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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Auden: Roarer
Hello: Re: As I Walked Out One Evening by W. H. Auden http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15551 1. Any ideas/connotations about the "Roarer?" Any known (historical) character? 2. Also: "And Jill goes down on her back." Does this mean: "And Jill is prostituting herself? 3. Any connotations brought about by the "Giant?" --- [...] But all the clocks in the city Began to whirr and chime: 'O let not Time deceive you, You cannot conquer Time. ... 'The glacier knocks in the cupboard, The desert sighs in the bed, And the crack in the tea-cup opens A lane to the land of the dead. 'Where the beggars raffle the banknotes And the Giant is enchanting to Jack, And the Lily-white Boy is a Roarer, And Jill goes down on her back. [...] p. 115 ----- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Does this mean: > "And Jill is prostituting herself? It could be, if time is at an end. But the association between "Jack and Jill" comes to mind, as "she comes tumbling after". > 3. Any connotations brought about by the "Giant?" A number of "fairy tales", as well as the nursery rhyme above make the entire picture gruesome. (Jack the Giant Killer, Jack and the Beanstalk) I don't know the Lily-White Boy, or the Roarer. I assume some role-reversal, though. > --- > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > p. 115 > ----- >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >3. Any connotations brought about by the "Giant?" I think what we see in that last verse is people behaving in the opposite way to how they normally would. "Where the beggars raffle the banknotes" The beggars have money instead of none. "And the Giant is enchanting to Jack" This refers to the story of Jack and the Beanstalk in which the Giant is hostile to Jack. (He wants to eat him.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_and_the_Beanstalk "And the Lily-white Boy is a Roarer" OED: lily-white, a. b. Irreproachable, lacking faults or imperfections. roarer b. A noisy, riotous bully or reveller; a wild roisterer. Obs. "And Jill goes down on her back" I can't think offhand of an archetypal Jill who would fit this precisely. I assume that we are expected to see her as a chaste woman who is now behaving unchastely. I don't think she would necessarily need to be paid. >--- >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >p. 115 >-----  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Re: As I Walked Out One Evening > by W. H. Auden > http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15551 > 1. Any ideas/connotations about the "Roarer?" Any known (historical) > character? > 2. Also: > "And Jill goes down on her back." > Does this mean: > "And Jill is prostituting herself? > 3. Any connotations brought about by the "Giant?" Jack and the Giant are traditional adversaries, in such children's stories as "Jack and the Beanstalk" and "Jack the Giant-Killer". There is a great deal of commentary to be googled about this poem. One suggestion is that "the Roarer" is a figure from a child's nightmare, perhaps personal to Auden. Another is that the poem's theme of the corruption of innocence or simplicity by time is illustrated by the sexualisation of childish images: the Giant is sexually interesting to Jack, who may have abandoned Jill (from the nursery rhyme "Jack and Jill"), the lily-white boy (one of a pair, possibly representing Jesus and John the Baptist, from an old song often called "Green Grow the Rushes-O") is a roarer (old slang for homosexual, according to the commentator), and Jill turns out to be an easy lay. All this is in addition to the straightforward interpretation, that things are turned upside-down. And the meanings multiply: "lily-white" is old slang for a chimney-sweep, "roarer" for a rioter or bully, but also for an erection (suggesting that the "boy" is the sexuality of a young child). Beggars are common in folk-tales and sayings too: they are "coming to town", and they could ride, if wishes were horses. I suspect "raffle" here is close to "rifle", to search through roughly and carelessly. Things fall apart. I think the general idea is clear enough, and you must too, since you didn't ask about it. