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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2009Cravat?
Hello: Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" If not, what are the names used? -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" > If not, what are the names used? Sorry, the link is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31LC_htB4E > > Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" > > If not, what are the names used? > > Sorry, the link is: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31LC_htB4E Also is he wearing "socks?" I think socks means shorter. >> > Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" >> > If not, what are the names used? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Also is he wearing "socks?" I think socks means shorter. Tights, I would think. If a sock is involved, it is stuffed in the front of his pants.  SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 07:45:48 -0700 (PDT), Marius Hancu > > <Marius.Ha...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" > >> > If not, what are the names used? Between Tony's suggestions, I prefer "neckerchief" to "bandanna", which I associate with rural America. > >> Sorry, the link is: > > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31LC_htB4E I'd say they're both pretty good. I had the sound off. I'm surprised how well it worked for me that way. > >Also is he wearing "socks?" I think socks means shorter. > > Tights, I would think. Indeed, but what they're supposed to be is something I'd call hose or stockings, not socks. > If a sock is involved, it is stuffed in the front of his pants. Ever cynical (but possibly right). Actually, an old meaning of "sock" is a light shoe worn by comic actors in antiquity, hence a conventional symbol for comedy, as opposed to "buskin" for tragedy (which I learned from footnotes to Milton's "L'Allegro" and "Il Penseroso", probably like many others). Maybe Kobborg's shoes are socks. -- Jerry Friedman > > >> > Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" > > >> > If not, what are the names used? > > Between Tony's suggestions, I prefer "neckerchief" to "bandanna", > which I associate with rural America. However, this was rural Italy:-) > > >> Sorry, the link is: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Indeed, but what they're supposed to be is something I'd call hose or > stockings, not socks. That's exactly what I thought they were called in period language. Thank you all. Marius Hancu >> Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" >> If not, what are the names used? > >Sorry, the link is: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31LC_htB4E Looks more like a bandanna or neckerchief to me. A "cravat" is a necktie and doesn't have that triangle of fabric at the back. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida > >> Is the male dancer (Kobborg) here wearing a "cravat?" > >> If not, what are the names used? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Looks more like a bandanna or neckerchief to me. A "cravat" is a > necktie and doesn't have that triangle of fabric at the back. Is that still used? I associate it with the Bertie Wooster age, Jan > Looks more like a bandanna or neckerchief to me. A "cravat" is a > necktie and doesn't have that triangle of fabric at the back. But British haberdashers sell (or used to sell) as a "cravat" a specially shaped silk scarf, to be worn inside the collar of an open-necked shirt, secured by a single overhad knot. This differed from both the standard necktie and a silk scarf wearable in any other way. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Looks more like a bandanna or neckerchief to me. A "cravat" is a >> necktie and doesn't have that triangle of fabric at the back. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >This differed from both the standard necktie and a silk >scarf wearable in any other way. Here is a typical British cravat as worn in the late 1950s. http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/we bupload/TSAWYER/LARGE/saffron-day-cravat.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tomsawyerwaist coats.co.uk/store/showitemCRAVAT-SAFFRON.aspx&usg=__RYbe2t40qRUerUlb50vxdyuvWPs= &h=351&w=400&sz=29&hl=en&start=8&tbnid=f4GaCXfl1XFGHM:&tbnh=109&tbnw=124&prev=/i mages%3Fq%3Dcravats%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den http://tinyurl.com/ksbyn2 It does not have a knot, is always under the shirt and has no flapping bits. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>> Looks more like a bandanna or neckerchief to me. A "cravat" is a >>> necktie and doesn't have that triangle of fabric at the back. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >It does not have a knot, is always under the shirt and has no flapping >bits. That is what many people incorrectly call an "ascot". The ascot is tied, whereas the cravat is not. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida Robin Bignall wrote... > Here is a typical British cravat as worn in the late 1950s. > http://tinyurl.com/ksbyn2 You make it sound as if they haven't been worn since. I have worn one on occasion (usually when a bare neck seems too casual and a tie too formal) ever since my first year at University in 1965. SignatureNoel > Robin Bignall wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > one on occasion (usually when a bare neck seems too casual and a tie > too formal) ever since my first year at University in 1965. The deal is, the number of occasions when a bare neck seems to casual has been in steady decline since about 1965. I am for some reason (not hard to find) reminded of my all-time favorite _dictée_: Le singe descend de l'homme C'est un homme sans cravate, sans chaussures, sans varices, sans polices, sans malice, sorte d'homme à quatre pattes qui n'a pas mangé la pomme. --Claude Roy Of course it's just a necktie there. I confess that I've been missing the point of it for forty years now, having thought the last line was "qui n'a pas mangé _de_ pomme" until I looked it up just a moment ago. "THE apple". Don't I know what _ther_ means? SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) > Robin Bignall wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > one on occasion (usually when a bare neck seems too casual and a tie > too formal) ever since my first year at University in 1965. One of the judges in the recent and hugely popular Australian version of the British "Master Chef"TV series is rarely seen without one. It's his trademark, apparently. He lives near me and I am reliably informed that he considers his cravat to be appropriate casual wear for his young son's soccer games. So that's two of you who still have a use for them that I know of now. http://media.thedaily.com.au/img/photos/2009/07/09/chef_lead_t350.jpg Ildhund wrote, in <h4nvt0$80r$1@news.eternal-september.org> on Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:52:19 +0100: > Robin Bignall wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > one on occasion (usually when a bare neck seems too casual and a tie > too formal) ever since my first year at University in 1965. I think I may have one somewhere, unworn since ca. 1970. SignatureNick Spalding BrE/IrE > Ildhund wrote, in <h4nvt0$80r$1@news.eternal-september.org> > on Tue, 28 Jul 2009 23:52:19 +0100: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I think I may have one somewhere, unworn since ca. 1970. I believe mine (acquired as a private tribute to Percy Dovetonsils) is stored in the same drawer as the knit turtleneck dickey (not the clown one; Family Feud host Richard Dawson, that one). SignatureFrank ess >Robin Bignall wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >one on occasion (usually when a bare neck seems too casual and a tie >too formal) ever since my first year at University in 1965. They seemed to be in fashion when I was in my late teens, and I wore one on occasions such as you describe. Then I went to university in London, found they seemed to have dropped out of fashion, and went bare necked like most others. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > Here is a typical British cravat as worn in the late 1950s.http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tomsawyerwaistcoa...http://t inyurl.com/ksbyn2 > > It does not have a knot, is always under the shirt and has no flapping > bits. Doesn't seem to be the one worn by the male lead in this ballet, though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31LC_htB4E How do you call _that_? Thanks. Marius Hancu Marius Hancu wrote... >> Here is a typical British cravat as worn in the late >> 1950s.http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tomsawyerwaistcoa...http://t inyurl.com/ksbyn2 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31LC_htB4E > How do you call _that_? I would call it a scarf or kerchief, or possibly neckerchief. I didn't watch long enough to establish whether it was just knotted in front or fastened with a woggle[1]. [1] There is probably another word for this, invented by a Boy Scout before 1923 according to http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs145003.pdf That document cites two sources using the word which both pre-date the OED's earliest quotation. Should we tell them? SignatureNoel >Marius Hancu wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >That document cites two sources using the word which both pre-date >the OED's earliest quotation. Should we tell them? Exactly. You took the words out of my mouth. The triangular piece at the back establishes its neckerchiefness. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > On Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:05:05 +0100, "Ildhund" <jn...@removemsn.com> > >>> Here is a typical British cravat as worn in the late > >>> 1950s.http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tomsawyerwaistcoa... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Exactly. You took the words out of my mouth. The triangular piece at > the back establishes its neckerchiefness. Glad to know that:-) Thank you all. Marius Hancu > >Marius Hancu wrote... > >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Exactly. You took the words out of my mouth. The triangular piece at > the back establishes its neckerchiefness. WIWAS (in the USA) we just called them "slides" or, more fully, "neckerchief slides". SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) |
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