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Discussion Groups / English Usage / August 2009I didn't know about this
Hello: I'd have expected to see "I haven't known about this" as this is BrE, and in BrE I think I know that the perfect present is more favored re situations leading to the present time (anyway, more than in AmE). ---- [Toomey belatedly learns about a party to his honor, on his birthday.] I said, sulkily, "I didn't know about this. Nobody told me." Anthony Burgess, Eathly Powers, p. 19 --- However, when I checked at Google Books: 767 on "didn't know about this" 21 on "haven't known about this" i.e. quite utter dominance of the first ("didn't know about this"). Thus, how is it in BrE and how do you think about when to use which? -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Thus, how is it in BrE and how do you think about when to use which? "I haven't known about this" is plain wrong except in some very limited circumstances (of which this is not one). You might hear "I hadn't known about this" but the version Burgess uses is pretty much standard.  SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > I said, sulkily, "I didn't know about this. Nobody told me." > "I haven't known about this" is plain wrong except in some very limited > circumstances (of which this is not one). I'd very much appreciate if you could show me several such circumstances and justify them. Thank you all. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > i.e. quite utter dominance of the first ("didn't know about this"). 351 for "hadn't known about this" SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > 351 for "hadn't known about this" Yup, Past Perfect works, as the time frame for learning about the party is closed and Past Perfect describes the period leading up to this point of closure... DC -- >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Thus, how is it in BrE and how do you think about when to use which? I don't think I would ever say "I haven't known about this". As far as I can see, this is because knowing is not an action you can complete, and to have done something is to have completed it. On the other hand, I would say "I haven't been told about this" about as often as "I wasn't told about this": in the latter case, there was a particular time when I might have been told, and wasn't; in the former, I could have been told at any time up to the present, but haven't. The only exception I can think of for "known" is where I might say "I don't know the past participle of "parco, parcere"*, but I'm sure that I have known it at some time in the past" - which again brings in the idea of completion. Katy *Before you all jump in, I do know it in fact, because it's one of those memorable ones - peperci. >>Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >was a particular time when I might have been told, and wasn't; in the former, I >could have been told at any time up to the present, but haven't. I was about to agree with you just adding that I could only imagine saying "I haven't known about this" in response to the oddly worded question "Have you known about this?". Then I realised that extending the sentence makes the construction non-clunky: "I haven't known about this for very long." SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [...] > The only exception I can think of for "known" is where I might say "I > don't know the past participle of "parco, parcere"*, but I'm sure [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > *Before you all jump in, I do know it in fact, because it's one of > those memorable ones - peperci. It's also one of those ones with a colloquial alternative: parsi. SignatureMike. > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Anthony Burgess, Eathly Powers, p. 19 > --- Well... it's not really present time any more, as the time frame in which Toomey *might* have learnt about the party finished at the moment he found out about it, which is now in past, closed time. At a conference I went to recently one of the speakers said that usage of the Present Perfect was unteachable. I'm inclined to agree... DC -- > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Anthony Burgess, Eathly Powers, p. 19 > --- The point is, he knows *now*. The state of not-knowing is over. If the state of not knowing continues, you can say something like "I have never known the difference between A and B. (I still don't.)" You might as well say "I never know the difference between..." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > The point is, he knows *now*. The state of not-knowing is over. > > If the state of not knowing continues, you can say something like "I > have never known the difference between A and B. (I still don't.)" You > might as well say "I never know the difference between..." That too, very useful. Thanks, Donna. Marius Hancu |
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