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > p. 115 > ----- > > Re: As I Walked Out One Evening > > by W. H. Auden [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > possibly representing Jesus and John the Baptist, from an old song > often called "Green Grow the Rushes-O") It has another name? > is a roarer (old slang for > homosexual, according to the commentator), and Jill turns out to be an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > or bully, but also for an erection (suggesting that the "boy" is the > sexuality of a young child). I suspect the primary meaning is rioter or bully. As Auden printed a well-known poem in his anthology of light verse, The Gipsy Snap and Tedro Are none of Tom's comrados. The punk I scorn and the cutpurse sworn And the roaring boy's bravadoes. http://books.google.com/books?id=xPHJXJgPXEwC&pg=PA113 If Auden knew about the meanings "homosexual" and "erection", though (and he probably did), I'm sure he didn't object to the reader's thinking of them. > Beggars are common in folk-tales and > sayings too: they are "coming to town", and they could ride, if wishes > were horses. I suspect "raffle" here is close to "rifle", to search > through roughly and carelessly. I like Peter's suggestion that the beggar have banknotes to raffle off. > > 'Where the beggars raffle the banknotes > > And the Giant is enchanting to Jack, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > [...] > > p. 115 -- Jerry Friedman > > > Re: As I Walked Out One Evening > > > by W. H. Auden > > >http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15551 > > > 1. Any ideas/connotations about the "Roarer?" Any known (historical) > > > character? > > > 2. Also: > > > "And Jill goes down on her back." > > > Does this mean: > > > "And Jill is prostituting herself? > > > 3. Any connotations brought about by the "Giant?" > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > > And the Lily-white Boyis a Roarer, > > > And Jill goes down on her back. Great. Thank you all. Marius Hancu >>> Re: As I Walked Out One Evening >>> by W. H. Auden [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> possibly representing Jesus and John the Baptist, from an old song >> often called "Green Grow the Rushes-O") > It has another name? According to Wiki, Green Grow The Rushes, Ho (or O) (aka The Twelve Prophets, or The Carol Of The Twelve Numbers, or The Teaching Song, or The Dilly Song), is a folk song (Round #133) popular across the English speaking world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Grow_the_Rushes,_O According to me, there's another, very nice, version, recorded by the now-disbanded Newfoundland folk group /Figgy Duff/, called "The Ten Commandments". Soloist: Come and I will sing you. Chorus: What will you sing me? S: I will sing you one-oh. C: What will the one be? One, the One lived all alone, f'ever more shall be so, come and I will sing you. C: What will you sing me? and so on, through Two of them were lily-white babes, clothèd all in green-oh Three of them were drivers Four the gospel preachers (or "vestal creature"?) Five the [...] boys under the bush Six, the six bold wager Seven the seven stars under the sky Eight the Gabriel angels Nine, the bright-eyed shiners Ten, the Ten Commandments, with each cumulative response line going faster than the last, maybe because the soloist sings the list each time on one breath. >> is a roarer (old slang for >> homosexual, according to the commentator), and Jill turns out to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> rioter or bully, but also for an erection (suggesting that the >> "boy" is the sexuality of a young child). > I suspect the primary meaning is rioter or bully. As Auden printed > a well-known poem in his anthology of light verse, I suppose the lily-white boy represents an innocent either way. > The Gipsy Snap and Tedro > Are none of Tom's comrados. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (and he probably did), I'm sure he didn't object to the reader's > thinking of them. Yes, although there are more clues in the lines you quoted, of the kind of slang being used. >> Beggars are common in folk-tales and >> sayings too: they are "coming to town", and they could ride, if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I like Peter's suggestion that the beggar have banknotes to raffle > off. What do they buy with the proceeds? >>> 'Where the beggars raffle the banknotes >>> And the Giant is enchanting to Jack, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> [...] >>> p. 115 >> Re: As I Walked Out One Evening >> by W. H. Auden [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >were horses. I suspect "raffle" here is close to "rifle", to search >through roughly and carelessly. Or "raffle" is a variation on "riffle", which is what you do with your thumb on the end of a deck of cards or pack of money. >Things fall apart. I think the general idea is clear enough, and you >must too, since you didn't ask about it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> ----- > SignatureRich Ulrich >>> Re: As I Walked Out One Evening >>> by W. H. Auden >>> http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15551 [...] >> [...] Beggars are common in >> folk-tales and sayings too: they are "coming to town", and they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you do with your thumb on the end of a deck of > cards or pack of money. Agreed. I suspect "riffle" and that meaning of "rifle" are related. [...] >>> 'Where the beggars raffle the banknotes >>> And the Giant is enchanting to Jack, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>> p. 115 >>> ----- |
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