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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2009What shape is your building?
Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for green buildings' and was thoroughly puzzled. It took me a noticeable amount of time (i.e., reading the rest of the thing) to work out that what was meant was 'why or why not do people and businesses decide to pay for space in (what are apparently called) green buildings', rather than 'what do shapes (whatever they are) demand for (etc, etc)'. (I slide gracefully over the bit where I had to work out that we weren't talking about paint colour of said buildings.) If you read that phrase would it have thrown you off? Am I just having a bad day with bureaucratese? Or was that really just strange enough that you would have had to look twice, too? Just musing in Brussels, Stephanie > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation > (not likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > having a bad day with bureaucratese? Or was that really just strange > enough that you would have had to look twice, too? There's nothing wrong with you. Unless you are lucky enough to guess from the beginning that "shapes" is a verb here and "demand" a noun, you are forced to start again once you realise that it doesn't make sense. You're entitled to demand a better shape for this sentence. And to answer your question: our house is L-shaped.  SignatureJames >> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation >> (not likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > this sentence. > And to answer your question: our house is L-shaped. I twigged right at the start, then remembered a cultural anthroplogy instructor who asked the class, "How many realize that this school is built in the form of a swastika?" It wasn't, but his point had to do with how you can't appreciate all aspects of anything from a single point of view. So I went back and confused it all up, forgetting what my initial (and correct) impression had been. Sometimes standing still yields better progress. SignatureFrank ess >>> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation >>> (not likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sometimes standing still yields better progress. For some reason, that last sentence takes me back to the "shapes demand" discussion. "Standing still yields a higher reach, sometimes." > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > having a bad day with bureaucratese? Or was that really just strange > enough that you would have had to look twice, too? I didn't think it was at all strange - I read "shapes" as a verb immediately - but I have been reading some very peculiarly phrased documents this morning so perhaps I am extra sensitive to such things at the moment. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation >> (not likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > documents this morning so perhaps I am extra sensitive to such things > at the moment. I was completely mizzled. And I think it's probably bad style to write of "shaping a demand" even in a non-garden-path sentence. A case of "colourless green ideas sleeping furiously": it meant something after all. SignatureMike. >>> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation >>> (not likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I was completely mizzled. And I think it's probably bad style to write >of "shaping a demand" even in a non-garden-path sentence. I was thoroughly mizzled too. But I now realise that this was partly, if not entirely, because my newsreader broke the sentence after "what shapes", whereas if it had been at "what", with the next line beginning "shapes demand", I doubt if I'd have had anything like the same mental vertigo. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Just musing in Brussels, > Stephanie Yup, I got caught out too, even after reading your explanation I still thought it was about what shapes might demand from a building, even though "for" had been used instead of from. I even started thinking if the shape of a green buildings contents (furniture and people) were the issue. But had I heard it, I probably would have picked up on it's intended meaning (factors that determine the shape of demand for ...) without a second thought > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for > green buildings' and was thoroughly puzzled. My immediate reaction was to wonder where that "for" came from. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > having a bad day with bureaucratese? Or was that really just strange > enough that you would have had to look twice, too? The question "What shapes demand for green buildings" immediately brought out the physicist in me. Even after reading your alternative explanation, I have difficulty in understanding it any other way than from the physicist's angle. Solely from the point of view of heat loss, a "green" building ought to have the minimum achievable ratio of :- Area (sq metres) of exterior wall : Volume (cu metres) of enclosed office space. This can be obtained by:- a. Making the building as large as possible. Ideally, all the offices of an entire town should be located in one enormous office mega-block. The offices would keep each other warm. b. Mathematically, the solid figure that minimises the ratio of external surface area to enclosed volume is the sphere. Unfortunately, this shape is not practical for building an office block. The nearest practical shape for minimising the ratio is the cube. Long, thin buildings, or