting - married a Swedish count (probably bigamously on his part). That was just too much. The story had become a fairy tale. Which takes us back to where we started. Here's a debate in the Canadian parliament about fears that bogus homosexuals are claiming affirmative dental benefits: <http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx? DocId=1040124&Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=36&Ses=2> -- VB >> Now I'm wondering how often this sort of thing* could come up. (Has it, >> indeed, already happened? Are some scholarships, for example, awarded to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > enough. You ought to be able to give money to whomever you like. > Although the 'self-identified' bit is surely asking for trouble. I should point out that one of the things driving such scholarships is the number of parents who disown children who come out. So some people try to make up for the parents who don't help their gay children with college by setting up scholarships specifically for gay students. --Jeff SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire >>> Now I'm wondering how often this sort of thing* could come up. (Has it, >>> indeed, already happened? Are some scholarships, for example, awarded to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >try to make up for the parents who don't help their gay children with >college by setting up scholarships specifically for gay students. Is disowning a child under 18 still legal / possible in Britain? In England? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Is disowning a child under 18 still legal / possible in Britain? In > England? Well, if the child is much under 18, he or she probably wouldn't be looking for scholarships to a post-secondary university'. For the legal adults (whether students or not)'cutting you out of the will' makes more sense than 'disowning' except in a figurative sense, since they are legally adults and not owned. I think in Canada you can disown an under 18 child, although it's not called that, and has to involve giving up parental rights to the child to the appropriate government agency. You can't just say 'You are no child of mine! Never darken my door again!' and make no further provision for the child. Things get complicated if the child is in the mid to late teens. Some of them can get classified as adults; some neither live as adults nor live under anyone's care and end up on the streets. When you think about it, there really has to be some legal way to break the parent/child legal bond for use in extreme cases, whether it's a disagreement over behaviour or abuse (going either way). Cheryl >> Is disowning a child under 18 still legal / possible in Britain? In >> England? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Cheryl In my business (in California) there was the concept of "emancipated juvenile", usually sought on behalf of the child who had established a marriage or marriage-like relationship and needed defense against a possessive parent. I did see a couple of emancipations for the benefit of a parent, but I'm not sure what they were called. SignatureFrank ess >> Is disowning a child under 18 still legal / possible in Britain? In >> England? [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >the parent/child legal bond for use in extreme cases, whether it's a >disagreement over behaviour or abuse (going either way). An interesting answer, Cheryl. In England, as in France, people are considered as adults when they reach 18, and theoretically are supposed to be able to stand on their own two feet. However, in France I do know that if children are capable of tertiary education their parents have to provide some support up to age 23. I do not know if there are any such laws in England as my children grew up in France. As to child abuse, social services have plenty of powers to step in and remove children under 18 who are at risk. In some famous cases they've got it wrong and the children of innocent parents have been formally adopted by others and the blood parents have lost all rights. However, I was thinking of children under 18, possibly in a "battered parent" situation, or child drug addicts or criminals where the parents have had enough. I know in practice that many of these kids end up on the streets or dead, but neither of those is legally sanctioned. I just wondered if there was any way that a parent or guardian could legally say "enough is enough" other than having the child arrested for a serious offence. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> Is disowning a child under 18 still legal / possible in Britain? In >>> England? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >guardian could legally say "enough is enough" other than having the >child arrested for a serious offence. Parental responsibility in England, Wales and Northern Ireland lasts until the child is 18. "Can we Legally Throw Our 16 Year Old Son Out?" http://www.lawandparents.co.uk/can-we-legally-throw-our-16-year-old-son-out.html The answer is No. I have a 16 year old stepson who has been in a group home and after he returned home, he was expelled from school for breaking and entering and also for vandalism. What are the legal ramifications that we as parents will face if we throw him out of our house? He causes constant turmoil and was initially removed from our home for peeking at my 12 year old daughter while she was in the shower. Please help! (Mrs Kimberly Lawson,...) .... Technically a person with parental responsibility for a child, who fails to look after that child, could be prosecuted for child neglect. Therefore, if either of you do have parental responsibility for this boy it would be inadvisable to throw him out. Clearly the current situation is unsustainable and you all need help of some kind. Googling for >child leave home 16 site:.uk< finds various comments which sometimes conflict. This is probably because of oversimplification. This is from: http://www.yourrights.org.uk/ specifically http://tinyurl.com/nc9ptj Leaving Home Generally, young people under 16 cannot leave home unless their parents agree.. The law relating to 16 to 17 year olds is not clear but it appears that they probably can leave home without parental consent. In theory, parents can apply to court for the return home of a child under 18 by seeking an injunction in wardship proceedings or a residence order. However, a court is extremely unlikely to order a child of 16 to 17 to return home against his or her wishes. .... The police are unlikely to return a child over the age of 16 to his or her parents. Ages of Consent The legal definition of childhood remains quite fluid, and while children do not acquire full independence until they reach the age of 18 they can legally engage in certain adult activities before that age. At 16 a young person can consent to sex, join the armed services (although they will not generally be deployed on active service until they are 18) and get married with their parents consent. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > > At 16 a young person can consent to sex, join the armed services > (although they will not generally be deployed on active service > until they are 18) and get married with their parent’s consent. For example as Amnesty International reported, the United Kingdom in June 2003, "formally ratified an important child rights treaty - pledging to try to avoid deploying its under-age soldiers into active combat - but then also undermined the treaty's purpose by reserving wide discretion to use young people in battle." In addition, Amnesty also noted that No other European country apart from the UK deploys under-18s. http://www.globalissues.org/article/82/children-conflicts-and-the-military SignatureThe comfort of the wealthy has always depended upon an abundant supply of the poor. --Voltaire > > At 16 a young person can consent to sex, join the armed services > > (although they will not generally be deployed on active service [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > http://www.globalissues.org/article/82/children-conflicts-and-the-mil... If no other country apart from the UK deploys under-18s, which is the other country apart from the UK that does, in English usage? > -- > The comfort of the wealthy has always > depended upon an abundant supply of > the poor. --Voltaire -- The dragonfly family has more species than any other mammal. -- The Guardian > > For example as Amnesty International reported, the United Kingdom in > > June 2003, "formally ratified an important child rights treaty - [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If no other country apart from the UK deploys under-18s, which is the > other country apart from the UK that does, in English usage? The land of No'd, is the nearest I can get to a logical answer. > > The comfort of the wealthy has always > > depended upon an abundant supply of > > the poor. --Voltaire And they shall always be with us, so no problem there, then. > The dragonfly family has more species than any other mammal. -- The > Guardian The family ranks below the order but above the subfamily and the genus, which in turn ranks above the species. True dragonflies occupy the suborder Anisoptera of the order Odonata. Their habit of suckling their young is as yet largely unrecorded. Dragonfly males have both primary and secondary sexual apparatus. He has to charge his secondary with sperm from his primary, in a manoeuvre reminiscent of the drill of a musketeer, before he can successfully discharge his piece. No marks for working out how this has led to the consideration of a new dish, to be named gentoo burgoo. The place for the IPO is still a toss-up between Hindustan and Port Stanley. -- franzi In article <940fb88c-7e90-495b-8829-ec9f3bf1ac06@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, > > > At 16 a young person can consent to sex Or even younger, depending on jurisdiction and sometimes on circumstances. > If no other country apart from the UK deploys under-18s, which is the > other country apart from the UK that does, in English usage? Too confusing for me. I can see that correct English would be "no country, apart from..." but isn't the original author's solecism insufficient to lead to the humorous extension? > In article > <940fb88c-7e90-495b-8829-ec9f3bf1a...@c14g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > country, apart from..." but isn't the original author's solecism > insufficient to lead to the humorous extension? In a.u.e., as far as I can tell, no solecism is insufficient to lead to a humorous extension, regardless of extent. -- Jerry Friedman likes it that way. > However, I was thinking of children under 18, possibly in a "battered > parent" situation, or child drug addicts or criminals where the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > guardian could legally say "enough is enough" other than having the > child arrested for a serious offence. It seems to depend on age. A young child, yes, you can sign them over to the 'social services' or your local equivalent (family law varies a bit by province). This can put parents of children with very extensive disabilities in a nasty situation, because once you sign the child over, you lose all inpute into its care - and yet you may not physically or financially be able to care for the child yourself. I was sort of vaguely thinking about the situation you describe, because I'd recently read that in another province, a child in the mid-teens can refuse to be signed over to the authorities, which made me wonder what recourse is left for those parents who have raised violent young thugs. I suspect most do eventually end up on the street, but I know some 16+ youth do get some government support to live alone when they are too old for group homes. At that point, the youth must be legally emancipated from their parents or whatever the term is. The sums involved for able-bodied youth support in this way are very small, by all accounts, unless the youth has a dependant. Like a baby. Unless they've changed the local rules on support for post-secondary education, student assistance was determined by the parents' incomes, the number of other children in the family and so on. However, it wasn't that difficult to be treated as an independent adult by the system, and you could certainly do so well before age 23 - you needed proof that you'd been self-supporting for a year, IIRC. Rent receipts, proof of some