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Discussion Groups / English Usage / October 2009Kafka: now then
Hello: What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see you now then ?" Does it show impatience? --- [Gregor's sick and someone is sent over from his job to check up on him.] "Can the chief clerk come in to see you now then ?", asked his father impatiently, knocking at the door again. "No", said Gregor. In the room on his right there followed a painful silence; in the room on his left his sister began to cry. Kafka, Metamorphosis Tr. David Wyllie --- -- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > room on his right there followed a painful silence; in the room on his > left his sister began to cry. In this context, "then" indicates something like "in that case" or "hence". But not quite. - Shall I buy some milk then? - Where are you going for your holiday then? - I'll see you tomorrow then. - It was a badger you saw then. I'm very tempted to put a comma before "then" in each case, but I don't quite like it enough to commit. Also, I feel a difference between my first two and last two examples; in the last two, "then" can clearly be replaced with "in that case", but in the first two it can't.  SignatureDavid >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >In this context, "then" indicates something like "in that case" or >"hence". But not quite. OED says: then, adv. (conj., a., n.) 5. (As a particle of inference, often unemphatic or enclitic.) That being the case; since that is so; on that account; therefore, consequently, as may be inferred; >- Shall I buy some milk then? >- Where are you going for your holiday then? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >first two and last two examples; in the last two, "then" can clearly be >replaced with "in that case", but in the first two it can't. That depends how you approach it. A: We've got visitors coming for a "coffee morning" tomorrow. B: Shall I buy some milk then? A: Money is a bit tight at the moment so we won't be going to Thailand as we usually do. B: Where are you going for your holiday then? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > I'm very tempted to put a comma before "then" in each case, but I don't > quite like it enough to commit. Mrs. Petty would insist on it. Consider the sense of "at that time" and you may see more reason to set it off when it means "consequently": You said you wanted cereal. Shall I buy some milk, then? I can't get to the store until tomorrow. Shall I buy some milk then? ¬R Marius Hancu: > > What's the role of > > "now then" > > in > > "Can the chief clerk come in to see you now then ?" "David": > In this context, "then" indicates something like "in that case" or > "hence". But not quite. I'd say it's pretty much equivalent to "so", except that with "so" you use it before the rest of the clause instead of after. > - Shall I buy some milk then? > - Where are you going for your holiday then? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm very tempted to put a comma before "then" in each case, but I don't > quite like it enough to commit. As far as I'm concerned, all five sentences are wrong and need to have the comma added. If "then" means "at that time", *then* it's correct to not use a comma. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto Carpe pecuniam! msb@vex.net --Roger L. Smith > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Kafka, Metamorphosis Tr. David Wyllie The German original has: "Also kann der Herr Prokurist schon zu dir hinein?" The translator has justifiably rendered "schon" as "now" and "also" as "then" and has put them together at the end of the sentence. It's a faithful and idiomatic translation, IMO. "Then" means roughly "in that case", as Peter says. SignatureJames > > What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see > > you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > faithful and idiomatic translation, IMO. "Then" means roughly "in that > case", as Peter says. Right, but many times "Now then, ... " at a beginning of sentence seems to show impatience to me. Thank you all. Marius Hancu >> > What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see >> > you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >at a beginning of sentence seems to show impatience to me. Yes. That is a different use in which "now then" is a phrase, a unit, rather than two words that are adjacent by chance. OED: now, adv., conj., n.1, and adj. 5. a. In sentences expressing a command or request, or in a question, giving any of various tones (exclaiming, reproving, soothing, etc.). Also used without verb, or with verb implied. --> b. Similarly "now then". Freq. used to introduce a command, or as a mild reproof. .... 1897 J. CONRAD Nigger of Narcissus iii. 59 Now then, Mr. Baker, get the men along. What's the matter with them? 1954 I. MURDOCH Under Net (1960) 152 The police barred my way... Now then! said one of them. 1991 J. CARTWRIGHT To 3 Oh dear, are you all right, love? He wants to take the weight off his feet, I keep telling him. Now then, two whiskeys. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On Oct 28, 10:52 am, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >> > What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see > >> > you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > --> b. Similarly "now then". Freq. used to introduce a command, or as a > mild reproof. Great. > .... > 1897 J. CONRAD Nigger of ‘Narcissus’ iii. 59 Now then, Mr. Baker, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to take the weight off his feet, I keep telling him. Now then, two > whiskeys. Thanks. Marius Hancu >>> What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see >>> you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > at a beginning of sentence seems to show impatience to me. My FIL (West Yorkshire) greets one with the words, "Now then!". He answers the phone in the same way, if he knows who he is speaking to. SignatureDavid >>>> What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see >>>> you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > My FIL (West Yorkshire) greets one with the words, "Now then!". He > answers the phone in the same way, if he knows who he is speaking to. It means much the same as "Aye up", IMNO. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu >>>>> What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see >>>>> you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >It means much the same as "Aye up", IMNO. It depends on how you say "eyup". There are probably as many meanings for it as there are for "forgedaboudit" in Donny Brasco. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:06:35 +0000, Nick > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It depends on how you say "eyup". There are probably as many meanings > for it as there are for "forgedaboudit" in Donny Brasco. Yes, but could anyone give me a clue about "Aye up's" meaning?:-) Marius Hancu >> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:06:35 +0000, Nick >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Yes, but could anyone give me a clue about "Aye up's" meaning?:-) Depends on how you stress it. Lightly: eyup lad -- hello, how are you. Menacingly: eyup, WTF are you doing to my car? Puzzingly: eyup, I've never seen one of those doing that before. As an alarm call: eyup lads, run for it, here's the coppers. etc. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > > What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see > > you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > faithful and idiomatic translation, IMO. "Then" means roughly "in that > case", as Peter says. To me, it shows, "In that case, can Herr Prokurist already enter your room? or more impatient: "Listen, can Herr Prokurist enter your room now? Marius Hancu >>> What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see >>> you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > or more impatient: > "Listen, can Herr Prokurist enter your room now? There is certainly more than a hint of exasperation in this case. SignatureJames >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > faithful and idiomatic translation, IMO. "Then" means roughly "in that > case", as Peter says. Another rendering which (IMO) works well is: [quote] "Well, can the chief clerk come in now?" asked Gregor?s father impatiently, again knocking on the door. [endquote] <http://www.kafka-franz.com/metamorphosis.htm> And what about: "So, can the chief clerk come in now?" or (comma-less) "So can the chief clerk come in now?" or even: "So can the chief clerk come in already?" although the last version is not really acceptable despite "already" being one of the standard translations of "schon". "Prokurist" is a problem word with no really satisfactory 1:1 translation into English. It refers to a "person with commercial power of attorney" and is often left as Prokurist in an English translation, followed by the explanation/definition in parentheses. "Chief clerk" is often given as a translation in dictionaries and this is acceptable in a piece of fiction; but in a document in which the function of the Prokurist is relevant, "chief clerk" would not be sufficiently precise. SignatureLes (BrE) > >> What's the role of "now then" in "Can the chief clerk come in to see > >> you now then ?" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > impatiently, again knocking on the door. > [endquote] Seems reasonable, and "well" can as well as "now, then," as far as I know, express impatience too. > <http://www.kafka-franz.com/metamorphosis.htm> > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > but in a document in which the function of the Prokurist is > relevant, "chief clerk" would not be sufficiently precise. I could bet there was something like this with all the ranks/titles involved in the two languages:-) Marius Hancu |
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