narrow tall buildings release too much heat to the atmosphere in winter. Solely from the point of view of heat loss, the green town will therefore have one enormous cubical (strictly height = width = breadth) office mega-block at its centre. This may sound like 1984 to some readers. To me, it sounds like Milton Keynes. Solely from the point of view of lighting, the physicist might come to a different conclusion. Offices in the deep interior of the above-described cube would need constant lighting, with its consequent carbon dioxide emission. Solely from the point of view of lighting, we would want instead a long, tall, but narrow building with windows, facing south[1], so that all the offices can be illuminated by natural sunlight for most of the time. Taking into account both the heating and lighting requirements, we need to design a compromise between the two types of building described above. Where this compromise would fall would depend upon how cold the winters are, how long they last, how much sunlight can be expected in that particular region of the world, and how big the mega-block needs to be to satisfy the requirements of the town. The optimum compromise design in Oslo would be different from that in Orlando. That, more or less, summarises the thoughts that came to my mind when I read your phrase. [1] Not necessarily facing south. If the main problem is the need for air conditioning in excessively hot summers, rather than the need for heating during the winter, one might design the building with the windows facing north. Everything has been written by a person living in the northern hemisphere, of course. Richard Chambers Leeds UK. > [1] Not necessarily facing south. If the main problem is the need for > air conditioning in excessively hot summers, rather than the need for > heating during the winter, one might design the building with the > windows facing north. Everything has been written by a person living > in the northern hemisphere, of course. For a single dwelling, orient the verandas in such a way that the low winter sun can reach the windows, but the high summer sun is excluded. For a huge office block or similar you'd want to combine this idea with external heat exchangers and internal heating/cooling ducts. For internal lighting, run optical fibres from the roof to the internal spaces. This assumes year-round sunlight. I don't have enough experience with miserable climates. Note that the heating/cooling problem becomes much simpler if you bury the whole building underground. You might then need no artificial cooling at all. There's one Australian town where hardly anything sticks out above ground level. I gather that one regular in this group also has such a house. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. <snip> >I don't have enough experience with > miserable climates. Oh, dear, Peter, after this week, I'm afraid that sentence just means I'm going to have to hate you. I shall try to overcome this instinct but it's going to be very very hard. Sigh, from very very grey Brussels S. > <snip> >> I don't have enough experience with [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > from very very grey Brussels > S. Don't worry about Brussels. I've just had a Facebook message from Wales containing just the words "Cold and dark". SignatureRob Bannister > <snip> >> I don't have enough experience with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > from very very grey Brussels Sorry, Stephanie. I'll retract that. I do have experience with miserable climates: I've often been in Brussels. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp@retep.?.invalid>: >For internal lighting, run optical fibres from the roof to the internal >spaces. Just one big fat pipe will do. >This assumes year-round sunlight. I don't have enough experience with >miserable climates. I really don't need to tell you this but there's no such thing as a miserable climate, only miserable people. If the weather is dull the best remedy IMO is to get out in it rather than staying indoors and complaining about it. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > I really don't need to tell you this but there's no such thing as a > miserable climate, only miserable people. If the weather is dull the > best remedy IMO is to get out in it rather than staying indoors and > complaining about it. I do believe that Seasonal Affective Disorder is real. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/seasonal-affective-disorder/DS00195 SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email John Varela filted: >> I really don't need to tell you this but there's no such thing as a >> miserable climate, only miserable people. If the weather is dull the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/seasonal-affective-disorder/DS00195 My pineal gland agrees with you....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> I really don't need to tell you this but there's no such thing as a >> miserable climate, only miserable people. If the weather is dull the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/seasonal-affective-disorder/DS00195 It certainly is. With me, it always used to start in November and last till April, but then I discovered hay fever tablets. SignatureRob Bannister Richard Chambers filted: >Solely from the point of view of heat loss, a "green" building ought to have >the minimum achievable ratio of :- [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >mega-block at its centre. This may sound like 1984 to some readers. To me, >it sounds like Milton Keynes. I'm surprised you dismiss the sphere so quickly...Bucky Fuller would be terribly disappointed.... "Green" design for an office block should take into account the need to get the worker drones to it each morning and then back home each night/evening (cross-thread alert!)