 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / October 2009Entertaining headline
I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: "I almost quit cooking after my father died, says masterchef". I see it's on the web as well: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23759982-i-almost-quit-cooking-af ter-my-father-died-says-masterchef.do  SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I see it's on the web as well: >http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23759982-i-almost-quit-cooking-af ter-my-father-died-says-masterchef.do I viewed the final eight-days-worth of programmes of that competition. As well as fine food for the judges the show provided AUE fodder in the form of multiple variant pronunciations of "Michelin". Background: The Michelin Restaurant Guide awards Stars to the very best outstanding restaurants, *, ** or ***. When commenting on the food produced by the chefs in the Masterchef Professional competition the judges made frequent mention of whether a dish did or did not reach the standard expected for a Michelin-Starred restaurant. There seemed to be four main pronunciations of "Michelin". "Mich" could be "mitch" or "mish", and "in" had either the French sound or the English sound rhyming with "sin" or "bin" (in which some failed culinary attempts were seen to be hurled). Interestingly, the most English pronunciation of "Michelin" was that by one of the two judges, Michel Roux Jr. Although English-born he has worked and trained in France. His English is not French-accented. I'd not be surprised if his French is perfect and not English-accented. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Roux,_Jr. Incidentally, some years ago I was on a plane from somewhere to someotherwhere and flicked through the pages of the in-flight magazine. There was an interview with Michel Roux Jr's father, Albert Roux ("legendary French chef working in Britain"). One of the questions he was asked was which language he preferred, French or English. He said that he preferred English for business conversations, for example discussions with suppliers about what ingredients they would deliver to his restaurant that day. It seemed that the difference was not in the languages as such but in the customary conversational styles. He said that a conversation in French would leave him feeling that he had had a satisfying experience but that five minutes later he could not remember precisely what had been agreed. More importantly, there was a nagging uncertainty as to whether the supplier would recall what had been agreed either. In contrast, a business conversation in English would be much more prosaic but would not leave the same doubts. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > There seemed to be four main pronunciations of "Michelin". Michelin had/has a tyre factory in Stoke-on-Trent, where I grew up. It was one of the city's biggest employers. It was universally know as 'the Mitch'. Some time in the 1970's the telephonists were told to adopt the French pronunciation and 'Hello Mitcherlinn' suddenly became 'Hello Meeshlan' much to everyone's confusion. 24 Oct 2009 13:22:05 GMT from Derek Turner <frderek@cesmail.net>: > > There seemed to be four main pronunciations of "Michelin". > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > French pronunciation and 'Hello Mitcherlinn' suddenly became 'Hello > Meeshlan' much to everyone's confusion. I haven't seen a Michelin ad on TV or heard one on radio in some time, but if I recall correctly it was pronounced MISH-(schwa)-lin. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > from Derek Turner: >>> There seemed to be four main pronunciations of "Michelin". >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I haven't seen a Michelin ad on TV or heard one on radio in some > time, but if I recall correctly it was pronounced MISH-(schwa)-lin. I've seen quite a few on TV lately, and yes, I agree with the pronunciation you indicate. SignatureSkitt (in SF Bay Area) http://home.comcast.net/~skitt99/ >24 Oct 2009 13:22:05 GMT from Derek Turner <frderek@cesmail.net>: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I haven't seen a Michelin ad on TV or heard one on radio in some >time, but if I recall correctly it was pronounced MISH-(schwa)-lin. Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. >>24 Oct 2009 13:22:05 GMT from Derek Turner <frderek@cesmail.net>: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. International businesses often "localise" the pronunciation of their names. That means that the names may have different pronunciations in different territories. If people in a particular territory naturally use a pronunciation different from that in the native language of the name then the one used by the local people will be adopted. A company trying to sell products will not want to antagonise prospective purchasers by getting into an argument with them about pronunciation. