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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2009"Scupper"
From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: "China is attempting to scupper chances of a comprehen[s]ive agreement at the Copenhagen climate summit by using delaying tactics, sources inside the negotiations have told The Independent. " http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/chinas-delaying-tactics- threaten-climate-deal-1844661.html or http://tinyurl.com/yfceded Three defs of "scupper": 1. noun: drain that allows water on the deck of a vessel to flow overboard 2. verb: wait in hiding to attack 3. verb: put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position I assume that "scupper" was used by The Independent is the sense of Meaning 3. (And are the three definitions related?) Note: Meaning 1 is interesting (to me). Many of the porches on older Detroit houses have drains allowing the water on the porch "floor"/surface to spill over onto the ground. I've never heard those drains called "scuppers," however. (They were/are called, simply, "drains," as far as I know. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HhVGrCGT1uE/SjbohB9PoVI/AAAAAAAAGg0/Vs2EC72KJaw/s400/s cupper.JPG or http://tinyurl.com/yjcam6c The above photo is not quite like the porches I have in mind, which had half-walls (of wood -- or sometimes brick) or fence-type wrap-arounds about three feet high, with the scuppers (of either wood or cement) at the bottom of said half-walls, and not below the floor surface as pictured. I /have/ heard the word scupper before, but don't remember where or when* or concerning what. (Guess: Probably in books I've read about the Navy or the troop ships of WWII.) *which brings a song to mind, of course.  SignatureMaria Conlon > From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > drains called "scuppers," however. (They were/are called, simply, > "drains," as far as I know. Sure: because not on a ship. I find that the noun is found from the 15C, while the "ruin" sense goes back to 1885: OED says "To surprise and massacre." The Dictionary doesn't commit itself to an explanation, saying that "the connexion of meaning is not clear." But in a later addition it gives space to a suggestion that it might be from the idea that "A man killed in action or falling in heavy weather would naturally roll into the scuppers." SignatureMike. >From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >2. verb: wait in hiding to attack >3. verb: put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position From the OED: scupper, n. 1. a. Naut. Chiefly pl. An opening in a ship's side on a level with the deck to allow water to run away. scupper, v. [f. SCUPPER n. The connection is perh. explained by Fraser & Gibbons Soldier & Sailor Words (1925) s.v. Scuppered: A man killed in action or falling in heavy weather would naturally roll into the scuppers.] 1. trans. To surprise and massacre. Mil. slang. 2. colloq. To defeat, ruin, destroy, put an end to. 3. To sink (a vessel) deliberately; = SCUTTLE v.2 1 a (with which it is sometimes confused). >I assume that "scupper" was used by The Independent is the sense of >Meaning 3. (And are the three definitions related?) It is meaning 2: "China is attempting to ruin chances of a comprehen[s]ive agreement". >Note: Meaning 1 is interesting (to me). Many of the porches on older >Detroit houses have drains allowing the water on the porch [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >*which brings a song to mind, of course. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >It is meaning 2: "China is attempting to ruin chances of a >comprehen[s]ive agreement". Or meaning 1, metaphorically -- they want the possibility of a comprehensive agreement to "drain away". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >when* or concerning what. (Guess: Probably in books I've read about the >Navy or the troop ships of WWII.) "Scupper" used as a verb is apparently mainly used in BrE, according to COD. scupper2 · v. chiefly Brit. 1 sink (a ship) deliberately. 2 informal prevent from working or succeeding; thwart. ORIGIN C19 (as military sl. in the sense kill, especially in an ambush): of unknown origin. In that "Independent" report they're using sense 2. SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > In that "Independent" report they're using sense 2. Scuttle was the preferred verb when the Graf Spee ventured out to meet Ajax, Achilles and Exeter in the early days of WW2. [...] >> "Scupper" used as a verb is apparently mainly used in BrE, according >> to COD. >> scupper2 >> · v. chiefly Brit. >> 1 sink (a ship) deliberately. [...] > Scuttle was the preferred verb when the Graf Spee > ventured out to meet Ajax, Achilles and Exeter in > the early days of WW2. Indeed (and it was a sign of health, I think, that we were encouraged to regard Langsdorff as a bit of a hero). And, as "scupper" as a synonym of "scuttle" is recent (OED 1976), I rather think it probably originated as a mistake. OED says "with which it is sometimes confused", which may be as near as modern lexicographers get to calling something a mistake. SignatureMike. >From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >2. verb: wait in hiding to attack >3. verb: put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position The Random House dictionary adds "Informal. to prevent from happening or succeeding; ruin, wreck. The American Heritage dictionary includes "to ruin or destroy". These are the definitions I would apply to the Independent's usage. While I had no trouble recognizing this usage, it does seem to be a Brit thing. Google "scupper his chances" and the first-page hits are mostly Brit in origin. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida [..] > I /have/ heard the word scupper before, but don't remember where or > when* or concerning what. (Guess: Probably in books I've read about the > Navy or the troop ships of WWII.) > > *which brings a song to mind, of course. Not to mention the other ditty with the line "Put him in the scuppers with a hosepipe on him" which is what the header immediately set off in my head. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >[..] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >with a hosepipe on him" which is what the header immediately set off in >my head. Points awarded for a cross-thread reference to the peaty scotch thread. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >> [..] >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Points awarded for a cross-thread reference to the peaty scotch > thread. We could do that to Peaty Daniels, too.* Wonder if he's got a cousin Jack Tar. *That would scotch his little deliberate misunderstandings. I mean, "I know what AUE means and I know what FAQ means, but I don't know what AUE FAQ could possibly mean" is a masterpiece of perversity. SignatureMike. >>> [..] >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >know what AUE means and I know what FAQ means, but I don't know what AUE >FAQ could possibly mean" is a masterpiece of perversity. He needs to show some proof. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> [..] >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > know what AUE means and I know what FAQ means, but I don't know what AUE > FAQ could possibly mean" is a masterpiece of perversity. So the worm knew all along, but still asked for an explanation. SignatureJames > From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > *which brings a song to mind, of course. I've heard scupper used as meaning put the kibosh on something. I figure its a mistake for scuttle that has taken root. >I've heard scupper used as meaning put the kibosh on something. >I figure its a mistake for scuttle that has taken root. Sounds plausible, but according to my dictionary the metaphorical meaning of "scuttle" is to give up hope or plans, while to "scupper" them is to thwart or put the kibosh on them. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > From The Independent On Sunday [UK]: > > "China is attempting to scupper chances of a comprehen[s]ive agreement > at the Copenhagen climate summit by using delaying tactics, sources > inside the negotiations have told The Independent. " http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/chinas-delaying-tactics- threaten-climate-deal-1844661.html > or > http://tinyurl.com/yfceded [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > drains called "scuppers," however. (They were/are called, simply, > "drains," as far as I know. Never heard of meaning (2). I would call that an ambush, and I don't see the connection to any other form of scupper. Many coastal towns in the UK have scuppers (meaning 1) along the base of the wall along the sea front, to allow sea-water (and rain) to flow back into the sea. Although I've used the word to refer to such holes, I've never heard them called that by anybody else. As for meaning (3), I've heard of it, but my boss where I used to work, would regularly use the word "spanner" for this, as in throwing one into the works. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply >Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >continuum: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >the sea. Although I've used the word to refer to such holes, I've never >heard them called that by anybody else. Scupper, meaning (1), is a common shipboard term, instead of something to do with a sea wall. Most dangerous to a boat's deck is not sea water, BTW, but freshwater from rain, since it can cause dry rot, making scuppers important. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Maria Conlon wrote, in part: >>> Three defs of "scupper": >>> >>> 1. noun: drain that allows water on the deck of a vessel to flow >>> overboard >>> 2. verb: wait in hiding to attack >>> 3. verb: put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position > Scupper, meaning (1), is a common shipboard term, instead of something > to do with a sea wall. Most dangerous to a boat's deck is not sea > water, BTW, but freshwater from rain, since it can cause dry rot, > making scuppers important. Thank you for that information. Have you used "spanner" the tool sense? (Please see my reply to Paul/Prei regarding the term; you may wish to answer some of the questions I asked him.) SignatureMaria Conlon Prai Jei wrote: . > Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > see the > connection to any other form of scupper. Yes -- "ambush" does seem appropriate for that meaning. > Many coastal towns in the UK have scuppers (meaning 1) along the base > of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > never > heard them called that by anybody else. There again, I would call the openings "drains" or, perhaps, "outlets" (through which the excess water drains). Any idea why "spanner" is used in that instance? > As for meaning (3), I've heard of it, but my boss where I