income, etc. Cheryl >> However, I was thinking of children under 18, possibly in a "battered >> parent" situation, or child drug addicts or criminals where the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >able-bodied youth support in this way are very small, by all accounts, >unless the youth has a dependant. Like a baby. Yes, I, too, was thinking about recourse in those situations, just theoretically, for my children are long since adults. The word "disown" sparked me. About 60 years ago there was a widespread belief that bad children could be disowned by their parents and end up in Borstal institutions. Heck, it might have been true back in the late 1940s and early 1950s. I spent some time trawling through the site that Peter provided (many thanks, P) and found a lot of (politically correct) stuff about rights and responsibilities but not a lot on the help that one might get if one was quite happy to pay for a young thug who was disrupting the rest of the family, but before it was so bad that police and courts were involved. As you say, the first step must be social services. >Unless they've changed the local rules on support for post-secondary >education, student assistance was determined by the parents' incomes, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >you'd been self-supporting for a year, IIRC. Rent receipts, proof of >some income, etc. I have no idea how it works today in England, because of student loans, but that's how student grants worked back in the late 1950s / early 1960s. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>Unless they've changed the local rules on support for post-secondary >>education, student assistance was determined by the parents' incomes, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >loans, but that's how student grants worked back in the late 1950s / >early 1960s. In nthe 80s my son's grant was dependent upon my income, until he got married, at which point the salient figure became his and his wife's combined incomes. As this was a lot less than mine, he (and I, of course) did pretty well out of it, and I considered recommending this strategy to other hard-pressed parents. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>Unless they've changed the local rules on support for post-secondary >>>education, student assistance was determined by the parents' incomes, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >course) did pretty well out of it, and I considered recommending this >strategy to other hard-pressed parents. It hasn't changed much, except that the numbers have got bigger. Apart from getting married or being over 21 at the beginning of your course, it's quite difficult to persuade TPTB that you are independent of your parents. There has to be irretrievable breakdown of the relationship, evidenced by no communication at all for at least a year (I think), and/or evidence from an accredited social worker. When I had a student who had been totally brought up by her grandparents, with occasional birthday cards from her mother but no financial support from either parent from the day she was born, it took months to persuade the authorities to assess her on her grandparents' income and not the parents (who were by this time quite well off but had no intention whatever of supporting their daughter). If it hadn't been for the birthday cards it would have been much easier. Katy > It hasn't changed much, except that the numbers have got bigger. Apart from > getting married or being over 21 at the beginning of your course, it's [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > daughter). If it hadn't been for the birthday cards it would have been much > easier. In my day, in Canada, they just looked at financial data - were you supporting yourself and living apart from your parents. They didn't get into whether or not you were on good terms with them. A few years back, the local authorities started insisting on financial information, and possible support toward educational costs from, non-resident/custodial parents to a far greater extent than they had previously. I gather quite a number of students suddenly had to pry this financial information from parents who had not only not supported them, but whose location was unknown to the family. I know that in many separations/divorces there's a written agreement re who pays what toward the post-secondary education of an adult or nearly adult child, but this obviously wasn't always the case as was evident by the number of students suddenly faced with getting a financial statement from a parent who hadn't even been in their lives for practically all 18 years or so. Cheryl >>> Now I'm wondering how often this sort of thing* could come up. (Has >>> it, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > try to make up for the parents who don't help their gay children with > college by setting up scholarships specifically for gay students. Thanks to you and Vinny, I now know something I didn't know before. (I had no idea there were scholarships for LGBT would-be students.) SignatureMaria Conlon [...] > Several weeks ago, I spent an entire evening surfing for info > about Grey Owl, who became a half-Apache, adoptively Ojibwa trapper- [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Swedish count (probably bigamously on his part). That was just too > much. The story had become a fairy tale. [...] Excellent news, even the Swedish count, who will no doubt turn out to be the Abba woman's (Betty? Whoopee? Dippy? --or is that the men?) father-in-law. G Wol's been on my to-do list ever since Ray Mears spoke highly of him while building a birch-bark canoe. -- Mike. > Excellent news, even the Swedish count, who will no doubt turn out to > be the Abba woman's (Betty? Whoopee? Dippy? --or is that the men?) > father-in-law. G Wol's been on my to-do list ever since Ray Mears > spoke highly of him while building a birch-bark canoe. Not sure about the Abba connection but I think one of the count's daughters is a Danish MEP. (Or is she merely a major CAP beneficiary? Or both? Can't remember.) -- VB <http://scaa.sk.ca/ourlegacy/jpegs/MG01-XI-B-307-Grey-Owl-p06.jpg> Zotero's the thing: you no longer need a mind >[...] >> Several weeks ago, I spent an