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>24 Oct 2009 13:22:05 GMT from Derek Turner <frderek@cesmail.net>: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >prospective purchasers by getting into an argument with them about >pronunciation. Audi went from "ordi" to "owdi" without antagonizing too many people, and how many people say "wurner von brawn"? >>>>24 Oct 2009 13:22:05 GMT from Derek Turner <frderek@cesmail.net>: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Audi went from "ordi" to "owdi" without antagonizing too many people, It did. I owned a couple of them (sequentially) before that change took place. Audis were increasingly not built for the mass-market, so a manageable but exotically foreign sounding name might even have helped sales. >and how many people say "wurner von brawn"? I don't know, perhaps a few who see his name but have never heard of him. His name does not come up in conversation much and he was not a mass-market product. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) BrE filted: >>and how many people say "wurner von brawn"? > >I don't know, perhaps a few who see his name but have never heard of >him. His name does not come up in conversation much and he was not a >mass-market product. He's not the best example for this phenomenon...how do you pronounce "Niklaus Wirth"?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > BrE filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > He's not the best example for this phenomenon...how do you pronounce > "Niklaus Wirth"?...r Oh! Oh! Please, sir! I know! You can call him by name, or you can call him by value. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) >>and how many people say "wurner von brawn"? > > I don't know, perhaps a few who see his name but have never heard of > him. His name does not come up in conversation much and he was not a > mass-market product. Tom Lehrer rhymed it with "frown", "renown", & "down". Whether he went so far as to pronounce the W as a spirant, I haven't noticed. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: If you can keep your head while all about you are losing :|| ||: theirs, you don't appreciate the gravity of the situation. :|| Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:42:49 -0400 from Joe Fineman <joe_f@verizon.net>: > >>and how many people say "wurner von brawn"? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Tom Lehrer rhymed it with "frown", "renown", & "down". Whether he > went so far as to pronounce the W as a spirant, I haven't noticed. If you mean his first name, it was VARE-n'r. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:42:49 -0400 from Joe Fineman <joe_f@verizon.net>: >> Tom Lehrer rhymed it with "frown", "renown", & "down". Whether he >> went so far as to pronounce the W as a spirant, I haven't noticed. > > If you mean his first name, it was VARE-n'r. But the German W is not an exact equivalent of the English V (or the English W). It is pronounced by putting the lower lip, not against the upper teeth, but close enough to the upper lip to get a buzz. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Whom the gods wish to destroy they first call promising. :|| Sun, 25 Oct 2009 07:26:40 GMT from Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com>: > >I haven't seen a Michelin ad on TV or heard one on radio in some > >time, but if I recall correctly it was pronounced MISH-(schwa)-lin. > > Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. Seems to me that since the client is paying for the ad, the way the brand or product is pronounced is the way the client wants it pronounced. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... Stan Brown filted: >Sun, 25 Oct 2009 07:26:40 GMT from Bob Martin ><bob.martin@excite.com>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >brand or product is pronounced is the way the client wants it >pronounced. Good luck at this late date repairing the damage done to "Nissan"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. Given that Braun is a Gillette^WProcter & Gamble brand, I certainly wouldn't expect them to pronounce it the German way.... -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >>Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their >>ads. > > Given that Braun is a Gillette^WProcter & Gamble brand, I certainly > wouldn't expect them to pronounce it the German way.... Braun was originally a German firm and was taken over by Gillette in 1967: <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braun_GmbH> and <http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Braun-GmbH-Company-History.html> <http://tinyurl.com/ylnrxwg> SignatureLes (BrE) > Given that Braun is a Gillette--Procter & Gamble brand, I certainly > wouldn't expect them to pronounce it the German way.... Indeed, even the Germans, when they sell Volkswagens in the U.S., pronounce the name our way. (Very sensible, but for some reason it grates on me. To avoid it, I am willing to spend the extra syllable & make it VW.) Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: C = W log(1 + S/N): No information transfer without energy :|| ||: transfer. :|| >> Given that Braun is a Gillette--Procter & Gamble brand, I certainly >> wouldn't expect them to pronounce it the German way.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > grates on me. To avoid it, I am willing to spend the extra syllable & > make it VW.) And how do you pronounce that? SignatureLes (BrE) > Joe Fineman wrote: >>> Given that Braun is a Gillette--Procter & Gamble brand, I certainly >>> wouldn't expect them to pronounce it the German way.... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And how do you pronounce that? Fau veh? ;-) SignatureSkitt (AmE) > >>>> Given that Braun is a Gillette--Procter & Gamble brand, I certainly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Fau veh? ;-) Far - fig - noo - gun. SignatureRoland Hutchinson He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba," ... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy. --Newark (NJ) Star Ledger ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ ) Roland Hutchinson filted: >> >>>>> Given that Braun is a Gillette--Procter & Gamble brand, I certainly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Far - fig - noo - gun. HER-bee....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> Joe Fineman wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fau veh? ;-) Oy. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Nothing human ever works the way it is supposed to. :|| >>> Joe Fineman wrote: >>>>> Given that Braun is a Gillette--Procter & Gamble brand, I certainly [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Oy. Only in Finland. In the USA it's Inc. SignatureJames >>Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. > >Given that Braun is a Gillette^WProcter & Gamble brand, I certainly >wouldn't expect them to pronounce it the German way.... I was referring to ads on UK TV - in the US all bets are off. Stan Brown: >> I haven't seen a Michelin ad on TV or heard one on radio in some >> time, but if I recall correctly it was pronounced MISH-(schwa)-lin. Bob Martin: > Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. Ads are the definitive source. If you thought Braun was pronounced "brown" (as I would too), but the ads have it "Braun", *you* were wrong. This also means that the correct pronunciation may vary from time to time, or from country to country. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "If gravity stops working, a power cut is msb@vex.net | the least of your problems." -- David Bell > >24 Oct 2009 13:22:05 GMT from Derek Turner <frderek@cesmail.net>: > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ads are not a reliable source - Braun is pronounced "brawn" in their ads. Non-sequitur. "Braun" is a German word, not English. > I haven't seen a Michelin ad on TV or heard one on radio in some > time, but if I recall correctly it was pronounced MISH-(schwa)-lin. Perhaps, in the U.S., "Michigan" gave the pattern. Tho I have seen the name "Michelin" in print since childhood, I can't recall ever hearing or saying it. I imagine that, if called upon, I would use some approximation of the French pronunciation -- and, conceivably, my interlocutor would not notice, because the unstressed syllables are pretty obscure. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: If you pray to God to smite your enemies, Satan is your :|| ||: god. :|| >>I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >>Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I viewed the final eight-days-worth of programmes of that competition. I saw a few days' worth during a recent visit to England. I could not suppress my hilarity at the prevailing atmosphere, which IMO was more appropriate for preparing a nuclear submarine for battle than for dishing up a few plates of nosh for people who had risen above the world of sausage, egg, spam and chips. [...] SignatureLes (BrE) >>>I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >>>Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >up a few plates of nosh for people who had risen above the world of >sausage, egg, spam and chips. Cooking DOESN'T get BETTER than THIS! Or, for the amateur version, Cooking DOESN'T get TOUGHER than THIS! On 24 Oct, 12:41, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > Incidentally, some years ago I was on a plane from somewhere to > someotherwhere and flicked through the pages of the in-flight magazine. > There was an interview with Michel Roux Jr's father, Albert Roux > ("legendary French chef working in Britain"). Michel Roux Jr's father is Michel Roux Sr; Albert Roux is his uncle. >On 24 Oct, 12:41, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Michel Roux Jr's father is Michel Roux Sr; Albert Roux is his uncle. Perhaps you should inform Michel Jr. He thinks Albert is his dad. Click on Biography here: http://www.michelroux.co.uk/ Michel Roux Sr. has a son, Alain, who runs the Waterside: http://www.waterside-inn.co.uk/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>On 24 Oct, 12:41, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> >>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Click on Biography here: >http://www.michelroux.co.uk/ And Albert thinks Michel Jr is his son. See Biography>Le Gavroche>second page: http://www.albertroux.co.uk/ In 1988 Albert's son Michel Roux Jr joined Albert at Le Gavroche. >Michel Roux Sr. has a son, Alain, who runs the Waterside: >http://www.waterside-inn.co.uk/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening > Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: > > "I almost quit cooking after my father died, says masterchef". I don't get it. In what way does it not mean what it says? Are you suggesting that it says that the father died from the chef's cooking? SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >> I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >> Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are you suggesting that it says that the father died from the chef's > cooking? That is exactly how I read it. I agree saying it "said" it was perhaps a bit strong. "I stopped gambling after I lost all my money", "I stopped drinking after I crashed my car", "I stopped cooking after my father died" - they form a set. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>> I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >>> Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stopped drinking after I crashed my car", "I stopped cooking after my > father died" - they form a set. Yes, but none of them actually imply cause and effect, merely a sequence of events. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. >>>> I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >>>> Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Yes, but none of them actually imply cause and effect, merely a sequence > of events. They do not specifically state the existence of cause and effect, but the first two examples certainly imply it because the existence of cause and effect derives logically from the content. Although the third example has the same structure, it pulls the reader up short because nobody (or almost nobody) cooks that badly, and because a masterchef who had accidentally (or deliberately) poisoned his or her father would be unlikely to express the fact in the form of a stand-up comedian's one-liner. SignatureLes (BrE) >>>>> I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening >>>>> Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > first two examples certainly imply it because the existence of cause and > effect derives logically from the content. If you interpret the statements literally, as I do, you should not make such an inference. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. [...] >>> Yes, but none of them actually imply cause and effect, merely a >>> sequence of events. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you interpret the statements literally, as I do, you should not make > such an inference. If you really do interpret all statements literally, you'll be missing rather a lot of what is going on. Did you ever take a Turing test? SignatureLes (BrE) > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you really do interpret all statements literally, you'll be missing > rather a lot of what is going on. Did you ever take a Turing test? No, I'm not a machine, but as a retired programmer, I sometimes "think" like one. SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. Nick skrev: > That is exactly how I read it. I agree saying it "said" it was perhaps > a bit strong. "I stopped gambling after I lost all my money", "I > stopped drinking after I crashed my car", "I stopped cooking after my > father died" - they form a set. I stopped reading after I saw your posting. SignatureBertel, Denmark Nick Atty: > > That is exactly how I read it. I agree saying it "said" it was perhaps > > a bit strong. "I stopped gambling after I lost all my money", "I > > stopped drinking after I crashed my car", "I stopped cooking after my > > father died" - they form a set. Bertel Hansen: > I stopped reading after I saw your posting. World War II happened after they let women have the vote. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | In the affairs of this world men are saved, msb@vex.net | not by faith, but by the want of it. --Franklin Sun, 25 Oct 2009 07:56:18 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary- address.org.uk>: > >> I had to read the article below this headline in yesterday's Evening > >> Standard just to make sure it didn't mean what it said: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > stopped drinking after I crashed my car", "I stopped cooking after my > father died" - they form a set. I can't agree. The first two are quite likely cause and effect; the third is quite *unlikely* When I read the sentence upthread my immediate reaction was "oh, he was too sad at his recent loss to cook any more". People often abandon familiar activities out of grief, and I don't see anything in the quoted sentence to indicate guilt. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Sun, 25 Oct 2009 07:56:18 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary- > address.org.uk>: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > any more". People often abandon familiar activities out of grief, > and I don't see anything in the quoted sentence to indicate guilt. Innit lucky not eveyones' brains work the same way? SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >> Sun, 25 Oct 2009 07:56:18 +0000 from Nick <3-nospam@temporary- >> address.org.uk>: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Innit lucky not eveyones' brains work the same way? Boy, I'll say! What a world it would be if everyone read it as I did: the masterchef was in a stew and almost got out when his father died. (Is he still in there, bubbling away?) SignatureFrank ess |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.