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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2009"Gotten" in NZEng?
Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend profile piece, purportedly written by a New Zealand TV sports announcer in her early 40 -- a (roller) speed-skater who, from the text, was clearly born, raised, and has lived her life in NZ. My NZ-born wife certainly didn't grow up using "gotten", so has it been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but can't tell where the writers come from.)  SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy > things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but > can't tell where the writers come from.) It's reasonably common here (NZ), but not standard. On 24 Nov 2009, Fred wrote >> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few >> AUE-worthy things over there. One of them was the use of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It's reasonably common here (NZ), but not standard. Thanks; it rather confused me. (I've heard tell that it's appearing in BrE, but I've not personally seen it outside of language discussions or obvious imports; I guess it's a bit further lodged in NZ than here.) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy > things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but > can't tell where the writers come from.) I can't answer for NZ, but I can testify that "gotten" is now common in Australia, despite being a mark of illiteracy in my youth. I blame it on the fact that 70% of our newspapers are owned by an American. "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it myself. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy >> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it myself. I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten". SignatureLong-time resident of Adelaide, South Australia, which may or may not influence my opinions. [...] > I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten". In AmEng there is something of a distinction between "got" and "gotten", with the latter usually signifying the result of a process: I've gotten two tickets for tonight's show. [I have reached this state.] I've got two tickets for tonight's show. [I am in this state. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I've got two tickets for tonight's show. [I am in this state. This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get". SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my >school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through >hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time >I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get". Your teachers and mine must have gone to the same school. And for a long time I thought the same. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my >>school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Your teachers and mine must have gone to the same school. And for a long time >I thought the same. Schoolteachers back in the day thought that using "get" all the time was a bit vulgar. (Yes, even on the mean streets we ordinary people had come across the notion of vulgarity.) Thus, "I got up in the morning and got my breakfast and then got my bike but got a puncture and then got the cane for being late and got a late lunch...." would get some red ink through it. But it was how most kids spoke. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my >>>school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >and then got the cane for being late and got a late lunch...." would >get some red ink through it. But it was how most kids spoke. I speculated in this ng some time ago that the effect of, and possibly a motivation for, the ban on "get" was to expand the vocabulary of the kids. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>This second example - saying "I've got" to mean "I have" - caused my >>>>school teachers to tell us "Never say 'got'". I know this only through [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >motivation for, the ban on "get" was to expand the vocabulary of the >kids. Well of course, but when their parents, relatives, friends and most people they meet speak like that many (most?) of them don't have the impetus to try. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England I had a British English teacher for two or three years. He identified "Got" as the main one that is a problem -- said it was not a word. There is Jean Chretien's famously awkward "It is getting [to be] a joke". If it were typical English to use "becoming" in place of three words, then a word that can also serve as a synonym for "received" would not be a problem in print, too. Bottom line is that if you can avoid it in print (outside of quotations, of course), then do so. _______ Barium: What you do if CPR fails. >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hindsight, because the reason was never explained to us. For a long time > I thought there was a blanket ban on the verb "get". There was (in my school in England). We weren't allowed to write "It was getting dark". SignatureRob Bannister >>> [...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > There was (in my school in England). We weren't allowed to write "It was > getting dark". "Darkness was gathering" is another way. "My space was gaining darkness" is more literal. >>>> [...] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "Darkness was gathering" is another way. > "My space was gaining darkness" is more literal. Certainly. We quickly learned all the synonyms, but we still didn't get it. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy >>> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >I'm still resisting. I've never liked "gotten". Better burn all the KJV Bibles then. While that is in print outside the US, "gotten" will be gone but not forgot. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy >> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Australia, despite being a mark of illiteracy in my youth. I blame it on > the fact that 70% of our newspapers are owned by an American. I don't think that's the reason, since I doubt that many of our youths read newspapers. However, I suspect the answer lies with the most popular TV programmes, which are mainly American or run by young people who imitate Americanisms. > "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it myself. I hear "gotten" more and more, but have not yet been tempted. SignatureRob Bannister >> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy >> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > "Blame" is perhaps the wrong word. I've gotten used to using it > myself. I think "gotten" has been around at some level for a long time in AusE despite the efforts of teachers. I can remember hearing it from quite old people who must have been born ca 1900. It seems to be a distinct minority who say it and nobody else uses it at all. Perhaps a family thing, and I thought it maight be families from Irish stock, but maybe not. Maybe it came over during the gold rush. In the SETIS database I see it used back to the 1840s, and later from writers such as Rolf Bodrewood and Henry Handel Richardson. See if this link works: http://tinyurl.com/yk5wl85 points to: http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/pubotbin/ot2www-ozlit?specfile=%2Fusr%2Fot%2Fww w%2Fozlit%2Fozlitbin%2Fozlit.o2w&query=gotten&docs=TEXT&auth=&title=&begin_year= &end_year=&sample=1-100&grouping=match Perhaps it is similar in NZ. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few >>> AUE-worthy things over there. One of them was the use of [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > http://tinyurl.com/yk5wl85 points to: > http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/pubotbin/ot2www-ozlit?specfile=%2Fusr%2Fot%2Fww w%2Fozlit%2Fozlitbin%2Fozlit.o2w&query=gotten&docs=TEXT&auth=&title=&begin_year= &end_year=&sample=1-100&grouping=match The link works. Good site. The opposition to "gotten" is interesting. It's hardly fair to condemn it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. What arguments do opponents use? I have never used it and never will, and it wasn't a problem in my school days when American films hadn't begun to exert any great influence on our language. The teacher was busy enough correcting other analogous en-less past participles, telling us we couldn't say "he has hid", "she has forgot", "it has froze". SignatureJames > The link works. Good site. > The opposition to "gotten" is interesting. It's hardly fair to condemn > it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. What arguments do > opponents use? The argument seems to be that it is an Americanism. This is generally considered damning enough by those who object to it. In truth it is preserved from a time before British and American dialects parted company. Perhaps it is still found in British English, preserved in cliches as a fly in amber ('ill-gotten gains' ?). The English-speaking folks who settled in the Antipodes spoke British dialects identical with those spoken by many of the first English-speaking Americans, so it would not be too surprising that the oldest living Australians remember that the oldest living Australians they knew used the word that is preserved in American usage. I rather fancy "got" and use it often, but "gotten" is not a corrupt Yankee innovation. My real battles about "get" involve its uses as a copula and as an auxilary verb. > I have never used it and never will, and it wasn't a problem in my school > days when American films hadn't begun to exert any great influence on our > language. The teacher was busy enough correcting other analogous en-less > past participles, telling us we couldn't say "he has hid", "she has > forgot", "it has froze". SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5931, 1993 309 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term. Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't. >> The link works. Good site. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >innovation. My real battles about "get" involve its uses as a copula and >as an auxilary verb. As I noted in another message, "gotten" was part of 17th-century insular English, and found its way into the King James Bible. It may sound a little old fashioned to non-American ears (as does "pitcher"), but it's certainly not non-standard. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk On 26 Nov 2009, James Hogg wrote >>>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few >>>> AUE-worthy things over there. One of them was the use of [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > condemn it as illiterate when every literate American uses it. > What arguments do opponents use? I don't think there's ever been a reasoned argument against it on those grounds, has there? AFAIK, the only objections are based on deductive reasoning from a position of personal ignorance: "It sounds funny to me/I've never encountered it/We don't use it where I come from; therefore it must be substandard and illiterate". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed >>>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy >>>> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > other analogous en-less past participles, telling us we couldn't say "he > has hid", "she has forgot", "it has froze". I think it has to do with centrality of substitutes. A ban on "got" is similar to banning "set", which has about thirty meanings, or particular meanings of "set". The problem is that "got" is replacing core language; filling in for about three choices of verb that are better, because they are not idiom. >>>> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy >>>> things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > other analogous en-less past participles, telling us we couldn't say "he > has hid", "she has forgot", "it has froze". The funny part about that is that many well-known nineteenth century writers use exactly that style. I've often wondered whether that was the time when "gotten" dropped out of non-American English. SignatureRob Bannister >> I think "gotten" has been around at some level for a long time in >> AusE despite the efforts of teachers. I can remember hearing it from [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > correcting other analogous en-less past participles, telling us we > couldn't say "he has hid", "she has forgot", "it has froze". It is something that teachers would red-line in essays and correct in speech. I don't think I ever heard a reasoned argument against it, and I'm not sure how actively it is still discouraged these days. If it isn't, that might account for part of the increase in usage, reinforced by film and television from the US. My guess is that it became deprecated about the time of free universal education, when there was a trend to try to standardise the language. It was probably seen as a remnant of non-standard dialects, whereas the model was south-eastern England and RP. So it was something of a shibboleth like pronouncing the letter 'h' as haitch. Although logically I rather like 'gotten', I don't use it myself simply because it doesn't naturally occur to me to say it. It seems to be a word that you have to acquire at a fairly early age, and that's why I suspect the usage tends to run in families. Since the OP in this thread was about NZE, I wonder if the strong Scottish influence especially in the South Island included some 'gotten' users, and it was similarly discouraged there. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > I think "gotten" has been around at some level for a long time in AusE > despite the efforts of teachers. I can remember hearing it from quite [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > http://tinyurl.com/yk5wl85 > points to: http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/pubotbin/ot2www-ozlit?specfile=%2Fusr%2 Fot%2Fwww%2Fozlit%2Fozlitbin%2Fozlit.o2w&query=gotten&docs=TEXT&auth=&ti tle=&begin_year=&end_year=&sample=1-100&grouping=match > Perhaps it is similar in NZ. Hang on, though, I don't think that proves that Australians used to say "gotten." It's an impressive list, but first we have to throw out all the ones with "ill-gotten" and "new-gotten" as irrelevant, and then "gotten" when it has the sense of "begotten." Of what remains, some are obviously strong Scottish dialect (laddie, hae, etc.) That is interesting, as I don't remember that being a feature of previous discussions, but it's not standard Australian. I chose one of the few that remain Richardson: Maurice Guest (1908) we have at last gotten us a few friends. and followed it through the (somewhat awkward) SETIS interface until I could download a pdf file and identify the characters -- and yes, the speaker was American. There are more that could be checked, but it means so far I haven't found a single truly Australian example. Perhaps you'd care to try. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > There are more that could be checked, but it means so far I haven't > found a single truly Australian example. Perhaps you'd care to try. First tell me what you would consider "truly Australian" in the 19th century. I'm not sure when we reached a point that the immigrants were outnumbered by the native-born. And many of the writers of the time were either immigrants themselves or the children of immigrants whose usage may well have reflected that of their parents. Or the people they were writing about were immigrants, and so they are bound to include speech habits that originated elsewhere. That's just the way it was with AusE at the time. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > > There are more that could be checked, but it means so far I haven't > > found a single truly Australian example. Perhaps you'd care to try. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > habits that originated elsewhere. That's just the way it was with AusE > at the time. Well, I was just going on the assumption that if the writer was considered Australian and there was dialog with characters obviously Scottish or American, that it was the voice of the *narrator* that would represent standard Australian of the day. Seeing the quotes in broad Scottish with "gotten" surprised me, because I had no memory of that connection being made in previous discussions of the word. I see now I must have simply forgotten it, because it's in the Intro D entry I helped to write: However, "gotten" as a verb showed up in dialects in the North of England into the early 20th century, and in Scottish English to the present day. These groups, both represented among early American immigrants, might be the source of the US use. I see there are hundreds of examples in the Dictionary of the Scottish Language, such as: 1699 If the Land be hard being wate plowed and having gotten no Frost to soften it, in that case you must ... 1877 The Laird, puir body, had gotten awa. 1887 Mab had gotten a new hat Then it sort of dies away in the 20th century until the end, where it is briskly revived. I checked the Herald Scotland archives to see how it is used these days. We still have to get past "ill-gotten" and quotations in the mouths of other nationalities, but there are some, such as: 22 Nov 2009 Derren Brown could learn a thing or two at Ibrox. There's those disappearing acts that Madjid Bougherra has gotten down to a fine art ... This one quotes an Irish speaker: 13 Sep 2009 David McWilliams, a dynamic young Dublin-based economist and broadcaster ... [said] "The shocks we've gotten lately have gotten us to think differently ..." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few AUE-worthy > things over there. One of them was the use of "gotten" in a weekend [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > been naturalised in NZ? (I can find it in numerous NZ sources, but > can't tell where the writers come from.) I grew up in NZ and "gotten" has never been in my vocabulary. I was taught that "got" was the most unnecessary word in the English language and "gotten" was an abomination. It has been only in recent years that I learned from educated USians who routinely use "gotten" that it's more of a dialect difference than anything else. My Australian born and raised children don't seem to have picked it up and I am sure I would have noticed. I am not at all fond of the "haitch" I hear too often, for example. I can easily believe that exposure to American film and TV has made "gotten" more common in other English speaking countries, especially among children and young people. On 25 Nov 2009, Tasha Miller wrote >> Just returned from visiting family in NZ, and saw a few >> AUE-worthy things over there. One of them was the use of [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > made "gotten" more common in other English speaking countries, > especially among children and young people. I guess that's what rather surprised me, as the NZ sportswoman/broadcaster who used it is (according to the profile) in her 40s rather than a youngster. She does, however, work for NZ's TV3, which a quick google suggests is owned by a Canadian media conglomerate; so it may well be corporate influence in this case. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed |
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