...the more workers you can have doing their jobs from home, the greener the result...now the sphere becomes more practical, because you don't even need to put real windows in it (like the bomb-resistant "data centers" some companies have, or the eerie telephone company "installations" that look like office buildings but really contain nothing but automatic switching equipment).... Perhaps we should ask someone at Arcosanti if they have any insights into this matter...at one time I'd've solicited advice from the Biosphere II experiment, but subsequent revelations cast doubt on their commitment to optimality (and heck, the place isn't even a sphere)....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > "Green" design for an office block should take into account the need to get the > worker drones to it each morning and then back home each night/evening [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that look like office buildings but really contain nothing but automatic > switching equipment).... With windows in, these make great houses because the walls are so thick. Ours is a double layer of bricks, then a larger than standard cavity, then a single leaf. SignatureOnline waterways route planner: http://canalplan.org.uk development version: http://canalplan.eu > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > having a bad day with bureaucratese? Or was that really just strange > enough that you would have had to look twice, too? It took me a long, long time to work it out, even with your helpful commentary, but I have finally understood what the intended meaning was:- "What factors influence the demand for green buildings?" Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >> likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >"What factors influence the demand for green buildings?" Me too. I started by thinking that it was a badly worded "What shapes are demanded" that is "What shapes are required". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >>> likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I started by thinking that it was a badly worded "What shapes are >demanded" that is "What shapes are required". And me. I suppose, to satisfy curiosity (without any danger to cats) we need to be informed whether James' L-shaped house is green. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >>>> likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > And me. I suppose, to satisfy curiosity (without any danger to cats) > we need to be informed whether James' L-shaped house is green. No, yellow. SignatureJames >>>>> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >>>>> likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >No, yellow. You say "L-shaped". Is the L with or sans serifs? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > You say "L-shaped". Is the L with or sans serifs? Sans. There's a tall pine tree standing dangerously close to the house. If a storm were to blow it down, the house would look like a mirror image of a Polish Ł. SignatureJames On Nov 27, 11:36 am, "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7_NoSp...@ntlworld.net> wrote: > > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > "What factors influence the demand for green buildings?" One problem is the word "green" which can, just occasionally, mean a colour, and when it doesn't it is essentially a sign saying "you can't argue with this". Yorkshire has taken to green in a big way. Sheffield has become the green roof capital of the UK. There are an estimated 120 green roofs in the city but the 2000 square metre roof of Sharrow School is the first to be declared a Local Nature Reserve, according to Natural England, and you can't get much greener than to have a name like that. -- franzi On Nov 27, 11:36 am, "Richard Chambers" <richard.chambers7_NoSp...@ntlworld.net> wrote: > tsuidf wrote > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > "What factors influence the demand for green buildings?" franzi: One problem is the word "green" which can, just occasionally, mean a colour, and when it doesn't it is essentially a sign saying "you can't argue with this". Pat: All this problem with verbs and their functions can bring on confusion. Does no one recall the book, "The Greening of America"? > "franzi" <et.in.arcadia.franzi@googlemail.com> wrote [...] > One problem is the word "green" which can, just occasionally, mean a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > All this problem with verbs and their functions can bring on > confusion. Does no one recall the book, "The Greening of America"? "How Green Was My Valley"? "Greenmantle"? SignatureMike. >> "franzi" <et.in.arcadia.franzi@googlemail.com> wrote [...] >> One problem is the word "green" which can, just occasionally, mean a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >"How Green Was My Valley"? >"Greenmantle"? And, for you classics scholars, "The green green grass of Rome". SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>"How Green Was My Valley"? >>"Greenmantle"? > >And, for you classics scholars, "The green green grass of Rome". For science-fiction lovers, "The Green Hills of Earth". -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 > One problem is the word "green" which can, just occasionally, mean a > colour, and when it doesn't it is essentially a sign saying "you can't > argue with this". Are we back on the "colour of right" (which I thought was blue)? SignatureRob Bannister >> Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >> likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > "What factors influence the demand for green buildings?" Strange. I read it correctly the first time. I think, for me, "shapes demand" is a known, set phrase. SignatureRob Bannister tsuidf <stephanie.mitchell@telenet.be>: >Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >If you read that phrase would it have thrown you off? I read it right the first time. I either went straight down the right garden path or I did a mini-backtrack when I got to "for" without noticing doing so. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England tsuidf set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for > green buildings' and was thoroughly puzzled. I shudder to think what shape the author of that piece was in. But such gobbledegook is indeed the shape of things to come. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Just musing in Brussels, > Stephanie Yes, it threw me, but a simple "the" before "demand" would have fixed the situation. SignatureSkitt (AmE) trying to shape up > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Just musing in Brussels, > Stephanie I immediately started guessing at energy-conserving eco-friendly building shapes and paused before reading the rest of your post. So, yes, I did have to look twice. That's definitely idiom where I'd have needed some preliminary context to sort out the nouns from the verbs. Thank you all, so much. The sheer scope of your answers revealed even more possibilities for confusion than had first bewildered me upon starting the day with that bit of bafflegaff, and in the process you reminded me of your fantastic senses of humour, your wonderful breadth and depth of knowledge, and how much I wish the debate to which I'd been invited involved any or all of the above! I feel consoled, encouraged, cheered up and generally revived (so it's clearly time to go have a good night's sleep). And in case anyone ever (for some reason I cannot yet fathom) asks my opinion on green buildings, I'll have lots of ideas to lob at them. thank you, and good night, Stephanie >Thank you all, so much. The sheer scope of your answers revealed even >more possibilities for confusion than had first bewildered me upon [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >And in case anyone ever (for some reason I cannot yet fathom) asks my >opinion on green buildings, I'll have lots of ideas to lob at them. If anyone wants to make their building green quickly and expensively, I recommend painting it with Chanel Jade nail varnish. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >> Thank you all, so much. The sheer scope of your answers revealed even >> more possibilities for confusion than had first bewildered me upon [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > If anyone wants to make their building green quickly and expensively, > I recommend painting it with Chanel Jade nail varnish. Quickly? Does it come in gallon drums with an extra wide brush? SignatureJames > >> Thank you all, so much. The sheer scope of your answers revealed even > >> more possibilities for confusion than had first bewildered me upon [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Quickly? Does it come in gallon drums with an extra wide brush? I should Coco! -- franzi >> >> Thank you all, so much. The sheer scope of your answers revealed even >> >> more possibilities for confusion than had first bewildered me upon [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >I should Coco! <groan!> SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> >> Thank you all, so much. The sheer scope of your answers revealed even >>> >> more possibilities for confusion than had first bewildered me upon [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > ><groan!> Indeed, but nicely done. In answer to James, a front-page article in yesterday's The Times said that Chanel had decided for some reason not to make any more Jade not nohow, and therefore bottles retailing at 16 UKP were now changing hands for 84 pounds apiece. So, for the cost of another house and a few years of labour, a most uniquely green house could be yours. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England > If anyone wants to make their building green quickly and expensively, > I recommend painting it with Chanel Jade nail varnish. Ooh, ooh, I want to get my hand up fast enough to be called on so I can say that! Yes! > Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not > likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for > green buildings' and was thoroughly puzzled. ... I had a lot of trouble with it, but the subject line of this thread may have helped throw me off. -- Jerry Friedman >Ploughing through the morning e-post, I came across an invitation (not >likely to be accepted, mind) to a 'debate over what shapes demand for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >having a bad day with bureaucratese? Or was that really just strange >enough that you would have had to look twice, too? The image that comes to my mind is hands shaping modelling clay. So I would understand it no as what drives demand, but rather as what manipulates an existing demand. "How can we direct the demand for green buildings into channels that suit us?" SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk |
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