entire evening surfing for info [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >father-in-law. G Wol's been on my to-do list ever since Ray Mears >spoke highly of him while building a birch-bark canoe. Well, yes, and I had to return to it to overcome my initial and supercilious lifted eyebrow; but it was hard work to find the dental problem in the cited parliamentary minutes. But I soon acquired some key stage 5 expressions: "Everyone's had a fair kick at the cat." and "Just to pull the camera back a little..." and was very pleased to be reminded that 'conjugal' refers to being harnessed together under the common yoke, just as 'subjugate' refers to the Roman way of pointing out to an enemy that they were as oxen in the conquerors' hands. SignaturePaul >Question: In today's (Western) world, under what circumstances would a >woman claiming to be (or claiming not be be) a lesbian be brought before >a court to settle the matter? In Orlando it is illegal to refuse to rent an apartment or house to a person because that person is homosexual. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>Question: In today's (Western) world, under what circumstances would a >>woman claiming to be (or claiming not be be) a lesbian be brought [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In Orlando it is illegal to refuse to rent an apartment or house to a > person because that person is homosexual. That's probably the case in some other places as well. My own thinking: The people who should be barred from certain places would be predators of children or of adults who are children mentally or emotionally. Also, I think that a heterosexual person's sexual orientation cannot/will not be changed due to encounters with non-heteros. Further, I don't think lesbians should necessarily-and-automatically be included in that group of people who should be barred from certain places. Ditto gay men. I think it takes something entirely different from lesbianism/homosexualism to be harmful to others. I'm not sure I can define that "something entirely different," but "straight" people can certainly be evil, as history and current newscasts tell us again and again. AUE may not be the place to discuss all this, but the matter does have some connection to English usage in that certain words/terms (regarding sexual orientation) are cleverly-stated signals that can do a lot of harm. SignatureMaria Conlon, Heterosexual, in case anyone wonders. >On 20 July, 14:45, "WbbuoyantF...@gmail.com" <wbbuoyantf...@gmail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >early modern period' and thus 'an act of cultural imperialism' when >applied to minority ethnic sexual behaviour. Perhaps these people should be introduced to the concept of Etymological Fallacies (or would Phalluses be more appropriate?). SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) In article <b0556b1d-b77b-4c7d-9c4f-8d770519e707 @a26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, hlunnh@yahoo.co.uk says... > On 20 July, 14:45, "WbbuoyantF...@gmail.com" <wbbuoyantf...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > [snip pron spam] > > Talking of lesbians, has anyone ever encountered the label 'WWHSWW'? I don't think it's widespread, but apart from the unwieldiness of the label, it's an important and useful distinction. Not all WWHSWW are lesbians, and not all MWHSWM are gay. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary On Jul 23, 12:05 pm, Amethyst Deceiver <s...@lindsayendell.co.uk> wrote: > @a26g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, hlu...@yahoo.co.uk says... > > Talking of lesbians, has anyone ever encountered the label 'WWHSWW'? > > I don't think it's widespread, but apart from the unwieldiness of the > label, it's an important and useful distinction. Not all WWHSWW are > lesbians, and not all MWHSWM are gay. I can see how such doggedly descriptive labels could be important and useful tools for public-health workers trying to overcome aversion to the more conventional terms (as Garrett said) but they can cause almost insoluble problems in less urgent contexts, such as the intrinsically self-contradictory world of equalities and diversities advocacy. The BEMIS report rejected the use of 'WWHSWW' and 'MWHSWM' because they were thought to be (1) insufficiently celebratory of the minority ethnic* organizations that are happy with traditional LGBT terminology, (2) 'dangerously close' to being an endorsement of the homophobia found in some minority ethnic communities and (3) a repudiation of the 'gay identity as such'. Minority ethnic pride clashed with gay pride and, on this occasion, gay pride won. No doubt there'll be another report next year declaring that imperialism trumps homophobia. In the end, BEMIS plumped for the somewhat weak formula 'people who may identify as ME/LGBT' (always in full; 'PWMIAME/LGBT' would be ridiculous), which they hoped, probably in vain, would be interpreted 'in the broadest possible sense to include as wide a range of people and views as possible'. But that's the real world of identity politics. There are always tough choices to be made. * Corrigenda: (1) The report's title is _EveryOne IN_**, not _EveryOne In_; the project itself is usually given as _Everyone IN_ (also _EveryoneIN_, _EveryoneIn_ and _Everyone In_). (2) BEMIS stands for 'Black and Ethnic Minorities Infrastructure in Scotland', not 'Black and Ethnic Minority Infrastructures in Scotland'. Sorry. *I have respected BEMIS's usage by not hyphenating this term. BEMIS uses both 'minority ethnic' and ethnic minority'. I have used the former because that is the form used in the title of the report. **The 236-page report doesn't explain its capitalisation of 'IN' but there is a hint in the acknowledgements: 'The time and effort that everyone has put into this research will now provide us all with a firmer foundation from which to ensure that everyone is INcluded better in Scotland.' BEMIS's statements are often differently Englished but this sentence might mean that the 'IN' of the title is a reminder that the word 'inclusion' begins with those letters. But it's deep stuff and I'm not really qualified to comment. -- VB MWHHSFFTL |
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