used to > work, > would regularly use the word "spanner" for this, as in throwing one > into > the works. I've heard "spanner" many a time in "the works" context, but I never understood what it was. (I figured it was anything that could result in a blockage in any mechanism.) As it turns out, a Google Image search showed me that we've got a few spanners in the tool box. However, they are just "wrenches" of a kind to me. The only one I might be tempted to call a "spanner" is the adjustable one (which I've used a number of times; the word is apt because the tool "spans" various widths).. Here's that kind of spanner: http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/555/945spanner.jpg However, other than in the "spanner in the works" phrase, I've never heard "spanner" used hereabouts. BrE? Is the "spanner" involved a particular kind, or just any kind? And do the Americans in this group use the term "spanner" for "wrench"? (I never heard my father, a real handyman around the house, use "spanner" in reference to any particular tool; he did use it, I think, in the "works" phrase, though, as did my mother.) SignatureMaria Conlon Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > I've heard "spanner" many a time in "the works" context, but I never > understood what it was. (I figured it was anything that could result in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that kind of spanner: > http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/555/945spanner.jpg I didn't realise that "spanner" was a Britishism but "wrench" which is presumably the AmE equivalent, seems a much better expression. A spanner is assumed to be fixed unless specifically stated to be "adjustable" or (more colloquially) "shifting", but OTOH the self-grip wench (as a classic misprint once put it) is never referred to as a spanner. A "spanner in the works" refers to the image of such a tool being left unknowingly inside a machine, with the implication that it would jam or damage the machine as soon as it is put to use. The usage is more often than not figurative, to mean a weak point, a design flaw, or even a disruptive person. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply >Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time >continuum: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >A "spanner in the works" refers to the image of such a tool being left >unknowingly inside a machine, Or the tool being put in the machine deliberately. According to CALD http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=76157&dict=CALD put/throw a spanner in the works (US throw a (monkey) wrench in the works) to do something that prevents a plan or activity from succeeding The funding for the project was withdrawn so that really threw a spanner in the works. > with the implication that it would jam or >damage the machine as soon as it is put to use. The usage is more often >than not figurative, to mean a weak point, a design flaw, or even a >disruptive person. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time continuum: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > often than not figurative, to mean a weak point, a design flaw, or > even a disruptive person. There is such a thing as a spanner wrench in AmE use. It is a specialized wrench of several types. Here are some of them: http://www.tormach.com/images/products/Maint/spanner_wrench.jpg http://www.tormach.com/images/products/Maint/pin_spanner_wrench.jpg http://zedomax.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/spanner-wrench.jpg http://midwestapplianceparts.com/images/22038313.jpg These wrenches span things. SignatureSkitt (AmE) >I've heard "spanner" many a time in "the works" context, but I never >understood what it was. (I figured it was anything that could result in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >tool; he did use it, I think, in the "works" phrase, though, as did my >mother.) In this neck of the woods spanners have flat faces to fit on a nut, except for hex spanners that grip the nut by the corners. A wrench has jagged edges on the faces to grip round things, like pipes, and is designed in such a way that exerting pressure tightens its grip. Large ones are called bobbejaans (baboons), though I think the English is "monkey wrench". So I think it is the other way round here -- a wrench is a specuial kind of spanner, rather than a spanner being a special kind of wrench. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >In this neck of the woods spanners have flat faces to fit on a nut, except for >hex spanners that grip the nut by the corners. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >wrench". So I think it is the other way round here -- a wrench is a specuial >kind of spanner, rather than a spanner being a special kind of wrench. That is consistent with my BrE experience, but one can draw finer distinctions. To me a monkey-wrench is pretty much obsolete, a type of adjustable-head spanner _for nuts_ that has essentially been supplanted by the modern adjustable spanner that has a more compact head. The pipe wrench or Stilson wrench is a rather more specialised tool; it also has an adjustable head, but isn't meant for use on nuts (though it can be handy when the nut has been rounded off by other tools). I usually end up using a Mole wrench in this situation... SignatureRoger BW - BrE Roger Burton West filted: >>In this neck of the woods spanners have flat faces to fit on a nut, except for >>hex spanners that grip the nut by the corners. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >handy when the nut has been rounded off by other tools). I usually end >up using a Mole wrench in this situation... How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like knockdown furniture?...r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Roger Burton West filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things > like knockdown furniture?...r That's not any kind of wrench. It's an allen key or hex key. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au John Holmes filted: >> Roger Burton West filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >That's not any kind of wrench. It's an allen key or hex key. Google gives a slight advantage to "allen wrench" over "allen key" in both regular web search and "images" search...entries for "allen spanner" are vanishingly small by comparison....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > John Holmes filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > both regular web search and "images" search...entries for "allen > spanner" are vanishingly small by comparison....r I suspect you are picking up hits from AmE web sites, or else material quoted from AmE websites. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au John Holmes filted: >> John Holmes filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I suspect you are picking up hits from AmE web sites, or else material >quoted from AmE websites. I am picking up hits, without discriminating on the basis of national origin, from wherever they happen to appear...if someone named "Allen Keys" is mentioned anywhere on the web, the associated hits may well be inflated....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >John Holmes filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >regular web search and "images" search...entries for "allen spanner" are >vanishingly small by comparison....r When I had a job as a lab tech, between school years, I worked with a bevy of machinists in Maryland for several years. I'll guarantee you these tools are called allen wrenches, at least they are in AmE. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like > knockdown furniture?...r Until I read that question, it had never occurred to me to think of it as being related to a wrench. In my mind, an Allen key is in the screwdriver family. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like >> knockdown furniture?...r > >Until I read that question, it had never occurred to me to think of it >as being related to a wrench. In my mind, an Allen key is in the >screwdriver family. Yup. It's inserted rather than ... hmm. What's the word? Is there one? (And I mean one. I can think of several ways of putting it that take more than one word.) SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like >>> knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >one? (And I mean one. I can think of several ways of putting it >that take more than one word.) What about outserted? SignatureRobin (BrE) Herts, England >>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble >>>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What about outserted? The Latin prefix that's the opposite of "in" is "ex", but "exert" (and the very rare spelling "exsert") means something else. The meaning of the root is not what you might expect: Latin "serere" means "bind, entwine". Anyway, a screwdriver is "inserted" in a screw while a wrench is "wrapped" around a nut. There must be a better one-word synonym than that, but I can't think of it. SignatureJames > >>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble > >>>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "wrapped" around a nut. There must be a better one-word synonym than > that, but I can't think of it. I "put" a wrench on a nut. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email [...] > I "put" a wrench on a nut. And I've put nuts on a wench. Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > [...] >> I "put" a wrench on a nut. >> > And I've put nuts on a wench. Is that the self-grip wench I referred to upthread? Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Reinhold {Rey} Aman set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time continuum: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Is that the self-grip wench I referred to upthread? I love it when you torque dirty. SignatureJames >> Reinhold {Rey} Aman set the following eddies spiralling through the >> space-time continuum: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I love it when you torque dirty. Seems like ratchet excess to me. SignatureFrank ess > [...] > > I "put" a wrench on a nut. > > > And I've put nuts on a wench. I understand that in Europe they use metric wenches. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> [...] >> > I "put" a wrench on a nut. >> > >> And I've put nuts on a wench. > >I understand that in Europe they use metric wenches. These days, yes, but in the Triumph motorcycle I bought in the sixties, the company used Whitworth. In the Triumph and BSA models I bought after that, Whitworth had disappeared, but I sometimes encountered metric and English on the same machine, which made life interesting for the mechanic. Since I did much of my own work, I needed quite a variety of wrenches and sockets. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> [...] >> > I "put" a wrench on a nut. >> > >> And I've put nuts on a wench. > >I understand that in Europe they use metric wenches. Fortunately there is flexibility. It is possible for non-metric tools to mate with metric wenches. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson (BrE) set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: >>> [...] >>> > I "put" a wrench on a nut. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Fortunately there is flexibility. It is possible for non-metric tools to > mate with metric wenches. Wasn't there a series called AF, usually interpreted as Awkward F'ers? Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply >Peter Duncanson (BrE) set the following eddies spiralling through the >space-time continuum: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Wasn't there a series called AF, usually interpreted as Awkward F'ers? I recall something like that. However: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_AF_screw_thread What is AF screw thread? To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as an 'AF screw thread'. AF actually stands for 'Across Flats', and is the measurement term for the width of certain spanners jaws. A 7/16" AF spanner for example measures 7/16" across the jaws. AF spanners were designed to fit several older type of screw threaded bolts, such as BSW, BSF and others. A 7/16 AF spanner will fit both a 3/16 BSW and 1/4 BSF bolt. You can of course find spanners with BSW measurements on them, however, a 3/16 BSW spanner indicates that the threaded part of the bolt is 3/16" in diameter, the actual size across the jaws of the spanner is as described above, 7/16", which mirrors the size of the hexagonal head of the bolt measured across the flats, this principle is essentially the same when dealing with BSF. The whole subject of screw threads (particularly the older ones) is quite a minefield, but I hope this brief explanation is of some help! Mikesk SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> [...] >>>> I "put" a wrench on a nut. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Fortunately there is flexibility. It is possible for non-metric tools to > mate with metric wenches. Especially after they've tightened your nuts. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>>> [...] >>>>> I "put" a wrench on a nut. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >Especially after they've tightened your nuts. And rounded them so that a spanner will no longer loosen them and you have to use a wrench instead. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > [...] >> I "put" a wrench on a nut. >> > And I've put nuts on a wench. I didn't know you were qualified to perform that kind of surgery. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |So when can we quit passing laws and 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |raising taxes? When can we say of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |our political system, "Stick a fork |in it, it's done?" kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like >> knockdown furniture?...r > >Until I read that question, it had never occurred to me to think of it >as being related to a wrench. In my mind, an Allen key is in the >screwdriver family. Allen wrenches are probably called wrenches by many people because they are used to twist things. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble >>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Allen wrenches are probably called wrenches by many people because > they are used to twist things. I have a multilingual illustrated dictionary of tools where Allen keys are classed with spanners and wrenches. In German it's called an "Imbussschlüssel", with the root "Schlüssel" meaning "wrench". SignatureJames >>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble >>>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > are classed with spanners and wrenches. In German it's called an > "Imbussschlüssel", with the root "Schlüssel" meaning "wrench". Schlüssel also means "key" or "spanner" (inter alia): <http://tinyurl.com/6k2zuh> SignatureLes (BrE) >>>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble >>>>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > <http://tinyurl.com/6k2zuh> Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht wahr? SignatureSkitt (AmE) Fröhliche Weihnachten! >>>>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble >>>>>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht wahr? Jo, eh. SignatureLes (BrE) >>>>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble >>>>>> things like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht wahr? Ya vohl. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Skitt wrote re "allen": >> Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht >> wahr? > > Ya vohl. Nein. Not at all; no way, José; no way in Hell, etc. That is: Only in certain parts of the world will "key" come to mind first when a tool named Allen is mentioned.) Btw: "Allen Key" (or "Keys") as a person's name is very possible, but "Allen Wrench" is rather unlikely. Note that the "Allen" will often be spelled "Alan" when the name is attached to a human being. Maria Conlon, who's having a "sugar headache" thanks to all the Sweetened Stuff of Christmas. (I should avoid it? I should Just Say No, Thanks? Sure, right. I'll do that next time.) >> Skitt wrote re "allen": > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >That is: Only in certain parts of the world will "key" come to mind >first when a tool named Allen is mentioned.) Yebbut - returning to our sheep - "key" is the primary meaning of "schlüssel". SignatureIan D >>> Skitt wrote re "allen": >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Yebbut - returning to our sheep - "key" is the primary meaning of >"schlüssel". Right you are, Ian. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE Maria Conlon filted: >Maria Conlon, who's having a "sugar headache" thanks to all the >Sweetened Stuff of Christmas. (I should avoid it? I should Just Say No, >Thanks? Sure, right. I'll do that next time.) I had *one* slice of turkey yesterday, and arose today five minutes before noon...tryptophan strikes again....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? >> Skitt wrote re "allen": Nope -- I wrote about "Schlüssel". >>> Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht >>> wahr? >> >> Ya vohl. > > Nein. Not at all; no way, José; no way in Hell, etc. See above. > That is: Only in certain parts of the world will "key" come to mind > first when a tool named Allen is mentioned.) <snip> SignatureSkitt (AmE) Merry Christmas! >>> Skitt wrote re "allen": >>>> Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht >>>> wahr? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Nope -- I wrote about "Schlüssel". So you did. I was confusing "Schlussel" with "Allen." Why? I don't know. Any case, there's nothing wrong with using either "key" or "wrench," if one is following local usage. [Above rearranged to keep it in time order. Or something.] SignatureMaria Conlon >> Skitt wrote re "allen": > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >"Allen Wrench" is rather unlikely. Note that the "Allen" will often be >spelled "Alan" when the name is attached to a human being. My concurrence was in response to 'Schlüssel also means "key"', which you illogically snipped, but then who can explain the machinations of a woman? Whether the tool is called an Allen wrench or an Allen key seems to depend on region, from the comments I've seen. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> Skitt wrote re "allen": >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > My concurrence was in response to 'Schlüssel also means "key"', Yes. Skitt mentioned the same thing, and I replied to him. > ....which > you illogically snipped, but then who can explain the machinations of > a woman? Other women may be able to explain the machinations of a woman's way of thinking, but men have problems with the logic. I see that as a flaw in men, not in women. Women are perfectly logical. They do have more complicated things on their minds than do men, which leaves those lesser mentally-endowed individuals with trouble following it all. If you spent more time around women, you'd probably catch on. > Whether the tool is called an Allen wrench or an Allen key seems to > depend on region, from the comments I've seen. Of course. I was denying that "[w]ithout context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind," and stated that that is true only in certain parts of the world. Neither "key" nor "wrench" is wrong, of course. They each have their adherents, sort of like "Merry Christmas" vs "Happy Christmas." Either one works. SignatureMaria Conlon >>>> Skitt wrote re "allen": >>>>> Without context, "key" is the one that first comes to mind, nicht >>>>> wahr? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > that first comes to mind," and stated that that is true only in > certain parts of the world. What you failed to notice (and unfortunately snipped the indication*) is that I was talking strictly about the German word as used without context in the German language. My statement was absolutely true, as any German will confirm. > Neither "key" nor "wrench" is wrong, of course. They each have their > adherents, sort of like "Merry Christmas" vs "Happy Christmas." Either > one works. Immaterial to my comment. ------------- * The snippage contained: > Schlüssel also means "key" or "spanner" (inter alia): > > <http://tinyurl.com/6k2zuh> SignatureSkitt (AmE) >>>>> Skitt wrote re "allen": > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > context in the German language. My statement was absolutely true, as > any German will confirm. Okay. I believe you're right. >> Neither "key" nor "wrench" is wrong, of course. They each have their >> adherents, sort of like "Merry Christmas" vs "Happy Christmas." >> Either >> one works. > > Immaterial to my comment. Also to mine? > ------------- > * The snippage contained: >> >> Schlüssel also means "key" or "spanner" (inter alia): >> >> <http://tinyurl.com/6k2zuh> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. My apologies. SignatureMaria Conlon >>>>>> Skitt wrote re "allen": >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. My >apologies. I'll let you off this time, Maria, but one more "Charles" and we're not talking. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. My >> apologies. > > I'll let you off this time, Maria, but one more "Charles" and we're > not talking. That reminds me: I need to buy a new chuck key. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. My >>> apologies. >> I'll let you off this time, Maria, but one more "Charles" and we're >> not talking. > > That reminds me: I need to buy a new chuck key. Here we go again: This augurs well for the inauguration of a new subthread. SignatureJames >>>> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. >>>> My apologies. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Here we go again: > This augurs well for the inauguration of a new subthread. Far as I'm concerned, it's awl over. SignatureFrank ess >>>>> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. >>>>> My apologies. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Far as I'm concerned, it's awl over. Bit of a wrench, though, after all this time? SignatureIan D >>>>>> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. >>>>>> My apologies. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Bit of a wrench, though, after all this time? Don't drive him too hard. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Chuck Riggs wrote, in part: >> Okay, Skitt. You and Charles are right. I apparently screwed up. My >> apologies. > > I'll let you off this time, Maria, but one more "Charles" and we're > not talking. I try to keep your preference in mind (and other people's preferences, too), but occasional lapses will happen. As I'm sure you know, such lapses are not deliberate. As for the threat, I can't begin to know how to respond. I don't handle "or else" untimatums very well. SignatureMaria Conlon I, Maria Conlon, wrote in part: > ... I don't handle "or else" untimatums very well. Um. That should be "ultimatums"; and yes, the 's' version is an acceptable plural, and least in AmE. Also: Is there any other kind of ultimatum rather than an "or else" one? Rather "off" tonight, Maria Conlon >Chuck Riggs wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >too), but occasional lapses will happen. As I'm sure you know, such >lapses are not deliberate. Fair enough, but in case you forget again, the name I prefer is easy to discover since it appears in all of my posts. >As for the threat, I can't begin to know how to respond. I don't handle >"or else" untimatums very well. You responded well enough, alleged threat or not. ObAUE, a "threat" is along these lines from the COD10: n. 1 a statement of an intention to inflict injury, damage, or other hostile action as retribution. Law a menace of bodily harm, such as may restrain a persons freedom of action. 2 a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger. the possibility of trouble or danger. ORIGIN OE thrUat oppression, of Gmc origin. I hadn't planned on shooting you, you must realize. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >> Chuck Riggs wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > of trouble or danger. > - ORIGIN OE thrUat 'oppression', of Gmc origin. Note that bit about "other hostile action." > I hadn't planned on shooting you, you must realize. I never even thought of that happening. (And besides, considering the distance involved, shooting would be futile.) SignatureMaria Conlon, Who has a nickname, too. >>> Chuck Riggs wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >I never even thought of that happening. (And besides, considering the >distance involved, shooting would be futile.) IINM, contract killings are not out of fashion and from what I've read, seen in films and watched on TV, these guys generally use a gun. But let's drop this silly topic, if you don't mind. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> I hadn't planned on shooting you, you must realize. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > read, seen in films and watched on TV, these guys generally use a gun. > But let's drop this silly topic, if you don't mind. I'm glad to drop it -- talk about contract killings could spoil my day. SignatureMaria Conlon, Whose day is already spoiled, anyway: I've had a headache since Christmas. As I may have already mentioned, I think it may be from a "sugar high." >>>> Skitt wrote re "allen": >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >individuals with trouble following it all. If you spent more time around >women, you'd probably catch on. Shirley you jest. I am surrounded by women; I am drowning in femininity. There are so many women about, they smother me. >> Whether the tool is called an Allen wrench or an Allen key seems to >> depend on region, from the comments I've seen. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >adherents, sort of like "Merry Christmas" vs "Happy Christmas." Either >one works. The above usages are regional, IINM. BTW, when I am greeted by Merry Christmas here, as I sometimes am, I believe it is because I'm an American, since that greeting has yet to catch on with the Irish. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>Until I read that question, it had never occurred to me to think of it >>as being related to a wrench. In my mind, an Allen key is in the >>screwdriver family. > >Allen wrenches are probably called wrenches by many people because >they are used to twist things. Things is, though, so are screwdrivers, and keys, and, come to that, spinning-wheels. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>Until I read that question, it had never occurred to me to think of it >>>as being related to a wrench. In my mind, an Allen key is in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Things is, though, so are screwdrivers, and keys, and, come to that, >spinning-wheels. Wenches sometimes twist things. Getting back to mechanics, only some keys twist things. The rest are merely inserted. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things >>> like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Allen wrenches are probably called wrenches by many people because > they are used to twist things. Those "many people" are all American. The things are hex keys or allen keys in most of the rest of the world. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things >>>> like knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Those "many people" are all American. The things are hex keys or allen > keys in most of the rest of the world. Looks like a number of shops in the UK refer to them as "wrenches": http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=allen+wrench&hl=en&show=dd&sa=N&lnk=next&start=10 > Looks like a number of shops in the UK refer to them as "wrenches": > http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=allen+wrench&hl=en&show=dd&sa=N&lnk=next&start=10 The fact that they are listed that way on a web site doesn't necessarily mean that anybody really calls them that. It could be because they have copied package labelling or catalogue wording that is designed for the US market, or yet another example of the way advertising people use terms that normal people don't. SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> Looks like a number of shops in the UK refer to them as "wrenches": >> http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=allen+wrench&hl=en&show=dd&sa=N&lnk=next&start=10 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >US market, or yet another example of the way advertising people use >terms that normal people don't. Yes. One example is: http://www.bestofferbuy.com/9Pcs-SAE-LStyle-Hex-Key-Caddy-Set-Automotive--Electr onic-ToolsAllen-Wrenches-p-32348.html?currency=GBP 9Pcs SAE L-Style Hex Key Caddy Set Automotive & Electronic Tools-Allen Wrenches SAE is SAE International, formerly the Society of Automotive Engineers. If their specification for hex keys use the term "Allen Wrenches" then it is understandable that makers would use that name. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Looks like a number of shops in the UK refer to them as "wrenches": >>> http://www.google.co.uk/products?q=allen+wrench&hl=en&show=dd&sa=N&lnk=next&start=10 [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >If their specification for hex keys use the term "Allen Wrenches" then >it is understandable that makers would use that name. That nails it, AFAIK. Allen wrenches, it is. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE >Those "many people" are all American. The things are hex keys or allen >keys in most of the rest of the world. Or indeed "Allen driver" or "hex driver", if it's a hex-head on a conventional screwdriver body or a 1/4" hex bit rather than the conventional right-angled stand-alone Allen key. SignatureRoger BW - BrE >> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like >> knockdown furniture?...r > > Until I read that question, it had never occurred to me to think of it > as being related to a wrench. In my mind, an Allen key is in the > screwdriver family. I agree, it's clearly a driver. And the small hex-ended bits that you can put into handles or power tools are called hex drivers. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk Nick filted: >>> How do you account for the "allen wrench", used to assemble things like >>> knockdown furniture?...r [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I agree, it's clearly a driver. And the small hex-ended bits that you >can put into handles or power tools are called hex drivers. Not by me...they're bits...the handle or power tool is the driver....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > Nick filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Not by me...they're bits...the handle or power tool is the driver....r I'll let you have that. They're not wrenches, that's for sure. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >Prai Jei wrote: . >> Maria Conlon set the following eddies spiralling through the [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] >tool; he did use it, I think, in the "works" phrase, though, as did my >mother.) I'm with Prai Jei on how a "spanner in the works" arose. SignatureRegards, Chuck Riggs, An American who lives near Dublin, Ireland and usually spells in BrE > Three defs of "scupper": > > 1. noun: drain that allows water on the deck of a vessel to flow > overboard > 2. verb: wait in hiding to attack > 3. verb: put in a dangerous, disadvantageous, or difficult position This is my first encounter with meaning 3. If you hadn't printed this, I'd have taken any instance of meaning 3 to be an error for "scuttle". SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> Three defs of "scupper": >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > this, I'd have taken any instance of meaning 3 to be an error for > "scuttle". Those three definitions were from http://www.onelook.com/ Mirriam-Webster Online has less info. (It doesn't have the "wait in hiding" bit (unless I missed it). http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scupper Cambridge (online also) has only "sink" and "spoil." http://dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?dict=B&searchword=scupper And then there's Wiki: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scupper?rdfrom=Scupper And http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scupper?r=66 has three noun meanings and two verbs. "Scuttle," by the way, involves holes/sinking, tearing to shreds, or killing (plus some more meanings). Interesting word, which seems to go beyond the third "scupper." SignatureMaria Conlon |
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