Hello:
Am I right in assuming that the "was" is replaceable by "were" in the
following (there's already a "were" in there)? Presumably writer's
choice, to inject more informality and variety.
----
If Beethoven's Fifth was not played by an orchestra and all the
printed and manuscript copies of the music were destroyed by fire, we
wouldn't be right in saying that the work doesn't exist any more.
Anthony Burgess, Earthly Powers, p. 517
---
--
Thanks.
Marius Hancu
the Omrud - 30 Sep 2009 14:14 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> printed and manuscript copies of the music were destroyed by fire, we
> wouldn't be right in saying that the work doesn't exist any more.
No, I don't think so. The first phrase means "if B-5 had never been
played by an orchestra". The conditional "were" makes it sound like it
might have been played by some other group.

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David
Donna Richoux - 30 Sep 2009 15:38 GMT
> Am I right in assuming that the "was" is replaceable by "were" in the
> following (there's already a "were" in there)? Presumably writer's
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> ---
> --
Depends on what he means, and I'm not sure. Is it, "If Beethoven's Fifth
were never to be played again by an orchestra, and all copies were
destroyed by fire, we could still say the the work exists"?
Did he forgot to discuss recordings, or did that come next?
Is he trying to make a point like, say, no one remembers nor can
reconstruct the triumphal march of some ancient Egyptian pharaoh? Memory
and written symbols (and sound-making technology) ultimately fail. Or is
he arguing the opposite? It "exists" in some nebulous way, even with the
lack of all evidence?
But anyway, your question about "were" -- no, so far I don't think this
is one of those simple cases where "was" could be "were."

Signature
Best -- Donna Richoux
Marius Hancu - 30 Sep 2009 20:28 GMT
> > Am I right in assuming that the "was" is replaceable by "were" in the
> > following (there's already a "were" in there)? Presumably writer's
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> But anyway, your question about "were" -- no, so far I don't think this
> is one of those simple cases where "was" could be "were."
Well, let's assume it would read:
---
If AT PRESENT Beethoven's Fifth WERE not played by ANY orchestra
ANYWHERE and all the
printed and manuscript copies of the music HAD BEEN/WERE destroyed by
fire, we
WOULDN'T be right in saying that the work doesn't exist any more.
---
I prefer "had been destroyed" instead of "were destroyed," BTW, as the
action of destroying of the books would precede the consideration of
the situation. Just more clarity in tenses (and I think this is what
Peter Moylan had in mind too).
Also, I included "at present" just to make sure we're talking about a
hypothetical present time (which is indicated anyway by "we wouldn't
be." Not that it would be necessary.
Would you have any objections to it?
Thank you all.
Marius Hancu
Peter Moylan - 30 Sep 2009 16:38 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Anthony Burgess, Earthly Powers, p. 517
Burgess's grammar is questionable here. The "was" is a poor choice of
tense. If he had intended to use a hypothetical here, he should have
written "had never been played", which is more explicitly subjunctive.
Remark: older references say that the "conditional mood" is the right
thing to use in "if" clauses. Nowadays that mood doesn't exist, and we
are confined to a choice of two moods: indicative or subjunctive. In
practice it doesn't matter, because every verb - including even the
higher irregular "to be" - has the same form in the conditional and
subjunctive moods. Nevertheless I would prefer to restore the old
multiple-mood model. Maybe it doesn't make a difference in terms of
conjugation, but we who utter those sentences know what mood we're in
when we say something.

Signature
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.