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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2009Merry X-mas
to all of you from all of me :-) Thanx for good advice throughout the Year! And a happpppy New Year, too - I am celebrating X-mas in London tomorrow with my wife - I am looking forward to meeting the English again. "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > I am celebrating X-mas in London tomorrow Do you mean the great pagan celebration of the Unknown?  Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time continuum: > >> I am celebrating X-mas in London tomorrow > > Do you mean the great pagan celebration of the Unknown? Danes won't get that joke. In Danish an unknown quantity is written "ks". SignatureJames Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:21:02 +0100 from James Hogg <Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com>: > Danes won't get that joke. In Danish an unknown quantity is written > "ks". Very fitting, because "ks" is the sound of the Greek letter xi, which corresponds to Latin X but doesn't look anything like it. What does "ks" in Danish stand for? SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... > Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:21:02 +0100 from James Hogg > <Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com>: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Very fitting, because "ks" is the sound of the Greek letter xi, which > corresponds to Latin X but doesn't look anything like it. Ξξ > What does "ks" in Danish stand for? x http://www.andeby-fan.dk/samling/images/ekstra_1977-04.jpg SignatureJames >Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:21:02 +0100 from James Hogg ><Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com>: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >What does "ks" in Danish stand for? The name Xenia appears as such when transliterated into English from Greek, but when transliterated from Russian, appears as Ksenia. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Stan Brown set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time continuum: > Fri, 25 Dec 2009 12:21:02 +0100 from James Hogg > <Jas.Hogg@gOUTmail.com>: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Very fitting, because "ks" is the sound of the Greek letter xi, which > corresponds to Latin X but doesn't look anything like it. I would know something about the Greek letter xi - see below. Signatureξ:) Proud to be curly Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply James Hogg skrev: > >> I am celebrating X-mas in London tomorrow > > Do you mean the great pagan celebration of the Unknown? > Danes won't get that joke. In Danish an unknown quantity is written "ks". No, it's not. Actually "x" is misused in a way I don't really understand: Once people would say something like: We sold a number of Christmas trees this year. Today one may often hear: We sold x numbers of Christmas trees this year. It's quite common. PS. Maybe you made a joke that I didn't get, but somebody might be led into a false belief. SignatureBertel, Denmark > James Hogg skrev: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > PS. Maybe you made a joke that I didn't get, but somebody might > be led into a false belief. Heaven forfend! SignatureJames James Hogg: >> Danes won't get that joke. In Danish an unknown quantity is written "ks". Bertel Hansen: > No, it's not. Considering that "ks" in algebra normally means k times s, I am much relieved. > Actually "x" is misused in a way I don't really > understand: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It's quite common. This reminds me of two things. First, in expressing or solving a math problem, English-speakers might write "We sold x Christmas trees", meaning that x is the specific, presumably unknown, number of trees we sold. But in casual speech, I sometimes hear "We sold x number of Christmas trees" with the same meaning. I associate this usage with people who are not comfortable with math, and perhaps have trouble with the idea that a bare letter can be naturally substituted for a number. Note that the wording is almost the same as Bertel's example, but "number" is singular. Second, the expression "the nth degree" has a natural mathematical meaning: it refers to a specific, arbitrary degree. "nth" is the ordinal form of "n". The nth degree is one higher than the (n-1)st degree and one lower than the (n+1)st degree. If n = 6, the nth degree is the sixth degree. But in non-mathematical usage, "the nth degree" instead means "the ultimate degree". If someone says an encyclopedia classifies something "to the nth degree", for example, they're saying it is inconceivable that some newer encyclopedia will ever classify the things more finely. (There is one advantage to this usage, which is that it has gotten the word "nth" into dictionaries and therefore it can be legitimately played in a game of Scrabble.) By the way, I write "(n-1)st" above. This is the ordinal form of n-1. I wrote it with the ending "st" because in my experience it is pronounced "en minus first". I believe some people would pronounce it "en minus wonth" or "en minus wunth" instead; they would spell it "(n-1)th". Unfortunately Google ignores the "punctuation" marks and a search for "(n-1)st" produces his on things like "N 1st St" (North 1st Street), so I can't tell by its hit counts how common either usage is. > PS. Maybe you made a joke that I didn't get, but somebody might > be led into a false belief. If it is a joke, I don't get it either. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Some people open all the windows: msb@vex.net | wise wives welcome spring by moving the UNIX." -- ad, Housewife magazine, April 1941 My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >By the way, I write "(n-1)st" above. This is the ordinal form of n-1. >I wrote it with the ending "st" because in my experience it is pronounced [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >"(n-1)st" produces his on things like "N 1st St" (North 1st Street), >so I can't tell by its hit counts how common either usage is. In my experience, most people pronounce it "nth minus one"....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? Mark Brader: >> By the way, I write "(n-1)st" above. This is the ordinal form of n-1. >> I wrote it with the ending "st" because in my experience it is pronounced >> "en minus first". I believe some people would pronounce it "en minus >> wonth" or "en minus wunth" instead; they would spell it "(n-1)th". R.H. Draney: > In my experience, most people pronounce it "nth minus one". Eep! That's like saying "the Queen's of England throne"! (In other words, I say the ordinal suffix is a clitic that appears at the end of the whole expression it applies to, the same as the 's of the possessive.) By the way, just to confirm that my usage was the typical one "in my experience", I asked my wife what the ordinal form of n-1 was, as she was also a CS student at Waterloo. And yes, she also said "(n-1)st". SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "So *you* say." --Toddy Beamish msb@vex.net | (H.G. Wells, "The Man Who Could Work Miracles") My text in this article is in the public domain. Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:49:50 +0000 from Prai Jei <pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>: > "Arne H. Wilstrup" <ahw> set the following eddies spiralling through the > space-time continuum: > > > I am celebrating X-mas in London tomorrow > > Do you mean the great pagan celebration of the Unknown? Xmas or X-mas is originally a Christian abbreviation of Christmas, because X(*) is the first letter of "Christ" in Greek. (*) Well, Chi really, but it looks like an X to those who know only the Roman alphabet. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com Shikata ga nai... >Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:49:50 +0000 from Prai Jei ><pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >(*) Well, Chi really, but it looks like an X to those who know only >the Roman alphabet. And for suimilar reasons old church registers ofthen abbreviated the name Christopher as Xpofer or even Xfer, which sometimes causes discussions in genealogy newsgroups. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >> Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:49:50 +0000 from Prai Jei >> <pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > name Christopher as Xpofer or even Xfer, which sometimes causes > discussions in genealogy newsgroups. But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". "Xtal", therefore, means "crystal", and "Xanth", "chrysanthemum", etc. IIRC, I didn't properly grasp this till somebody in AUE beat it into my head. So far has this change gone that you may now see "Xtian" where I might have written "Xian" or "Xn". I wonder if there's some influence from "x" meaning "kiss". The expression "x number of" that Bertel noticed is very common in English. SignatureMike. >> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 08:22:26 -0500, Stan Brown >>> (*) Well, Chi really, but it looks like an X to those who know only >>> the Roman alphabet. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >might have written "Xian" or "Xn". I wonder if there's some influence >from "x" meaning "kiss". I must admit to never having seen Xtal (which I would be inclined to pronouce "extal") or Xanth (which I would be inclined to pronounce "ksanth"). Xanth does look vaguely familiar, as I believe there was a month or a season or something in the classical world called Xanthippus... though a quick Google informs me that it is the name of a mercenary Greek general who fought for the Carthaginians. I have seen Xtian and wondered about it. Like you I wrote Xian or more frequently Xn, while taking notes in lectures, I thought the essence of an abbreviation was to make it as short as possible while keeping it understandable, so the logic behind Xtian escapes me, as it seems an unnecessary lengthening. >The expression "x number of" that Bertel noticed is very common in >English. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Mike Lyle: >> But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an >> abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". >> "Xtal", therefore, means "crystal", and "Xanth", "chrysanthemum", etc. Steve Hayes: > I must admit to never having seen Xtal (which I would be inclined to pronouce > "extal") or Xanth (which I would be inclined to pronounce "ksanth"). Xanth > does look vaguely familiar, as I believe there was a month or a season or > something in the classical world called Xanthippus... though a quick Google > informs me that it is the name of a mercenary Greek general who fought for the > Carthaginians. "Xtal" is familiar to me, though mostly from seeing it in discussions like this, rather than in actual use. But I've certainly never seen "xanth", let alone "Xanth", for "chrysanthemum". If *I* saw "Xanth", I'd think of the famous series of novels -- none of which I've read -- by Piers Anthony. And, of course, I'd assume it was pronounced "zanth". SignatureMark Brader | "What a strange field. Studying beings instead of mathematics. Toronto | Could lead to recursive problems in logic." msb@vex.net | -- Robert L. Forward (The Flight of the Dragonfly) My text in this article is in the public domain. > Mike Lyle: >>> But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I'd think of the famous series of novels -- none of which I've read -- > by Piers Anthony. And, of course, I'd assume it was pronounced "zanth". I've seen Xtal many times in the wild, reading electronics hobby magazines and the like in the 1970s. I've read some of the Xanth books, pronouncing it in my head as Zanth. With hindsight I'm not sure why I read more than part of one of them. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >> "Xtal" is familiar to me, though mostly from seeing it in discussions >> like this, rather than in actual use. But I've certainly never seen [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've seen Xtal many times in the wild, reading electronics hobby > magazines and the like in the 1970s. I'm reasonably certain I first saw Xtal in 1940s electronics magazines that my father had saved. > I've read some of the Xanth books, pronouncing it in my head as > Zanth. With hindsight I'm not sure why I read more than part of one of > them. No, no, that's the wrong word order. When talking about Piers Anthony's books, the standard wording is "I'm not sure why I read more than part one of them". He's actually a tolerably good writer if you can ignore his bad habit of writing series. If you stick to the basic SF rule "Never bother reading the sequel" [1] it works out pretty well. [1] This applies to everyone's novels, not just Anthony's. Even the endless "Dune" story is pretty good if you throw away everything except the first book. And even Philip Jose Farmer was a good writer before he discovered the Riverworld. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> "Xtal" is familiar to me, though mostly from seeing it in discussions >>> like this, rather than in actual use. But I've certainly never seen [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the first book. And even Philip Jose Farmer was a good writer before he > discovered the Riverworld. I'm reading James Blish's "Cities in Flight" tetralogy at the moment. I've made it through the two prequels and am part way through the first. Only the third one left. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk > But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an > abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > might have written "Xian" or "Xn". I wonder if there's some influence > from "x" meaning "kiss". An X is a cross. The prefix "trans" means "cross", hence Xportation, Xfer, Xformer, etc. SignatureJohn Varela Trade NEWlamps for OLDlamps for email >> But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an >> abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > An X is a cross. The prefix "trans" means "cross", hence Xportation, > Xfer, Xformer, etc. Are you suggesting we have just been celebrating Transmas(s)? SignatureRob Bannister >> But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an >> abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > An X is a cross. The prefix "trans" means "cross", hence Xportation, > Xfer, Xformer, etc. I have no suitable references for the following assertion. The impression I have, however, is that in the electrical engineering community "Xtal" is older than the "trans" abbreviations like "Xmitter". My memory also tells me that all of the "X" abbreviations in the electrical engineering world come from the radio people. Perhaps even the radio hams, because abbreviations are especially valuable when you're using Morse code. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter Moylan filted: >>> But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an >>> abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >the radio hams, because abbreviations are especially valuable when >you're using Morse code. I've used the letter X in programming to stand for "cross", "trans" (both in radio-friendly contexts like "xmission" and others like "xaction"), and "index"...I don't remember there ever being any confusion as a result....r SignatureA pessimist sees the glass as half empty. An optometrist asks whether you see the glass more full like this?...or like this? > But, I suppose interestingly, the public at large think "X" is an > abbreviation not for the word "Christ", but for the sound "kriss". > "Xtal", therefore, means "crystal", and "Xanth", "chrysanthemum", etc. > IIRC, I didn't properly grasp this till somebody in AUE beat it into my > head. So far has this change gone that you may now see "Xtian" where I > might have written "Xian" or "Xn". Not all that recent. On Google Books, I see the will of Griffith Hugh that begins In the Name of God Amen the twelth day of August In the Yeare of Our Lord God 1670 I Griffith Hugh of the P'ish of Nantgwnlle within the Cond of Cardigan & within the Diocesse of Snt Davids being sicke in body but of good & perfect memory laude & praise be given to the Allmightie God my maker & redeemer doe hereby make this to be my last will & testament & doe revoake all former Wills in manner & forme following Imprimis I doe comend my soule to the hands of the Allmighty god, & my body to be buried in Xtian buriall. [I think I got the spelling right, and yes he did spell it both "Allmightie" and "Allmighty" in the same paragraph.] There are another 11 in the first half of the eighteenth century. I don't see any hits for "Xian" back then that appear to be short for "Christian". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |People think it must be fun to be a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |super genius, but they don't Palo Alto, CA 94304 |realize how hard it is to put up |with all the idiots in the world. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Fri, 25 Dec 2009 10:49:50 +0000 from Prai Jei > <pvstownsend.zyx.abc@ntlworld.com>: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > (*) Well, Chi really, but it looks like an X to those who know only > the Roman alphabet. What has Christ got to do with Xmas? Everybody knows we are celebrating the way Coca Cola gave birth to Santa. SignatureRob Bannister |
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